NPPR help!!

Leslie91

I had heard there was to be a tax on NPPRs but did not know that it was up and running. I've been registered with the PRTB since day 1 (unlike many I'm sure). I just received a letter from the local Co.Co. advising me that I have to pay an annual charge of €200. I've since created an account on the NPPR site and it is telling me that I am liable for the charge (and penalties) going back to end March 2010!!!. It was not an NPPR on 31 March 2009.

Anyone else get caught by this crap?. I am appealing.

This NPPR is another quango right?, if the PRTB were charged with taking this annual charge then (1) there would be no issue and (2) we would have one less quango.

markpb

Leslie91 wrote: »

This NPPR is another quango right?, if the PRTB were charged with taking this annual charge then (1) there would be no issue and (2) we would have one less quango.

NPPR isn't a quango - it's a tax payable to your local authority.

amdublin

Prtb and nppr are separate agencies.

As a landlord you need to be registered with both. And pay the nppr.

Treehouse72

Leslie91 wrote: »

This NPPR is another quango right?, if the PRTB were charged with taking this annual charge then (1) there would be no issue and (2) we would have one less quango.

No. The NPPR is administered by local authorities.

And it's not "crap". It's a sensible and fair measure designed to control the rampant cretinism that got this country into such a mess.

Leslie91

amdublin wrote: »

Prtb and nppr are separate agencies.

As a landlord you need to be registered with both. And pay the nppr.

That's the point. The PRTB could collect this charge. No need for NPPR. Another effin quango that's all it is.

Leslie91

Treehouse72 wrote: »

No. The NPPR is administered by local authorities.

And it's not "crap". It's a sensible and fair measure designed to control the rampant cretinism that got this country into such a mess.

Too little, far too late methinks...

Treehouse72

Leslie91 wrote: »

That's the point. The PRTB could collect this charge. No need for NPPR. Another effin quango that's all it is.

Leslie, NPPR = Non Principle Private Residence.

It is not an acronym for a quango.

Leslie91

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Leslie, NPPR = Non Principle Private Residence.

It is not an acronym for a quango.

Apologies your'e right. I take it back, it is not a quango. But the NPPR charge should/could be better administered by the PRTB.

lainey316

Not all NPPRs are rentals. Some are holiday homes, some are unoccupied inheritances, some are (no, really, still) city pads. PRTB is irrelevant in all such cases.

amdublin

Leslie91 wrote: »

Apologies your'e right. I take it back, it is not a quango. But the NPPR charge should/could be better administered by the PRTB.

But why

The prtb is related to the relationship between the LL and the tenant.
The nppr is related to tax.

Why would an agency dealing with tenant disputes collect tax

The_Conductor

Leslie91 wrote: »

Apologies your'e right. I take it back, it is not a quango. But the NPPR charge should/could be better administered by the PRTB.

Fewer than 1-in-4 properties registered to pay the NPPR are occupied rental propertie. It is a tax thats paid directly to local councils and authorities. I don't understand why you imagine the PRTB should be involved in this at all?

The_Conductor

OP- just ring the number on the website for the particular council that you're in. There is no need to appeal it or go through any rigmarole- they can override it for you. It may necessitate setting up a new account- but they'll happily talk you through it. Give them a ring......

D3PO

Leslie91 wrote: »

I had heard there was to be a tax on NPPRs but did not know that it was up and running. I've been registered with the PRTB since day 1 (unlike many I'm sure). I just received a letter from the local Co.Co. advising me that I have to pay an annual charge of €200. I've since created an account on the NPPR site and it is telling me that I am liable for the charge (and penalties) going back to end March 2010!!!. It was not an NPPR on 31 March 2009.

Anyone else get caught by this crap?. I am appealing.

This NPPR is another quango right?, if the PRTB were charged with taking this annual charge then (1) there would be no issue and (2) we would have one less quango.

How is it crap. Have you been living under a rock. There have been newspaper ads and radio ads every year for weeks and weeks reminding people of the deadline to pay.

Ignorance isnt an excuse. Appeal all you like fact is you owe the money and the penalties.

Leslie91

smccarrick wrote: »

OP- just ring the number on the website for the particular council that you're in. There is no need to appeal it or go through any rigmarole- they can override it for you. It may necessitate setting up a new account- but they'll happily talk you through it. Give them a ring......

Did you have any joy/know of someone who got it written off?.

I called them, attempted to appeal, went round in circles for months.

The bottom line is that there is NO appeals process for the NPPR. None. In fairness to my local council they did allow a small amount off the penalties but not as much as I thought would be fair.

I've now paid the 2012 charge too, and the household charge and am still renting to rent (at a loss).

To those of you having a go, the NPPR charge was not set up to attack the likes of me and yet I am being royally screwed by it. I've had this admitted to me by both the council and a TD.

not even wrong

Leslie91 wrote: »

Did you have any joy/know of someone who got it written off?.

I called them, attempted to appeal, went round in circles for months.

Appealing on what grounds exactly?

Leslie91

not even wrong wrote: »

Appealing on what grounds exactly?

This comes back to the no invoice/bill argument you are hearing ref the household charge today.

The onus is on the person liable to come forth and pay up. In my case I was unaware (no BS) that the NPPR charge was in existence, it was only when I was contacted via the PRTB that I learned of it. I immediately went to pay the €200 and it was refused because there were penalties owing.

Yes... I know it is my responsibility yada yada yada... but our personal circumstances meant we had a case (council and TD admitted such and agreed), yet there was no appeals process to go through. Another example of poorly thought out and rushed thru legislation.

wccnppr

hi
we just got notification that we owe €4,500 in arrears on nppr.
this goes up to €7,000 on sept 1st.
how are we supposed to pay when husband on dole.
he inherited house from his mother.
didn't even know nppr existed.
has anyone paid these penalties or worked something out with their council.?
appreciate any help.

wccnppr

just another way of fleecing the poor unfortunates who had nothing to do with ruining the country.
my husband on dole. he just inherited family home. very small house. he now has to pay €4,220 now or €7,220 on sept 1st.
not a hope of paying this money. wish he hadn't been left the house now.
pulling my hair out as to the consequences of not paying. any advice?

athtrasna

wccnppr wrote: »

just another way of fleecing the poor unfortunates who had nothing to do with ruining the country.
my husband on dole. he just inherited family home. very small house. he now has to pay €4,220 now or €7,220 on sept 1st.
not a hope of paying this money. wish he hadn't been left the house now.
pulling my hair out as to the consequences of not paying. any advice?

Just as in recently or just as in only? How long ago did he inherit it?

Bepolite

wccnppr wrote: »

hi
we just got notification that we owe €4,500 in arrears on nppr.
this goes up to €7,000 on sept 1st.
how are we supposed to pay when husband on dole.
he inherited house from his mother.
didn't even know nppr existed.
has anyone paid these penalties or worked something out with their council.?
appreciate any help.

I do feel for you and this is yet another example of a tax hitting the poorer harder. That said the tax is there to try an rebalance the market to a degree. If you're renting out the property then, unintentional or not, you're landlords and you need to make sure you're armed with all the info you need to run your business.

I would suggest looking to sell the property and seeing if the local council would be prepared to wait in applying penalties until this is done and you're able to settle the debt.

amdublin

wccnppr wrote: »

just another way of fleecing the poor unfortunates who had nothing to do with ruining the country.
my husband on dole. he just inherited family home. very small house. he now has to pay €4,220 now or €7,220 on sept 1st.
not a hope of paying this money. wish he hadn't been left the house now.
pulling my hair out as to the consequences of not paying. any advice?

Is the house rented out?

Would you consider selling in order to clear this debt?

fash

wccnppr wrote: »

he just inherited family home. very small house. he now has to pay €4,220 now or €7,220 on sept 1st.

If he just inherited it- it inherited it in the last year or so- there is no nppr to pay.
If he inherited in the last 2 or 3 years, you can half or quarter the nppr to be paid

D3PO

Bepolite wrote: »

I do feel for you and this is yet another example of a tax hitting the poorer harder.

How is it hitting the poor harder. If I inherited a house and couldnt pay the €200 a year it costs in NPPR it would be easilty covered by

a) the rent
b) sale of the asset.

Ive no sympathy for anybody whose due to have a 7 grand charge put against their property. They thought they were being clever refusing to pay and are getting exactly what they deserve.

Good enough for them.

The_Conductor

Bepolite wrote: »

I do feel for you and this is yet another example of a tax hitting the poorer harder.

How so? Its a staggered tax- the lower the value of the property- the lower your payments. If anything- its a tax on those living in Dublin- more so than a tax on the poorer- as a hovel in Dublin could be valued at more than a palatial house down the country. The issue I have with the tax is there is no cognisance of the property- its all to do with values. A fairer system would ascribe half the tax to the house size/type- and the other half to the value of the property.

Bepolite wrote: »

That said the tax is there to try an rebalance the market to a degree.

Nope. Its an attempt to remove government supports to local councils, by making them self funding. The lower property densities of rural areas are recognised in the 15% redistribution of taxes from the central kitty all taxes are paid into.

Bepolite wrote: »

If you're renting out the property then, unintentional or not, you're landlords and you need to make sure you're armed with all the info you need to run your business.

Big time. A major issue in this country is amateur landlords.

Bepolite wrote: »

I would suggest looking to sell the property and seeing if the local council would be prepared to wait in applying penalties until this is done and you're able to settle the debt.

Its nothing to do with the local council anymore- its gone to the Revenue Commissioners.

I don't accept that people didn't know they had to pay the tax- and are now wailing about the penalties that are being applied. Its been discussed ad nauseum in the media for literally years. The issue is a significant cohort of people who thought they'd get away without paying it- who are now getting caught out- as the Revenue Commissioners are now tasked with collecting the arrears- so these refuseniks no longer have anywhere to hide.

quadrifoglio verde

wccnppr wrote: »

just another way of fleecing the poor unfortunates who had nothing to do with ruining the country.
my husband on dole. he just inherited family home. very small house. he now has to pay €4,220 now or €7,220 on sept 1st.
not a hope of paying this money. wish he hadn't been left the house now.
pulling my hair out as to the consequences of not paying. any advice?

Don't pay and let it go to 7220 where it'll exist as a charge against the property for 12 years.
Or sell now to raise the money as well as giving yourselves some much needed breathing space.
Or contact the council and arrange a payment plan.

I don't buy this notion that he "just" inherited it. If he did he wouldn't be liable for any of these charges as he was to the owner of the property when the charges were due.

drumswan

The_Conductor wrote: »

If you're trolling looking for a response- be careful.......

You deleted my post and then quoted it? Thats a new one, even for you.

People who own houses with no mortgage on them are not poor. Is that point OK with you?

Bepolite

D3PO wrote: »

How is it hitting the poor harder. If I inherited a house and couldnt pay the €200 a year it costs in NPPR it would be easilty covered by

a) the rent
b) sale of the asset.

Ive no sympathy for anybody whose due to have a 7 grand charge put against their property. They thought they were being clever refusing to pay and are getting exactly what they deserve.

Good enough for them.

The_Conductor wrote: »

How so? Its a staggered tax- the lower the value of the property- the lower your payments. If anything- its a tax on those living in Dublin- more so than a tax on the poorer- as a hovel in Dublin could be valued at more than a palatial house down the country. The issue I have with the tax is there is no cognisance of the property- its all to do with values. A fairer system would ascribe half the tax to the house size/type- and the other half to the value of the property.

I assumed the OP had the property rented and was having an issue covering the inheritance tax associated with getting the house. Why this tax hits the poorer harder is if they acquire an asset like this they are almost always going to be in a position to have to sell it. Someone better off will be able to absorb the front loaded costs associated with renting it out and keep the asset.

D3PO

Bepolite wrote: »

. Why this tax hits the poorer harder is if they acquire an asset like this they are almost always going to be in a position to have to sell it. Someone better off will be able to absorb the front loaded costs associated with renting it out and keep the asset.

Im sorry but what a load of nonsense.

Somebody renting out an inherited house couldnt afford €200 at the outset ....... ?

Gimme a break.

theres no mention that inheritance tax was a factor here and if it was then so be it you sell the asset. Give its a "cheap house" theres very little likelyhood any inheritance tax was due anyway.

garhjw

I thought the NPPR is being collected by the local councils while the household charge and LPT is collected by revenue?

Can someone clarify that? Number 13 here indicates it is the local council http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/faqs/local-authorities.html

Bepolite

D3PO wrote: »

Im sorry but what a load of nonsense.

Somebody renting out an inherited house couldnt afford €200 at the outset ....... ?

Gimme a break.

theres no mention that inheritance tax was a factor here and if it was then so be it you sell the asset. Give its a "cheap house" theres very little likelyhood any inheritance tax was due anyway.

There are a myriad of factors that hit poorer people who become unintentional landlords. As I've said they are forced into a situation where they have to sell. It could very well be the OP can't sell the house etc. etc.

The vitriol and bitterness in this forum sometimes goes beyond a joke. I do wonder if many would be better actually taking their agendas and doing some good with them rather than just keep hammering away here that anyone that takes an alternative point of view while trying to offer a bit of constructive advice.

quadrifoglio verde

garhjw wrote: »

I thought the NPPR is being collected by the local councils while the household charge and LPT is collected by revenue?

Can someone clarify that? Number 13 here indicates it is the local council http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/faqs/local-authorities.html

It is the council. However if it isn't settled by the September, a charge is then registered against the property and rightly so.

Whether you agree or disagree with a tax, it doesn't mean you can decide not to pay it.

That's why the penalties are so high.
The same will happen with the people who thought they were smart not paying the household tax, eventually it'll come back to bite them in the ass

quadrifoglio verde

Bepolite wrote: »

There are a myriad of factors that hit poorer people who become unintentional landlords. As I've said they are forced into a situation where they have to sell. It could very well be the OP can't sell the house etc. etc.

The vitriol and bitterness in this forum sometimes goes beyond a joke. I do wonder if many would be better actually taking their agendas and doing some good with them rather than just keep hammering away here that anyone that takes an alternative point of view while trying to offer a bit of constructive advice.

So what do you suggest happens in this case? The fines for non payment of the tax get wiped away? If you do that then why would anyone pay taxes. Sadly you have to have very punitive fines and interest on tax to encourage people to pay on time.
Secondly, your not poor if you own a house that's mortgage free, you mightn't have lots of euros in the bank account, but euros in the bank account is not a measure of wealth.

Bepolite

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

So what do you suggest happens in this case? The fines for non payment of the tax get wiped away? If you do that then why would anyone pay taxes. Sadly you have to have very punitive fines and interest on tax to encourage people to pay on time.
Secondly, your not poor if you own a house that's mortgage free, you mightn't have lots of euros in the bank account, but euros in the bank account is not a measure of wealth.

I'd suggest registering it against the property. I fully support anything which stems the ridiculous situation we have here of people being able to purchase property, claim masses of tax relief, and have an asset largely paid for by someone else.

That said it is a blinkered view to simply jump up and down going 'look what they have, look what they have!' If this is a house out in the sticks in Leitrim that has got run down over the years it's very possible the OP won't be able to sell it. As for renting it the front loaded costs could be significant in bringing it up to a standard where it can be rented - for a tiny sum owing to it's location. Not everyone is hoarding property in Dublin.

Now granted, alot of conjecture. The OP has obfuscated the situation to say the least. However taking the position that owning a house that is mortgage free removes someone from poverty is simply naive.

garhjw

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

It is the council. However if it isn't settled by the September, a charge is then registered against the property and rightly so.

Whether you agree or disagree with a tax, it doesn't mean you can decide not to pay it.

That's why the penalties are so high.
The same will happen with the people who thought they were smart not paying the household tax, eventually it'll come back to bite them in the ass

Thanks for clarifying. I am all paid up with NPPR, Household and LPT charges. I was just confused about who is collecting it.

drumswan

Bepolite wrote: »

If this is a house out in the sticks in Leitrim that has got run down over the years it's very possible the OP won't be able to sell it.

I would be extremely surprised if there was any residential property in Ireland which wouldnt fetch 7 grand at market.

However taking the position that owning a house that is mortgage free removes someone from poverty is simply naive.

Only in Ireland could someone be handed a property mortgage free and still put on the poor mouth. Its bizarre.

Bepolite

drumswan wrote: »

I would be extremely surprised if there was any residential property in Ireland which wouldnt fetch 7 grand at market.



Only in Ireland could someone be handed a property mortgage free and still put on the poor mouth. Its bizarre.

Honestly? Is this honestly your position and you can't see the issues?

Firstly there are definitely properties in Ireland that you couldn't give away. They would range from properties so rural that no one will ever buy them, to listed properties in central Dublin and Cork that have prohibitive restoration costs.

Secondly why should the OP have to sell off, potentially, their only asset to satisfy a tax debt, again potentially, far below market price. Even if we take the position that this is fair and equitable surely you see where this means that the poor are hit harder by this type of tax. To be fair that statement is a bit of truism as of course the poor are always hit harder by almost any tax.

The only avenue I can see your argument going is the same as quadrifoglio verde's that any property given mortgage free means that you're not poor. As I've stated I think this position is a bit naive. Anything thats given and then encumbered can easily put you in a worse position than when you started.

Again to reiterate I'm not against the tax, quite the contrary, renting should be vastly more expensive to landlords and the market should drive down rents (through demand as opposed to supply) so that it's exactly that - more expensive to landlords.

Investigating the links supplied above (credit to quadrifoglio verde) take you to the links associated with hardship etc. Obviously someone in possession of a lot more facts than we have can make an informed decision as to whether the OP is genuine or not.

Honestly as we squabble amongst ourselves over the scraps and the fact that someone's family home worth €300,000 has had the mortgage written down the fat cats with strings of properties are laughing at us - and rightly so.

drumswan

Bepolite wrote: »

Even if we take the position that this is fair and equitable surely you see where this means that the poor are hit harder by this type of tax.

The poor are not hit at all by this type of tax, because they do not own non principal private residence properties. If you think poor people have holiday homes or mortgage free inheritance properties you are off your rocker. I really dont know what you are talking about.

Bepolite

drumswan wrote: »

The poor are not hit at all by this type of tax, because they do not own non principal private residence properties. If you think poor people have holiday homes or mortgage free inheritance properties you are off your rocker. I really dont know what you are talking about.

No you clearly don't - fair enough no point in trying to explain it further. Sorry I didn't get through to you, lets just continue as we are - I'm doing okay and that's all that matters.

The_Morrigan

drumswan wrote: »

The poor are not hit at all by this type of tax, because they do not own non principal private residence properties. If you think poor people have holiday homes or mortgage free inheritance properties you are off your rocker. I really dont know what you are talking about.

Bepolite wrote: »

No you clearly don't - fair enough no point in trying to explain it further. Sorry I didn't get through to you, lets just continue as we are - I'm doing okay and that's all that matters.

Can you two cut it out please

MouseTail

Surely the solicitor involved in the probate advised as to the €200 charge?

The_Conductor

MouseTail wrote: »

Surely the solicitor involved in the probate advised as to the €200 charge?

Why?
Its absolutely nothing to do with the solicitor.
Its a tax- plain and simple- and most people don't go to their solicitor with tax queries.......

It really sounds like you're trying to find someone to blame.......

MouseTail

The_Conductor wrote: »

Why?
Its absolutely nothing to do with the solicitor.
Its a tax- plain and simple- and most people don't go to their solicitor with tax queries.......

It really sounds like you're trying to find someone to blame.......

The solicitor would have advised on inheritance tax I assume. Certainly ime solicitors would advise of liability for NPPR when handling probate. Of course maybe probate was done without a solicitor.

The_Conductor

MouseTail wrote: »

The solicitor would have advised on inheritance tax I assume. Certainly ime solicitors would advise of liability for NPPR when handling probate. Of course maybe probate was done without a solicitor.

If a solicitor is handling probate- as they normally do- inheritance tax is part and parcel of the equation. However- NPPR on the property, roadtax on Dad's old car, or ensuring the television license for the property is uptodate- are not......

Researching NPPR (and any other obligations)- is the remit of the owner of the property. Whether he/she bought the property, inherited the property, won it in a poker tournament, or got it through squatters rights- is neither here nor there- they have obligations- and pleading ignorance does not cut it.

handlemaster

I hope the revenue get all these tax Dodgers.... i didnt know ... appeals calling local TD etc gave me a break.

lifestooshort

correct me if I'm wrong in saying this but if you can wait it out until 31 March 2025 then the nppr liability is no longer a charge against a property which is sold?

The_Conductor

lifestooshort wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong in saying this but if you can wait it out until 31 March 2025 then the nppr liability is no longer a charge against a property which is sold?

Can you provide a reference or a link to corroborate this please.

lifestooshort

environ.ie - the following titled document appears
local government reform act 2014
nppr charge - outstanding liabilities
guidance note for city and county councils
dept of the environment, community and local government
section 2.9: certificates of discharge and exemption
also on the oireachtas site under section 32 (3), document is titled LOCAL GOVERNMENT REFORM BILL 2013

The_Conductor

Sorry- can you link to specific documents and or passages.
I've spent 10 minutes ploughing through the 194 page Local Government Reform Bill 2013 that you referred to- and I am damned if I can find what you're referring to.

The_Morrigan

lifetooshort, as a new user you can't post links, so if you send the links in pm to any of the mods we can include them in your posts.

jack_pearse

Its my understanding that that from 31st oct 2021 the charge and fines for 2009 will no longer apply to the property...And 31st march 2022 they will no longer apply for the 2010 charge etc. Is this correct?