How to catch the dole scammers

beagle001

This might have been addressed before but I will post it just in case.
I was thinking about the amount of welfare fraud in this country and how inadequate the checking system or lack of it that exists to curtail this fraud.
When it dawned on me if a computer hacker hacks a bank or another company,they are often offered a chance to redeem themselves by going to work for the individual company they hacked and helping make the system more secure and impenetrable.
Now why don`t the government say to all these serial fraudsters when caught particularly the large frauds that are rampant in certain communities we all know which ones, instead of a jail sentence they must go to work for the dole fraud squad and the time must be served spilling the beans on all the different type of frauds.
Then set up a unit tasked with addressing each scam and fix it straight away,if the person does not co-operate then jail them and cut them off welfare no questions.
Wouldnt it be better if they put a 100 million aside to implement fool proof indentification cards,background checks,extra inspectors on the ground and employ some of these fraudsters legitimately.
It takes a crook to catch a crook often and you only have to wonder what the f-ck they are at that they cannot come up with ideas to catch thses crooks.
Why not make it 250 euro for every person that snitches on a dole scammer,something needs to change.

karma_

Maybe we could give them jobs in government, they already have the experience like.

Richard Hillman

beagle001 wrote: »

This might have been addressed before but I will post it just in case.
I was thinking about the amount of welfare fraud in this country and how inadequate the checking system or lack of it that exists to curtail this fraud.
When it dawned on me if a computer hacker hacks a bank or another company,they are often offered a chance to redeem themselves by going to work for the individual company they hacked and helping make the system more secure and impenetrable.
Now why don`t the government say to all these serial fraudsters when caught particularly the large frauds that are rampant in certain communities we all know which ones, instead of a jail sentence they must go to work for the dole fraud squad and the time must be served spilling the beans on all the different type of frauds.
Then set up a unit tasked with addressing each scam and fix it straight away,if the person does not co-operate then jail them and cut them off welfare no questions.
Wouldnt it be better if they put a 100 million aside to implement fool proof indentification cards,background checks,extra inspectors on the ground and employ some of these fraudsters legitimately.
It takes a crook to catch a crook often and you only have to wonder what the f-ck they are at that they cannot come up with ideas to catch thses crooks.
Why not make it 250 euro for every person that snitches on a dole scammer,something needs to change.

Im am totally for this. I know 3 couples where the mother is claiming to be living at the house single but has the boyfriend living there. I know its my civic duty to report them but if i report all 3 and they are dealth with then i would have them hanging around my house non stop and feckers are here enough as it is. €750 would ease the pain somewhat and i would probably take up a career of catching welfare cheats. Like Dog the welfare cheat hunter :cool:

Chuck Stone

How about a big butterfly net?

You'd catch 'em real good in that.

bijapos

The system needs to be completely turned on its head.

I.D. cards are the only answer, with something like a scan of the iris to stop duplication, phase them in over 6 months. There are still people collecting 2 dole cheques and cases of people going abroad to Australia etc and having someone else sign on for them. I signed on for 4 months in 2009, was never asked for I.D, people I know on the dole since 08 or 09 have never been asked either.

Sign on once a week, this nonsense of once a month is idiotic and open to abuse, I'm aware of a few lads working in London who come back every 4 weeks to sign on.

Get your dole cheque printed when you sign on once a week, stop this crap of sending it directly to peoples bank accounts (iirc that applies to people on the dole pre 2008?), that will also sort out some wasters.

All kids allowance to be reduced by €15 a week, tell who the absentee father is and get it reinstated, then the state should go to the father and get €30 a week off them, either by knocking it off the dole or take it as a tax deduction as a part of PAYE.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Son Of A Vidic

That's right OP, work away and go for the unfortunates at the bottom of the ladder.

Me? I'm not concerned with little fish. I'd rather target, the scummy, fraudster, lying banking bástards who have cost us billions.

Lawrence1895

1. Vouchers instead of cash/cheque.
2. FAS and Welfare Office under one roof. This is done in Germany, and whoever refuses to take a job offered by FAS without apparent reason (eg. looking after a child or sick family member) gets his dole scrapped.

kilburn

They could start by writing down number plates of the 11 reg Passats and Avensis' that pull up to sign on ! No brainer buy a f***** notrbook and stand at the front door.

phasers

Abolish the dole altogether! Make the povs earn their bread by going into people's houses and cleaning up.

kilburn wrote: »

They could start by writing down number plates of the 11 reg Passats and Avensis' that pull up to sign on ! No brainer buy a f***** notrbook and stand at the front door.

I have an ingenious way to avoid your elaborate trap... park around the corner. :cool:

Oh_Noes

Lars1916 wrote: »

1. Vouchers instead of cash/cheque.

Doesn't work. Want to buy my €10 food voucher? It's all yours for €9. The idea would give birth to a whole new black market and a whole new wave of criminals.

Lars1916 wrote: »

2. FAS and Welfare Office under one roof. This is done in Germany, and whoever refuses to take a job offered by FAS without apparent reason (eg. looking after a child or sick family member) gets his dole scrapped.

I agree completely with this although they need to be actual jobs not unpaid "work experience" which FAS seems to specialise in.

Lawrence1895

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Doesn't work. Want to buy my €10 food voucher? It's all yours for €9. The idea would give birth to a whole new black market and a whole new wave of criminals.



I agree completely with this although they need to be actual jobs not unpaid "work experience" which FAS seems to specialise in.

What if you have to show receipts to your dole officer? Or vouchers with your name on it which can only be redeemed with your ID?

But I agree, jobs have to be there first, before they are offered. Some kind of catch 22 here

phasers

Lars1916 wrote: »

What if you have to show receipts to your dole officer? Or vouchers with your name on it which can only be redeemed with your ID?

But I agree, jobs have to be there first, before they are offered. Some kind of catch 22 here

So if you go to the shop for milk you have to show your papers? What if shops choose not to accept vouchers?

douglashyde

as said: FAS and Dole under same roof. Make the 100's internship programes on offer required. Bring in ID cards. Have rewards for reporting frauds.

All these things are relatively cheap to implement considering the amount of our budget that goes into "social protection"

mackg

Chuck Stone wrote: »

How about a big butterfly net?

You'd catch 'em real good in that.

Or a giant lasoo that'd be class.

7sr2z3fely84g5

unfortunately with people being forced to be taxed to bail out the banks and pay for former ministers massive pensions it has left some people's income financially better off on welfare,an old board snip report taken from 09 so maybe the circumstances have changed-

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/it-can-pay-to-stay-at-home-836442000-a-year-to-be-precise-1826386.html

SOCIAL welfare payments are currently so generous there is no incentive for some people to take up jobs, the Bord Snip report reveals.
This is particularly the case for couples with children.
A Dublin family with three children can get €42,000 a year when all the social welfare payments they are entitled to are combined, the report explains.
Tax experts said yesterday this family would need to get a job paying at least €55,000 to come out with the same amount of money after tax.
But the average industrial wage is €33,000 before tax, which means there is little incentive for the adults in a family like this to take up an average-income job -- if they could get one.

'Poverty trap'
Economists call the situation where you get more money on social welfare than you would entering the workforce the "poverty trap".
"The group [An Bord Snip] considers that it is important that the rates and benefits available under the social welfare system do not inhibit a return to work," the second volume of the report states.
Tax rises imposed in the two budgets in the past year have made it even less attractive for people to take up paid employment.
According to the report, a Dublin couple with three children, from the ages of four to 11, can avail of benefits worth €23,000 a year.
This is made up of €204.30 a week in Jobseeker's Benefit, or €10,623 a year. There is an additional weekly payment of €135.60 for a "qualifying adult" in respect of the spouse. There is also a payment of €78 a week for the three children, as the graphic on this page shows.
When a rent allowance of €232.15 a week is added in, the couple ends up with tax-free payments worth €35,500.

As they have three children, the couple in the Bord Snip Nua report would be entitled to total child benefit payments of €123.46 a week. This means the fictional family is taking in €803.09 a week, or €41,960.68 a year in state benefits.
The report also points out that a couple with no children receiving rent supplement could receive up to €27,000 a year.

Snip's authors say they are concerned that any further hiking in tax rates would make it even more unattractive to take up jobs, adding that social welfare rates should be cut by 5pc across the board.
If one of the adults in the example of the couple with three children were to take up a job, they would end up paying tax at 20pc up to €45,400. They would also have to pay 2pc in the income levy, 4pc in PRSI and 4pc of their gross income in the health levy, tax expert Cathal Maxwell of Paylesstax.ie said.

He added that this couple, with one income, would need to earn €55,000 a year to come out with €42,000 after tax.

Last gov rewarded the career dolers-
Welfare rate 2003- http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW19_03/Pages/sw19_sect6_03.aspx
€124

Welfare rate 2008- http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW19_08/Pages/sw19_sect6.aspx
€197

My name is URL

Lars1916 wrote: »

1. Vouchers instead of cash/cheque.

For everyone claiming the dole or just those shown to be taking the piss?

It would be a bit extreme for genuine claimants. Why should they not be allowed to spend the money they're fully entitled to, on what they wish?

ShadowHearth

Hmmmm. Everybody know those social wellfare riders, but no one reported a single one. If everyone of us would report atleast one of them, we would get arid of 90% of welfare riders.

Those who are taking it for a ride don't even hide it.

phasers

douglashyde wrote: »

as said: FAS and Dole under same roof. Make the 100's internship programes on offer required. Bring in ID cards. Have rewards for reporting frauds.

All these things are relatively cheap to implement considering the amount of our budget that goes into "social protection"

You think people should be forced to work in a garage for €50? The internship scheme is a farce and needs to be completely overhauled.

People should be encouraged to find real work, or pursue further education, not be sold into slavery.

I think the main problem here is that most of the changes suggested would mainly affect people who are genuinely trying to get off the dole. ID cards are a good idea but I think someone did the maths and they worked out as too expensive, even factoring in the amount of welfare fraud going on. (I'm not 100% sure though)

Fás is in the dole office. So what? Fás is completely useless, always has been. Abolish it and introduce a new scheme which actually tries to get people into work, not just off the live register. Fás only care about numbers, and will put people into any auld rubbish course or placement to make their numbers look better.

Lawrence1895

phasers wrote: »

So if you go to the shop for milk you have to show your papers? What if shops choose not to accept vouchers?

Question 1: You only pay with your voucher, it can be done in a discreet way.
Question 2: Shops are obliged to take vouchers, at least most of them are in Germany, eg. retail chains

dj jarvis

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

That's right OP, work away and go for the unfortunates at the bottom of the ladder.

Me? I'm not concerned with little fish. I'd rather target, the scummy, fraudster, lying banking bástards who have cost us billions.

in fairness i say ****ing nail the cheating bastards to a wall for all to laugh at
the amount of money being stolen is amazing !!

the money could go to helping the people on the bottom of the ladder , or people in real need , i was working in crumlin children hospital today , in the cancer ward - place is in bits , cramped and dark - full of really sick children who need all the help we can give them - while the dole cheats LAUGH at how much they are scamming
all out war on this , if you deserve your payments and are not scamming then you are ok - if you dont then jail you should be

a cap on how much social welfare money goes to each house should be started , on newstalk today a politician pointed out that he knows of familys who have never worked a day but get up to 60,000 a year , for some one who has a job needs to earn nearly 120,000 to get 60,000 after tax

how is this right ??

starbelgrade

I have an easy solution - instead of wasting €100 million on catching fraudsters as the OP suggested - I suggest that anyone who's on the welfare for more than 6 months should be shot in front of a firing squad of angry PAYE workers.

Not only would it save a fortune in benefit claims, but even more importantly it would also serve to sate the appetite of the indignant taxpayers.

Chuck Stone

mackg wrote: »

Or a giant lasoo that'd be class.

Yeah... like a rodeo. Loads of dole cheats being released into a stadium with the feild fenced off - where they'd have to avoid being lasooed.

The last guy standing get's off scot free and the others get branded with a hot iron.

You'd make a fortune at the gate...

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/B1llyb0b/1294265437030.jpg

kilburn

Public hangings in Stephens Green great way to entertain the law abiding unemployed !

7sr2z3fely84g5

dj jarvis wrote: »

, on newstalk today a politician pointed out that he knows of familys who have never worked a day but get up to 60,000 a year , for some one who has a job needs to earn nearly 120,000 to get 60,000 after tax

how is this right ??

scroll above to my post i provided some info.

Oh_Noes

douglashyde wrote: »

as said: FAS and Dole under same roof. Make the 100's internship programes on offer required.

All these things are relatively cheap to implement considering the amount of our budget that goes into "social protection"

So that's hundreds of €200 payments by the government being turned into hundreds of €250 payments by the government. It's not cheap to try to reduce the social protection budget by adding on another 25% to the payment. Are you forgetting who is actually paying for those "internships"?

Senna

Get rid of paper money, everything electronic. ATM's, debit cards, simple electronic transfers.
Would wipe out nearly all welfare fraud, not to mention most other crimes.

Lawrence1895

My name is URL wrote: »

For everyone claiming the dole or just those shown to be taking the piss?

It would be a bit extreme for genuine claimants. Why should they not be allowed to spend the money they're fully entitled to, on what they wish?

Sorry, almost forgot you there

Of course, there would be many different vouchers, tailor made to the needs of the claimant. Vouchers for food, drinks, pet food, clothes, etc.

Just a bit of work for the deciding officer there, who actually has to talk to the claimant on a regular base.

In Germany, this job is done by a Social Worker, who visits the claimant, and then passes any news to the deciding officer, who sits in the same building.

starbelgrade

Senna wrote: »

Get rid of paper money, everything electronic. ATM's, debit cards, simple electronic transfers.
Would wipe out nearly all welfare fraud, not to mention most other crimes.

I seriously doubt it.

Crazy Horse 6

Disgusting wiff of the elite off this site.

Eric Cartman

just send dole inspectors to all the pubs at 11am and have them follow drug dealers, youll catch a f*ck load of them that way

ShadowHearth

Shouldn't there be some sort of inspectors who have to check up on those people?! Or do they just give dole and welfare and hope they are not scamming?!

It's really silly when unemployed couple with kids end up with waaaaaaaay more money then couple with no kids working full time...

Why would they go to work?!

Oh_Noes

It would probably take half of the resources/manpower/talent to actually create some jobs that it would take to design and implement all these new systems of currency being suggested in the thread :pac:.

Senna

starbelgrade wrote: »

I seriously doubt it.

Doubt that it would work, or doubt that it would be accepted by the public?
If its the latter, i agree.

starbelgrade

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Disgusting wiff of the elite off this site.

The elite don't post on Boards, but you do get a lot of Joe Duffy types, right wingers & Sinn Feiners.

There's also a lot of sound people though, so don't let the idiots ruin it for you.

Nolanger

Hack into their phones!

blackplum123

Very simple.
Claimants should be made, present themselves at there local post office each week for their claim.
Social welfare cards should contain fingerprint details.
Present you card when you claim and fingerprint scanned to verify claimant.
It may be expensive to set up but will pay for itself over a short period of time.

starbelgrade

Senna wrote: »

Doubt that it would work, or doubt that it would be accepted by the public?
If its the latter, i agree.

Either. Getting rid of cash isn't going to eliminate crime or fraud by any means. It may make it more difficult, but it certainly wouldn't make it impossible.

My name is URL

Lars1916 wrote: »

Sorry, almost forgot you there

Of course, there would be many different vouchers, tailor made to the needs of the claimant. Vouchers for food, drinks, pet food, clothes, etc.

Just a bit of work for the deciding officer there, who actually has to talk to the claimant on a regular base.

In Germany, this job is done by a Social Worker, who visits the claimant, and then passes any news to the deciding officer, who sits in the same building.

Ah, okay. I can see the sense in how it might get the long-term and habitual unemployed back to work but I don't think it would be beneficial to introduce it for everyone on the dole. It would only save a small bit of money after you consider how much it would cost to implement. I'd imagine the administration of such a system would require a lot of work.

The money that people are spending while on the dole still goes directly back into the economy, so vouchers would serve little purpose in saving money. There's a tiny minority of claimants cash going into the black economy but I'd say there are far easier ways to tackle that (random drug testing for example).

Anyway, I don't think it'd be fair to restrict the freedoms of everyone just to get rid of a problem caused by a small minority.

Lawrence1895

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Shouldn't there be some sort of inspectors who have to check up on those people?! Or do they just give dole and welfare and hope they are not scamming?!

It's really silly when unemployed couple with kids end up with waaaaaaaay more money then couple with no kids working full time...

Why would they go to work?!

We are not in Germany, otherwise there would be an annoying visit of an annoying Social Worker twice a year

Niles

blackplum123 wrote: »

Very simple.
Claimants should be made, present themselves at there local post office each week for their claim.
Social welfare cards should contain fingerprint details.
Present you card when you claim and fingerprint scanned to verify claimant.
It may be expensive to set up but will pay for itself over a short period of time.

I don't think this would make much of a difference, as it stands claimants have to show photo ID when collecting their payment, certainly this seems to be enforced at my local post office.

Senna

starbelgrade wrote: »

Either. Getting rid of cash isn't going to eliminate crime or fraud by any means. It may make it more difficult, but it certainly wouldn't make it impossible.

This was talked about before, but if you can only get money by being deposited into you bank account and the rules for setting up bank accounts were a lot stricter than they are, its pretty simple to track money.
It would eliminate a huge amount of small level welfare fraud, which is the biggest cost to the state.

7sr2z3fely84g5

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Shouldn't there be some sort of inspectors who have to check up on those people?! Or do they just give dole and welfare and hope they are not scamming?!

Overtime would probably be wanted,we seem to give overtime payment for everything.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

It's really silly when unemployed couple with kids end up with waaaaaaaay more money then couple with no kids working full time...

Why would they go to work?!

no allowance for creches?..

Oh_Noes

How about we implant a robotic chip in all unemployed people's heads that are scanned by a giant robot in the post office and loaded with credits for milk and bread that is then scanned by another giant robot in the milk/bread shop.

It will be like transformers. I would actually just leave my job so I could be unemplyed and partake in this scheme becuase it sounds so cool.

MistyCheese

Oh_Noes wrote: »

How about we implant a robotic chip in all unemployed people's heads that are scanned by a giant robot in the post office and loaded with credits for milk and bread that is then scanned by another giant robot in the milk/bread shop.

It will be like transformers. I would actually just leave my job so I could be unemplyed and partake in this scheme becuase it sounds so cool.

Well, as long as they are allowed a) bread b) milk c) C.V. printing and d) potatoes but are restricted from purchasing a) cigarettes b) alcohol c) meat d) TV/Internet/Phone services e) Movie tickets f) magazines g) nail varnish h) travel i) food for dogs/cats j) new underwear k) bedding l) brand-name toothpaste n) presents for children's birthday/Christmas presents and/or m) anything else.

I mean, let's targets the real criminals, yeah?

saltandpepper10

is it very simplistic to think obviously imo,that all this so called easy money recirculates back into the economy,thus keeping people in jobs.i have heard you can only have 20 gees savings to be able to claim dole so if everyone spends all benifits every week /happy days no?

Richard Hillman

Senna wrote: »

Get rid of paper money, everything electronic. ATM's, debit cards, simple electronic transfers.
Would wipe out nearly all welfare fraud, not to mention most other crimes.

A new social welfare card could be used as something similar to a credit card. You can go to the shops with it but you cant purchase stuff like booze and cigarettes. Also it cant be used for your online betting account, tickets for concerts, sky subscriptions etc. It will be limited to food stuffs, travel, clothing, household bills and other essentials. It would also come in handy for rent because a lot of landlords are renting out their places through their own means and are not registered landlords.

ilovelamp2000

starbelgrade wrote: »

I have an easy solution - instead of wasting €100 million on catching fraudsters as the OP suggested - I suggest that anyone who's on the welfare for more than 6 months should be shot in front of a firing squad of angry PAYE workers.

Not only would it save a fortune in benefit claims, but even more importantly it would also serve to sate the appetite of the indignant taxpayers.

But bullets and guns cost money.

Drown 'em.

Littlehorny

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

That's right OP, work away and go for the unfortunates at the bottom of the ladder.

Me? I'm not concerned with little fish. I'd rather target, the scummy, fraudster, lying banking bástards who have cost us billions.

great point the reason half a million people are on the dole is because of those bastards, banks put us a hole for billions and small minded people want to savage someone over a few quid!!

Freddie59

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

That's right OP, work away and go for the unfortunates at the bottom of the ladder.

Me? I'm not concerned with little fish. I'd rather target, the scummy, fraudster, lying banking bástards who have cost us billions.

But does this make the dole scam any less repugnant? And many of the "unfortunates at the bottom of the ladder" have far more lavish lifestyles than the PAYE workers who prop that lifestyle up. Get a grip.

Freddie59

Littlehorny wrote: »

great point the reason half a million people are on the dole is because of those bastards, banks put us a hole for billions and small minded people want to savage someone over a few quid!!

A deficit of €18bn is far from a 'few quid'.