Help me get sub 20min 5k

IamtheWalrus

Hi all,

I have a 5k on Thursday evening and want advice on preparation.

I really want to run sub 20min. The last 5k race I ran was 22.45. This was after a night on the tiles and without sleep.

That was before Xmas. Now I am back training and my recent training runs are as follows: 26, 23.30 and today 21.14.

Can any of you give me short-term advice on:
Diet - pasta every night?
Training - do I stop training or do another run tomorrow night?
Race day - should I drink lots of sports drinks all day?
Race - would a sports gel give me a boost? Do I start of slow and speed up? I need to be running 4 mins/k.

I need to get under 20mins.

Thanks,
Walrus

RayCun

Its not going to happen. Nothing you can do between now and Thursday is going to make you 80 seconds faster over 5k.

Diet isn't going to make a difference (unless you eat too much and get bloated, or drink so much you have to stop and use the toilet after a mile) because you are not going to run out of stored energy over that distance. The limiting factors will be leg speed and ability to use oxygen, which are not going to improve in three days.

Do an easy run or two between now and the race, and start off at a pace you can maintain for the entire distance, to get your fastest time. But if you want to break 20 minutes, you'll need to pick another race, and follow aa proper training plan.

IamtheWalrus

RayCun wrote: »

Its not going to happen. Nothing you can do between now and Thursday is going to make you 80 seconds faster over 5k.

Diet isn't going to make a difference (unless you eat too much and get bloated, or drink so much you have to stop and use the toilet after a mile) because you are not going to run out of stored energy over that distance. The limiting factors will be leg speed and ability to use oxygen, which are not going to improve in three days.

Do an easy run or two between now and the race, and start off at a pace you can maintain for the entire distance, to get your fastest time. But if you want to break 20 minutes, you'll need to pick another race, and follow aa proper training plan.

Thanks for your reply. If I start off a little faster, should I be close to shaving off 80secs? Haven't I been doing that already? Only last week I ran 26..

mloc123

If he is running 21:20 in training I would think come race day you could probably dip under 20...

Krusty_Clown

The preparation is done. There is very little you can do to change the outcome between now and Thursday.

Diet: Eat healthy, but don't change your diet too much from your normal diet. Stay well hydrated for the rest of the week.
Training: Depends on your typical weekly mileage/training patterns. Don't do any hard training sessions between now and race day. The day before the race, run a couple of easy miles with strides. Warm-up before the race (15-20 mins of very easy running, around 20 minutes before the race, if you are used to higher mileage).
Race day: Lots of sports drink won't do you much good, and may make you feel ill. Stay well hydrated, and drink a sports drink 60 minutes before the race. Sip water until the race begins (remember to go for a pee before the race starts!).
Pace: If it's a large field, it will be difficult to hit your planned race pace right from the start. Don't panic. Know what your splits should be and check these against a stop-watch at each km marker. See if you can find someone who has a similar target, and work with/off them during the race. Run 75 seconds faster than you did today.

Good luck!

RayCun

mloc123 wrote: »

If he is running 21:20 in training I would think come race day you could probably dip under 20...

I read it as he ran 21.20 in a 5k time trial, but maybe not...

IamtheWalrus

RayCun wrote: »

I read it as he ran 21.20 in a 5k time trial, but maybe not...

Not sure what that means but I ran 5k round a park an hour ago and did it in 21.14.

RayCun

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Not sure what that means but I ran 5k round a park an hour ago and did it in 21.14.

I mean, I think you ran that 5k as fast as you could.

nerraw1111

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

RayCun wrote: »

I read it as he ran 21.20 in a 5k time trial, but maybe not...

Not sure what that means but I ran 5k round a park an hour ago and did it in 21.14.

If you're doing that in training, you could go sub 20. If you're doing 21.14, it doesn't sound like you need to change diet to go sub 20. On race day, you can find 75 seconds extra no problem. Go for it.

IamtheWalrus

Yea, I was at my limit at 21.14 but you never know. If there are people cheering me it might make me go a little faster. If only I had another week. If only I was Hussain Bolt.

IamtheWalrus

So ya'll don't think doing one more race pace run tomorrow would be of any help? I was hoping to get a little closer to 20 so psychologically I'd believe I could do it. Bit close to the race I suppose.

corny

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

If only I was Hussain Bolt.

Is that the Iraqi sprinter!:D

IamtheWalrus

corny wrote: »

Is that the Iraqi sprinter!:D

No place for racialism in the running thread.

Krusty_Clown

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

So ya'll don't think doing one more race pace run tomorrow would be of any help? I was hoping to get a little closer to 20 so psychologically I'd believe I could do it. Bit close to the race I suppose.

Nope, it would be counter-productive. In fact you shouldn't have run 5k at race pace earlier today, as that too would have been counter-productive. Next time follow a plan, instead of making it up yourself.

How do you measure the distance of your 5k run, by the way?

IamtheWalrus

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Nope, it would be counter-productive. In fact you shouldn't have run 5k at race pace earlier today, as that too would have been counter-productive. Next time follow a plan, instead of making it up yourself.

How do you measure the distance of your 5k run, by the way?

Ah why didn't yiz tell me! Ah well. I couldn't follow a plan because I entered the run late.

I use mapmyrun.com. Why do you ask? Will it make me run slow? :eek:

RayCun

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I use mapmyrun.com. Why do you ask?

Well, it's not all that accurate - you could have run 4.9k, or 5.1, o something like that. So the good news is, maybe you're already faster than you think.

tmc86

maybe you're already faster than you think.

love the positive attitude!

IamtheWalrus

RayCun wrote: »

Well, it's not all that accurate - you could have run 4.9k, or 5.1, o something like that. So the good news is, maybe you're already faster than you think.

Or maybe shorter. Hope not. Is there a better way to measure the distance I ran? I'd like to know for pacing come race day.

PhoenixParker

Your best bet right now is probably to use your time to come up with a proper plan for the race itself.
Do you know anyone else who's going to be hitting the 20 minute mark in the race? If you do, start beside them and try to hold on.

Are there hills? Do you usually run a fast first half and try to hold on,do you run steady for the first half and sprint to finish, do you run steady to finish? Is the course marked out in kilometres or miles, or both? What timing/measuring tools do you have available to you for the race?

Work out where you need to be at 1km/5minute intervals throughout the race to hit your 20 minute goal and then try to hit them. (using whatever tools you need in such a way that it doesn't end up slowing you down!)

Going for 20 minutes, you're as likely to end up hitting 25 minutes because you blow up during the race, but you never know your luck and you might just do it.

PhoenixParker

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Or maybe shorter. Hope not. Is there a better way to measure the distance I ran? I'd like to know for pacing come race day.

Did you measure map my run by going through and clicking each point or did you just leave it running on your iphone?

If you left it running on your iphone, then go into the program and fix up the route (in satellite) to go over exactly where you ran. That should help a little. I usually find it measures a little bit short, but then occasionally it measures long.

IamtheWalrus

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Your best bet right now is probably to use your time to come up with a proper plan for the race itself.
Do you know anyone else who's going to be hitting the 20 minute mark in the race? If you do, start beside them and try to hold on.

Are there hills? Do you usually run a fast first half and try to hold on,do you run steady for the first half and sprint to finish, do you run steady to finish? Is the course marked out in kilometres or miles, or both? What timing/measuring tools do you have available to you for the race?

Work out where you need to be at 1km/5minute intervals throughout the race to hit your 20 minute goal and then try to hit them. (using whatever tools you need in such a way that it doesn't end up slowing you down!)

Going for 20 minutes, you're as likely to end up hitting 25 minutes because you blow up during the race, but you never know your luck and you might just do it.

I don't know anyone running 20, yet anyway.

I usually start out at the pace that will get me in at 20mins. Then in the second half I slow a little resulting in the minute or two over.

The course is in km so I am aiming to run each k at 4 or under. My problem is that I am finding 4m/k very challenging. I know I'm really asking too much of myself, giving myself too little time. It's not the ed of the world if I don't get it, most of my workmates won't. Just came here looking for little bits of advice to help me achieve my goal. I am little sickened I ran at race pace today but hopefully it gave me a mental boost if not physical. Hopefully, I'm feeling confident that on the day and perform well.

IamtheWalrus

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Did you measure map my run by going through and clicking each point or did you just leave it running on your iphone?

If you left it running on your iphone, then go into the program and fix up the route (in satellite) to go over exactly where you ran. That should help a little. I usually find it measures a little bit short, but then occasionally it measures long.

I just measured it via the mapmyrun site. No idea if it's accurate.

AntiVirus

I think you might get pretty close to your sub 20 minutes on the day, just go out and give it all on the day and keep telling yourself you can do it!

Good luck with the race and post back and let us know what time you got

T runner

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I don't know anyone running 20, yet anyway.

I usually start out at the pace that will get me in at 20mins. Then in the second half I slow a little resulting in the minute or two over.

The course is in km so I am aiming to run each k at 4 or under. My problem is that I am finding 4m/k very challenging. I know I'm really asking too much of myself, giving myself too little time. It's not the ed of the world if I don't get it, most of my workmates won't. Just came here looking for little bits of advice to help me achieve my goal. I am little sickened I ran at race pace today but hopefully it gave me a mental boost if not physical. Hopefully, I'm feeling confident that on the day and perform well.

A tactic for racing 5k is to target teh 4th kilometer. Thats where you can get your PB.

What usually happens in a 5k is that at about 2.5-3k you are feeling lousy and have still got a relatively long way to go at that speed. Most runners fade a little here and may pick it up again in teh last 500m.

Psychologically you need to accept taht feeling crap at this stage is normal in a 5k. You need to run evenly out to 3k and then push it hard for the next kilometer. At 4k youll be hurting but the finish is now attanable so youll keep hanging on at that pace especially if things are going well.

Dont leave it till you get to 3k before you make the decision. Decide before teh race: when i pass teh 3k marker im pushing on for 1k no matter how im feeling. There is no choice in the matter, when you pass the marker you automatically do it. Get your head to really accept and decide to do that and youll be running fast in the last 2k where PBs are won and lost.

Mr Slow

Pick a 5k towards the end of the season like the Rathfarnham one and train for it! There's no easy fix.

IamtheWalrus

Mr Slow wrote: »

Pick a 5k towards the end of the season like the Rathfarnham one and train for it! There's no easy fix.

mmm, don't think road races are for me. Sky news keeps my mind off the pain!

Woddle

T runner wrote: »

A tactic for racing 5k is to target teh 4th kilometer. Thats where you can get your PB.

I remember reading this before, interesting and it's similar to how I ran my PB.

Racing Flat wrote: »

I would always have been a supporter of negative splits for all race distances, but someone sent me this yesterday, a bit of food for thought. Don't know where it came for or how robust the research was but anyway...


The surest way to blow a 5-K is to start too fast. But just how fast is too fast?

Researchers from the University of New Hampshire examined the effect of different pacing strategies on 5-K performance. Their subjects were 11 female runners from the school's cross-country team, who trained an average of 35 miles per week and had 5-K PRs ranging from 18 to 21 minutes. After running two 5-K time trials to establish a baseline pace, the subjects then completed three more 5-Ks using decidedly different pacing strategies: The subjects ran the first mile of each race either equal to, three percent faster, or six percent faster than their established baseline pace per mile. After the first mile, the subjects could change their pace to finish as quickly as possible.

The results surprised everyone familiar with the go-out-easy approach. Eight of the 11 women ran their best 5-K times (averaging 20:39) when they ran the first mile six percent faster than their baseline pace. The other three subjects posted their best times (20:52) going out three percent faster than baseline pace. The even-paced runners produced the slowest times, averaging 21:11. The faster-starting women did slow down more during the race, but the even-paced runners simply couldn't make up the time lost in a slower start.

So how is it that these runners achieved their best times by logging their first mile a seemingly suicidal 26 seconds faster than their predicted 5-K pace? According to the study, at the end of the first mile, the even-paced runners were at only 78 percent of their VO2 max, an effort level more akin to a tempo run than a 5-K race--below their potential. The three-percent and six-percent faster starts put the subjects at 82 and 83 percent of VO2 max after the first mile, which is closer to the intensity you'd expect from an experienced runner racing the first mile of a 5-K.

So should we all go out as fast as possible in every race? Not exactly. Moderately trained runners may benefit from a faster start because they're probably not starting fast enough in the first place. The researchers suggest that their study findings are probably most applicable to competitive open and master's division runners, not elites who already know how best to push themselves right from the gun or beginners who totally lack a sense of pacing. And even competitive runners shouldn't try the go-out-fast strategy in longer races, when other variables become more important than first-mile pace--like, say, finishing another 25.2 miles.

IamtheWalrus

Woddle wrote: »

I remember reading this before, interesting and it's similar to how I ran my PB.

The second quote seems to be advocating a fast start and slow finish. Am I right?

Mr Slow

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

The second quote seems to be advocating a fast start and slow finish. Am I right?

A fast start and a slow to your planned race pace. IE If you're running 6:30's you go out for the first at say 6:15. (figures are for demonstration purposes only and do not reflect the 6% or 3% as per Woodle's post:P)

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Race day: Lots of sports drink won't do you much good, and may make you feel ill. Stay well hydrated, and drink a sports drink 60 minutes before the race. Sip water until the race begins (remember to go for a pee before the race starts!).

I would have thought that the sports drink 1 hour before is sufficient and there is no need for any more liquid afterwards for a 20min 5k? sipping water until the race begins is just unneccessary weight addition, no?? If you have drank plenty of water the day before the race you are adequately hydrated, especially for a 5k.

My 2c - if you have not raced before, you will blow your time from training away no hassle. Also, the run on Monday will be out of your system by Thursday so you are ok - the rule of thumb is a day recovery per mile at race pace so 3 days for a 5k. Biggest mistake in a first time race is to go out too fast - you are so high on adrenaline at the startline that you burst out of the blocks and run the first 1km faster than you have ever run in your life but think you are just jogging - you pay for that later. Take things very easy for the first 500m and then latch onto someone as they pass you who you think are running the pace you want to be. I always laugh when I see countless people look at their watches at the first mile or km marker and say "Oh f**k, too fast"

JosDel

Why does it have to be this race, Can you not pick a later race and follow a plan as KC mentioned and there should be no problem ?

IamtheWalrus

JosDel wrote: »

Why does it have to be this race, Can you not pick a later race and follow a plan as KC mentioned and there should be no problem ?

I think there's some confusion here. There is a race on that lots of companies are taking part. Weeks ago I declined the offer but then changed my mind, with weeks to spare.

I don't want to enter another race because this is the one my workmates are running. I have ran 2 marathons. I'm not a novice. I just haven't conpetitvely ran a 5k before hence me looking for advice of 5kers.

There is no plan B.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

I would have thought that the sports drink 1 hour before is sufficient and there is no need for any more liquid afterwards for a 20min 5k? sipping water until the race begins is just unneccessary weight addition, no?? If you have drank plenty of water the day before the race you are adequately hydrated, especially for a 5k.

Sip water instead of drinking lots of sports drink all day, as the OP had suggested. A few sips of water won't add any unnecessary weight, but yeah, not really necessary.

I would've thought that running 5k at planned race pace three days before the actual race would be a bad idea as it would still be in the legs. Any of the regular 5k racers got any opinions? It just doesn't sound like good advice.

Timmaay

Hmm, ok knocking 74sec off your 5k pb is a tall order for sure, but not impossible at all. 5k is the sort of distance that if you are mentally tuned in, you can push out relatively hard, and then just doggedly try to hang on for last 1500m. If you want to run 20mins flat, then just go for it!! 20mins works out bang on 4.00min per km, use a watch and go out and stick to these splits no matter what, you should be able to do that for 3k at least, and after that its down to how much you want it!!!

If you say no at 3/4k, when you feeling tired, but not close enough to the finish, if you give in that voice saying my legs are sore, slow down, give up, then its over!! But if you don't, if you really really want to break 20mins, and keep on push on then you can defy the odds, and once you are holding the splits at 400m to go, pure adrenaline should take you over the line!!

And Krusty, running 2 5ks 3days apart wouldn't really be ideal, but not too much of a problem, once the person is a regular runner, and is use of training hard every few days. I did a 5k a few weeks back, it was a big race for me that I had been building up to for a while, I had a bad race and was abit disappointed afterwards, but put it down to a few factors like the wind and lack of competition to drag me along. 2days later, there was another 5k, that I had not planned on running, but I decided sure what the hell, went down and did it, pushed out hard from the beginning, I felt good, not tired at all from the previous race, and pulled a decent enough PB in it.

Mr Slow

Timmaay wrote: »

I felt good, not tired at all from the previous race, and pulled a decent enough PB in it.

Was it sub 20?

Krusty_Clown

Mr Slow wrote: »

Was it sub 20?

Sub 16:20.

AntiVirus

Timmaay wrote: »

If you say no at 3/4k, when you feeling tired, but not close enough to the finish, if you give in that voice saying my legs are sore, slow down, give up, then its over!!

Just remember when that voice pops into your head because it will, remember the posters here who said it can't be done and prove them wrong! :P

Mr Slow

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sub 16:20.

MisterDrak

My 2c worth:-

Most the good advice has already been given, however:-

1. Get your head right before the race... Visualise each KM (if you know the route) of the race in your head, each straight, each bend and the last 400m where you should be on your toes sprinting...

2. Get a decent warm up in, 15 - 20min before the start. Get a few (not to many) high knees and or strides in here too, should make you feel fast...

3. Get a good start position before the off, make sure there are no walkers on front of you...

pconn062

I think running a fast 5k all comes down to how well you can deal with pain. Lets face it, its the shortest distance most of us "hobby runners" will do so we will be running at our top pace. So you need be able to push through the pain barrier at 3 and 4k and ignore the burning legs and lungs, and you will be more likely to get a PB. At my last 5k, where I got my PB (a modest 20:50), I was really suffering around 4k but just put my head down and kept pushing on, and it worked!:D

T runner

Woddle wrote: »

I remember reading this before, interesting and it's similar to how I ran my PB.

Nice one, excellent piece. Now i know why Timaay finished ahead of me in the Donore 5k.;)

So in shorter races an even spilt first portion means that less of the race is run at race intensity.
Would like to see the results of a 10k test: to see if the 3% or even paced strtegy caught the 6% strategy over the longer distance.

Maybe the 3% strategy might be the winner for a 10k.

Woddle

Here is the whole thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055323175

You had some advice about running the 4th km hard so I'm going to give that a go tonight.

Timmaay

Thats a great read Wobble. I had a 2mile race today, just a small local race, 1mile downhill and turn back and go up it, I pushed out like a lunatic on the way down, tucked into the lead group, and after 1k I was fairly tired, breathing heavy, and thinking what the hell am I at, this is suicide pace ha. But I pushed on anyways, and turned at the bottom, in about 4.50ish, wayy too quick ha, legs were defo feeling the hill the 1st few 100 back up.

But by then I had only 1200 to go, so said to hell with it, and made my move and pushed ahead into the lead, one of the lads watching shouted only 600 to go at that point, and I knew I could let adrenaline bring me up the rest of the hill to the finish. I know 2miles is a different beast again to 5k, but even still, if I had not pushed out hard on the 1st mile, I don't think there is any way I would have come back up the hill much quicker at all.

The 5k that I pulled a pb in few weeks back, I actually had steady enough splits in that, 16.20 was always the aim. 16.10 is my next target, after reading the above, I might actually try go all out, and see if I can hold 15.50 pace 1st 3.5k, then see how things pan out ha!

Timmaay

Mr Slow wrote: »

Was it sub 20?

As the lads said, it was sub 20 alright, but I certainly didn't knock 74 secs off my previous pb ha!! Not to say thats unachievable, John Coughlan knocked something crazy like 40sec off his 5k pb in an IMC meeting in Irishtown a few weeks back, and came in not much above 14mins :O, insane to here of someone knocking that much time off a pb when you are at that level!

IamtheWalrus

The day has arrived. Deliberately came to work 1.5 hours late to get lots of sleep. Had a bowl of wheetabix, 2 brown bread toast, protein shake and a cup of tea for breakfast (the usual). I've now started on sipping at water. I spoke to a sports nutrition friend last night and she said to have a carb meal latest 3 hours before race so I'll do that. Might drink a sports drink and hour before the race. After that it's down to how much I want it.

AntiVirus

Good Luck! Make sure you come back and post your time!







Don't come back if you don't break 20 mins

Macanri

All the best for it.

I would say have the carb meal latest 4 or 5 hours before the race. And don't go mad eating more than a normal meal. That might be alright the day before a race but definately not the day of a race.

Don't forget to start digging deep around the 3km mark.

Head The Wall

This could be worth a try OP, seemed to work for him, good luck either way.

Greyhound trainer 'gave his dog
Viagra'

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/article/59361/

IamtheWalrus

Right, I'm ready to head to the race. I've had a small portion of pasta at lunch and then what will be 3 hours before the race. I will sip a Lucozade sport an hour before. I've been drinking water all day.

I'm a little nervous but I always am before races. I'm not going to start too fast. I'll get a feel for how I'm feeling in the fist 500m. If I'm feeling good I'll aim for 4min per k and hopefully if I am near the finish just below 20mins, I'll have it in me to sprint.

Thanks for all the advice. I'll post the outcome later tonight.

IamtheWalrus

The results are in: 21.30. The start was very congested even though I was close enough to the front. I didn't notice any markers along the route so I was blindly running. Very disorganised. My legs got very tired around the 3k mark and because I didn't know how long was left I slowed a little, just so I'd make the finish. I came 698 out of 6000 and 5th out of 20 of my workmates so it's not a disaster.

What I learned from this is to be more composed at the start. Because of the difficulty breaking clear at the start, I over compensated and ran the 2nd km too fast. Breaking sub 20 really was a tall order in hindsight but overall, no complaints.

Thanks a lot for all your help boardsies.

Walrus

macinalli

Unfortunate, but remember that a PB means going faster than you ever have before for a distance. That's not easy and it needs everything to fall in to place on the day. It sounds like the race was not ideal (congestion) but also some inexperience on your part (too quick 2nd km). Main thing is to learn from the experience and improve the next time you race.