The Importance of qualified Judges at amateur Muay Thai shows

Peetrik

Firstly I'd like to say this isn't directed at anybody/gym/show, simply interested to hear other people's views on the subject. Also by 'qualified' I mean, has attended and passed the Tony Myers judging course (I know a piece of paper doesn't really mean much but for the sake of argument lets use that as the imaginary benchmark).


This is an issue that I can clearly see both sides of. On one hand...


I can fully understand that to guarantee that you have qualified judges you're probably going to have to offer some sort of payment or at least compensate travel/food for the day, which just isn't financially justifiable at an amateur event where you're only charging a fiver a head. I understand that the main focus of amateur fights is to give the fighters ring experience and that the result itself is secondary. I fully appreciate that even if you do organise qualified judges then half of them won't show up and the other half will wait until the exact moment you need them to wander off and hide.


But on the other hand...


Fighters and Coaches spend 6-8 weeks putting their time and effort into preparing for a fight, they deserve to be judged by someone who knows how to score. There is a very big difference between someone who has studied and knows the Muay Thai scoring system and someone who has been training for a year or two. They may not know if the body kick still scores even though it was caught and the kicker dumped on the ground, they're not sure if you can knee in the back or if they should deduct points for a strike at a falling opponent etc etc etc. It should be given the same priority as organising the venue and matching fighters and not just left to 'whoever's around on the day'.


Again I'm just interested in opinions away from the heat of the moment reactions that you might get at actual events. Any resemblance to a person/judge/gym is coincidence... except for Tony Myers.. he's real

Khannie

Well....I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone organising a fight. I'm not sure how to guarantee having people who've passed the judging course there without paying for it. There's a fairly limited number of people in the country who have passed that course. Around 30 odd if memory serves.

I'd happily judge if I was at an amateur event. I'm just not at that many because of family commitments. Of the others who are there and have passed the course, a lot of them are trainers, or helping out with the corner or fighting or whatever.

Now on the flip side the ambulance guys are paid for and as you said the lads are putting in hundreds of hours training. To be on the crappy end of a bad judging decision after all that has got to be gutting.

I just don't see an obvious solution though to be honest.

Barry SeanScoil

this problem with judging has always bin around and its the same in thai, k1 and mma, at some events you even get MMA judges, judging k1 or k1 judges, judging thai etc.. some people make good judges regardless of attend a course and vise-vera.. for this problem to be solved everybody would have to be payed and regulated but we all know that's impossible.. At the end of the day we get into these sports because we love them and there's no shame in losing and not getting the correct dession, as long as you fight well and train hard the wins will come.

chprt

peetrik, out of curosity can I ask who you are please?

Also this is something I have given a lot of time and thought into, so will post a proper reply once I get the time

thanks paddy

Peetrik

chprt wrote: »

peetrik, out of curosity can I ask who you are please?

Patrick (Pat), I train at Bridgestone. I'm also well aware I'v only been training 'a wet day' compared to others on here Just interested in opinions

chprt

Peetrik, I am going to assume your pat hickey ??? if so you have more fights than most of the people posting on the muay thai forums...

To concentrate on amateur shows only, and to speak solely about the shows that I attend and are involved in, there as you rightly said will always be some problems, but these are only teething problems and should be cleared up as we move forward, and there is every intention of.

There are quite a few judges now in Ireland and so with that in mind there shouldnt be a problem getting 3 judges, the problem is is that it is quite hard to get them to attend amatuer shows and sometimes then you have to fill in last minute. Most amateur shows are held on Sundays normally a family day and hard maybe to get the lads to commit unless they are directly involved in the fights.

Some lads trained as judges and dont attend the gyms anymore so you have lost them and they need to be replaced with new judges.

In terms of paying judges this is something I said recently, and to date I think I am the only promoter to pay all pro fighters on the show and pay and feed judges and ref, I think john walsh may have followed suit. Payment shouldnt really happen in my opinion, certainly judges and ref should get something towards their costs, but they primarily should be there because of the love of muay thai and wanting to develop the sport further, so I dont think paying them will help you get better judges or more regular attending judges. If anything pay the fighters and the ref more money IMO.

Fighting and loosing, but yet knowing that you won is extremely dis-heartening, and happens in all gyms. It has happened to my fighters and they have packed it in saying they will never fight muay thai again because of gettign screwed.... but unfortunately thats life, although very very annoying its going to happen. Not the answer maybe you were looking for........

To ensure it doesnt happen.....the coach can actually vett the judges and ref and ask to have them replaced, there is no problem with this... if they dont think they are up to standard, this might not happen at an amatuer show, but I know I have asked at pro shows fro it to happen, and will continue to do so until I am happy they know what they are at..

Onto scoring and the legendary Tony Myres, with out doubt Tony is extremely knowledgable in all things Thai and also in cans of VIMTO private joke..

Tony is a teacher and so am I (education wise) so we both know you can only teach so much its up to the students to do what they wish with the knowledge you impart.... some people use the main scoring techniques as a bible for fighting and fail on other aspects of scoring, some lads might not be as good but have a rounder arsenal of weapons, and so "might" actually score better over the course of 5 rnds, because they take the rules and use them to their advantage. Its probably a good idea to review the rules every year as there are some changes in them now and again.

I spend several days every year in Tonys gym and hope to every year... some thing I was lamblasted for by a few idiots, but i learned more about fighting and scoring and how to fight in those 4 days thats I did in 1 month in Thailand... I kid you not.. Also some of Irelands top fighters train with Tony all the time they just dont make it public knowledge, Tony is a great man to sit down and have a chat with and you learn so much from him, and even at 1am he stills well capable of talkign about thai and the finer points of it.

I learned more there than on any judging course I ever sat. None of my fighters have sat a judging course but I guarentee you they can judge better than some lads in the country,

On a side note there are soem very knowledgable lads in Ireland from cork, dundalk and maybe even a red haired lad you might know who prob know the judgin inside out. IMO its lads like them that should be judges, as they are involved in it on a daily basis not a lad who trains once every 4 months be asked to help out, but again this isnt always possible

IS is possible btw paddy for fighter A to win 4 rnds and the for fighter B to win 1 rnd and fro fighter B to win the fight overall... some people dont realise this and think if their fighter won more rnds then he wins out right....

I suppose to end my drivel its all about "effect" a good teep can have more effect than a low kick, good judges and we do have some very good ones in Ireland, will only judges the fight in the ring and will not be influenced by gangs of lads at the corner screaming like banshees the very second there is a crappy knee in the clinch, most of those knees dont score anyways and refs have be instructed to break the clinch to keep the action going, so if possible try to watch a fight and score it as you watch it ratehr than think thats my mate billy in there and cheer every time he does something, also watch fights with no sound on and judge them as well, youd be suprised..

One lads are using good muay thai technique with good effect they will be well on the way to winning, so this should be encouraged in the gym and in gym sparring... The judging well I suppose thats something for promoters to look at as we move forward


right pat I hope that makes some sense to you, feel free to bounce anything off me....

oh... and ps

Khannie your a cock

paddy

Peetrik

Khannie wrote: »

There's a fairly limited number of people in the country who have passed that course. Around 30 odd if memory serves.

Ah ok, I had thought that was a course that had been run for years both here and in the UK and that anyone who had been training for awhile eventually got round to doing it.

Barry SeanScoil wrote: »

at some events you even get MMA judges, judging k1 or k1 judges, judging Thai etc

Shuddering even thinking about this.

chprt wrote: »

Peetrik, I am going to assume your pat hickey ???

Yep, that's me

chprt wrote: »

these are only teething problems and should be cleared up as we move forward, and there is every intention of.

Ah excellent, I had suspected that would just be the way it is, very good news to hear that its being looked at.

chprt wrote: »

a red haired lad you might know who prob know the judgin inside out

This was one of the reasons that had me thinking on this subject in the first place. This is just based on my own impression and not on anything he said so I could be wrong but... at an amateur show over the past year or so I remember that gent your describing and others whose opinions I would give serious weight to being very surprised at a few of the decisions.
That said, unless you're actually actively scoring a fight then I suppose it can be easy to get caught up.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head...

1. A forum thread/editable google document kept somewhere with a list of all qualified/experienced judges + contact details that could be asked to attend amateur events (just because they aren't training may not mean they aren't interested in judging)

2. Maybe instead of paying judges for amateur events give them free tickets to pro shows? Might be the incentive to get some bums on judges seats. Personally Id much prefer to judge an am show and then be able to relax and enjoy a pro show. Might also address the difficulty in getting judges for am shows compared to pro shows. If the host club doesn't have a pro show then maybe another club will do the decent thing for the benefit of having better judges for their fighters.

3. Non IMC judges. I don't want to stray into politics but there are some very experienced non IMC members who could well be convinced to judge, especially if they are in the same county as the am show, might be worth considering for the sake of the sport.

4. Shadow judging. I know the term is bandied around but in fairness if there is someone sitting beside a judge at shows its more often because it's a better seat than because they are actively leaning how to judge, call me a cynic if you like

chprt

Pat

How ye?

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head...

There is a list of judges and refs but only coaches would have a list of them as far as I know. There is a lot of good work being done to start refs and judges off at amatuer level before allowing them to judge pro fights, and their score cards are looked at after and discussions had with said folks if they making a balls of it, so with that being said there has to be some lea way with some of the newer judges.

Jusy because you have a driving licence doesnt make you a confident driver, same can be said with judging...

Free tickets fro pro shows for lads that judge amateurs not a bad idea... I cant believe you train In bridgestone and you actually have a brain waits for Khannie to bite....

The non-IMC judges, thats just going to opena can of worms, so best just to say its best not to go down that line, agreed there are many lads very capable of judging and reffing, some of them good mates of mine, but it just wont be possible for reasons best left off the forum.

Shadow judging, again not a bad idea but perhaps, some thing I do the lads, I make them watch fights I give them and score them and say who won and why, then you can steer them in the right path. Most of my lads can score as they are fighting as can quite a few lads in ireland at this stage, it allows them to know the work they have to do in the fight, if that makes sense.

All that being said the lads in charge are doing a great job at the moment and I only found out recently the actual amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to keep the whole thing going, so fair play to them.

Right pat, lets stop this serious talk now and just abuse Khanie over the comment some one said if the fight he watched Khannie in was a kickboxing match he would have won it... oh how i laughed at that

Khannie

Report card for Patrick Clint:

chprt wrote: »

oh... and ps

Khannie your a cock

paddy

A+. Long, serious post had me totally reeled in. Then, POW, right in the kisser. Good work.

chprt wrote: »

Free tickets fro pro shows for lads that judge amateurs not a bad idea... I cant believe you train In bridgestone and you actually have a brain waits for Khannie to bite....

D+. Try harder next time.

chprt wrote: »

Right pat, lets stop this serious talk now and just abuse Khanie over the comment some one said if the fight he watched Khannie in was a kickboxing match he would have won it... oh how i laughed at that

Khannie

chprt wrote: »

Shadow judging, again not a bad idea but perhaps, some thing I do the lads, I make them watch fights I give them and score them and say who won and why, then you can steer them in the right path. Most of my lads can score as they are fighting as can quite a few lads in ireland at this stage, it allows them to know the work they have to do in the fight, if that makes sense.

Wouldn't be mad about shadow judging. Only because you only see the score at the end of the round, not really what led to it unless you're having a discussion about it between rounds which wouldn't be ideal either (judging requires a lot of concentration and the break is important for the judge too IMO).

I like the idea of watching videos of fights / discussing scoring of the round after. Tony did a good bit of that on his course.

Peetrik wrote: »

2. Maybe instead of paying judges for amateur events give them free tickets to pro shows? Might be the incentive to get some bums on judges seats. Personally Id much prefer to judge an am show and then be able to relax and enjoy a pro show. Might also address the difficulty in getting judges for am shows compared to pro shows. If the host club doesn't have a pro show then maybe another club will do the decent thing for the benefit of having better judges for their fighters.

Very good idea that.

Khannie

Oh...one other thing that's worth pointing out....My primary goal when I went to do that judging course was not to become a judge, but to become a better fighter (and indirectly, pad man) out of it. Now I'm happy to give the judging a lash, but I'm sure I wasn't the only fighter down there picking up tips on how to score points more effectively. In short: Lots of people may have done that course who aren't interested in judging in the slightest.

Dave Joyce

Just wanted to add to what Paddy has wrote earlier. The rules for Muaythai are set by the Sports Authority of Thailand and to the best of my knowledge there are only two organisations who follow those rules and that is the WMC and WBC. (A lot of the other organisations are Kickboxing associations with a Thai section and in a lot of cases don't address rules for Muaythai and if they do a lot of the rules towards Muaythai are VERY vague). Tony's course's are based on those rule sets and as Paddy said, there are often changes/amendments. To qualify as a judge there are 3 courses to attend with the third and final course including the assessment and you have to pass with at least an 80% score.

One thing to bear in mind is judging is an ongoing skill and judging amateur and pro is one thing but then there is title fights, international and world amateur events etc The higher level you officiate at, the higher level of judging you will have. However, one thing I do actually disagree with (in regard to pro shows) is that the job of judging is every bit as important in my mind as refereeing and I do believe that if a ref gets paid, then judges should definately be paid also.

Now, with regard to amateur shows (and this is purely a personal opinion), a lot of the time I think while fighters should go all out to win, I do feel some clubs/people take amateur bouts WAY too serious and unless there is a strong reason to do so, I feel they would be far better if they weren't judged. To be honest, I don't mind if my guys lose amateur bouts as long as they fight well and show good Thai style and believe it or not, I would not be impressed if they just went in and horsed their way like a bull all through the fight and won.

at some events you even get MMA judges, judging k1 or k1 judges, judging Thai etc

Well, these would NOT be IMC sanctioned events.

Finally, and I AM NOT calling SOME non IMC guys abilities to judge WHATSOEVER into question but I personally would NEVER agree to people outside the council judging on our shows, pro or amateur. Apart from the possible legal/insurance questions of a non member judging on a show (ESPECIALLY in the event of a serious injury), I feel it totally undermines the work that has been done by people in the council to date.

Tim_Murphy

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Apart from the possible legal/insurance questions of a non member judging on a show (ESPECIALLY in the event of a serious injury), I feel it totally undermines the work that has been done by people in the council to date.

Hi Dave,

The ref is a thing entirely but what possible difference would it make who was judging the bout in the case of a serious injury?

Khannie

With respect Dave....

Dave Joyce wrote: »

I do feel some clubs/people take amateur bouts WAY too serious and unless there is a strong reason to do so, I feel they would be far better if they weren't judged. To be honest, I don't mind if my guys lose amateur bouts as long as they fight well and show good Thai style and believe it or not, I would not be impressed if they just went in and horsed their way like a bull all through the fight and won.

This thread is about judging, not about taking a swipe at people because you think they take amateur bouts too seriously. Also, there's nothing wrong with taking an amateur bout seriously. I don't know which club you're referring to, but everybody's now asking themselves "is he talking about my club?".

To the guys stepping in the ring it's serious business. They've put a lot of effort in. They're nervous. It's a fight. They should fight to win.

As for not judging amateur events...well....there are several problems with that, not least of which is the boredom factor (for both spectators and fighters alike). I can have a tip around any night of the week down in Bridgestone. When I get in the ring I want a fight. I want the guy who's opposite me to have trained his ass off and to want to knock me out. That's part of what makes it such an exciting sport to watch and participate in.

scotty22

hi..just want to give my view as an amature FIGHTER as i dont think anyone that has posted is still an amature..first off as u can see i put the word fighter in capital letters because that is what i consider myself as because if we were to go to these events just to get into the ring and nobody really wins then it would just take our progress back instead of forward as a fighter and then what wood be the point i can just have a heavy spar in training any nite of the week...

second points as an amature just speaking from what i do with regards to training and dieting etc...i know as a pro they put in more training and dieting in than i wood as a amature but this is what i do

i train 3 nites a week for nearly 2 hours then run and do sprints 2 other nites of the week..then as far as diet goes i stop eating sweets choc etc and eat as good as i can and dont eat after 7 o clock every day...i wood do all this over a 4 week period...this also includes no drinking alcohol for the 4 weeks...now never mind the fact i work 47 hrs a week have 4 kids and another on the way and a wife who also have to get some of my time (and money) and also due to this i wood not see my own mates as much as i like...so my point really is that i put a lot of time and effort into getting ready for a fight and scarafice a lot to do something i really enjoy

so as an amature i think i and all other amatures who i asume do them same or even more deserve similar respect as the pros...which is proper judges who know how to score because after all the preperation if i win the fight then it is all worth it but if i dont get a decision because of very bad judging then its very disheartening...but if i loose to a better fighter then fair enuf..i know we are not as good or technical as the pros but we still deserve the same r similar respect..and if we loose a fight then we will start to learn how to win fights by getting better scores which means by the time we go pro our own standard will be much better therefore bringing the standard up and if we fight abroad we will do better while representing irish muay thai

just my point of view..sorry for ranting

Khannie

scotty22 wrote: »

and another on the way

Congrats!

Dave Joyce

The ref is a thing entirely but what possible difference would it make who was judging the bout in the case of a serious injury?

Because in the event of a serious injury and a legal case been taken ALL officials at the event would be answerable.

This thread is about judging, not about taking a swipe at people because you think they take amateur bouts too seriously. Also, there's nothing wrong with taking an amateur bout seriously. I don't know which club you're referring to, but everybody's now asking themselves "is he talking about my club?".

Whoa Khannie, talk about fuvking paranoia going on!! Firstly I said SOME CLUBS/PEOPLE took things too seriously, I WASN'T referring to ANYONE club/individual in particular. Now I am ENTITLED TO AN OPINION even if its not a popular one and to be honest I fuvking RESENT the insinuation that by what I said I wasn't taking either the fights or the fighters seriously!!!!!!! Where the FUVK do people get the conclusion: not scoring amateur fights = to them been not taken seriously, been hard spars etc WTF??????!!!!!!

Now there are cases where fights SHOULD be judged ie more experienced amateur fighters, guys who for whatever reason can't/don't fight pro but starting out is just that and with less pressure PERHAPS fighters will fight with better style/technique. I remember reffing some amateur fights when we first started these events and if two lads were trying to take each others head's off, I (and a lot of the other refs) would pull them in and ask them to relax and still put in as much effort but without the madness. If I currently tried to do that at an amateur show, God knows what the two corners would say to me.

When I get in the ring I want a fight. I want the guy who's opposite me to have trained his ass off and to want to knock me out. That's part of what makes it such an exciting sport to watch and participate in.

That's EXACTLY the type of attitude I was referring to.....we're talking about AMATEUR fighters, that's all well and good for pro events and apart from that we are trying to BRING ON fighters and their levels not the notches on their belts. They can still go as hard as they want but WHY anyone would WANT to go into an amateur event with the sole intention of KOing their opponent is beyond me. A good few of us fought against English opponents in the early days and fought mainly with skill, heart and fitness and were battered by better skilled opponents. I would like to think that the evolution in Muaythai in Ireland has come about partly because of the amateur events!

Peetrik

I think Dave is fully right that calm sparring in a good Thai style without just losing it and milling wildly is very important, without a doubt this does sometimes happen in amateur fights.
I think its very benificial getting to spar people who you haven't sparred a hundred times already and you already know their strengths and weaknesses without just 'horsing' or 'bulling' through it, but I have to say I think that this is more what interclubs and demos are for.
This may not always have been the case, it might well just be that this is the way the sport has evolved in Ireland, as to wether thats a good or a bad thing I have no idea.

In sparring with club mates or with people from other clubs, I would be appalled and embarassed to think I had been going harder than they wanted or were prepared for, personally I hate to see big beginners going too hard on smaller opponents in sparring.
However, to me, a fight is a fight, regardless of amateur or pro. It might just be me but I have never gotten the impression there was any confusion over the fact that it was full contact, either from my opponent or from other amateur fighters at any of the events I'v attented.

To me an amateur fight should be as close as possible to a pro fight so as to fully prepare the fighters for professional bouts, its where the fighters should learn what their optimal fighting weight is so as to avoid turning up 3kg overweight at a pro fight, where they learn that they are nowhere near as fit as they need to be (nothing worse than seeing a fighter totally gassed flailing limply) and where they learn if they will crack under the pressure of someone trying to 'horse' through them.

Again this may just be the way the sport is evolving here, I have been told on more than one ocassion that the standard of C class fighters has greatly improved over the last number of years. I'd like to think that maybe the amateur fights have replaced the C class fights of a few years ago and that the top Irish fighters are moving up to an International level.
Ireland certainly has a history of producing fighters... afterall... we're still here

ps Apologies for going off thread

chprt

lads can we stick to the topic please...

... some one once said Khannie fought like a kickboxer


paddy

Tim_Murphy

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Because in the event of a serious injury and a legal case been taken ALL officials at the event would be answerable.

Hi Dave,

According to who?

I will potentially be running events in the future so I'm just curious.

Khannie

Dave Joyce wrote: »

I fuvking RESENT the insinuation that by what I said I wasn't taking either the fights or the fighters seriously!!!!!!!

Not quite sure where you got that from? I think that's just crossed wires tbh.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Where the FUVK do people get the conclusion: not scoring amateur fights = to them been not taken seriously, been hard spars etc WTF??????!!!!!!

Not scoring a fight = interclub. My first time in the ring was an interclub over in Pete Feeney's and I was glad of it ("watch the powaaa.....watch the powaaaa" ) but the first think I asked Paul when I got out was "Did I win?". They're grand for your first few times in the ring or for kids as a learning tool (and I have to say, I think the kids taking up Thai is probably the best thing to happen to the sport in Ireland since I started). You'd get tired of it fairly quickly though. Even my youngfella is eager to get in for a full contact fight and he's only been in the ring 3 times now.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

I remember reffing some amateur fights when we first started these events and if two lads were trying to take each others head's off, I (and a lot of the other refs) would pull them in and ask them to relax and still put in as much effort but without the madness. If I currently tried to do that at an amateur show, God knows what the two corners would say to me.

Ah a lot of that is just nerves. God knows my first few amateur bouts were....not very skilled. Anyway....if you're reffing, you should ref the way you see fit IMO. There's a good middle ground to be had alright. Some of the amateur fights I've seen are all gusto, others have been all tipping around trying to score what I call "tippy tippy kicks" but the vast majority of amateur fights these days are a good middle ground between pushing it hard and using good skill to score well. Like Scotty says, the lads have put in a shed load of effort. I think they deserve to be judged well.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

That's EXACTLY the type of attitude I was referring to.....we're talking about AMATEUR fighters, that's all well and good for pro events and apart from that we are trying to BRING ON fighters and their levels not the notches on their belts. They can still go as hard as they want but WHY anyone would WANT to go into an amateur event with the sole intention of KOing their opponent is beyond me.

Ah I don't think they should until they hit pro, I probably phrased that badly. Whether you want to or not it's gonna be very difficult to achieve with the 16oz's and all the gear on anyway.

Anyway....this is all just banter. Let's try to get back on topic.

Oh, and paddy...he said I would have won if my fight was scored like they score kickboxing. Let's not go calling me a kickboxer now.

champski

scotty22 wrote: »

hi..just want to give my view as an amature FIGHTER as i dont think anyone that has posted is still an amature..first off as u can see i put the word fighter in capital letters because that is what i consider myself as because if we were to go to these events just to get into the ring and nobody really wins then it would just take our progress back instead of forward as a fighter and then what wood be the point i can just have a heavy spar in training any nite of the week...

second points as an amature just speaking from what i do with regards to training and dieting etc...i know as a pro they put in more training and dieting in than i wood as a amature but this is what i do

i train 3 nites a week for nearly 2 hours then run and do sprints 2 other nites of the week..then as far as diet goes i stop eating sweets choc etc and eat as good as i can and dont eat after 7 o clock every day...i wood do all this over a 4 week period...this also includes no drinking alcohol for the 4 weeks...now never mind the fact i work 47 hrs a week have 4 kids and another on the way and a wife who also have to get some of my time (and money) and also due to this i wood not see my own mates as much as i like...so my point really is that i put a lot of time and effort into getting ready for a fight and scarafice a lot to do something i really enjoy

so as an amature i think i and all other amatures who i asume do them same or even more deserve similar respect as the pros...which is proper judges who know how to score because after all the preperation if i win the fight then it is all worth it but if i dont get a decision because of very bad judging then its very disheartening...but if i loose to a better fighter then fair enuf..i know we are not as good or technical as the pros but we still deserve the same r similar respect..and if we loose a fight then we will start to learn how to win fights by getting better scores which means by the time we go pro our own standard will be much better therefore bringing the standard up and if we fight abroad we will do better while representing irish muay thai

just my point of view..sorry for ranting

I'm in the same boat myself and not getting any younger and you make some good points for sure, I've seen guys get robbed and it's definitely a dose even in the amateurs I train as hard as anyone in the gym but the biggest thing for me is that I perform. If i were to lose no matter how I'd be happy enough as long as I gave it a good lash. But to lose and not perform would be just sickening

Eddy L

Interesting topic lads nice work.The head men in the IMC will not be to happy,i can see people being summonsed before the grand jury.

Wise move every one agreeing with Dave Joyce he is the last man you want get into an debate/verbal joust with years of battles on forums behind him.

This was started by a Bridgestone fighter and 2-3 others have chipped in,i take it you guys aint happry with recent descions.

Peetrik

Eddy L wrote: »

The head men in the IMC will not be to happy

I dont see why. I wasn't talking about IMC events specifically, Im interested in all opinions

Eddy L wrote: »

This was started by a Bridgestone fighter and 2-3 others have chipped in,i take it you guys aint happry with recent descions.

I train at Bridgestone but I dont represent them in any way, just a curious individual. Champski and Scotty22 havn't said where they are from.

To be honest I think I'v been on the lucky side of descisions more often than not. This isn't about good or bad recent descisions, its about peoples opinions on if its important to have qualafied judges on amateur show in the same way that its important to have them on pro shows.

scotty22

It dont matter where i train r dont train..all i want to say is that ive won fights that were close and drawn fights i thought i won but that doesnt matter as long as they are judged by the right people if a decision doesnt go my way as long as the judges r more experienced than me r trained/done the course then ill think to my self that they know more and have beeen trained on scoring etc...then ill take it on the chin and deal with it...

but at one of my fights there was 3 judges and i know for a fact ive had more fights and experience than one of them and they havent even done the course and the other 2 woodnt have been that much more experienced than me...its time to stop talking about the problem and just start thinking about solutions...there has been a lot of good ones and some bad ones so far..maybe we should all do a list of things that wood help rather than go off the topic and start new decussions

Dave Joyce

Sorry guys haven't been online in a few days so couldn't answer until now.

Not quite sure where you got that from? I think that's just crossed wires tbh.

That wasn't aimed at anyone in particular Khannie, but some guys hinted at me not caring about the fighters which couldn't be further from the truth.

You'd get tired of it fairly quickly though.

I agree totally but it doesn't mean, as I explained earlier, that ALL amateur bouts don't have to be judged. I just personally think that AT FIRST the emphasis should be on fighting technically/better NOT just about winning. This is what will improve us AS A NATION with good foundation NOT just as a collection of clubs/individuals. Nowadays there is PLENTY of opportunity to fight if you wish so the chance to fight and get results are there.

Even my youngfella is eager to get in for a full contact fight and he's only been in the ring 3 times now.

Well if he's over 15yrs then he should be fighting full contact anyway and if he's under that age, then either patience or with enough experience it will come soon enough.

Ah a lot of that is just nerves. God knows my first few amateur bouts were....not very skilled. Anyway....if you're reffing, you should ref the way you see fit IMO. There's a good middle ground to be had alright. Some of the amateur fights I've seen are all gusto, others have been all tipping around trying to score what I call "tippy tippy kicks" but the vast majority of amateur fights these days are a good middle ground between pushing it hard and using good skill to score well. Like Scotty says, the lads have put in a shed load of effort. I think they deserve to be judged well.

THAT is precisely the point I was making. Where are the nerves coming from??? The expectation to perform/win rather than getting in there under no pressure and giving it your all, doesn't mean in anyway tippy tappy or anything but NO PRESSURE to win!!!!

Dave Joyce

but at one of my fights there was 3 judges and i know for a fact ive had more fights and experience than one of them and they havent even done the course and the other 2 woodnt have been that much more experienced than me...its time to stop talking about the problem and just start thinking about solutions...there has been a lot of good ones and some bad ones so far..maybe we should all do a list of things that wood help rather than go off the topic and start new decussions

With all respect Scotty, have YOU done the course yourself and if you have (or do it in the future) would you be willing to get in and judge after you fight yourself?? Its difficult to get people to judge at amateur shows in particular as there are very few guys who can judge that are not up to their eyes on the day of a show. I'll give you an example of what most amateur shows are like from a coaches point of view and this in NOT complaining or giving out but what most of us have to go through. At one of the last shows, I drove for almost three and a half hours (one way), cornered two of my fighters and reffed about 6 fights. I would have done more officiating but had to have one of my guys back in Galway for work that night. The day cost me over €100 and my whole day was gone and I was up for work the following morning at 6.30am. That is what most of the coaches/instructors go through for every show and most of these guys have families too. Its very easy to say stop talking and get solutions

scotty22

of course i havent done the course...but i didnt say that if a COACH has any fighters at an event that they should judge aswell i think it should be the complete opposite coaches put far more effort in b4 the day and let alone on the day..and if and hopefully wen i do the course if im not fighting i wood gladly judge at any event..im cheap as long as i got a bottle of lucozade and a moro no bother ...also of the 30 or so people that have done the course how many are actually coaches...im not asking coaches to judge just people who r at least more qualified than me..most events are organised weeks in advance and i know i havent organised one but it shouldnt be 2 hard to organise 3 people to judge the fights that r not coaches r fighting..

j walsh

Hi Scotty22 i'm just wondering if your talking about my show just gone? now maybe your not but i certainly try and ensure i have the most experinced judges possible to judge but less experinenced judges have to start somewhere, this is something we are working on improving. And its not always as easy as you might think to make sure you have judges at your show, things do come up and people cant make it sometimes.
You mentioned that someone judged your fight that hasn't done the course, well if its my show your talking about then everyone one who judged had done the course, yes one has only had 2 fts but he's done the course and showing an interest in judging and should be conmended for that (pity more fighters wouldn't do the same).
So everyone has to start somewhere and thats what amateur shows are for, not just for fighters, but for judges and ref's aswell, that way the sport as a whole improves, which is what we all want...Now my little rant is over bye bye ))

kellyc

sorry for going off topic slightly here, im just wondering perhaps dave or john could answer this but regarding the judges course, was there just the one course (Jan 2010) or has there been another since we all did it? or a previous one done and when was that?

thanks

scotty22

no i wasnt talking about any one show in particular i was talking in general about all the shows ive been fighting in and also the ones ive been at and not fighting on whether watching or helping out in...as i stated ive got a decision and won a fight that i thought was a draw and drawn a fight that i thought i won so i underswtand some fights can be close and everyone has a slightly different way of seeing thing in fights so wasnt taliking about any one event...ive havent lost a fight so i havent really had a bad decision go against me...and with ur show as we were on the way home in the car we all said how well it was run including myself and then wen chatting to rob from ur gym on facebook that nite r the next day i stated the same and complemented ur gym..and u can call me scotty instead of scotty22 also just another thing that popped into me head there now someone told me once that they seen a judge txting while judging a fight and cant remember which show but defo wasnt urs john so wether the judge is quailified r not they need to be doing things right aswell

Dave Joyce

but i didnt say that if a COACH has any fighters at an event that they should judge aswell i think it should be the complete opposite coaches put far more effort in b4 the day and let alone on the day

Well who else is going to do it, as the volunteers aren't exactly jumping forward.

regarding the judges course, was there just the one course (Jan 2010) or has there been another since we all did it? or a previous one done and when was that?

Can't remember when we had Tony over last Kelly but it was VERY poorly attended and it does cost a bit of money to get him over to do the course so to cover the costs people need to show up. Just to clarify, its not a single course, there are 3 parts and you can only do TWO max in the one weekend as there is so much material to go through. The third and final course includes an exam which you have to pass with at least an 80% mark. EVERY fighter SHOULD do the course (or at least parts 1+2) so they know HOW to score effectively and SHOW how they are winning/controlling a fight.

Khannie

Dave Joyce wrote: »

there are 3 parts and you can only do TWO max in the one weekend as there is so much material to go through. The third and final course includes an exam which you have to pass with at least an 80% mark. EVERY fighter SHOULD do the course (or at least parts 1+2) so they know HOW to score effectively and SHOW how they are winning/controlling a fight.

I did the course + test in one weekend there last year Dave (along with about 20 others). As you say, I did it more from a fighters perspective, but I judged two fights at the last Armageddon and enjoyed it, though it's a serious burden to have on your shoulders. I'd happily do it at any show I was at where I wasn't helping out in the corner or whatever. Was going to do it down in Carlow but had to leave because the baba was cranky.

So since we're looking for suggestions here, I've got one: How about we get someone trained up by Tony so that they can give the training themselves? That way you don't have the expense of flying him over and paying for his food and board. We'd just have someone here good enough to give the course and they could do it once a year or more frequently if there's demand. Someone who's spent a good bit of time in Thailand would be perfect for that and there are plenty of people in the country now who have that under their belts.

mugger

I think everyone that does the course should have to do it every 2-3 years no matter who they are especially if they are not active judges,that way everyone is on the same page again,and if you didnt do the course or did it and failed i dont see why you should be judging,ued be better off with the ref and 1 judge that knew what they were talkin about rather than 3 judges that didnt

Dave Joyce

How about we get someone trained up by Tony so that they can give the training themselves? That way you don't have the expense of flying him over and paying for his food and board. We'd just have someone here good enough to give the course and they could do it once a year or more frequently if there's demand. Someone who's spent a good bit of time in Thailand would be perfect for that and there are plenty of people in the country now who have that under their belts.

Actually, now that you mention the above Khannie, Craig O'Flynn is qualified to do the above already and has often been flown over to England to solely officiate at a lot of the big shows over there. That is something positive to start working on now.

Khannie

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Actually, now that you mention the above Khannie, Craig O'Flynn is qualified to do the above already

Eh, no he's not. Nobody is. If you haven't been specifically trained to give the course, you're not qualified to give the course IMO. I don't think someone who runs a gym would be best either. I was more thinking one of the active fighters. If Paul's level of activity is anything to judge by, a fighter is much more likely to have the time available to give a course like that on short notice. Running a gym and holding down a full time job = not a lot of spare time to be giving multi-day courses.

Also...there are a lot of fighters out of work at the moment. I think it would be better placed giving them the work tbh.

kellyc

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Can't remember when we had Tony over last Kelly but it was VERY poorly attended and it does cost a bit of money to get him over to do the course so to cover the costs people need to show up. Just to clarify, its not a single course, there are 3 parts and you can only do TWO max in the one weekend as there is so much material to go through. The third and final course includes an exam which you have to pass with at least an 80% mark. EVERY fighter SHOULD do the course (or at least parts 1+2) so they know HOW to score effectively and SHOW how they are winning/controlling a fight.

yes the reason i asked that was i was at that with khannie and passed but again i did it more for learning as a fighter - but also half the ppl who did that course failed AND there are ppl (less experienced fighters i mean) that are judging fights that did not attend the course at all, which is why i asked was there another one maybe they attended that? and where i do understand that on the day ppl do not show up etc etc, and ppl are just helping out, but u cant blame lads/corner being annoyed when they get a questionable decision by a judge who may not even know how to judge properly at all!

but its good that this is being discussed an ideas being thrown about as i do feel something needs to be done going forward :)

Eddy L

Passing the course means ****,if my gran sat the course i tink she could pass,its like a health and safety pass for a building site or the level one course with the IABA idot proof.

Judging like fighting is a skill you could get lucky and have a few one sideded fights or knock outs,but it is really hard to judge a close fight balance skill effect all come in.But i supose there has to be trial and error give guys a go if they stink at it move them on.Just because you pass the course does not mean you are a good judge you have to follow up the course and study the sport go to bangkok and follow it up over there.

The sport in Ireland has come on tonnes the past decade but where still a long way behind the UK scene where they have some top judges and refs guys who have done what i have said above study this side of the sport guys like tony and chris podesta theres a lot more to and they get paid well.

It seems now a days with the IMC they want you to shape like a Thai do 15 minute wai khrus roll your shorts tap ur toe drop your hands every 15 secs smile knod your head and touch your oponents gloves throw the odd lazy teep and again touch your oponents gloves thats seems to be how you win fights in the IMC.Westerns will neva beat thais fighting the Thai way yes adapt to the way thais train and fight learn how to clinch as best you can but fight your own way.

kellyc

pretty sure ur gran would not have passed it

and i didnt say u would be a good judge by passing but at least it is a start for ppl who dont have a clue, my point was ppl who have only had a few fights (mostly amateur) so are inexperienced and have not done the course (which we did actually learn a few things from ) are judging fights and possibly scoring completely wrong

there are plenty of lads who did not do the course and are excellent well knowledgeable fighters and judges - this thread is about inexperienced ppl/fighters judging fights, and realistic solutions (everyone cant go to bangkok) as to how to get everyone clued up on scoring.

j walsh

Aw John I didn't realise that was you, wasn't with it at all haha.
Well thanks cause I always try and run my shows properly am and pro.
well if I saw anyone txtin while judging I'd say it to him because that's totally unacceptable. And I think if anyone saw someone doing this then they should say it as well, mind I never have seen it. Lucky for them

scotty22

i didnt see this person txting myself i was told the day after the event...and i never said it was a man

also i agree with u kelly not all people can go to thailand and i dont think u have to go to become a better fighter though it wood help dramatically of course

scotty22

think about this if i go to thailand for 3 weeks to train and im just guessing on this as ive never been

run in the morning = 1 hour
bag work = 1 hour
pads = 1 hour
clinch and situps etc = 1 hour
(every day)

ok thats 4 hours a day by say 5 days for two of the weeks and 6 days for the last week in total about 64 hours of training over the 3 weeks

now here in ireland lets say i train 3 days a week and run 2 days as i stated b4 on this thread

training = 1 and half hours
running = 1 hour

ok thats 6 and half hours a week...so over 3 weeks its 19 and a half hours

so basically my points is that 3 weeks in thailand is like nearly 11 weeks or nearly 3 months here so is thailand that much better...plus add in the factor that u are building up good momemtum training every day...im sure if i spent all that time here in ireland with any of our very good coaches i wood improve just as much as if i went to thailand

now dont get me wrong im sure i wood probly be better after 3 weeks in thailand than ireland due to learning the culture atmosphere etc and they have some of the best coaches and fighters also in the world

kellyc

u can learn from your great coaches here :) and fighters in your gym who have lived and fought in thailand! u would need more than 3 weeks in thailand for it to make a big difference in my personal opinion anyway (who went for 3 weeks ) i learnt stuff but nothing that different from what im being taught now it was jus drilled into me more as there everyday and for longer periods of time haha

plus u can still go thailand and come back rubbish haha - not everyone who goes there comes back a deadly fighter lol

ur lucky anyway scotty being in such a great gym with experienced fighters - they can teach ya all ya need to know - the problem is probably ppl not asking or thinking they know (re judging i mean)

scotty22

i agree 100 percent kelly...i was just giving an example of the 3 week time period so as not to make the calculations too hard for me

j walsh

Well John tbh i wouldn't allow you fight if you were my fighter, as I think most fighters around are training 5 to 6 days a week for fights and i think u'd be under a big disadvantage in only training 3 days a week n fighting them.
As far as Thailand goes the sheer quanity is the biggest factor, no work and train 2 or 3 times a day and of course with great trainers makes a massive difference, if you had a fight coming up and went there for 3 wks just before i think it would make a huge difference..

Khannie

j walsh wrote: »

Well John tbh i wouldn't allow you fight if you were my fighter, as I think most fighters around are training 5 to 6 days a week for fights and i think u'd be under a big disadvantage in only training 3 days a week n fighting them.

And still he wins.

That's what we call an attempted trolling there John. Let's try and stick to the topic please folks.

Havo

Khannie wrote: »

And still he wins.

He's obviously doing something right; he's never lost!
He's a lethal fighter, got some unreal kicks on him. Wouldnt like to step in the ring with him....

scotty22

i train 3 days a week in the club but i run 2 other days...so to me thats 5 days a week..over training is worse than under training in my mind

enuf about me now cheers...i dont like being centre of attention

j walsh

Hee hee fair enough but never mean't to be trolling, and Paul knows me better than that. your defo doing things right John, no doubt, if it aint broken dont fix it......:D

mugger

Dont worry scotty iam fairly sure ur in no danger of over training there lol but you are a busy man and ur right about the over training its not good

and as for going to thailand,they are the masters in the clinch thats were you will learn the most over there,if you train at it like they do which can be 1-2hours a day depending on the gym,ur kicks and knees will get better as instead of doing them afew hundred times a week at home you do them afew thousand times in thailand but i think in the time we have a home and in the west we train better with it,most thai gyms train the same way they did years ago,but i think most people should be trying to mix the good things the thais do with what we know more about and/or more aware about but this is getting off topic :rolleyes:

Eddy L

This topic is getting really boring now.Bridgestone guys you have made your point,every one knows lets move on.

Quiet clearly you guys aint happy with recent decsions,theses things happen it swings in roundabouts and one day you guys will get the dodgy descions in your favor.There has been 5-6 of you guys posted and even the mod from your gym has weighed in on it.