Why can't we fire incompetent public servants?

professore

Firstly this is not a rant against the public sector.

With the announcement that Roscommon hospital was closed on the basis of a HIQA report on Mallow hospital, surely heads must roll? You cannot possibly have people making such a fundamental screw up still holding on to their job?

Remember a lot of these people sat in regulatory bodies and oversaw the explosion of bank lending and flouting of sensible rules yet did nothing, and are still in a job?

There is a litany of cases like this where the facts clearly demonstrate that there must be someone in the public sector responsible yet nothing is ever done.

dissed doc

Same reason we can't fire bankers.

It affects the general piss-headed drunken evenings with your (politicians) mates in the pub. Might create ill will and make the neighbours talk.

SC024

professore wrote: »

Firstly this is not a rant against the public sector.

With the announcement that Roscommon hospital was closed on the basis of a HIQA report on Mallow hospital, surely heads must roll? You cannot possibly have people making such a fundamental screw up still holding on to their job?

Remember a lot of these people sat in regulatory bodies and oversaw the explosion of bank lending and flouting of sensible rules yet did nothing, and are still in a job?

There is a litany of cases like this where the facts clearly demonstrate that there must be someone in the public sector responsible yet nothing is ever done.

Two words.... Trade Unions

hmmm

SC024 wrote: »

Two words.... Trade Unions

And because this is the way we've always done things. And you can't change the way we've always done things. Even though the way we've always done things dates back to the British. It's important not to rock the boat in Ireland, because the way we've always done things has worked so well for us.

4gun

Has anyone been sacked from Civil service...ever??

At least when politicians screw up big time the might have to face the possibility of not getting reelected...no wait that does happen either , usually

lmimmfn

4gun wrote: »

Has anyone been sacked from Civil service...ever??

At least when politicians screw up big time the might have to face the possibility of not getting reelected.. of being moved to the seanad where if they screw up they remain

Fixed lol

professore

Nobody making the argument against the proposition. So the politicians should make a few examples. Now is the time.

Side Show Bob

professore wrote: »

Firstly this is not a rant against the public sector.

With the announcement that Roscommon hospital was closed on the basis of a HIQA report on Mallow hospital, surely heads must roll? You cannot possibly have people making such a fundamental screw up still holding on to their job?

Remember a lot of these people sat in regulatory bodies and oversaw the explosion of bank lending and flouting of sensible rules yet did nothing, and are still in a job?

There is a litany of cases like this where the facts clearly demonstrate that there must be someone in the public sector responsible yet nothing is ever done.

Probably the same person that issued all of the rent allowances and medical cards to all of the illegal imigrants

thebman

If you watch Yes Minister, it basically explains it.

Drumpot

professore wrote: »

Nobody making the argument against the proposition. So the politicians should make a few examples. Now is the time.

Who does our teacher Taoiseach or teacherMinister for finance expect to get "sound" advice if they dont keep the same kind of upper level public servants that gave such wonderful advice to our previous government . .

Remember, working in the upper levels of public service is not a vocation, its an entitlement.

Godge

professore wrote: »

Firstly this is not a rant against the public sector.

With the announcement that Roscommon hospital was closed on the basis of a HIQA report on Mallow hospital, surely heads must roll? You cannot possibly have people making such a fundamental screw up still holding on to their job?

Remember a lot of these people sat in regulatory bodies and oversaw the explosion of bank lending and flouting of sensible rules yet did nothing, and are still in a job?

There is a litany of cases like this where the facts clearly demonstrate that there must be someone in the public sector responsible yet nothing is ever done.

Exactly who are you saying should be fired and for what?

professore

Godge wrote: »

Exactly who are you saying should be fired and for what?

Well I don't know their names ... but the examples I gave someone in the civil service must be responsible. There are lots of other examples too.

The thread is more about the principle anyway. People need to have a deterrent or they will screw up and even behave criminally as often as they feel like.

Godge

professore wrote: »

Well I don't know their names ... but the examples I gave someone in the civil service must be responsible. There are lots of other examples too.

The thread is more about the principle anyway. People need to have a deterrent or they will screw up and even behave criminally as often as they feel like.

But your example didn't make sense. You are saying that someone should be fired on the basis that they drew conclusions about Roscommon Hospital because of something they found in Mallow. What exactly is wrong with that?

Take a business example. You are an ice-cream salesman. You get a report that 30% of the 500 shops (150) you sell to are continuously reporting spoiled melted product. You visit two of them and you discover that they have changed the settings on the machine to save electricity thereby spoiling the product. You send an email to the other 148 asking them to take remedial action. Are you fired for drawing a conclusion in relation to the 148 or are you promoted for spotting a problem early and dealing with it promptly.

Going back to Roscommon, what exactly are the issues you think someone should be fired for?

queensinead

professore wrote: »

Firstly this is not a rant against the public sector.

With the announcement that Roscommon hospital was closed on the basis of a HIQA report on Mallow hospital, surely heads must roll? You cannot possibly have people making such a fundamental screw up still holding on to their job?

Remember a lot of these people sat in regulatory bodies and oversaw the explosion of bank lending and flouting of sensible rules yet did nothing, and are still in a job?

There is a litany of cases like this where the facts clearly demonstrate that there must be someone in the public sector responsible yet nothing is ever done.

It turns out HIQA did not issue a report on Roscommon hospital.

Politicians lying (allegedly).

But thanks to the pressure put on the Government by the Roscommon hospital action group, the true story is slowly coming out.

It looks like they were lying about the mortality figures too.
So the Public Servants, the doctors and medical teams, who were meant to take the hit and accept that they were "not fit for purpose", have decided to hit back and challenge the figures. See recent interventions by Dr McHugh as reported in media

Civil Servants cannot do that, but must remain silent.

Unfortunately for the rest of the Public Sector, there is no pressure group to keep up the heat and demand the truth, when Government or the right-wing tabloid media deem them "not fit for purpose", or twist the statistics, because they want to advance their own agendas

InReality

I agree a lot of people who should be sacked were not and are not.

The original reason AFAIK was to provide civil servants protection against ministers firing them at a whim.
It seems to have then broadened to all type of public servants.
Then a strong trade union movement added another layer of protection.

I think its a problem with power , and not just in the public service.
Take a look at Murdock supporting 1 person and firing 200.

Once your at a certain level , say Bank Director or Senior civil servant or hospital consultant , you somehow get away with stuff , at least in Ireland.

The trick would be to make high ups accountable , maybe steal ideas from US and other countries to do that.
But if a low ranking civil servant pissed off a minister they should have some protection.

thebman

queensinead wrote: »

It turns out HIQA did not issue a report on Roscommon hospital.

Politicians lying (allegedly).

Well from the reports I read, it seemed more like the HSE made the recommendation to the government based on the report from the HIQA so it would be the HSE that manipulated the report to suit their own agenda.

Given the government maid pre-election promises to keep the hospital open then they probably could have gone after a hospital they didn't make such a promise for and would have avoided a lot of the political flack.

It seems much more likely to be HSE incompetence rather than government incompetence IMO.

RichardAnd

4gun wrote: »

Has anyone been sacked from Civil service...ever??

It's not common but it has happened. The usual way of dealing with problem civil servants is to "promote them sideways". By this, I mean that they are moved into a job where there is but a minor possibility of them making a mess of things and where they are out of the way. When I was in the civil service some years back, there was a single section in the basement of the building that just did filing of records that really weren't all that important. The joke was that if you screwed up enough, you'd be sent to the "dungeon".

professore

Godge wrote: »

But your example didn't make sense. You are saying that someone should be fired on the basis that they drew conclusions about Roscommon Hospital because of something they found in Mallow. What exactly is wrong with that?

Take a business example. You are an ice-cream salesman. You get a report that 30% of the 500 shops (150) you sell to are continuously reporting spoiled melted product. You visit two of them and you discover that they have changed the settings on the machine to save electricity thereby spoiling the product. You send an email to the other 148 asking them to take remedial action. Are you fired for drawing a conclusion in relation to the 148 or are you promoted for spotting a problem early and dealing with it promptly.

Going back to Roscommon, what exactly are the issues you think someone should be fired for?

This is not the same analogy at all. Mallow was presented as if it was Roscommon. Basing stats on one hospital and using them for another is bad practice - who knows what was causing the alleged higher mortality rate in Mallow. They never inspected Roscommon. Anyway the fact of presenting one hospital's stats as another one is the issue here. Maybe it was Govt that did it, but again it's not the point of the thread.

As for protecting the lower down civil servant they still have unions - way more protection than the equivalent in the private sector.

thebman

professore wrote: »

This is not the same analogy at all. Mallow was presented as if it was Roscommon. Basing stats on one hospital and using them for another is bad practice - who knows what was causing the alleged higher mortality rate in Mallow. They never inspected Roscommon. Anyway the fact of presenting one hospital's stats as another one is the issue here. Maybe it was Govt that did it, but again it's not the point of the thread.

As for protecting the lower down civil servant they still have unions - way more protection than the equivalent in the private sector.

But how could the government even do it?

They would have requested statistics on the actual hospital they were talking about most likely.

The HSE would have used the report on Mallow to invent statistics for Roscommon and presented them as facts to the government.

I don't think any politician has the time nor the experience to go routing through records for reports. They have people that do this kind of work for them and present them with the facts which were made up in this case.

doc_17

professore wrote: »

Well I don't know their names ... but the examples I gave someone in the civil service must be responsible. There are lots of other examples too.

The thread is more about the principle anyway. People need to have a deterrent or they will screw up and even behave criminally as often as they feel like.

From what I have read in this thread you haven't given any examples. You did mention Roscommon Hospital being unsafe but why is it unsafe? And who (don't need a name but are they politicians/doctors/civil servants) is responsible for it being unsafe? Are they civil servants?

People lose their jobs in the PS all the time. Ask nurses, teachers, SNAs....

professore

thebman wrote: »

But how could the government even do it?

They lie about the stats and then try to fudge it to cover up.

FloatingVoter

Even the lowest rung of the civil service can't be fired. Once established (after 2 years) they're basically unsackable. The worst cases will be encouraged to "resign" - I was (constantly drunk on job). Sacking a long term civil servant would have to involve a criminal conviction at least.

sarumite

doc_17 wrote: »

People lose their jobs in the PS all the time. Ask nurses, teachers, SNAs....

My father is a retired teacher. I have asked him in his 35 years of teaching if he ever knew of full time teacher who was fired and he hadn't. He said he had encountered teachers that should have been fired, but never any that were. There is a difference to letting go of temporary workers and firing someone.

professore

doc_17 wrote: »

From what I have read in this thread you haven't given any examples. You did mention Roscommon Hospital being unsafe but why is it unsafe? And who (don't need a name but are they politicians/doctors/civil servants) is responsible for it being unsafe? Are they civil servants?

I never said anything about Roscommon being unsafe. How would I know, there are no official stats!!!!!

doc_17 wrote: »

People lose their jobs in the PS all the time. Ask nurses, teachers, SNAs....

Really? Permanent staff in the PS lose their jobs all the time? This is news to me. Please give examples.

The fact that so few (if any) lose their jobs is hurting the reputations and the morale of PS workers doing a good job, never mind the effect it has on the country at large.

If your colleague is doing nothing and is earning the same or in many cases more for the same work and you are busting your ass, why would you bother?

Gmol

That's what really grinds my gears. If you're incompetent in the private sector below Board level you will get fired but you can't in the Public Sector. This leads to a situation where good public sector workers are carrying poor colleagues and getting the same rewards for it.

Pharaoh1

We can't fire incompetent Public Servants or even make redundant those whose job/function ceases to exist because:

- Over a long period of time it has become custom and practice not to do so.
This is reinforced by for example the pension arrangement which is based on final salary and 40 years service in many cases. There is an assumption that once employed you will be there for life.

- Power of the unions. The public service are the most unionized group. The unions will never agree to compulsory redundancy in any circumstances. You can't blame them for this.

As an aside a friend of mine in the HSE was informed that the building where he works is being closed an the 20 or so staff are being redeployed under the CPA. But they are told that there are only positions elsewhere for 12 of them. They can of course only be moved within the distance allowed by the CPA. Many are unhappy of course at the disruption and it looks like some will effectively mothballed (ie will have no work to do) for the immediate future.
There is no voluntary redundancy available for them and none are willing to leave without it.

Pharaoh1

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

We can't fire incompetent Public Servants or even make redundant those whose job/function ceases to exist because:

- Over a long period of time it has become custom and practice not to do so.
This is reinforced by for example the pension arrangement which is based on final salary and 40 years service in many cases. There is an assumption that once employed you will be there for life.

40 years is a max, people leave DB schemes all the time...

Gmol

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

We can't fire incompetent Public Servants or even make redundant those whose job/function ceases to exist because:

- Over a long period of time it has become custom and practice not to do so.
This is reinforced by for example the pension arrangement which is based on final salary and 40 years service in many cases. There is an assumption that once employed you will be there for life.

- Power of the unions. The public service are the most unionized group. The unions will never agree to compulsory redundancy in any circumstances. You can't blame them for this.

As an aside a friend of mine in the HSE was informed that the building where he works is being closed an the 20 or so staff are being redeployed under the CPA. But they are told that there are only positions elsewhere for 12 of them. They can of course only be moved within the distance allowed by the CPA. Many are unhappy of course at the disruption and it looks like some will effectively mothballed (ie will have no work to do) for the immediate future.
There is no voluntary redundancy available for them and none are willing to leave without it.

This needs to change if this country is ever going to get back on it's feet, but I can't see it happening.

thebman

professore wrote: »

They lie about the stats and then try to fudge it to cover up.

Yes but how would they lie about the statistics? In order to lie the way the media is portraying this, they would have had to look it up themselves and go oh crap the statistics don't exist, we better make them up.

I think the government requesting statistics and a department not having statistics for what is requested and fudging figures up themselves based on other hospital data is much more likely.

Gmol wrote: »

That's what really grinds my gears. If you're incompetent in the private sector below Board level you will get fired but you can't in the Public Sector. This leads to a situation where good public sector workers are carrying poor colleagues and getting the same rewards for it.

In the private sector firing people isn't all that common in skilled jobs. They are usually made redundant or in very large companies, promoted out of the persons department because when nobody else is firing people, no manager wants to stick out like a sore thumb as the guy with problems in his/her department.

marathont

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Even the lowest rung of the civil service can't be fired. Once established (after 2 years) they're basically unsackable. The worst cases will be encouraged to "resign" - I was (constantly drunk on job). Sacking a long term civil servant would have to involve a criminal conviction at least.

How would they encourage someone to resign?

doc_17

professore wrote: »

Really? Permanent staff in the PS lose their jobs all the time? This is news to me. Please give examples.

I never said permanent but temporary/fixed term/contract staff are getting cut every day.

professore wrote: »

The fact that so few (if any) lose their jobs is hurting the reputations and the morale of PS workers doing a good job, never mind the effect it has on the country at large.

If your colleague is doing nothing and is earning the same or in many cases more for the same work and you are busting your ass, why would you bother?

I suppose that's down to the individual...maybe it says something about people with that mentality - i.e I'll do nothing cos someone else is doing nothing. I work in a school where people show up and do their jobs so I can't comment about areas of the PS where people are criminally under-performing.

meditraitor

marathont wrote: »

How would they encourage someone to resign?

Only one way in the Public/Civil sector.......


Offer them a shed load of money and a pension top up.... And if your lucky enough to be a teacher> The posibilty of coming back on €200 per day part time work ;(

Gmol

thebman wrote: »

Yes but how would they lie about the statistics? In order to lie the way the media is portraying this, they would have had to look it up themselves and go oh crap the statistics don't exist, we better make them up.

I think the government requesting statistics and a department not having statistics for what is requested and fudging figures up themselves based on other hospital data is much more likely.



In the private sector firing people isn't all that common in skilled jobs. They are usually made redundant or in very large companies, promoted out of the persons department because when nobody else is firing people, no manager wants to stick out like a sore thumb as the guy with problems in his/her department.

But it can be done quite easily if the company needs to do it for whatever reason. It is the fact that it is pratically impossible to get rid of staff in the Public sector if their job is no longer there or if they are not up to the job. In the Private sector you will be moved out. Re your point about the Manager he is then the issue if he/she isn't performing as they should and then their performance should be under review

FloatingVoter

marathont wrote: »

How would they encourage someone to resign?

I wasn't established yet, so they threatened to start "proceedings" (I don't know either) the following week. I could have dragged it out and ground them down. However, I was three years in, still on probation and excuse the pun...hadn't a leg to stand on regarding the "drinking on job" accusation.

Back on the main topic, most low level civil servants do their jobs well, but there are a lot of jobsworths in there. My specific case was an extreme example. Deep down, it was the best decision any scumbag boss ever made for me.

There should be more room to get rid of the deadlegs because I did see people covering each other and one person doing the work of two.

thebman

marathont wrote: »

How would they encourage someone to resign?

Move them to a horrible position and nag them a lot about their performance to encourage them to look for work elsewhere without actually taken any formal action against them.

sarumite

doc_17 wrote: »

I never said permanent but temporary/fixed term/contract staff are getting cut every day.

Cutting jobs (temporary or contract staff) to save money is not the same as firing someone for incomeptency. In some cases the former is the easier way out to avoid having to do the latter.

RobbieTheRobber

Staff in the public sector can be fired!

So the thread title needs to be changed to encompass most of the posters to this threads true feelings. So perhaps it should be;

Why dont we fire more public servants?

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Staff in the public sector can be fired!

So the thread title needs to be changed to encompass most of the posters to this threads true feelings. So perhaps it should be;

Why dont we fire more public servants?

Or why is it more difficult to fire bad staff in the public sector than the private sector?

RobbieTheRobber

sarumite wrote: »

Or why is it more difficult to fire bad staff in the public sector than the private sector?

Perhaps, but the fact is they can be sacked (obviously excluding elected officials).

The reasons for not sacking are as many and varied as the departments and bodies that these staff work in and the simplest answer to a lack of sacking relates to culture within the overal PS/CS.

What do the posters want people in the PS/CS sacked for?

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Perhaps, but the fact is they can be sacked (obviously excluding elected officials).

True, though it takes too long, can often be too difficult and does not always happen when it should.

Gmol

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Staff in the public sector can be fired!

So the thread title needs to be changed to encompass most of the posters to this threads true feelings. So perhaps it should be;

Why dont we fire more public servants?

I am not having a go at the Public sector that is not my intention. I am saying that if there are no jobs for people there why are they kept on. If my job isn't there I get let go(private sector) and for the min redundancy. If I am not up to my job or not performing I expect to be trained to make sure I can do the job satisfactorily. If I can't I don't expect to be kept on.

RobbieTheRobber

Gmol wrote: »

I am not having a go at the Public sector that is not my intention. I am saying that if there are no jobs for people there why are they kept on. If my job isn't there I get let go(private sector) and for the min redundancy. If I am not up to my job or not performing I expect to be trained to make sure I can do the job satisfactorily. If I can't I don't expect to be kept on.

The job not being there is a valid point but the structure of the PS and the culture have a large part to play.

Staff should be reassigned once their department function ceases.

On the offering redundancy, say somsone who has worked twenty years in the PS(and so well on their way towards a full ps pension) is probably going to view being forced to take redundancy and the loss of pension rights as being fairly harsh treatment. In this regard unions would likely apply pressure and I think rightly so to support their colleagues.


So Government policy and perhaps union pressure has so far meant that redundancy has not been used.

I think even within the croke park structure the government could offer a voluntary redundancy package and see how many applicants they get.
This could however result in a brian drain with those who believe they have marketable skills leaving(with a payment to boot).

amen

How would I know, there are no official stats

this is the problem. It is practically impossible to get any meaningful information/stats about anything. Stats about all hospitals, patients, daily admittance, deaths etc should be available (without FOI requests) but in a lot of cases I don't think there are stats. Of course if you are not measuring something you don't really know what is going on.

Same thing for crime stats. In New York you can go to the NYPD web site and get a weekly breakdown of crime for each station within a week. Can't get that in Ireland.

COYW

hmmm wrote: »

It's important not to rock the boat in Ireland, because the way we've always done things has worked so well for us.

We didn't get where we are today by rocking boats! Rocking boats, ruffles feathers which has and probably never will be the Irish way of running things. Sweeping it all under the carpet keeps everyone happy, well those that matter anyway.

Gmol

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The job not being there is a valid point but the structure of the PS and the culture have a large part to play.

Staff should be reassigned once their department function ceases.

On the offering redundancy, say somsone who has worked twenty years in the PS(and so well on their way towards a full ps pension) is probably going to view being forced to take redundancy and the loss of pension rights as being fairly harsh treatment. In this regard unions would likely apply pressure and I think rightly so to support their colleagues.


So Government policy and perhaps union pressure has so far meant that redundancy has not been used.

I think even within the croke park structure the government could offer a voluntary redundancy package and see how many applicants they get.
This could however result in a brian drain with those who believe they have marketable skills leaving(with a payment to boot).

Absolutely agree with that as long as they are able to do the job, additionally I think there needs to be a more efficient way of removing staff with disciplinary issues or who are not pulling their weight. I also think that Staff should be flexible within the sector ie one sector may have downtime so staff there should be transferable to different departments(within reason) on a temporary basis to deal with backlogs etc

Nijmegen

We all know as a matter of fact that

1. You can get people who are unfit to hold a role, and ought to be fired
2. Demand / resources can change in an organisation, and it is a good idea to close down functions and get rid of people

We also know as a matter of fact that

1. Very rarely does a permanent employee of the state get fired for poor performance
2. There is no such thing as mandatory redundancy

Doesn't matter that the construction industry has fallen off a cliff, county councils will continue to employ the same number of planning staff as they ever did.

Doesn't matter that social welfare claims have gone through the roof, to protect the planning workers we will not hire more people to process them.

It took a major breakthrough earth shattering agreement to come to the conclusion that you might transfer employees from one function to another.

Public sector unions are a cancer that kills Irish people. Ask the folks of Roscommon who will lose a loved one on the road to Galway because their local A&E was made a soft target for closure.

Or the child who will have a stunted future because their non-permanent SNA was sacrificed.

Heard the unions saying much about that?

Not likely.

Lumbo

If Public Servants can't be fired, why do the Unions constantly make unfair dismissals claims against Public Service Organisations?

lmimmfn

Lumbo wrote: »

If Public Servants can't be fired, why do the Unions constantly make unfair dismissals claims against Public Service Organisations?

because if the unions always take unfair dismissals to court then it costs a fortune for the government to let anyone go.

tweedledee

No one high up gets sacked but they stop recruiting those on the front line.Ohh I wonder who owns these Agencies?????
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-bill-for-agency-staff-up-tenfold-160965.html
:mad:

Lumbo

lmimmfn wrote: »

because if the unions always take unfair dismissals to court then it costs a fortune for the government to let anyone go.

Not if the correct steps have been taken to dismiss the employee. It's called due process. Can get you out of all sorts of scrapes if you're seen to follow the steps of dismissal properly.

thebman

Lumbo wrote: »

Not if the correct steps have been taken to dismiss the employee. It's called due process. Can get you out of all sorts of scrapes if you're seen to follow the steps of dismissal properly.

He didn't say they weren't following the process, he said the process is too costly if it gets contested as far as it can be.

The state can have followed all the steps they should and still end up spending a fortune trying to get rid of someone to the point that it becomes more cost effective to move them to somewhere they can't do any harm.