Pay, initial salary and negototiation

Stheno

Prompted by the job you love thread, I'm wondering how many women on here have felt it's ok to negotiate on salary in a new role or ask for a pay rise in a role?

Have you done it and was it successful?

Did you decide not to do it preferring not to?

Personally I've done it both at interview/offer stage and whilst in roles, I have to say it generally pays off (pardon the non intended pun).

Lots of studies suggest that from gradual level onwards women have lower expectations of salary, or are less likely to negotiate/ask for a payrise then men, any thoughts as to why from your perspective?

Acoshla

This is sad but I've never been in a job long enough or been in one that was important enough to negotiate or ask for a pay rise, just general lowly retail jobs.

Kimia

I am an absolute fiend when it comes to work and am seriously ambitious. I have negotiated pay rises and salary and would have no problem doing it again. I would never ever bow to a manager or a company who thought I deserved less money because of my gender and if I was in that position I would walk.

I'm in a role where my contribution to the company is highly measurable too so I make sure that I am an employee that they want/need to keep.

pampootie

I've never asked anything about salary at a first interview stage. At a second interview though or at a job offer I would immediately confirm salary and negotiate if I thought it was too low. I have no problem asking for what I think I'm worth. I left my last job over salary mainly -it was relatively low paid and all along I was told there was no hope of a raise-once I handed in my notice suddenly there was a raise offered. I don't want to say how much but it was 40% of what I was already on. Tbh this pissed me off majorly -I worked very, very hard for them and completely believed their line that there was no money in the coffers. It really taught me though that business is business and you have to stand up for yourself or risk getting walked on. Admittedly the old company was family run, which sometimes made it hard to be mrs iron knickers about things, and my current company is a larger chain, which is easier because you're speaking to someone whose job is to sort this stuff, but still i think i've learned you have to stand firm in these things.

/end random, wine fuelled selection of thoughts

LittleBook

Yes, definitely ... even moreso if they've come to me (head-hunter/agent).

My job isn't rocket science but I work in an industry that is a little specialised which gives me a level of bargaining power and my experience in the industry (working for the market leader) is worth more than my skills.

I've also negotiated for more responsibility. It's easy to get more work thrown at you but obtaining a new job title or a new level of responsibility can be just as hard as getting more money and can be infinitely more valuable in the long-term.

I now earn the same as my senior who is a few years younger than me. My explanation for this is that while I worked continuously while my daughter was younger, I "coasted" for a while, happy with the 9 to 5, little or no travelling and (for a period of time) worked 4 days per week.

But my daughter grew up and once the negotiations into my new department opened up, I was back to the higher expectations. I couldn't have my bosses job but I could have the salary.

pampootie wrote: »

I left my last job over salary mainly -it was relatively low paid and all along I was told there was no hope of a raise-once I handed in my notice suddenly there was a raise offered. I don't want to say how much but it was 40% of what I was already on. Tbh this pissed me off majorly -I worked very, very hard for them and completely believed their line that there was no money in the coffers. It really taught me though that business is business and you have to stand up for yourself or risk getting walked on. Admittedly the old company was family run

No company will pay you more than they can get away with, it'd be stupid to do so. You (not you personally ) are a commodity. It's not personal, although I know in small family-run companies it can be made to feel so.

You also have to take into account who you're negotiating with. Sometimes a large company can be less flexible than a small company because they have pay scales and more people to compare you with.

But you can make strides in a small company that would take you years in a larger one but would look just as good on a CV.

pampootie wrote: »

and my current company is a larger chain, which is easier because you're speaking to someone whose job is to sort this stuff, but still i think i've learned you have to stand firm in these things.

I'm not saying you don't know this but it's worth pointing out because I'm amazed at the number of people who don't fully realise this ... Human Resources does not work for you, it works for the company.

My best friend is the Human Resources manager for a huge company and she works her ass off for the people she's responsible for. But at the end of the day, when push comes to shove, she will be the person telling them they can't have a pay rise, they have to take a pay cut or they are being made redundant.

Stheno wrote: »

Lots of studies suggest that from gradual level onwards women have lower expectations of salary, or are less likely to negotiate/ask for a payrise then men, any thoughts as to why from your perspective?

This survey suggests that while female graduates expect lower salaries, their expectations might be more realistic.

Men versus women – stereotypes and clichés are confirmed
The favourite employer for men studying business is Google (no. 1), while for women it is L’Oréal (no.1). The employer that is equally attractive, however, for both business men and women is Apple (no. 2). Yet differences in desired choice of employers are highly noticeable between certain industry sectors. The research shows that the Fast Moving Consumer Goods (FMCG) industry is generally perceived as being more attractive for women, whereas men prefer the automotive and banking sectors.

FMCG more appealing to women
Companies like L’Oréal, for example, are first choice for female students studying business, whereas their male counterparts rank the company at 39. Similarly, there is a difference of 23 positions for Procter & Gamble (no. 5 for females and no.28 for males), 22 places for Nestlé (no. 5 for females and no. 29 for males) and 27 places for Unilever (no.10 for women and no. 37 for men).

Men like cars and banks
All the car manufacturers and especially the premium brands like Porsche, Ferrari, Daimler/Mercedes-Benz appeal more to male than to female engineers. Interestingly, the biggest difference in rankings was with Daimler/Mercedes-Benz – ranked 26 for men and 65 for women. Also, Volkswagen appeals more to men – ranked 17 for men versus 55 for women.

The banks typically appeal more to men than women too. For business students the differences in ranking positions between men and women are: -26 places for Morgan Stanley, -20 places for Deutsche Bank, -19 places for Goldman Sachs, and -15 places for J.P. Morgan.

General differences in career aspirations
To be a leader or manager of people (34% of men vs. 22% of women) and a technical or functional expert (22% of men vs. 14% of women) were more important to men, whereas women gave more importance to secure employment (36% of women vs. 26% of men) and to be dedicated to a cause or serve a greater good (32% of women vs. 23% of men). The prestige of working for a great company is more important for men (31% of men vs. 24% of women), whereas high ethical standards is more important for women (30% of women versus 20% of men).

It is a fact that the salary gap between men and women is still quite high in most countries. Research indicates that women, studying at the top European schools, have an annual salary expectation that is on average €8,600 lower (representing a 21% difference) than what men look forward to earning. Closing the gender divide must start with educating Europe’s female graduates to demand much more.

But the article reporting the survey in The Economist (can't find the breakdown in the survey) states that male graduates expect a starting salary of €40,898. And this is a 2011 survey.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/graduate-salary-expectations

Fluorescence

LittleBook wrote: »

But the article reporting the survey in The Economist (can't find the breakdown in the survey) states that male graduates expect a starting salary of €40,898. And this is a 2011 survey.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/graduate-salary-expectations

What?? :eek: What kind of graduate expects that for a starting salary? They're lucky if they can even get work experience out of college, let alone a paying job of €40 grand.

LittleBook

fluorescence wrote: »

What?? :eek: What kind of graduate expects that for a starting salary? They're lucky if they can even get work experience out of college, let alone a paying job of €40 grand.

Exactly. If it was a survey from 2007/2008, I could understand the optimism but it's named as being 2011.

Ophiopogon

€40,000 as a startign salary :eek: god I'd love to see their faces when they find out the truth.

I think it will be difficult for some with an overinflated self worth (from celtic tiger years) to know what their salary should be.

I've been very lucky as I've always been offered what my I should be due to experience/qualifications and also have had some great bosses who gave me pay rises without being asked.

The only thing I've had to negiotiate were terms but I don't think I would have a prob looking for higher pay if I really felt it was required.

Also, I don't really understand why you wouldn't ask about salary in a interview, even if you don't intend to negototiate you should always know what its going to be.

Well this is an EU average, and in countries with much higher tax rates than us maybe it makes more sense? And look at the Swiss bar, it's over 60k, throwing up the average a lot.
It also says "studying in the top European institutions" so it's a bit different to your average graduate, I suppose.

Oh right, on topic
Well I "negotiated" by turning down an initial offer so I started off on a higher salary than otherwise. I know the men didn't...

gargleblaster

Yes I've negotiated for raises, and for higher raises due to having my responsibilities expanded. I've also negotiated for a higher starting salary, not during the interview but after the offer was made. I rejected it and stated that the salary was the reason, with positive results.

meganj

I've never negotiated for a pay rise, or a better wage. In fact I almost talked myself out of a pay increase in a new job. Last job was at 24 p/a and this one was more then that and I didn't read the wages section and started going on and on about how I'd love to earn more then my previous salary maybe at 25 or 26, they pointed out that this one was well above that and asked was I still looking for 25/26 needless to say I nearly bit their hand off.

As for the other question of why do women have lower expectations regarding salary, I did read (god help me I fear it was in cosmo) that women who have children, or take a career break, are often sort of embarrassed (not that they should be) and feel that somehow they are worth less then their male counterparts.

My mother who holds a pretty high powered job, informs me that the men who take two to three years off travelling still think they deserve to be paid more then the offering price, while when she's interviewing women who have had children they always start with this 'I know i've been out of the workforce for X and I'm willing to work my way back up the ladder' even though they're still just as qualified as everyone else sitting out in the waiting room.

It's just one of those things that we do, always selling ourselves short, never realising that we are clearly the superior sex

When asked your expected salary in an interview I usually put it a good few grand over what my last wage was. I also have negotiated after the offer. In my current position I have also secured myself two pay increases as they were well deserved.

Pity I still earn a pretty low wage!

Stheno

meganj wrote: »

My mother who holds a pretty high powered job, informs me that the men who take two to three years off travelling still think they deserve to be paid more then the offering price, while when she's interviewing women who have had children they always start with this 'I know i've been out of the workforce for X and I'm willing to work my way back up the ladder' even though they're still just as qualified as everyone else sitting out in the waiting room.

Qualified yes, but experienced? What experience gain have the guys gotten while the women have been on maternity leave?

And tbh it's a fair statement, I've worked in IT for years, and if I had taken maternity leave in some of my roles I'd have come back to an alternative environment to what I left, so while qualifications are important, experience tends to count for more for a lot of employers. I worked as a contractor for a few years, nine months was a world of difference, and that additional experience I got was important.

I'd say it's more women acknowledging lack of recent experience (in my industry) as the reason for them being more willing to downside themselves.

Nightwish

I've never been able to negotiate a salary as it is determined by the Government, being the public sector. Despite being a graduate, it will take me another 7 years to earn the average industrial wage if I stay in the post I am in, which is likely as there are no jobs in my area of so-called expertise! What I am earning now is NOT what I imagined I would be getting 5 years after graduating.

The Sweeper

Starla_o0 wrote: »

When asked your expected salary in an interview I usually put it a good few grand over what my last wage was.

I won't put myself in a position of answering what my expected salary is in an interview. Before I apply for a job, I pick up the phone and have a discussion with the HR department / recruiter regarding the position, the full PD, clarify any prerequisites they've requested, and ask about how long they expect the selection and interview process to take after the closing date, and request information on the salary bracket attached to the position.

There is always a salary range attached to a position. Nobody creates and advertises a position with no budget to fill it. They have a budget, and they'll be only feckin delighted if they ask you what salary you expect and you pick something lower than they've budgeted. It's a mug's game, negotiating salary in an interview with no prior indication of range.

I won't apply for the job unless the salary is what I want, or close to what I want and the job is interesting and I can hope to negotiate upwards. It's a waste of my time and of theirs, me putting time and effort into a job application and they interviewing me only to discover the salary is nowhere near where I want it to be.

I will have a general idea of what the job should pay given the title, the industry and so on. If it's something formal like healthcare or government, there are 'grades' that salaries fall into and those grades dictate the start and end salary bracket, which take the guesswork and horse trading out of it.

I don't work for the love, so damn sure I want to know about the money.

Xiney

I managed to get a 10% raise at one job, because I had tried to leave (and actually did) but they needed me to come back and so I said I would.... for more money.

At this job I didn't negotiate at interview stage because a) the starting range was already higher than other jobs I was applying to b) they gave me somewhere near the top of the starting range and c) I really really wanted to do the job and the money was really not as important.


With that said, both these things happened in Canada. I never got lucky enough to negotiate salary in Ireland.

Pythia

I've negotiated my salary a number of times. In the last 4 years I've increased it more than 70%. You've got to play hard ball and be prepared to leave if you can't get what you want. Luckily I work in areas which are still hiring and in demand so I can afford to take that tact.