How do I leave Christianity?

AndywK

Well as the title says.

I was baptized into the religion but never had any interest in it. Infact I still can't comprehend how people can believe it(yes you guessed it,I'm an Atheist). I have no problems with people having faith but this is not for me.

I am against the aspect of religion personally, so I do not want to have a Catholic Funeral etc...... Who does one contact to be removed from the religion. The local priest or is there some sort of board or something?

Thanks in advance.

im invisible

do nothing....

Zombrex

There is apparently a formal process to leave the Catholic church, but you could simply say 'no religion' when asked by any State body, such as when you enter hospital. That should be enough to ensure that if anything happens to you you are not accidently given religious treatment.

AndywK

No I actually want my name removed from all traces of religion. So I would be a fully fledged atheist. There has to be a way I can actually leave the religion since I was baptized into it.

This isn't a personal attack against the church, it would be the same if I was Buddhist,Mormon,Cao Dai etc...... Just in case anyone takes the post the wrong way or tries to convince me to "stay"

Thanks again

mikemac

AndywK wrote: »

No I actually want my name removed from all traces of religion.

Are you including the parish register when you were baptized?
As they will not remove you from this, it was a record at the time

AndywK

Really? Interesting....So there is no process to unregister so to say?

I just want to be fully recognized as an atheist, nothing more, nothing less. But I just want my name completley dissasociated with every aspect of the church. The more I can get away from it the better, keep the advice coming!

Orion

This should be in A&A for starters. Assuming the church you are in is the RC church then no - there is no longer a way to leave it - formal defection is no longer possible.

For ceremoniesm - including funerals - you can choose your own. You do not need to have a religious ceremony for anything.

To be an atheist defecting is not a pre-requisite. You won't be grilled at atheist conventions. Atheism is what you are - not what you were. There's no membership T&Cs to make you a 'fully-fledged' member with a card and all. You are an atheist because you have no belief in a supernatural being. That's good enough.

AndywK

Great answer, thank you.

I am aware there is no Athiest club nor I am looking for acceptance into any Atheist communitites.

It was something I personally wanted to do(being removed from the register as a whole)

Is there a reason why you can no longer formally remove yourself asides for the reason of record keeping?
Yes I am an RC, should of stated that.

Very informative, thank you.

Treora

There was once a formal exit contract, but a year ago the catholic church stopped accepting the formal declaration of exit. Basically, like FF, once you are on their books they wanted to keep you there so they can lobby the government and say they have huge numbers (of people that ignore them).

atheistireland.org is a place to start, in the USA it is so severe that people use exit groups so their families don't turn on them or so they can re-settle in another non-bible belt city.

Any hoo, Labour and Shatter will squish the CC in a PC manner. So nostrodamus's prediction that this is the last bishop of Rome may come to pass for Ireland. Image, we could live in a country that observes religion as much as Japan or Norway or Sweden or Finland or Denmark. Crazy countries..

Helix

AndywK wrote: »

I just want to be fully recognized as an atheist

an atheist isnt a thing you are, its a term for the things you arent

Orion

AndywK wrote: »

Is there a reason why you can no longer formally remove yourself asides for the reason of record keeping?

Because they decided you couldn't anymore.
http://www.countmeout.ie/suspension/

It's a club you can't get out of once you're enrolled in it (without your permission).

I'm planning on going apostate and getting excommunicated if they refuse to allow my defection. The only problem with that is that apostasy is a rejection of a former belief whereas I never considered myself to be a believer in the first place. Same applies to defection tbh - I was enlisted in the ranks of the RCC without my knowledge or consent yet I am denied to opportunity to reject this.

AndywK

Helix wrote: »

an atheist isnt a thing you are, its a term for the things you arent

I am aware of that, I am just phrasing my words wrong. My apologies

alex73

If you don't believe in Christ or Christianity then you have pretty much left it already..

Your thread is going nowhere.

Fanny Cradock

With the mods permission, I'm going to move this over to the A&A forum.

robindch

Orion wrote: »

I was enlisted in the ranks of the RCC without my knowledge or consent yet I am denied to opportunity to reject this.

You are free to reject the basis -- referred to as an "ontological bond" by the Vatican -- upon which they refuse to release you.

For a laugh, you could set up your own competing religion with its own similar ontological process which turns all catholics into non-catholics and see whether they still support the idea of an unbreakable, er, ontological bond.

This approach is not guaranteed to work.

Cool Mo D

You leave the church simply by not believing. The church will always consider you a member (albeit a lapsed member), but seeing as you've already rejected their fundamental beliefs, it hardly matters what they think.

philologos

The second you don't believe is when you leave the universal Christian church as far as I see it.

kylith

Orion wrote: »

I'm planning on going apostate and getting excommunicated if they refuse to allow my defection. The only problem with that is that apostasy is a rejection of a former belief whereas I never considered myself to be a believer in the first place. Same applies to defection tbh - I was enlisted in the ranks of the RCC without my knowledge or consent yet I am denied to opportunity to reject this.

Let me know how you get on with this. I put off defecting until it was too late, so I've been kind of thinking of finding a friendly bishop who'll let me shove him so I can get excommunicated.

amacachi

Just to counter those saying that there's no way to leave the Catholic Church, a mate of mine got onto the diocese and got some forms printed to renounce membership.

The Mad Hatter

amacachi wrote: »

Just to counter those saying that there's no way to leave the Catholic Church, a mate of mine got onto the diocese and got some forms printed to renounce membership.

The Catholic Church aren't doing that any more.

AndywK

Very informative indeed.

For those saying not believeing in the faith is enough...well for me it is not.


Just more so a personal closure thing to get my name removed from the records, seeing as it can't be done it's a tad bit dissapointing.

Apologies to mods for intially posting this in the wrong form.

Out of curiosity, is this not illegal in any way shape or form.
Surely if I joined a subscription service(and for arguements sake it was free) and I asked to unsubscribe they couldn't turn around to me and say "No,you will be a subscriber forever" etc...

There could be better examples but I just had myself a spiked cigarette

MrPudding

AndywK wrote: »

Very informative indeed.

For those saying not believeing in the faith is enough...well for me it is not.


Just more so a personal closure thing to get my name removed from the records, seeing as it can't be done it's a tad bit dissapointing.

Apologies to mods for intially posting this in the wrong form.

Out of curiosity, is this not illegal in any way shape or form.
Surely if I joined a subscription service(and for arguements sake it was free) and I asked to unsubscribe they couldn't turn around to me and say "No,you will be a subscriber forever" etc...

There could be better examples but I just had myself a spiked cigarette

It is a tricky one. The Main problem is that the baptismal record is a record of an event that happened. Whether or not you agreed to it, the baptism happened. The church argues, I believe, that as it is a record of an event that happened it cannot be changed.

There is some speculation that there might be something one could do around how this stored information is used. That seems reasonable, but I am not sure anyone outside the church really understands how they use information they hold about people.

I think the information commissioner might offer the best option for someone trying to extricate themselves from the church, but whilst I think it might offer the best option, it still might not work. It would be interesting to see how a text case Played out.

MrP

krudler

amacachi wrote: »

Just to counter those saying that there's no way to leave the Catholic Church, a mate of mine got onto the diocese and got some forms printed to renounce membership.

they've changed it so you cant do this now, dirty scumbags that they are

Galvasean

AndywK wrote: »

Out of curiosity, is this not illegal in any way shape or form.
Surely if I joined a subscription service(and for arguements sake it was free) and I asked to unsubscribe they couldn't turn around to me and say "No,you will be a subscriber forever" etc...

Look at it this way, for it to be illegal we would have to be acknowledging that they are holding your soul against it's will... and thereby admitting taht sous are real :pac:

philologos

I find it interesting why so many people care about what a church which they claim to have nothing to do with thinks about them. The Census is the most important record of religious belief in state policy. If church figures happen to grossly disagree with the census figures then it is obvious to any observer that the church figures are wrong.

krudler

philologos wrote: »

I find it interesting why so many people care about what a church which they claim to have nothing to do with thinks about them. The Census is the most important record of religious belief in state policy. If church figures happen to grossly disagree with the census figures then it is obvious to any observer that the church figures are wrong.

if you left a club but they still counted you as a member in the AGM would you be happy?

philologos

krudler wrote: »

if you left a club but they still counted you as a member in the AGM would you be happy?

Honestly, I wouldn't care.

In the scenario of the RCC the defection didn't even guarantee non-membership of the RCC, nor did it mean that your baptism was invalid. One could ask what was the point of it other than to register as a discontented member rather than just a regular member. Perhaps I'm wrong but that was my understanding of it.

Dont be at yourself

philologos wrote: »

I find it interesting why so many people care about what a church which they claim to have nothing to do with thinks about them. The Census is the most important record of religious belief in state policy. If church figures happen to grossly disagree with the census figures then it is obvious to any observer that the church figures are wrong.

Cool. Hope it's alright that I count you as a member of a club I've just started. We'll be staging rallies against homosexuality and women's rights. Don't worry if you can't make it, you're still in the club!

goose2005

Treora wrote: »

There was once a formal exit contract, but a year ago the catholic church stopped accepting the formal declaration of exit. Basically, like FF, once you are on their books they wanted to keep you there so they can lobby the government and say they have huge numbers (of people that ignore them).

I noted a Catholic report on their numbers - it said things like "only 40% of Catholics attend Mass" and even "95% of Catholics believe in God" - um, guys, it doesn't sound like all of these people are Catholics. However, it would chime with the RCC's habit of placing adherence to the institution (even only paper membership) above actual actions or beliefs. Probably only about a tenth of "Catholics" actually do the basics (avoid major sins, weekly Mass, regular confession, raise children in "the faith")

loconnor1001

AndywK wrote: »

Well as the title says.

I was baptized into the religion but never had any interest in it. Infact I still can't comprehend how people can believe it(yes you guessed it,I'm an Atheist). I have no problems with people having faith but this is not for me.

I am against the aspect of religion personally, so I do not want to have a Catholic Funeral etc...... Who does one contact to be removed from the religion. The local priest or is there some sort of board or something?

Thanks in advance.

Are you serious?

If the RCC don't allow you to leave, does this mean you can't convert to another religion either? Or is this just a way of making atheism difficult?

philologos

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Cool. Hope it's alright that I count you as a member of a club I've just started. We'll be staging rallies against homosexuality and women's rights. Don't worry if you can't make it, you're still in the club!

My point is that it would be just a claim with no weight.

Karsini: Surely atheism is no more difficult than deciding that you don't believe in a god. Likewise joining another faith is as simple as going to another congregation.

philologos

philologos wrote: »

My point is that it would be just a claim with no weight.

Karsini: Surely atheism is no more difficult than deciding that you don't believe in a god. Likewise joining another faith is as simple as going to another congregation.

Ah, so is there no official "conversion" as such? You just go to the new congregation?

philologos

Karsini wrote: »

Ah, so is there no official "conversion" as such? You just go to the new congregation?

Depends on the religion. For example most Jewish congregations will expect circumcision bar Reform Jews, and most Islamic congregations will expect you to make your Shahadah, but none that will require a letter from your bishop to say that they recognise you as non-Catholic. As for other Christian denominations it is simply joining a church.

Dont be at yourself

philologos wrote: »

My point is that it would be just a claim with no weight.

Right, but claims with no weight are the reason we have libel and slander laws. People and organisations can't just make claims without weight.

But if you're really not bothered, that's cool. My club that you're a member of are going to steal some orphan's puppies tomorrow evening. See you there (or not)!

philologos

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Right, but claims with no weight are the reason we have libel and slander laws. People and organisations can't just make claims without weight.

But if you're really not bothered, that's cool. My club that you're a member of are going to steal some orphan's puppies tomorrow evening. See you there (or not)!

I don't think you're understanding why I wouldn't be bothered if I were in such a situation. I wouldn't be particularly bothered precisely because I know that that claim has no validity, I know that the statistics that really count are census figures. If I decided to leave the current church I'm in and they happened to have records left over about me I wouldn't be all that upset. Heck, I wouldn't be all that surprised. Although I do doubt that my current church would use those figures over figures of active church attendance, participation or the census results.

Sarky

Stealing orphans' puppies you say? I love stomping on the dreams of innocent children, can I join this club?

Dont be at yourself

philologos wrote: »

I don't think you're understanding why I wouldn't be bothered if I were in such a situation. I wouldn't be particularly bothered precisely because I know that that claim has no validity, I know that the statistics that really count are census figures. If I decided to leave the current church I'm in and they happened to have records left over about me I wouldn't be all that upset. Heck, I wouldn't be all that surprised. Although I do doubt that my current church would use those figures over figures of active church attendance, participation or the census results.

Do you understand why people would be bothered? Regardless of whether you know that a claim made about you has no validity, it's still a claim that is being made and is being heard by people who won't view it with as much skepticism.

Census figures are obviously the key numbers looked at my governments (or at least, they should be!), but they're not the only figures. The church counts me as a Catholic, regardless of what I put in the census.

amacachi

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

The Catholic Church aren't doing that any more.

krudler wrote: »

they've changed it so you cant do this now, dirty scumbags that they are

Coupla weeks ago they seemed up for it and sent the form and all.

philologos

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Do you understand why people would be bothered? Regardless of whether you know that a claim made about you has no validity, it's still a claim that is being made and is being heard by people who won't view it with as much skepticism.

As I've said, the skepticism will come in when people start to see imbalances by comparing census figures with church figures, or with church attendance figures. I don't think it's much to get stressed about.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Census figures are obviously the key numbers looked at my governments (or at least, they should be!), but they're not the only figures. The church counts me as a Catholic, regardless of what I put in the census.

I've not heard of a case where the Government has looked to church figures above their own census figures, can you?

The RCC is a church that you've decided you have nothing to do with. Do what you've decided to do in full if you wish to disregard the RCC in your life. If they decide to be dishonest with their figures they'll be caught out. It's a curious comparison that I note that ex-RCC's are much more interested in wiping every last record whereas people of other backgrounds who lapse don't seem to be as interested.

robindch

philologos wrote: »

[...] most Jewish congregations will expect circumcision bar Reform Jews, and most Islamic congregations will expect you to make your Shahadah, but none that will require a letter from your bishop to say that they recognise you as non-Catholic. As for other Christian denominations it is simply joining a church.

I'd love to hear you explain that to a Martian.

Dont be at yourself

philologos wrote: »

As I've said, the skepticism will come in when people start to see imbalances by comparing census figures with church figures, or with church attendance figures. I don't think it's much to get stressed about.

I'm not stressed about it. But it is annoying that I am affiliated with an organisation that promotes completely opposing views to my own on a variety of personal freedom and human rights issues.

I've not heard of a case where the Government has looked to church figures above their own census figures, can you?

I don't know. But there's more to it than just the statistics governments use. The church use their own figures, and count anybody who has been baptised.

The RCC is a church that you've decided you have nothing to do with. Do what you've decided to do in full if you wish to disregard the RCC in your life. If they decide to be dishonest with their figures they'll be caught out.

They are dishonest, though. I'm counted by them as a member of their church, even though I don't want to be.

It's a curious comparison that I note that ex-RCC's are much more interested in wiping every last record whereas people of other backgrounds who lapse don't seem to be as interested.

Perhaps that's because few other churches are quite as disgusting as the RCC.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

I'd love to hear you explain that to a Martian.

Why the hell would a microbe care?!!?

robindch

philologos wrote: »

It's a curious comparison that I note that ex-RCC's are much more interested in wiping every last record whereas people of other backgrounds who lapse don't seem to be as interested.

If you check, I think you'll find that ex-rcc's are disgusted that the Vatican still counts them amongst its supporters.

It took me five hours from learning that my snowflake had secured a place in an Educate Together school to me phoning the church where I was baptized (obviously without my informed consent) to request that I be no longer considered one of their supporters.

It would have been five minutes, but it was a busy day at work that day.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

Why the hell would a microbe care?!!?

Microbe? Didn't you hear?

vibe666

loconnor1001 wrote: »

Are you serious?

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

I find it interesting why so many people care about what a church which they claim to have nothing to do with thinks about them. The Census is the most important record of religious belief in state policy. If church figures happen to grossly disagree with the census figures then it is obvious to any observer that the church figures are wrong.

given the gross atrocities performed by them, maybe people are just upset that such an organisation is claiming to be doing things in THEIR name for one.

For two... people are leaving the church to send that church a message about how they feel about such gross misconduct. If the church ignores that and considers them to be still "members" then that is the church telling them that "We do not care what you do say or think... we will just put our hands over our ears and go lalalalala". Ignoring peoples choice to leave is simply insulting and there is utility in pointing that out so people can see what they are truly like. A sick, perverse group of insular people entirely disconnected from their "flock" and they do not care that they are either.

AndywK

Good discussion here folks,

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that if I don't want to be a member of affilated with a group then I would have the right to not be asssociated with said group.

I am aware of the Cenus figures etc... But that doesent matter. I want to leave the church ye see.

Thanks again

Denalihighway

guys, has this amendment to canon law (gives me the shivers just saying it...) been viewed as a deliberate attempt by the RCC to complicate the process of leaving the church?

philologos

AndywK wrote: »

Good discussion here folks,

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that if I don't want to be a member of affilated with a group then I would have the right to not be asssociated with said group.

I am aware of the Cenus figures etc... But that doesent matter. I want to leave the church ye see.

Thanks again

The thing is that you have the right as of now to not be associated with said group. They may have whatever statistics or documents they want to say that person X was baptised here, but that doesn't mean diddly squat ultimately if you've decided to reject that.

BrianOFlanagan

AndywK,, if you figure out how to do this keep us posted. I'd be interested in doing the same thing purely as a matter of principle.