The End Of Fianna Fail

Cathal O

Or...just mere rebranding.
A parlimentary party meeting is discussing the possibility of a rebranded of FF, including a possible name change and /or logo change.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0712/1224300558353.html

I personally find this disgusting and an acknowledgment by FF that the current electorate do not support them and are looking for a way to trick or fool people into voting for them again.

What do ye think? Will it work, and will there be an outcry both in and out of the Dail chamber as to what they are planning?

Joey the lips

There is nothing wrong with rebranding. I dont think its a trick. Its just a pr way to signal a new start. Regardless i dont think i could vote for them for a long time. There is just a serious lack of trust which has effected my politics in general.

They say all politics is local though so time will tell. However i imagine they are screwed in Dublin for a long time and votes here matter.

the groutch

They can call themselves whtever they want, they've done too much damage for people to ever forgive them (except maybe in Cork & Kerry)

Sierra Oscar

The party will not be renamed. Expect a new tagline or logo, but the name will not be altered. Labour in England used the "New Labour" tagline prior to the 1997 election, but it is still the Labour party.

JimiTime

People have short memories. When things get bad under this government, FF will be back. Most people are too nervous to be radical when they vote, so it'll be FF/FG/Lab for generations to come. FF in opposition will do what most oppositions do and play to the public, people will believe them, and they'll be back in power.

kev9100

It doesn't matter. FF is finished.

kunsajan

When a national police association accuses its government of what amounts to treason it is time to sit up and pay attention.

Coillte_Bhoy

kev9100 wrote: »

It doesn't matter. FF is finished.

I can never understand people coming out with this. They are still on 16% of the vote. Only way is up, unfortunately.

loldog

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I can never understand people coming out with this. They are still on 16% of the vote. Only way is up, unfortunately.

In the absence of any options to FG/Lab I think you may be right. What other option are there? SF, various Leftist groups...? Where else would a FG/Lab protest vote go?

.

Sierra Oscar

loldog wrote: »

In the absence of any options to FG/Lab I think you may be right. What other option are there? SF, various Leftist groups...? Where else would a FG/Lab protest vote go?

.

The only options available at the moment are far left groups (include SF in that), something which I would imagine worries a lot of voters.

maynooth_rules

Horse ****e by any other name is still horse ****e. The silly thing is this might work on some of the high number of fools in this country who fell for the swine that is Bertie Ahern

Liam Byrne

loldog wrote: »

In the absence of any options to FG/Lab I think you may be right. What other option are there? SF, various Leftist groups...? Where else would a FG/Lab protest vote go?

.

Speaking personally, I'd have no choice but to vote independent.

I said it before the election that FG/Labour were the best of a bad lot, and they have done nothing to justify my voting for them as yet, even doing some stuff that makes me regret that I voted for them.

Yes, the mess was FF's fault, but they knew that when they applied for the job.

As for FF rebranding, it's typical of the style-over-substance ****e that goes on these days; it won't change the fact that they ruined the country and condoned corruption, and if they were serious about change they wouldn't have put Willie O'Dea on their bench.

A Snickers is still a Marathon, and no-one asks for a "7up Free"

Dannyboy83

Not sure if I'll bother vote next time round.

FG lied through their teeth and are increasing taxes by 10billion
FF - yea, right
Labour - yea, right

That's it for Cork. That's our choices unless some half decent independent shows up.

blahfckingblah

theres no point in changing the name when theres a lot more internal reform needed. as far as im concerned this is the tip of the iceberg of what fianna fail need to do. they are using a name change to show how much they have changed when the reality is that many of the people who were involved in the downfall of this country are still there and still have the same attitudes. theres more work needed to be done than this symbolic, cosmetic change

godtabh

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I can never understand people coming out with this. They are still on 16% of the vote. Only way is up, unfortunately.

When they have zero % of the vote the only way is up. FF may still go up and down depending on what happens here over the next 3-5 years.

Personally I dont see myself voting for them for a long long time unless there is a total change (and a genuine change) in the party.

Hopefully the time of generational politics is over

nesf

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Speaking personally, I'd have no choice but to vote independent.

I said it before the election that FG/Labour were the best of a bad lot, and they have done nothing to justify my voting for them as yet, even doing some stuff that makes me regret that I voted for them.

Yes, the mess was FF's fault, but they knew that when they applied for the job.

As for FF rebranding, it's typical of the style-over-substance ****e that goes on these days; it won't change the fact that they ruined the country and condoned corruption, and if they were serious about change they wouldn't have put Willie O'Dea on their bench.

A Snickers is still a Marathon, and no-one asks for a "7up Free"

Most independents are as far, or further, left as SF though. If you're centrist or right wing at all, your options are severely limited in the vast majority of constituencies at present.

goose2005

But what is the point of FF? Who or what do they represent, beyond seeking power and influence for them, their family and their mates?

goat2

Cathal O wrote: »

Or...just mere rebranding.
A parlimentary party meeting is discussing the possibility of a rebranded of FF, including a possible name change and /or logo change.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0712/1224300558353.html

I personally find this disgusting and an acknowledgment by FF that the current electorate do not support them and are looking for a way to trick or fool people into voting for them again.

What do ye think? Will it work, and will there be an outcry both in and out of the Dail chamber as to what they are planning?

i dont think they they are wrong on doing this, a new name, with a new bunch at the helm, a clean sheet, michael martin is best man to get this up and running, hopefully nepotism will be one of the things the change about fianna fail nua,

eagle eye

goose2005 wrote: »

But what is the point of FF? Who or what do they represent, beyond seeking power and influence for them, their family and their mates?

Just like Fine Gael.
And things are a long way from being different in this country. We don't have any far left or right major parties in this country. They are all swimming around the centre and lean left or right.

Sierra Oscar

goose2005 wrote: »

But what is the point of FF? Who or what do they represent, beyond seeking power and influence for them, their family and their mates?

I think at the moment you will find that the FF party membership itself is not exactly entirely aware of what it stands for. Only when its party membership starts coming together and formulating new policy will we see what the party "stands for".

That process is already underway to be fair though. Today alone FF launched a new policy document outlining the party's stance on personal debts & mortgages. Expect to see many more of these documents in the coming months.

Protecting Family Homes, Reforming Personal Debt - Fianna Fáil's Strategy on Mortgages and Personal Debt

raymon

A rebranding will not work.

FF should expel Michael Martin and Willie, apologize to the nation and disband.

The remaining independents could form a new party .

Pride Fighter

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I think at the moment you will find that the FF party membership itself is not exactly entirely aware of what it stands for. Only when its party membership starts coming together and formulating new policy will we see what the party "stands for".

That process is already underway to be fair though. Today alone FF launched a new policy document outlining the party's stance on personal debts & mortgages. Expect to see many more of these documents in the coming months.

Protecting Family Homes, Reforming Personal Debt - Fianna Fáil's Strategy on Mortgages and Personal Debt

Dont think people will fall for their populist policies, they'll just say that why didnt they do that when they were in power?

I have been looking at Fianna Fail since the election, attended some County Council meetings and seen some online (I know, extremely hacky). I have no idea what they stand for?? What is their ideology?? It's definite that FG are centre right, and Labour centre left. But FF are all over the shop. Meander to far left, far right and centre. All of it populist nonsense. I think SF will overtake them at the next election. Then FF will disband with their party members joining either FG, Labour or SF.

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

Most independents are as far, or further, left as SF though. If you're centrist or right wing at all, your options are severely limited in the vast majority of constituencies at present.

Given where the ridiculous policies to date have led us, I've no problem with genuine socialism.

SF aren't on my list of acceptable options though, for obvious reasons.

Cathal O

Liam Byrne wrote: »

SF aren't on my list of acceptable options though, for obvious reasons.

Why?

Sand

I think there will always be a market for Fianna Fail. The Roscommon hospitals drama has shown there are hordes of votes to be had in exchange for unrealistic promises to sustain white elephant local trophies. Whilst theres little to admire in Fianna Fail, they are simply the best vote winning machine in Ireland because they give us whatever we ask for. They are a perfect reflection of what the Irish voter looks for.

blahfckingblah

Cathal O wrote: »

Why?

i think hes against their transition to peace on the grounds that he has to base his distain for them on history

charlemont

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Horse ****e by any other name is still horse ****e. The silly thing is this might work on some of the high number of fools in this country who fell for the swine that is Bertie Ahern

Thats the problem and they wont go away either unfortunately.

Liam Byrne

Cathal O wrote: »

Why?

Their blinkered double-standards and their refusal to refer to this country as a country, and that's just for starters.

But that's off-topic so we'll leave it at that.

thebman

The Article wrote:

It is understood that the morning session was devoted to an analysis of why the party did so badly in the general election. “There was unanimous agreement that we failed to communicate the depth of the economic crisis to the people,” said one of those present.

The problem wasn't that they failed to communicate the depth of the crisis, the problem is they are primarily responsible for the crisis in the first place though we see they continue to live in denial meaning they must be left in the abyss for longer, bad FF. Learn you are responsible and properly take responsibility. They continue to claim they have taken responsibility but then come out with statements like this where they continue to show that they are just hoping people will buy that line and they don't see themselves as having done anything wrong.

“We lost their trust.”

And continually fail to regain it with false promises of reform of the party under the leadership of those who were some of the main causes of the losing of faith in the party.

Some blamed the coalition with the Green Party while it was also suggested that the embrace of the now defunct Progressive Democrats many years ago was bad for Fianna Fáil.

Really? The Green party is to blame? Actually the Green party can more correctly blame their annihilation on FF though they have nobody to blame for themselves and likewise for the PD's.

Continue to fail to try to deflect blame from themselves showing they are still in the denial stage of recovery. A long way to go with feck all done and a lot more to do.

Another suggestion was that the party should return to its working-class roots, while some concern was expressed about the increasing strength of Sinn Féin in some constituencies.

Of course they are worried about the rise of Sinn Fein who are likely to become a much bigger party than them in the next election and now they want to target the Sinn Fein voters to try to draw them to FF however those people despise FF even more than the FG/Labour voters from what I can see.

kraggy

kev9100 wrote: »

It doesn't matter. FF is finished.

No offence, but that's one of the most naive posts I've ever seen.

Fianna Fail are not finished. Mark my words. Their bedrock support is sleeping, but will come back as soon as Fine Gael and Labour start messing up.

raymon

FF is being led by M Martin , a man caught depositing donations from a developer into his wife's bank account.

Second in command is a man who lied under oath.

Not the type of people to lead FF out of this.

Disbanding in shame would be a good move

nesf

raymon wrote: »

FF is being led by M Martin , a man caught depositing donations from a developer into his wife's bank account.

Have you a source for that? (Just checking)

gizmo555

nesf wrote: »

Have you a source for that? (Just checking)

Asked why a political donation from Owen O'Callaghan of IR£5,000 ended up in his wife's bank account - Michael Martin said there is no issue about the matter and the funds were spent on the election campaign within weeks.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0204/election_tracker.html

Seloth

FF is currently under a internal reformation which may explain the policies bits.Martin is re-organizing the party to try and get a new fresh start.He wishes to ask the people what they want and how FF members feel about policies etc.Even the youth branch itself is making quite allot of internal changes.As for the re-branding I think the new labour was an excellent example.

Personally I cant see how people dont like the populist view.I know many on boards feel that its only a sneaky way of getting votes but think of it this way.A politician is there to represent the people.A politician is too voice what the people want.Lab(Not bashing them but an example)who are a Social left party promised for example to not raise student fee's.Being a left party you would see why they would say so.Then we see how Ruari Quinn(Lab) is now introducing them.Is that not breaking there Ideology?For the most part ideology in politics unfortunately is seemingly a mere guidelines.

Speaking to allot of older members they told of how the party was indeed wrapped in favoritism and family running in various places etc but what they highlighted now is how this is the first time in years that it is not so.The status quo as you could say has changed.

To say only idiots vote for FF is Comical.I know of a highly regarded physicist lecture who voted for them. Now you may reply to that "Oh but what does he know about Politics etc,well in all fairness what does the average person in Ireland know about Politics.Ask yourself the same question before you say they are idiots.The main reasons people vte for a party are either they agree with policies or they are connected either through family or the party itself.Now this happens with every party not just FF.

Gawd I havent been on boards properly in a on the so lets see the kettles come flying :pac:

nesf

gizmo555 wrote: »

Asked why a political donation from Owen O'Callaghan of IR£5,000 ended up in his wife's bank account - Michael Martin said there is no issue about the matter and the funds were spent on the election campaign within weeks.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0204/election_tracker.html

Thanks, I couldn't remember that.

Cathal O

gizmo555 wrote: »

Asked why a political donation from Owen O'Callaghan of IR£5,000 ended up in his wife's bank account - Michael Martin said there is no issue about the matter and the funds were spent on the election campaign within weeks.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0204/election_tracker.html

Fr Ted memories here - The money was only resting in my account :pac:

Corsendonk

I personally find it really naive the comments that FF is a party no more. I know smaller parties like the PDs went that way but harder to get rid of a party of FF size and legacy, At the end of the day even if you hate FF to your core it wouldn't be good for Irish democracy if we had a 3 party state of SF, FG and Labour to choose from.

By the way has anyone else noticed that the Irish Catholic Church has become socialists lately in an attempt to gain supporters, not just political parties that rebrand.

thebman

I don't think people that vote FF are stupid, I do think however that they have given up on good ethics in politics as it has been shown time and time again that the party lacks these and its current leaders still lack them more so than any other political party.

I'm a firm believer in treating politicians like disobedient dogs. When they do something I don't like, they get disciplined and if it they do something good, they might get a treat.

If FF did properly reform, I wouldn't have a problem voting for them but I'm skeptical as to whether the people involved are capable of doing it given ethics doesn't seem to be very important to them.

FG represent change though and if they don't deliver on that change, they will be disciplined. If FF haven't got their act together (and it is extremely unlikely they will IMO), then I don't know who I will vote for. It will depend on the policies, whoever promises the best overall of the political system will get my vote once FG most likely fail to deliver on this.

Corsendonk wrote: »

I personally find it really naive the comments that FF is a party no more. I know smaller parties like the PDs went that way but harder to get rid of a party of FF size and legacy, At the end of the day even if you hate FF to your core it wouldn't be good for Irish democracy if we had a 3 party state of SF, FG and Labour to choose from.

By the way has anyone else noticed that the Irish Catholic Church has become socialists lately in an attempt to gain supporters, not just political parties that rebrand.

It wouldn't stay a 3 party state for long though. The people in FF that weren't high profile and were up and coming would start their own party and have immediate credibility with the electorate who would have no idea they were former FF members.

You might Libertas starting their own party too if FF died as there would be about 15% of the vote up for grabs by a new political party.

Pride Fighter

Seloth wrote: »

Personally I cant see how people dont like the populist view

Cause it caused the current mess were in at the moment. You cannot increase public spending above economic growth while lowering taxes at the same time. Thats what FF did.

Someone has to pay for it and that is why taxes are necessary, to pay for public spending. Not fair weather taxes like stamp duty and VAT on high end goods. The erosion of our tax base was a great crime, as soon as the economy went awry, tax income was around 30 billion, spending close to 60 billion. FF destroyed this country in many ways due to populism. Property boom and crash, hammering of our exports and manufacturing economy in the early 2000's, lowering taxes too low. Had our taxes remained normal, we'd be in a better position now. We'd be like the rest of Europe and our recession would have consisted of 2-3 years of -1 to -2% economic growth and be back into low growth by now. Also we could use the Pension Reserve Fund to invest in stimulus, there would be no IMF here and we'd be like a normal EU state like the Netherlands or Finland. Instead populism and FF's brand of it has sent friends of mine to the 4 corners of the globe looking for work and put us into a decade of economic penury.

Gawd I havent been on boards properly in a on the so lets see the kettles come flying :pac:

Welcome back:)

I dont throw kettles, just use facts:)

raymon

nesf wrote: »

Have you a source for that? (Just checking)

Apologies Nesf , here is the link to Martin dodgy dealings

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0201/1224288694192.html


it will all be documented in the mahon report

Mr.Micro

raymon wrote: »

Apologies Nesf , here is the link to Martin dodgy dealings

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0201/1224288694192.html


it will all be documented in the mahon report

Will we ever get the Mahon Report?

It is a disgrace that even 19 seats of the Dail are currently warmed by the big fat ar*es of FF chancers. There should be none at all. Today we find that our debt has been reduced to junk status by Moody's......our country in a terrible mess. The other day Mehole was berating Enda Kenny about Roscommon hospital as if he whole mess was nothing to do with him and his rotten party and no money to pay for anything. One can only laugh at the baldy man, O'Dea, and Siffo and how stupid they sound

DJCR

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It is a disgrace that even 19 seats of the Dail are currently warmed by the big fat ar*es of FF chancers. There should be none at all.

That's not what 387,358 voters in the country feel. I think it is a disgrace that you should think yourself so high and mighty that you can cast away that many people with a sweeping statement such as the one you have just made.

Seloth

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Cause it caused the current mess were in at the moment. You cannot increase public spending above economic growth while lowering taxes at the same time. Thats what FF did.

Someone has to pay for it and that is why taxes are necessary, to pay for public spending. Not fair weather taxes like stamp duty and VAT on high end goods. The erosion of our tax base was a great crime, as soon as the economy went awry, tax income was around 30 billion, spending close to 60 billion. FF destroyed this country in many ways due to populism. Property boom and crash, hammering of our exports and manufacturing economy in the early 2000's, lowering taxes too low. Had our taxes remained normal, we'd be in a better position now. We'd be like the rest of Europe and our recession would have consisted of 2-3 years of -1 to -2% economic growth and be back into low growth by now. Also we could use the Pension Reserve Fund to invest in stimulus, there would be no IMF here and we'd be like a normal EU state like the Netherlands or Finland. Instead populism and FF's brand of it has sent friends of mine to the 4 corners of the globe looking for work and put us into a decade of economic penury.




Welcome back:)

I dont throw kettles, just use facts:)

That is actually a brilliant point.I know I cant really defend myself here after saying it but even though I do support a populist view I dont think it should be the leading factor overall.One thing which does annoy me is how the other leading partys called for the same increase in spending.By all means those tax cuts were foolish but as Bertie said(I'm not a fan of him to admit)"People demanded more and more" and in turn the government did which as you said lead us to a longer recession.

FF is wishing to go back to grassroots as many of its older members are stating.But I think there is a general consensus and acknowledgement that a whole populist view isnt right.My mothers 2nd cousin who happens to be a former TD told me quite recently of how even though you may have the kindest heart you cannot be kind in politics.And as one of my politics lectures said a politician must be able to be able to shake with one hand while at the same time be able to thump you with the other.

It is those sort of reasons I was ery much turned off Lab and FG recently.ith promises made and then quite quickly cut away.I know it was FF gov who extended the mess of the global recession but you have to admit atleast the early post Cowen FF did exaggerate such promises.

The party is changing which even Bruton acknowledged.The mistakes of the past wont be forgotten and the people will be harsh but by all means I do truely believe FF is going in the right direction.Each party in Ireland needs a good kick up the arse not just FF.As cheesy as this sounds it might just be a beginning.More and more indepedants are being voted(Which I do love the idea cept for those such as Mick Wallace and athose other eejits that refuse to wear suits etc :rolleyes:)while more and more stronger left partys rise such as ULA and SF so this should be a sign to the larger partys.Loath them or love em FF is progressing.

Thanks for the welcome back btw .

This is one of the few threads I seen about FF that hasnt emerged into a flame war heh.Lets hpe it stays a bit civilized :pac:

raymon

Seloth wrote: »

FF is wishing to go back to grassroots as many of its older members are stating.

What is grassroots ??? What does this mean?

What are they doing now that is not grassroots.?

Was Charlie grassroots? M Martin?

Cathal O

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fianna-fail-to-keep-name-2819912.html

Unfortunatly the name is staying, i was kind of hoping for a few suggestions for a new name,
The Judean peoples front
The Reptilian Party.
'Fianna Bochtaineachta' (Soldiers of Poverty)?

O well, at least with the name staying, the name will be linked with their induced crises forever more, i hope.

toby08

look this thread can go on forever but if there was an election today I think FF would not be where they were in popularity stakes but would bounce back.
my reasons are as follows the present government were elected because yes ff wrecked the country ..but also for the following !! both leaders were preaching truth and clarity .well we know now thats well and truly gone both were found out rather easily at the first hurdle....lets think about some other promises (bearing in mind we are only a few months into their reign) most vulnerable will not be targeted joan burton was not in class that day. Wrongdoers in banks semi state etc would be caught and punished....please can I be punished too with a generous bonus and a healthy pension.
the present government were aware of the state of the country and yes the have to play the cards they were dealt with but I for one voted on the promise we will not go down ff's road we will resist the EU and IMF tell that to special needs assistants and to families with special needs children. All we did was give FF a much deserved kick in the goolies we as the electorate have brought no changes ....there are no options out there for change bear in mind we are not in the worst of this yet get the boat or plane while you still can.

later12

A name change would not work unless FF merged with another party (a la Labour and Democratic Left).

A name change under the current Oireachtas make up would appear as FF trying to bury their identity, without having any merger to back up a genuine new departure. And there are few things that will evaporate public confidence in a party like a membership which is baselessly trying to cover up the party identity.

What would be best for FF, saving any attrition of support for the government, would be a merger with some upcoming young party after the next general election.

Or they could just get on with it and merge with Fine Gael, since both parties are effectively identical in terms of ideology.

crumlinbob

In four years time after the electorate have been battered and bruised by cuts upon cuts they will go to the polls and will decide to get rid of the present government. Who do you think they will vote for instead? The Shinners? No way, they will put on the blinkers and vote for FF again. As a people we deserve the politicians we get because we are afraid of change. A vote for the same-oh, same-oh will result in the same-oh, same-oh. Why anyone would think any different is beyond comprehension!

apoeiguq3094y

godtabh wrote: »

When they have zero % of the vote the only way is up. FF may still go up and down depending on what happens here over the next 3-5 years.

Personally I dont see myself voting for them for a long long time unless there is a total change (and a genuine change) in the party.

Hopefully the time of generational politics is over

raymon wrote: »

What is grassroots ??? What does this mean?

What are they doing now that is not grassroots.?

Was Charlie grassroots? M Martin?

FF's problem was that its success attracted people, rather than the values its stood for. Starting with Haughey, a lot of people with power within the party were there because of FF's domination of Irish politics over the last 70 years.

Grassroots means giving the party back to the members. The parlimentary party has too much control over the party as a whole.

TBH I don't think generational politics is the problem really. Some of the longer dynasties in the party have given us great statesmen (brian lenihan & eamonn o cuiv). I don't think it matters who someone's parents were- its more important what they stand for (if anything).

Mr.Micro

DJCR wrote: »

That's not what 387,358 voters in the country feel. I think it is a disgrace that you should think yourself so high and mighty that you can cast away that many people with a sweeping statement such as the one you have just made.

Clearly misguided voters, who live immune to unemployment and all the cuts and all the rest of the problems, added to those the voters who will always vote FF no matter what they do. Sad or what. Thankfully the rest of the voters in the country thought differently.

As far as being high and mighty, not me, but Mehole and his band of wasters are the ones sitting high and mighty drawing big salaries and shameless sitting on committees immune from it all. i hope that the rotten party sinks into oblivion.

Liam Byrne

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

TBH I don't think generational politics is the problem really. Some of the longer dynasties in the party have given us great statesmen (brian lenihan & eamonn o cuiv). I don't think it matters who someone's parents were- its more important what they stand for (if anything).

Which Brian Lenihan are you trying to convince us was a "great statesman" ?

Mr "on mature recollection I did phone the president" or Mr "on mature recollection it wasn't the 'cheapest bailout ever' but if I repeat the lie enough some people might rewrite history and pretend that I was a decent politician" ?

Neither was anywhere near a "statesman".