Unionists insist on sectarian parades. Nationalists riot in response.

paky

Is this everyones view on the 12th or is it just me? Ive been trying to post on forums such as the Belfast Telegraph and Sky News all morning, but surprise surprise, ive been prevented from doing so!

RMD

Sort of. There's a certain contingent of the Unionists who take part in the marches just for the "social" aspect and to celebrate their heritage, then there is also the contingent who do it for purely "Showing the Catholics who's boss" mentality. I wouldn't label the entire organization, but there certainly is a group within the Order who are a right shower of prícks.

I'd say it's more so the Republicans who are rioting while the nationalists will just ignore the parades. Ardoyne is a very Republican area and it's always the main location of the largest riots on the 12th.

Wolfe Tone

That is certainly one of the main reasons, the marchers carrying their lovely anti republican banner today is more fuel to the fire.

But then again you have the dregs who are rioting for the sake of it.

The riots last night were a combination of hoods and people taking their anger out. Loyalists petrol bombed some homes too AFAIK.

Little mention of the Loyalist "show of strength" I've heard so much about, apparently they fired some volleys from a gun at a bonfire.

I think tonight will be one of the worst years in recent times, and that will be a response to Short Strand as well as Unionist triumphalism.

So to answer your point, yes that is the main reason for riots, but not the only one.

RMD

I think tonight will definitely out do any previous years by a long way. I've never seen so much action from the Loyalists prior to the 12th parades in recent times and the problem is if riots kick off in Ardoyne tonight I don't think it's just the police they'll be against, the Loyalists will get involved to.

I hope to god nothing happens, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if people die tonight.

Jelle1880

nesf is gonna get you

As for the marches being the sole reason for the riots, don't be daft.
If not marches, they will find another reason to fill their empty lives with rioting.

Wolfe Tone: Those 'shows of strength' are an annual thing, and don't really amount to more than 3-4 guys shooting some handguns in the air.

RMD

Jelle1880 wrote: »

and don't really amount to more than 3-4 guys shooting some handguns in the air.

That's still 3-4 people too many with access to handguns fúcking about with them. Why didn't the PSNI swoop down on the bonfire in question when shots were fired?

Boulevardier

Delighted to see that the Nordies have reverted to their true form. I was beginning to think they had gone all soft and fluffy on account of the peace process. How about ye, lads!

junder

No harm to youse but I have just completed the first half of the twelve, I went to bed at 03:30 and was up at 06:00 to be at my bandhall to start parading at 07:00. It's now 13:38 ihave a wee break and will be back on parade at 16:00 hrs I am beat and the days only half over, trust when I say that I have no inclination to annoy, wind up or offend anybody, sadly people will be offended anyway just because I wear a band uniform .

Jelle1880

RMD wrote: »

That's still 3-4 people too many with access to handguns fúcking about with them. Why didn't the PSNI swoop down on the bonfire in question when shots were fired?

Because it's nigh impossible to keep an eye on all bonfires.
There's so many of them, and all over the place too, that it would take a huge amount of manpower, taking officers away from other potential flashpoints of violence.

COYW

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think tonight will be one of the worst years in recent times, and that will be a response to Short Strand as well as Unionist triumphalism.

But why the sudden increase in violence this year? The marches and all that goes along with it happen every year.

I have to admit that I am quite ignorant when it comes to the North. I just fail to understand why people can't get along. However I have paid some attention this year as we, myself and a group of lads from West London, were supposed to go up to Belfast on Thursday for the Fulham game.

goose2005

junder wrote: »

No harm to youse but I have just completed the first half of the twelve, I went to bed at 03:30 and was up at 06:00 to be at my bandhall to start parading at 07:00. It's now 13:38 ihave a wee break and will be back on parade at 16:00 hrs I am beat and the days only half over, trust when I say that I have no inclination to annoy, wind up or offend anybody, sadly people will be offended anyway just because I wear a band uniform .

But ultimately you were celebrating a battle which ensured three centuries of Protestant hegemony - how can Catholics not take offence at you celebrating the battle which made them second-class citizens?

COYW

goose2005 wrote: »

But ultimately you were celebrating a battle which ensured three centuries of Protestant hegemony - how can Catholics not take offence at you celebrating the battle which made them second-class citizens?

As I said above, the north is like Mars to me. However in response to your post:

1) Given the significant decline in the attendances, subsequent near death of the Catholic church on the island as a whole and the huge proportion of people who have no longer live by the Catholic code, with the exception of weddings, baptisms and gaudy confirmations, there aren't that many out there who can take offence, if Catholics are to be offended by these marches.

2) The Catholics could grow up and start living their life in the 21st century. Both sides should.

listermint

COYW wrote: »

As I said above, the north is like Mars to me. However in response to your post:

1) Given the significant decline in the attendances, subsequent near death of the Catholic church on the island as a whole and the huge proportion of people who have no longer live by the Catholic code, with the exception of weddings, baptisms and gaudy confirmations, there aren't that many out there who can take offence, if Catholics are to be offended by these marches.

2) The Catholics could grow up and start living their life in the 21st century. Both sides should.

Could that not be said about both sides ? Its ridiculous that they cant evolve the parades into something more meaningful than the celebration of a stupid battle and murder on both sides. Religion is a manmade killing excuse.

Cú Giobach

COYW wrote: »

As I said above, the north is like Mars to me. However in response to your post:

1) Given the significant decline in the attendances, subsequent near death of the Catholic church on the island as a whole and the huge proportion of people who have no longer live by the Catholic code, with the exception of weddings, baptisms and gaudy confirmations, there aren't that many out there who can take offence, if Catholics are to be offended by these marches.

2) The Catholics could grow up and start living their life in the 21st century. Both sides should.

listermint wrote: »

Could that not be said about both sides ? Its ridiculous that they cant evolve the parades into something more meaningful than the celebration of a stupid battle and murder on both sides. Religion is a manmade killing excuse.

They're not fighting about religion. The issue is a territorial one, and there are actually Protestant Irish Nationalists, and Catholic British Unionists.

spider guardian

One side wants to march in certain areas, the other doesn't want them to. It'll never be satisfactorily resolved.

Could the loyalist flags have been placed up near the catholic churches in order to provoke a response? This year is turning out to be a right tinderbox, not much of a spark needed if you're the rioting type.

Raskolnikov

No one has actually touched on the real issues as to why Catholics have a problem with Orange Order parades.

1. Parades don't just happen on the 12th of July. From the start of May until August there are marches on a weekly basis in many towns. Most weekends in that period will have marches. That generates an incredible amount of traffic/noise disruption, and prevents Catholics from being in the vicinity of town centres where the marches occur.
2. There is an inherent unfairness in what the Orange Order are demanding. They wish to march through Catholic areas, however, they would similarly not tolerate let's say a Catholic march through a Protestant area, or Catholics taking over a town centre with tricolours and bunting.

The whole issue could be solved if the Orange Order were willing to come to a compromise. Most Catholics would accept their right to march on the 12th of July, only if that was the only day of the year that Orange Order activity took place on public roads. Likewise, Catholics could then use St. Patrick's Day as their day to march and celebrate the day as they see fit.

The Orange Order would never accept such a fair compromise though.

COYW

spider guardian wrote: »

One side wants to march in certain areas, the other doesn't want them to. It'll never be satisfactorily resolved.

I agree. Stopping the killings is as good as it will get.

KeithAFC

Raskolnikov wrote: »

No one has actually touched on the real issues as to why Catholics have a problem with Orange Order parades.

1. Parades don't just happen on the 12th of July. From the start of May until August there are marches on a weekly basis in many towns. Most weekends in that period will have marches. That generates an incredible amount of traffic/noise disruption, and prevents Catholics from being in the vicinity of town centres where the marches occur.
2. There is an inherent unfairness in what the Orange Order are demanding. They wish to march through Catholic areas, however, they would similarly not tolerate let's say a Catholic march through a Protestant area, or Catholics taking over a town centre with tricolours and bunting.

The whole issue could be solved if the Orange Order were willing to come to a compromise. Most Catholics would accept their right to march on the 12th of July, only if that was the only day of the year that Orange Order activity took place on public roads. Likewise, Catholics could then use St. Patrick's Day as their day to march and celebrate the day as they see fit.

The Orange Order would never accept such a fair compromise though.

The Orange Order don't need permission to march from republicans. If small republican elements can't behave, then that is up to them. It's almost as if they think if they riot enough, it will cancel the 12 next year which is beyond a pipe dream and has been for centruies.

Great day though.

paky

the orange order were designed specifically as a measure of dividing the people on the island of ireland and to curtail republicanism. i thought it was hilarious watching a banner today stating REPUBLICANISM IS CULTURAL APARTHIED?? LOL wtf? I doubht the people carrying the banner actually know what apartheid is. Little do these idiots realise that the old divide and conquer tactics imposed by the british will eventualy work against them. Let the orange order march, little do they realise theyre marching themselves into a united ireland.

michael999999

Judging by the size of the marchers, it looks like its the only walk they go on all year!

goose2005

Raskolnikov wrote: »

2. There is an inherent unfairness in what the Orange Order are demanding. They wish to march through Catholic areas, however, they would similarly not tolerate let's say a Catholic march through a Protestant area, or Catholics taking over a town centre with tricolours and bunting.

The whole issue could be solved if the Orange Order were willing to come to a compromise. Most Catholics would accept their right to march on the 12th of July, only if that was the only day of the year that Orange Order activity took place on public roads. Likewise, Catholics could then use St. Patrick's Day as their day to march and celebrate the day as they see fit.

The Orange Order would never accept such a fair compromise though.

As far as I know, the Unionist argument is that they used those marching routes when almost no-one lived on those roads, and when Catholics built houses there they knew it was a traditional parade route. And as far as I know, St Patrick's Day is also observed by unionists, although not as an "Irish" thing.

paky

goose2005 wrote: »

As far as I know, the Unionist argument is that they used those marching routes when almost no-one lived on those roads, and when Catholics built houses there they knew it was a traditional parade route. And as far as I know, St Patrick's Day is also observed by unionists, although not as an "Irish" thing.

st patricks day is only one day a year and is celebrated by both communities. st patricks day is used as an excuse by unionists to validate the 12th and the three hundred other parades they have during the year.

junder

That my 12th over. I have walked many Miles , I hurt in places I'd rather not mention, my feet are busted and i am
Exhausted, but I had a great day I seem family
And friends that I have not seen in years.

Jaap

Orangefest looked good today...I only caught it on TV this morning for the hour's coverage on BBC...and a bit on UTV Live this evening.
Great to see many tourists taking in the celebrations...it is a unique day and tradition. Let's hope the tourists go home to Brazil, Germany etc. and tell their friends about it.

sollar

Jaap wrote: »

Let's hope the tourists go home to Brazil, Germany etc. and tell their friends about it.

Yeah, tell them all how they took in some bigotry and sectarianism while they were there.

Solair

Quite honestly, I think certain people in Northern Ireland on both sides just like a a bit of riotin' and smashing things up.

Simplest solution would be to send all those involved the bill for the clean up and encourage insurers to seek costs against anyone who damages property.

From an outsider's perspective the whole situation just seems totally nuts.

Whatever about the history, recent and all as it was, nobody's oppressing anyone else anymore!

KeithAFC

junder wrote: »

That my 12th over. I have walked many Miles , I hurt in places I'd rather not mention, my feet are busted and i am
Exhausted, but I had a great day I seem family
And friends that I have not seen in years.

Glad to hear that junder. Great day. Some great bands on displays today.

Elliemental

I live in Shaftesbury Square in central Belfast (my flat over-looks the parade route). Today, I saw a random man beaten unconscious, women and children stampeded to the ground, (my flat mate actually had to dive in and pull two toddlers to safety). Police were having bottles, and all sorts of detritus/abuse hurled at them. There were UVF chants all over the place, and the whole scene was just absolutely horrific.
I (as an English woman), have never been so ashamed to see the union flag flying anywhere, than out among that rabble.

But, banning things never works. If anything, it could even exacerbate the situation, and give the bigots a victim complex. It's such a tricky, and difficult problem, that simply has no quick fix solution. My gut instinct tells me that the best we can hope for is that these archaic, sectarian parades eventually die out. We can aid the dying process through various initiatives. But, euthanising them is probably all we can do.

sollar

Elliemental wrote: »

I live in Shaftesbury Square in central Belfast (my flat over-looks the parade route). Today, I saw a random man beaten unconscious, women and children stampeded to the ground, (my flat mate actually had to dive in and pull two toddlers to safety). Police were having bottles, and all sorts of detritus/abuse hurled at them. There were UVF chants all over the place, and the whole scene was just absolutely horrific.
I (as an English woman), have never been so ashamed to see the union flag flying anywhere, than out among that rabble.

Sounds grim.

I can't imagine too many English people are proud when the UVF fly the union flag.

paky

junder wrote: »

That my 12th over. I have walked many Miles , I hurt in places I'd rather not mention, my feet are busted and i am
Exhausted, but I had a great day I seem family
And friends that I have not seen in years.

Junder, Jaap and Keith, for a bunch of orangemen you seem to have a

keen interest posting in Irish internet forums.

KeithAFC

Elliemental wrote: »

I live in Shaftesbury Square in central Belfast (my flat over-looks the parade route). Today, I saw a random man beaten unconscious, women and children stampeded to the ground, (my flat mate actually had to dive in and pull two toddlers to safety). Police were having bottles, and all sorts of detritus/abuse hurled at them. There were UVF chants all over the place, and the whole scene was just absolutely horrific.
I (as an English woman), have never been so ashamed to see the union flag flying anywhere, than out among that rabble.

But, banning things never works. If anything, it could even exacerbate the situation, and give the bigots a victim complex. It's such a tricky, and difficult problem, that simply has no quick fix solution. My gut instinct tells me that the best we can hope for is that these archaic, sectarian parades eventually die out. We can aid the dying process through various initiatives. But, euthanising them is probably all we can do.

I doubt the 12th will be canceled because of that incident., compared to thousands of people all over Ulster who enjoy the day with no bother.

Elliemental

For a few minutes, I honestly thought that a man was going to be kicked to death. He was unconscious, and the attackers just kept on kicking him repeatedly. It was terrifying. Frankly, no culture, country, or percieved "right to march" is worth it.

Elliemental

KeithAFC wrote: »

I doubt the 12th will be canceled because of that incident., compared to thousands of people all over Ulster who enjoy the day with no bother.

Oh, sorry I should have been more clear there. I thought that OP was suggesting it should have been banned in the first place, and I was throwing in my "anti-banning" two cents worth. I realise this event takes place annually, and a lot of people experience no trouble at all. But, today was a pure horror around my way.

NufcNavan

Both sides of the community in NI have claimed to have moved on from 'The Troubles', yet Unionists still insist on having their parades that incite hatred and enforce divides within society?

Cathal O

I as an Irishman and as a person who in very tolerant of other beliefs and cultures am fully 100% behind the right of loyalists to show their history and march. I have no problem with it.

However when this marching is merely antagonising the nationalist community in certain areas, who which the unionist community show little respect while travelling through, and purposely try and entice an altercation from and try to take the moral high ground when they encounter such counter demonstrations, I cannot understand.

Can i ask any member of the marching community in here why they do not "keep to their own areas" for want of a better phrase and march and enioy their celebrations there.

I would like to get in before the opposition to the "why should we keep to our own areas"- responses by stating that you know full well what a i mean and why i say such a thing, to keep the peace and to encourage the younger generations that up front altercations have no place in the new northern ireland.
So why do these marches go through nationalist areas, and to the response likely to involve the parades commission. why do you not recognise such a commission?

RMD

And so it begins. Thankfully there's no reports of shots yet. The police have lost the roofs which will be a serious set back in controlling the riots. Hopefully there's no reaction from the Loyalists.

http://www.u.tv/News/Petrol-bombs-in-Ardoyne-riots/f2b63fb4-d259-4cd2-8c21-431aa5714463

KeithAFC

NufcNavan wrote: »

Both sides of the community in NI have claimed to have moved on from 'The Troubles', yet Unionists still insist on having their parades that incite hatred and enforce divides within society?

Its the same old thing with Republicans/Nationalists and comments like this. These parades have been going on LONG before the Troubles and will be going on long after we are gone. Protestant men and women have been marching all over Ulster and the island for centuries.

We live in a divided society on many things anyway. The annual 12th of July is in celebration of the victory at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. I don't think bricks and stones is going to stop the hundreds of thousands of Protestant men and women from enjoying themselves and taking part in the 12th. The Troubles never stopped it, and neither will bricks or bottles.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Cathal O wrote: »

I would like to get in before the opposition to the "why should we keep to our own areas"- responses by stating that you know full well what a i mean and why i say such a thing, to keep the peace and to encourage the younger generations that up front altercations have no place in the new northern ireland.
So why do these marches go through nationalist areas, and to the response likely to involve the parades commission. why do you not recognise such a commission?

Only a minority go past nationalist areas. The ones that do are due to the demographic spread of the neighbourhoods. Like in belfast the west is mostly nationalist but dunmurry has a lot of unionists. Or in the east its mostly unionist but short strand is nationalist.

You really notice it walking around. Last summer was walking from the city centre to a place in the north. unionist flags on every lamp post for the most part but then there was just none for small stretch when I was going past new lodge.

Iwasfrozen

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its the same old thing with Republicans/Nationalists and comments like this. These parades had been going on LONG before the Troubles and will be going on long after we are gone. Protestant men and women have been marching all over Ulster and the island for centuries.

We live in a divided society on many things anyway. The annual 12th of July is in celebration of the victory at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. I don't think bricks and stones is going to stop the hundreds of thousands of Protestant men and women from enjoying themselves and taking part in the 12th. The Troubles never stopped it, and neither will bricks or bottles.

But why can't you just take a few pointers from your collegess in Donegal and march with respect while you celebrate what I'm sure you can understand is a very politically and historically senstitive victory over the people you share your city with?

Respect is mutual and can't be gained by buring our flags on your bonfires.

NufcNavan

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its the same old thing with Republicans/Nationalists and comments like this. These parades have been going on LONG before the Troubles and will be going on long after we are gone. Protestant men and women have been marching all over Ulster and the island for centuries.

We live in a divided society on many things anyway. The annual 12th of July is in celebration of the victory at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. I don't think bricks and stones is going to stop the hundreds of thousands of Protestant men and women from enjoying themselves and taking part in the 12th. The Troubles never stopped it, and neither will bricks or bottles.

The marches symbolise a lot more than just the Battle of the Boyne. They are done to show that the Unionists are on top in the community.

Jaap

paky wrote: »

Junder, Jaap and Keith, for a bunch of orangemen you seem to have a

keen interest posting in Irish internet forums.

I would like to correct you on that statement first...I am not an Orangeman.
I believe everyone or group has the right to express their tradition whether it be through having colourful marches like there has been all over Northern Ireland today...or through sport such as gaelic games.
Each to their own.

Jaap

NufcNavan wrote: »

Both sides of the community in NI have claimed to have moved on from 'The Troubles', yet Unionists still insist on having their parades that incite hatred and enforce divides within society?

Who do Unionists incite hatred from...recreational rioters who travel miles just to be offended?
Orange marches do not create any more hatred or sectarianism which wasn't already there.
Some people just can not tolerate the other side and their beliefs and traditions. Works both ways!

KeithAFC

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But why can't you just take a few pointers from your collegess in Donegal and march with respect while you celebrate what I'm sure you can understand is a very politically and historically senstitive victory over the people you share your city with?

Respect is mutual and can't be gained by buring our flags on your bonfires.

It has been said over and over again many times, it is only a very tiny minority of parades which cause disturbances. It seems the Republicans from Ardoyne do get a kick out of it and is starting to become a tradition for them. Perhaps the N.I tourist board could look into that.

nesf

paky wrote: »

Junder, Jaap and Keith, for a bunch of orangemen you seem to have a

keen interest posting in Irish internet forums.

Less of the personal stuff please. Keep it about posts, not posters.

NufcNavan

Jaap wrote: »

Who do Unionists incite hatred from...recreational rioters who travel miles just to be offended?
Orange marches do not create any more hatred or sectarianism which wasn't already there.
Some people just can not tolerate the other side and their beliefs and traditions. Works both ways!

The marches are offensive to the whole nationalist community..

Just because they're not all throwing bricks does not mean that they don't object..

Iwasfrozen

KeithAFC wrote: »

It has been said over and over again many times, it is only a very tiny minority of parades which cause disturbances. It seems the Republicans from Ardoyne do get a kick out of it and is starting to become a tradition for them. Perhaps the N.I tourist board could look into that.

And what about the bonfires you so helpfully posted yesterday? How can you expect hardcore nationalists not to cause trouble when you burn our flag?

junder

paky wrote: »

Junder, Jaap and Keith, for a bunch of orangemen you seem to have a

keen interest posting in Irish internet forums.

And?

Jaap

NufcNavan wrote: »

The marches are offensive to the whole nationalist community..

Just because they're not all throwing bricks does not mean that they don't object..

What is offensive about celebrating your tradition and culture?
I didn't see anything on the TV clips today that could cause offence to nationalists.
Yes there were union jacks and red hand of Ulsters and a lot of red white and blue...but does that harm anyone?
I don't think the tri-colour or green white and gold colours can cause harm either.

KeithAFC

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And what about the bonfires you so helpfully posted yesterday? How can you expect hardcore nationalists not to cause trouble when you burn our flag?

That is up to them. If they want to do that, they go right ahead. It will just end up like last year and the PSNI moving in with an investigation.

SeanW

junder wrote: »

No harm to youse but I have just completed the first half of the twelve, I went to bed at 03:30 and was up at 06:00 to be at my bandhall to start parading at 07:00. It's now 13:38 ihave a wee break and will be back on parade at 16:00 hrs I am beat and the days only half over, trust when I say that I have no inclination to annoy, wind up or offend anybody, sadly people will be offended anyway just because I wear a band uniform .

As long as you keep to roads/neighborhoods where you're wanted (as opposed to Nationalist areas which I understand is where the problems arise, because the locals don't want to know about ye), then march all you like and have fun! :P

paky

junder wrote: »

And?

common sense would suggest that its a disproportionate representation of your community on this internet forum