Should unmarried fathers have equal rights??

The Corinthian

illumi wrote: »

I don't think its new that women run and leave the country to deny fathers their kids.

They don't need to at present, but if that's what it took, I've no doubt they would. After all, there's no shortage of women who are happy to deny fathers their kids and go to great lengths to do so.

Indeed, to do so would not even require that they want to deny fathers their kids, but deny fathers rights to their kids. Mother goes abroad, gives birth and sees to it that the father cannot sign. Returns to Ireland and she is now legally sole guardian.

Its something I wouldnt do, nor promote but Ireland simply doesn't have the power to lay down their law in other countries.

I've already pointed out repeatedly that it has nothing to do with laying down Irish law in other countries. Seriously, it's not that complicated!

the_syco

illumi wrote: »

My partner and me are expecting our first child. he did get upset with me when i said i will sign the forms for guardianship only. I also said that he can have access to our child whenever he wants. Even if we break up, this will still be what I want for our child. I hope he comes around.

I'd say your partner is upset about the fact that you're already planning the breakup before it has happened.

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

They don't need to at present, but if that's what it took, I've no doubt they would. After all, there's no shortage of women who are happy to deny fathers their kids and go to great lengths to do so.

Indeed, to do so would not even require that they want to deny fathers their kids, but deny fathers rights to their kids. Mother goes abroad, gives birth and sees to it that the father cannot sign. Returns to Ireland and she is now legally sole guardian.

I've already pointed out repeatedly that it has nothing to do with laying down Irish law in other countries. Seriously, it's not that complicated!

That is still a separate issue and no excuse for failing to legislate to allow unmarried father's of children born in Ireland equal status with the child's mother.

Agreed, at the moment the law enables some women to 'deny fathers their kids' and the onus is on the man to seek legal action.
However - the fact that the law currently forces men to take legal action just to gain legal recognition even when the child's mother is in agreement is ridiculous. Dealing with this basic issue should be addressed as a matter of priority.

The Corinthian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is still a separate issue and no excuse for failing to legislate to allow unmarried father's of children born in Ireland equal status with the child's mother.

I never suggested it should. I am simply pointing out that if one makes guardianship dependant on signing the birth cert, this is what will happen. As such it should be a registrar, separate to the birth cert to avoid such abuses and cases. But by all means stipulating that the birth cert should also be signed if the child is born in the state.

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

They don't need to at present, but if that's what it took, I've no doubt they would.

They already do at present though, so its really nothing new.

http://www.mccarthy.ie/guardianship-unmarried-fathers/ <---- mother leaves ireland to deny good father his kids.

which could have been simply avoided by giving automatic guardianship after filling in the fathers details on the birth-cert.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I've already pointed out repeatedly that it has nothing to do with laying down Irish law in other countries. Seriously, it's not that complicated!

And I've already pointed out that I'm debating about changes to the constitutional rights of unmarried fathers in Ireland.
Which can simply be fixed for the majority of unmarried fathers by giving them automatic Guardianship after their details are on the birth certificate. I am sure it would pass after been put to a referendum.

the_syco wrote: »

I'd say your partner is upset about the fact that you're already planning the breakup before it has happened.

LOL No need to get too personal. After a 6 year relationship I don't see that happening.

The Corinthian

illumi wrote: »

which could have been simply avoided by giving automatic guardianship after filling in the fathers details on the birth-cert.

She can still leave before the birth if she wants to ensure she wants sole rights and return at her pleasure. So it avoids nothing.

And I've already pointed out that I'm debating about changes to the constitutional rights of unmarried fathers in Ireland.

Do you actually know what the constitutional rights of unmarried fathers in Ireland are? If they're even mentioned or any legislation would require a change in the constitution to be legal?

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

She can still leave before the birth if she wants to ensure she wants sole rights and return at her pleasure. So it avoids nothing.

She left way after the birth.
And yes if both unmarried parents get equal rights under the constitution, the mothers could run before giving birth, deny ever having slept with the father, or claiming they had so many strangers in their bed they dont know the father. A one night stand while on holiday. seriously.
you seem to paint everything so black.

There will always be loopholes in laws. Not everyone can be protected.
The cases you talk of are minorities. And Im not saying they are not important.
But what about the majority of unmarried fathers "now" in Ireland who could be protected through a simple little change in our constitution.

What is your solution to unmarried fathers rights in Ireland as they don't really have any at the moment.
Ive read through so many of your posts and you never seem to give a solution after battering someone else solutions with scenarios that would rarely happen, but no solutions.

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

She can still leave before the birth if she wants to ensure she wants sole rights and return at her pleasure. So it avoids nothing.

Yes. She could - but short of banning pregnant women from leaving the country there is nothing any piece of legislation can do to prevent this. In the same way a father cannot be prevented from leaving the country to avoid paying maintenance.

If a woman was to do this and return - the father of the child would still have the option of going to court, establishing paternity and seek joint guardianship/access/ joint custody. Exactly as they have the option of doing now.

The Corinthian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes. She could - but short of banning pregnant women from leaving the country there is nothing any piece of legislation can do to prevent this. In the same way a father cannot be prevented from leaving the country to avoid paying maintenance.

No. Please read again what I've written. This type of loophole can only exist if you tie guardianship into the birth cert, as then it can be circumvented in another jurisdiction. If you tie guardianship into a separate registry, then the loophole is closed off.

If a woman was to do this and return - the father of the child would still have the option of going to court, establishing paternity and seek joint guardianship/access/ joint custody. Exactly as they have the option of doing now.

So what you're suggesting is not really a reform of the system then? I'm all right Jack?

The Corinthian

illumi wrote: »

There will always be loopholes in laws. Not everyone can be protected.

Sure, but you don't intentionally leave loopholes when you spot them.

What is your solution to unmarried fathers rights in Ireland as they don't really have any at the moment.

I've repeatedly given my opinion on this in previous posts. Rights, automatic or not, are in reality not as important as the enforcement of them. I even pointed to what I think needs to be done to rectify it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

laoch na mona

yes they should

illumi

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I've tried that. But not knowing where he lives they told me it was a hopeless case. But that's so long ago it doesn't matter now. I've moved on, the kids have moved on.

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sure, but you don't intentionally leave loopholes when you spot them.

I've repeatedly given my opinion on this in previous posts. Rights, automatic or not, are in reality not as important as the enforcement of them. I even pointed to what I think needs to be done to rectify it.

But some loopholes cannot be avoided, even if spotted.
Changes are made with tiny steps. The best here the birth cert entry. Big changes don't happen worldwide over-night.
If one country gives fathers automatic guardianship many countries would follow. Even if it takes time. And this would help the majority of unmarried fathers cases.

The Corinthian

illumi wrote: »

But some loopholes cannot be avoided, even if spotted.

I told you how it can be easily avoided, FFS!

It sounds almost as if you don't want this loophole closed.

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

No. Please read again what I've written. This type of loophole can only exist if you tie guardianship into the birth cert, as then it can be circumvented in another jurisdiction. If you tie guardianship into a separate registry, then the loophole is closed off.

So what you're suggesting is not really a reform of the system then? I'm all right Jack?

I did read it. I did not say guardianship should be contingent on the birth registration only. I said that inclusion of father's name on birth certificate should grant equal status for the approx 1/3 of children who are born in Ireland outside of marriage.

Children born outside the State do not come under Irish jurisdiction so no legislation can be put in place to deal with this. However, legislation does exist which allows the father to establish his rights should the children return to Ireland.

As for Jack (Harkness? Sparrow? Kennedy?) being all right - I have no idea. But as my son is a grown man and has already taken the legal route to establish his rights I have no particular stake in this apart from thinking it was ridiculous that he had to do so in the first place simply because he and the children's mother never said 'I do' and signed the marriage register.

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

I told you how it can be easily avoided, FFS!

It sounds almost as if you don't want this loophole closed.

you are unbelievably rude.

How could you for example close the loophole if the pregnant woman says when asked about the father.

"I had a one night stand with a guy when I was on holidays, I don't know his surname, or where he comes from because he was also on holidays"

but she really knows the father and he lives in Ireland. she found out she was pregnant, didn't like him or had a grudge against him and didn't want him to know, so she moved to the other end of the country to prevent equal rights.

My point being then. some loopholes can't be closed, even if spotted. But the majority of unmarried fathers could be really helped with that tiny little change. A case like the above would probably be rare.

The Corinthian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I did read it. I did not say guardianship should be contingent on the birth registration only. I said that inclusion of father's name on birth certificate should grant equal status for the approx 1/3 of children who are born in Ireland outside of marriage.

I'm sorry, but any kind of system would have to apply equally to all children resident in Ireland, regardless of the country of birth, which is why I have repeatedly suggested a registrar (and birth cert in the case of children born in Ireland).

Otherwise, you're really discriminating against those children and their fathers, for reasons of blind bureaucracy and nothing else.

Unless you wish to suggest that the fathers of children resident in Ireland, but born outside, don't deserve the same protection under law.

Children born outside the State do not come under Irish jurisdiction so no legislation can be put in place to deal with this.

That's actually untrue. Children born outside the State come under Irish jurisdiction when they enter Ireland.

We also legislate for things that occur abroad all the time - for example, under the civil partnership bill, time spent cohabitation abroad counts once you're resident in Ireland for one year.

The Corinthian

illumi wrote: »

How could you for example close the loophole if the pregnant woman says when asked about the father.

"I had a one night stand with a guy when I was on holidays, I don't know his surname, or where he comes from because he was also on holidays"

But that's not the loophole we were discussing, so please don't change the goalposts.

The loophole I put forward was that a pregnant woman can have the child abroad (where the birth cert is harder/impossible to change), claim not to know who the father is (lie) and then return to Ireland. The father could know that he's about to become a father by her, but he's actually powerless to stop her from doing this and without his name on the birth cert, would be denied any rights.

This is only because you insist that the birth cert is the deciding document. If an Irish paternity registrar is instead the deciding document, then this loophole is closed off.

Naturally there will always be loopholes that cannot be closed, but this one can be and easily. Why are you so opposed to doing so?

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

Rude? How is that rude? Seriously, you're intentionally protecting a loophole that can easily be closed off - what reason is there for that? I'm genuinely open to hear any alternative explanation.

your cursing is rude.
there is no need for it. Which loophole am i protecting that can be easily fixed? I simply pointed a few out that could occur if equal rights were given and mothers didn't want equal rights to happen. If everything is so easily fixable then our laws would be perfect and would have no loopholes whatsoever.

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

This is only because you insist that the birth cert is the deciding document. If an Irish paternity registrar is instead the deciding document, then this loophole is closed off.

I don't insist. I think it would be a good start. I can't think of anything better at the moment to help the majority of unmarried fathers rights as simple as this. If someone brings something better up, I will indeed say.. yes thats way better.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Naturally there will always be loopholes that cannot be closed, but this one can be and easily. Why are you so opposed to doing so?

That was my point. some loopholes can't be closed, even if they are spotted.
I am not opposed to closing any loopholes. Where did I ever say such a thing. Pointing ones out that can't be closed doesn't mean I want them. My firm belief will always be that a child should have both parents in their lives.

The Corinthian

illumi wrote: »

I don't insist. I think it would be a good start. I can't think of anything better at the moment to help the majority of unmarried fathers rights as simple as this. If someone brings something better up, I will indeed say.. yes thats way better.

I suggested a better alternative. What is your objection to it?

That was my point. some loopholes can't be closed, even if they are spotted.
I am not opposed to closing any loopholes. Where did I ever say such a thing. Pointing ones out that can't be closed doesn't mean I want them. My firm belief will always be that a child should have both parents in their lives.

But I've pointed out one that can be closed, and how. Why do you oppose closing it?

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suggested a better alternative. What is your objection to it?

But I've pointed out one that can be closed, and how. Why do you oppose closing it?

I must have missed that better alternative. :rolleyes:

Where did I oppose that loophole being closed. Because I didn't.
I don't like words being put in my mouth.

The Corinthian

illumi wrote: »

I must have missed that better alternative. :rolleyes:

Let me repeat myself then:

Problem: The loophole I put forward was that a pregnant woman can have the child abroad (where the birth cert is harder/impossible to change), claim not to know who the father is (lie) and then return to Ireland. The father could know that he's about to become a father by her, but he's actually powerless to stop her from doing this and without his name on the birth cert, would be denied any rights.

Solution: I have repeatedly suggested a registrar in Ireland that would be act as the defining document, rather than the birth cert. This way where the child is born does not matter and the loophole is closed.

Where did I oppose that loophole being closed. Because I didn't.
I don't like words being put in my mouth.

Either that or you didn't read what I wrote, because I've been pretty clear.

illumi

The Corinthian wrote: »

Solution: I have repeatedly suggested a registrar in Ireland that would be act as the defining document, rather than the birth cert. This way where the child is born does not matter and the loophole is closed.

Yes I agree on this too. Both are good ideas. Both are ideas that are easily implemented.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Either that or you didn't read what I wrote, because I've been pretty clear.

I don't oppose loopholes being closed at all. I can say it over and over again that I firmly believe that a child should have both parents in their lives. And everything should be done to stop parents and children being separated. Be it father from child, or mother from child.

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm sorry, but any kind of system would have to apply equally to all children resident in Ireland, regardless of the country of birth, which is why I have repeatedly suggested a registrar (and birth cert in the case of children born in Ireland).

Otherwise, you're really discriminating against those children and their fathers, for reasons of blind bureaucracy and nothing else.

Unless you wish to suggest that the fathers of children resident in Ireland, but born outside

That's actually untrue. Children born outside the State come under Irish jurisdiction when they enter Ireland. We legislate for things that occur abroad all the time - for example, under the civil partnership bill, time spent cohabitation abroad counts once you're resident in Ireland for one year.

Rude? How is that rude? Seriously, you're intentionally protecting a loophole that can easily be closed off - what reason is there for that? I'm genuinely open to hear any alternative explanation.

I did not suggest it is an either/or situation. To introduce legislation which states that inclusion on a child's Irish birth certificate grants an unmarried father automatic equal status with the mother takes care of one important area which need reform and would be relatively simple.

Legislation could also be introduced that when a man has established paternity of a child resident in the State - he can apply to be registered as the child's father and given the same status under law as unmarried father's would be granted by inclusion on the Birth cert in the case of those children born in the State.


To create an international register which grants a man father's rights over a child not resident in the State would require other jurisdictions to agree - while I am not against this idea, it would be complicated and time consuming . There is no reason, however, that while this is being negotiated the situation for those children and their fathers already in the State cannot be regularised.

I am not discriminating against anyone - I am stating a basic fact that the Irish government can only legislate for those resident in the 26 counties.

illumi

Bannasidhe wrote: »

however, that while this is being negotiated the situation for those children and their fathers already in the State cannot be regularised.

I am not discriminating against anyone - I am stating a basic fact that the Irish government can only legislate for those resident in the 26 counties.

And because this process could take long the cert would be the simplest solution for most fathers and their children in Ireland already until this process is complete, is that what you're saying?
I'm a little tired now. Sorry. lol

Bannasidhe

illumi wrote: »

And because this process could take long the cert would be the simplest solution for most fathers and their children in Ireland already until this process is complete, is that what you're saying?
I'm a little tired now. Sorry. lol

Yup.

Callan57

I really find this term 'rights to their child' objectionable .... IMO when you bring a child into the world what you have are responsibilities ... for about 20 years. This obsession with rights is putting the unfortunate child in the same category as the car or the house or the dog for that matter!

laoch na mona

Callan57 wrote: »

I really find this term 'rights to their child' objectionable .... IMO when you bring a child into the world what you have are responsibilities ... for about 20 years. This obsession with rights is putting the unfortunate child in the same category as the car or the house or the dog for that matter!

responsibility even if you are not aloud see your child
you shouldn't be expected to support a child you are not aloud see