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(Irish) Socialism & Marxism versus the (Irish) Catholic Church & Jack Murphy TD
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+1 on timing but thats my opinion and I am in to my lore.
JRG - whats your take on this.There was no real emnity between the left and the Catholic Church until 1930
During the 1920s the Catholic church said very little on communism. But in late 1929, Stalin imposed severe limits on the toleration of religion in Russia. Pope Pius XI retaliated in 1930, by virtually excommunicating communists, and the Catholic press and the hierarchy in Ireland became openly hostile to any sympathy with communism or Russia.
This was bad timing for Moscow's Irish policy. The ECCI had had to wait until Larkin broke with the CI in 1929 before sending a commission to Ireland to re-build a cp. As membership of the communist organization - the RWGs - increased, so too did clerical reaction. IRA-communist relations remained friendly and An Phoblacht opposed church policy until 1933, when an intense anti-communist campaign caused the IRA to decide that the communists were more trouble than they were worth. From February 1933 onwards, the army council attempted to neutralise communist influences within the IRA. When the RWG proceeded to form the second CPI in June 1933, and the Daily Express alleged that 20% of CPI members were IRA volunteers, the army council formally condemned communism for its 'denial of God and active hostility to religion'. The IRA leadership did not see this as a shift to the right. An Phoblacht subsequently devoted more attention to the social question and made a stronger appeal to the Labour movement. But it was the communists that the IRA left wanted to work with.
http://www.iol.ie/~rjtechne/century1...s/repcon34.htm
The 1932 Eucharistic Congress had around 1 million people come to Dublin and democracy had asserted itself in the peoples minds over a decade.0 -
I agree in general although I would argue nationalism did not become more prevelent during the war of independence and that the potential for socialist revolution existed right up until the defeat of the Munster Soviets in mid-1922. Certainly the leadership of the nationalist movement were very concerned about the potential of the nationalist movement being ripped apart as late as the end of 1921.jonniebgood1 wrote: »The period I refer to is specifically after the civil war, after 1923. If I speculate I would say after 1916 until well into the war of independence there was a possibility of a workers revolution rather than a nationalist one or at least some type of combination. I base this on the number of strikes and actions by workers groups and also the movements in that direction in other countries in Europe and particularly Russia. Was'nt one of Sean O'Caseys plays based on the premise that the people backed the wrong revolution in the 1916 rising (i.e. nationalist instead of socialist). As the war of independence progressed for some reason nationalism did become more prevelent, possibly a choice by the leaders. After 1922 and particularly after the civil war the will of the people did not exist to achieve any type of socialist or syndicalist type of revolution. The Ardnacrusha strike was in this period.
well this is what I have - they relate to Limerickjonniebgood1 wrote: »The timing is important IMO.
August 1916 Rev. Devane attended a Trades Council meeting to make sure that the Council promote a series of lectures that would argue that 'their (the workers) own greatest interests' lie in their religion and country and not foreign ideologies. (Limerick Leader 30 Aug 1916)
In October, of Rev. Fr. Laurence outlined their concerns when he commented that ‘although socialism was not yet generally assertive in Ireland, it was, nevertheless, one of the most vital dangers of our age’. Worried about the establishments attitude he went on to call for ‘determined and definite efforts…to make our public bodies and our wealthy Catholics realise and conscientiously discharge the duties of Christian Social Reform’ (Limerick Leader, 16 October 1916).
The series of lectures proposed by Fr. Devane and pushed throughout the city by the Catholic hierarchy took place in late January and February 1917. Professor Smiddy warned that ‘the spirit of syndicalism had lately crept into labour struggles…and that matter would have to be dealt with after the war’. Professor Rahilly ‘strongly advocated the organisation of Protestant and Catholic workers in two distinct bodies…and pleaded for the establishment of a Catholic Social League to investigate social conditions’ (Limerick Leader, 5 & 19 February 1917)
By May 1917 the Catholic hierarchy including Bishop O’Dwyer, were directly intervening in strikes in an effort to undermine the leftward trajectory of workers in the city. (Limerick Leader, 30 May 1917)
On 14 October 1917 at the Catholic Truth Society Conference, Rev. Devane stated that ‘ a cyclone of revolutionary ideas passing over the world shaking governments and thrones’. He asked ‘would the new Irish Labour Party’…be…’guided by sane Catholic principles or would they shape their programme from irreligious Social Democrats of the Continent’. Devane went on to argued for ‘the necessity to have such an organisation as the Catholic Social League recently established in Cork’. (Limerick Leader, 15 October 1917).
On 22 March 1918, Rev. Devane attended the fortnightly meeting of the Trades Council to promote the establishment of a conciliation board with the Council leaders responding that the ‘scheme had already been sanctioned by the Council and was awaiting the sanction of the employers’…for…’fully six months’ (Limerick Leader, 23 March 1918). This move was specifically designed to undermine the growing influence of the Marxist ITGWU industrial organisers in Limerick.
By May 1918 the local hierarchy were in a panic. 15,000 people attended a Mayday demonstration in the Markets Field. Resolutions were passed paying tribute to ‘our Russian comrades who have waged a magnificent struggle for their social and political emancipation’. Rev. Dr. Fogarty, in his sermon, stated ‘it is not the capitalist with his often ill-gotten fortune, that is great in her (i.e. Limerick’s) eyes, but the man rich in what St. Paul calls “the excelling knowledge of Our Lord Jesus Christ”’. (Limerick Leader, 26 June 1918). Members of the clergy, in promoting Catholicism, had tried to tap into the developing attitudes of the Limerick working class.
Three weeks before the Limerick ‘Soviet’ Rev. Fr. Murphy gave the lenten lecture in the Augustinian Church on the ‘Legitimacy of Private Profit’ again attacking socialism. (Limerick Leader, 28 March 1919)
After the ‘Soviet', the clergy condemned the leadership and stated that ‘neither his Lordship nor the clergy were consulted before the strike was declared, and they were totally opposed to its continuance’. (Jim Kemmy, ‘The Limerick Soviet’, Saothar, No.2, 1976, p. 51).
By the end of December 1919 the Catholic Hierarchy, feeling the need to combat the impact of the ideas of socialism, initiated a series of lectures, given by Rev. Fr. Murphy and other clergy in the Augustinian Church. The Limerick Leader, describing the lectures as a ‘Searching Analysis of a Dangerous Theory’, transcribed them in their entirety (Limerick Leader, 5 December 1919).
I would have to fish out my notes from the attic but from recollection there was a constant stream of preaching from the pulpits in Limerick on the evils of socialism right throughout the 1920's - mainly linked to the Arch Confraternity. This may have been localised and a hang over from the major influence that the ITGWU Marxists had in the city up to 1922. There were times, like during the Ardnacrusha strike that the hierarchy had to thread carefully - but once the issue subsided they would lay into the labour movement for its actions.JRG - whats your take on this.0 -
Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
I would have to fish out my notes from the attic but from recollection there was a constant stream of preaching from the pulpits in Limerick on the evils of socialism right throughout the 1920's - mainly linked to the Arch Confraternity. This may have been localised and a hang over from the major influence that the ITGWU Marxists had in the city up to 1922. There were times, like during the Ardnacrusha strike that the hierarchy had to thread carefully - but once the issue subsided they would lay into the labour movement for its actions.
Was there not an IRA/Marxist Alliance, as I recall some major issues were on the long finger until post independence ?
What were the proposals concerning things like private property and farm ownership ?
Russia was Marxist and had farm collectivisation and the Red Terror started there. ( I cant remember).
Limerick had the only Soviets outside Russia , so what type of news filtered thru would no doubt have influenced supporters and opponents.
I would love to hear lots more on the Limerick Soviet JRG - no doubt a cracking story.
Were their special conditions in Limerick that caused it to happen ?0 -
Sorry for the dealy in getting back
No IRA/Marxist Alliance - a small number of Marxists were involved with the IRA but there was relatively little cross-over between IRA and labour movement activistsWas there not an IRA/Marxist Alliance, as I recall some major issues were on the long finger until post independence ?
Little was written down in programmatic format - but there was widespread occupation of estates during this period, opposed by the SF leadership, that caused massive problems for the republican movement.What were the proposals concerning things like private property and farm ownership ?
Collectivisation started in Russia in 1929 by Stalin in response to his policies allowing the Kulaks to become too powwerful.Russia was Marxist and had farm collectivisation and the Red Terror started there. ( I cant remember).
Not true - there were dozens of soviets in Ireland during this period and many on a much larger scale than Limerick right around EuropeLimerick had the only Soviets outside Russia , so what type of news filtered thru would no doubt have influenced supporters and opponents.
Cahill's book is here -I would love to hear lots more on the Limerick Soviet JRG - no doubt a cracking story.
http://www.limericksoviet.com/
It gives a good narrative of the events but I would have significant disagreements with some of his analysis
Nope - like I said above, there were dozens of soviets in Ireland during this period. Right throughout 1918-1922 there was a significant potential for socialist revolution.Were their special conditions in Limerick that caused it to happen ?0 -
Jolly Red Giant wrote: »Sorry for the dealy in getting back
No IRA/Marxist Alliance - a small number of Marxists were involved with the IRA but there was relatively little cross-over between IRA and labour movement activists
You are fine. Its something I know little about and some of the CPI histories , just like autobiographies or party political histories can be a bit suspect.
I am interested in facts and lore of the era and have found plenty of instances where the popular history is just plain wrong so I am open minded.
Post Civil war didn't the "IRA" get cosy with the CPI ,
Peader O'Donnell ? and in the 1930's head off to Spain.
The idea is sometimes floated that the remnants tried to reivent itself politically .Little was written down in programmatic format - but there was widespread occupation of estates during this period, opposed by the SF leadership, that caused massive problems for the republican movement.
Do you have any more on the occupation of estates.
I know there were strikes, the Gore-Booths estate had a strike c 1920 by farm workersCollectivisation started in Russia in 1929 by Stalin in response to his policies allowing the Kulaks to become too powwerful.
OKNot true - there were dozens of soviets in Ireland during this period and many on a much larger scale than Limerick right around Europe
Thats interesting, can you elaborate.Cahill's book is here -
http://www.limericksoviet.com/
It gives a good narrative of the events but I would have significant disagreements with some of his analysis
I have seen this before and I do not know enough to be able to judge it.Nope - like I said above, there were dozens of soviets in Ireland during this period. Right throughout 1918-1922 there was a significant potential for socialist revolution.
Names and locations would be great.0 -
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Sections of it yes - it partly prompted the FF split in 1926. By the time O'Donnell and Gilmore split to establish the Republican Congress in 1934 the schism was complete. The CPI was founded in 1921 (really as nothing more than a republican split from the SPI) and dissolved in 1924. The CPI wasn't re-established again until 1933 (from the Revolutionary Workers Group)Post Civil war didn't the "IRA" get cosy with the CPI ,
Peader O'Donnell ? and in the 1930's head off to Spain.
The Dáil Ministry for Home Affairs described the situation as ‘a grave danger threatening the foundations of the Republic’ and went on to say:Do you have any more on the occupation of estates.
‘1920 was no ordinary outbreak…an immense rise in the value of land and farm products threw into more vivid relief than ever before the high profits of ranchers, and the hopeless outlook of the landless men and uneconomic holders…All this was a grave menace to the Republic. The mind of the people was being diverted from the struggle for freedom by a class war, and there was every likelihood that this class war might be carried into the ranks of the republican army itself which was drawn in the main from the agricultural population and was largely officered by farmer’s sons… ’
(Ministry for Home Affairs, The Constructive Work of Dáil Eireann, No.1, The National Police and Courts of Justice, (Dublin, 1921), p. 10 & p.12.)
I have read that over 400 estates were occupied and in most cases the IRA stepped in to suppress the occupations. Something that requires extensive research.
For Europe -Thats interesting, can you elaborate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_Revolution_of_1918
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Hungarian_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_rosso
Again just scratching the surface.
Belfast Engineering Strike (effectively a soviet)Names and locations would be great.
Limerick Soviet
Cork Harbour,
North Cork Railways
Knocklong
Bruree
Castleconnell
Tipperary
Rathmines
The Rotunda
Killarney
Ballinacourtie,
Drogheda Iron Foundry,
Waterford Gas,
Mines at Arigna and Ballingarry
Broadford
Munster Soviets in 1922 (in excess of 100 workplaces and in a large number of cases the surrounding towns and villages as well)
Flour mills in Cork,
Sir John Kean's farm in Cappoquin,
Monaghan asylum
Several in Co. Kildare in 1922
This is only scratching the surface. I do have a more extensive list saved somewhere but can't find it at the moment. A comprehensive list has never been compiled – it would require extensive research into local newspaper reports, local archives etc.0 -
OK, there was industrial unrest but was that sort of targeted at the departing British as opposed to the new State.
This Gilmore chap . Is he related to the Eamonn ?0 -
OK, there was industrial unrest but was that sort of targeted at the departing British as opposed to the new State.
What makes you think that it was unrest at the British?
Conditions would have been grim and I don't see how someone in a tough working environment would be anti- British because of the conditions. Perhaps anti- ruling class would mean some association with anti- Britishness as they may have been seen as the establishment.0 -
Nope - in fact an awful lot of it was targeted at the business and farming sectors controlled by prominent SF members - with the odd unionist like the Cleeve brothers thrown in. Interestingly enough the unionists came crying to the IRA to break the strikes (which in many cases they duly did).OK, there was industrial unrest but was that sort of targeted at the departing British as opposed to the new State.
Nope - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_GilmoreThis Gilmore chap . Is he related to the Eamonn ?0 -
Jolly Red Giant wrote: »Interestingly enough the unionists came crying to the IRA to break the strikes (which in many cases they duly did).
It is hard to fathom where the break came, from the type of social rebellion that Connolly wanted to the nationalistic movement that succeeded. All the signatories of the 1916 proclamation had been involved in the strikers side during the 1913 lockout but less than 10 years later the IRA was breaking strikes.0 -
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