Proud to be LGBT?

AhSureTisGrand

I should probably start off by saying I'm heterosexual and don't give a damn what consenting adults do with their genitals.

The term "gay pride" strikes me as somewhat odd. None of the "queers" I know of ever chose to be that way. They just are. Whether or not they were like that from birth, there doesn't seem to have been any choice involved. So why be proud of something for which you can claim no credit? It seems no different to me than being proud of your skin colour or the piece of land on which you were born.

The flipside is that it is just as absurd to be ashamed of being LGBT, which means that a lack of pride does not equate to shame. So, should you be proud to be LGBT? If so, what's the difference between that and being proud to be white?

wonderfulname

Or black pride, seen as we're mentioning race, what was that all about?

Its pride in the face of prejudice, remove the prejudice, and nobody gives a rats arse to be proud or ashamed.

L.Jenkins

Difference between being proud of being white or trans. As a trans person, my identity is not recognised under Irish and I suffer discrimination and possible violence just for being me. I didn't choose that either.

gcgirl

I suppose when you look at the history and the fact that even now 2 guys can't walk down an street in Dublin with out thinking if i hold my bf's hand we might get beating up, crap but true and it also the fact you can walk down that street esp when there are 26,000 of you marching down the same street and of course the history of what it was like 10,20,30's years ago and beyond in Dublin and then there are other countries where you can get killed for being gay! Ireland may be **** at the moment but i'm proud to be an Irish Gay woman

AhSureTisGrand

wonderfulname wrote: »

Or black pride, seen as we're mentioning race, what was that all about?

If you ask me, I think that's silly too

jaffacakesyum

I agree with you OP - I'm certainly not proud to be bisexual, no more than I'm proud to be white or have brown eyes or whatever.

But yeah, I guess the origins of being proud to be LGBT is to do with the fact that we are discriminated on. If we were all born equal there'd be no need for 'gay pride'.

That said, it's interesting that the above poster made an analogy to black pride. I'm thinking of other sections of society who have been historically discriminated against...ok so there's blacks, LGBT...what about Jews? Historically they've had an awful time full of discrimination, hate, genocide... yet I don't see many 'Jew pride' going on.

It's interesting to note. Is gay pride really needed?

AhSureTisGrand

Is it fair to say that "gay pride" is about showing that you're not ashamed of whom you are? That's fine to me, but I just don't think "pride" and "shame" should be used to refer to things that are not of one's own doing. Perhaps I'm being a little pedantic, but the term "gay pride" suggests to me that it's not absurd to be ashamed of the way you were born

Annasopra

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

I should probably start off by saying I'm heterosexual and don't give a damn what consenting adults do with their genitals.

The term "gay pride" strikes me as somewhat odd. None of the "queers" I know of ever chose to be that way. They just are. Whether or not they were like that from birth, there doesn't seem to have been any choice involved. So why be proud of something for which you can claim no credit? It seems no different to me than being proud of your skin colour or the piece of land on which you were born.

The flipside is that it is just as absurd to be ashamed of being LGBT, which means that a lack of pride does not equate to shame. So, should you be proud to be LGBT? If so, what's the difference between that and being proud to be white?

What I said here and here

oisindoyle

Well as someone else pointed out ,the only time I can safely hold my partners hand walking down O Connell St is when I particpate in the pride parade.
The origins of pride parades go back to the stonewall riots.
Gay people yes have to be proud of who thye are because of the prejuices that still exist in this country thats the reality of it.
There is a sizeable amount of people who do not see gay people as equals ,that do not see gay people as "normal".
Gay bashing and homophobia is alive adnd well in Ireland and unless gay people make a stand and hold their heads up without being discriminated against or bullied it will continue .
As it stands gay people are not equal in Irish society .
I am interested in your line OP " I don't give a damn what consenting adults do with their genitals."
Why make this statement at all ? Do you think that gay people are only interested in their genitals ? Gay people you know eat work, play, pay bills ,worry love hate die laugh cry .
would you sa the same when talking about hetrosexual people? I think not

oisindoyle

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I agree with you OP - I'm certainly not proud to be bisexual, no more than I'm proud to be white or have brown eyes or whatever.

But yeah, I guess the origins of being proud to be LGBT is to do with the fact that we are discriminated on. If we were all born equal there'd be no need for 'gay pride'.

That said, it's interesting that the above poster made an analogy to black pride. I'm thinking of other sections of society who have been historically discriminated against...ok so there's blacks, LGBT...what about Jews? Historically they've had an awful time full of discrimination, hate, genocide... yet I don't see many 'Jew pride' going on.

It's interesting to note. Is gay pride really needed?

Well jews and black people have marched in the past for equal rights .
Yes gay pride is needed,just look at what happened at a gay pride march in Croatcia 2 weeks ago .300 LGBT people marched and 10,000 people came out and thre bottles rocks and other missles at them .
It was disgusting and shameful ,Until LGBT people have equal rights then there will always be a need for pride marches .Besides pride day is a great day for EVERYONE

oli2

It's not so much about pride as it is the opposite of shame.

AhSureTisGrand

oisindoyle wrote: »

would you sa the same when talking about hetrosexual people?

Yes?

wonderfulname

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

If you ask me, I think that's silly too

Straight white middle class male, grew up Christian, that's you yes? I think you just have no concept of what it feels like to be looked down on for something you can't change.

AhSureTisGrand

wonderfulname wrote: »

Straight white middle class male, grew up Christian, that's you yes? I think you just have no concept of what it feels like to be looked down on for something you can't change.

I'd like to re-emphasise the difference between being unashamed and being proud. When people take pride (as opposed to simply being unashamed) in these things, do they not validate the notion that someone could be ashamed of things that are not their doing?

wonderfulname

So I'm right, you've no concept of the feeling.

African Americans were proud in the face of prejudice, Catholics in Northern Ireland, Women in the workplace, "pride" has shown itself to be one of the natural human responses to being discriminated against for something that cannot be changed.

It does not validate the notion that they should be ashamed, it says "WE ARE HERE, GET THE F USED TO IT", as opposed to doing nothing either way, which suggests the status quo is just fine to remain, that nobody cares for equal rights, that peoples prejudices are justified.

AhSureTisGrand

wonderfulname wrote: »

So I'm right, you've no concept of the feeling.

African Americans were proud in the face of prejudice, Catholics in Northern Ireland, Women in the workplace, "pride" has shown itself to be one of the natural human responses to being discriminated against for something that cannot be changed.

Is this not better described as defiance, resilience and courage? Are you saying that people could not have stood up for themselves without a sense of pride in the lot they were given?

wonderfulname

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Is this not better described as defiance, resilience and courage? Are you saying that people could not have stood up for themselves without a sense of pride in the lot they were given?

Am I doing it wrong?

I agree that it is not "pride" in the sense of pride at an accomplishment, many people mistake this, the word can also mean to walk with your head held high, to be aware of your dignity, it isn't defiance, it is certainly not resilience (that suggests the status quo does remain), and it merely requires courage.

Meesared

Ok ive got another one for you, people can be proud of being Irish, English, American etc. etc. they didnt choose that either, and noone ever sees a problem with that? do they?

AhSureTisGrand

Meesared wrote: »

Ok ive got another one for you, people can be proud of being Irish, English, American etc. etc. they didnt choose that either, and noone ever sees a problem with that? do they?

A lot of people do. I'm one of them

Meesared

Why? Do you have a problem with pride as a concept?

AhSureTisGrand

wonderfulname wrote: »

Am I doing it wrong?

I agree that it is not "pride" in the sense of pride at an accomplishment, many people mistake this, the word can also mean to walk with your head held high, to be aware of your dignity, it isn't defiance, it is certainly not resilience (that suggests the status quo does remain), and it merely requires courage.

Perhaps we have got our wires crossed here. We seem to be using the word "pride" in quite different ways. If this happens often, is "pride" perhaps a poor word to use? That's kinda been my point in this thread. "Pride" seems to be an inaccurate way of putting it

AhSureTisGrand

Meesared wrote: »

Why? Do you have a problem with pride as a concept?

Not all the time. An athlete who wins a gold medal in the Olympics is proud of their achievement and the hard work they put in. And quite rightly so imo. But people who are proud of accidents of birth? I don't think so. I've never heard of people being proud of other instances of sheer dumb luck, such as winning the lotto

Meesared

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

But people who are proud of accidents of birth?

Erm, you might wanna rephrase that...

wonderfulname

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Perhaps we have got our wires crossed here. We seem to be using the word "pride" in quite different ways. If this happens often, is "pride" perhaps a poor word to use? That's kinda been my point in this thread. "Pride" seems to be an inaccurate way of putting it

So your entire thing against pride is that you only know one definition of the word, oh dear... the english language is not clear cut, words can have a variety of meanings, sometimes these meanings are so close that some people get confused...

Kanoe

There's that Irish catholic guilt complex which continues to underline the majority of society today where pride is one of the seven deadly sins and so it is feared as a word or a concept, lest we're heading for our downfall. It has become tangled up in our morals and ethics and maintains the self loathing psyche that makes us indelibly Irish.
op, if shame is something that is thrust upon us by others, guilt is our own sense of having done wrong and the word pride in this instance is used to reject the former, not the latter. It is about not being ashamed (living with other's shame)

Aishae

what it means to me: im proud of who i am despite what anyone else thinks and what the world throws at me (inequality in certain areas etc) - in a way it IS an achievement to be who you are because it takes guts.

i can see why pride might seem an inaccurate word but i think the problem lies more with how people understand the word. pride doesnt just mean something tangible that is achieved (like an award)
im proud i havent just curled up into a ball and told the world to go feck itself because of all the medical dramas and operations - and i still keep doing my thing. if my body doesnt want to walk ill go and do it etc. its not that dissimiliar (spelling?) technically i havent done anything that others would say 'well done!' for. but IM proud of it.
just the same way im proud to be who i am - which is gay.

even though i question the effectiveness of the gay pride parade i do not question the word pride and that everyone is entitled to feel it

MJRS

Meesared wrote: »

Erm, you might wanna rephrase that...

Why?

Annasopra

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Perhaps we have got our wires crossed here. We seem to be using the word "pride" in quite different ways. If this happens often, is "pride" perhaps a poor word to use? That's kinda been my point in this thread. "Pride" seems to be an inaccurate way of putting it

No I don't think pride is an inaccurate phrase at all. For me pride means many things - to walk with your head held high, a celebration of diversity, a personal and political statement, an affirmation of identity, a creation of visibility, an empowerment. I also really like the idea of 'mad pride' see www.madprideireland.ie/

MicraBoy

Dictionary.com wrote:

pride
   [prahyd] Show IPA noun, verb, prid·ed, prid·ing.
noun
1.
a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2.
the state or feeling of being proud.
3.
a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.

In this sense what is due to oneself is equality and parity of esteem.

Printemps93

Meesared wrote: »

Erm, you might wanna rephrase that...

Yeah .My thoughts exactly tell the "real IRA " that being Irish is just an accident at birth and see if you live to tell the tale

wonderfulname

Better again, tell them that their ancestors are Brits, that'd go down well...

Why are we talking about the RA'?

L.Jenkins

wonderfulname wrote: »

Better again, tell them that their ancestors are Brits, that'd go down well...

Why are we talking about the RA'?

My ancestors were British, scottish nobles infact. Should I be proud, maybe, but their title came with the demise of a one William Wallace :P

Printemps93

wonderfulname wrote: »

Why are we talking about the RA'?

because being born gay is an accident the same as being born Irish is also an accident

KnifeWRENCH

I see where the OP is coming from, and pretty much agree with everything he's said. I understand the concept of Pride and why it exists, but I hate the name. Sexuality is not something you should be "proud" of, which is not to say it's something you should be ashamed of.

Being proud of something you have no control over (like sexuality, race, gender, nationality etc.) ....I just don't get it.

That's just me though.

apache

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

I see where the OP is coming from, and pretty much agree with everything he's said. I understand the concept of Pride and why it exists, but I hate the name. Sexuality is not something you should be "proud" of, which is not to say it's something you should be ashamed of.

Being proud of something you have no control over (like sexuality, race, gender, nationality etc.) ....I just don't get it.

That's just me though.

i agree with you. is the op straight? i think he is. i think this input is very valid.

apache

Meesared wrote: »

Ok ive got another one for you, people can be proud of being Irish, English, American etc. etc. they didnt choose that either, and noone ever sees a problem with that? do they?

i am proud of being irish. i am proud of being gay. its a whole different concept when it takes over your every living breathing moment. it does not define me. people know i'm irish and gay. i do not feel the need to transform the word "pride" into something other than feeling good in myself.

wonderfulname

Its not pride in the sense you guys are saying though!!

It's like people merging the ideas of respecting for example religion, and the idea that respect must be earned, they're two different words! In the first instance it roughly means to be considerate, in the second, to hold in great esteem, totally bloody different!

Here people are mixing up, again an example, ones pride at aspects of their academic record, with pride in oneself, the first is satisfaction taken in an achievement, or association, the latter, a sense of ones dignity, or value, to hold your head high, why is it so hard?

apache

i think its up to each individual how they conceive the word "pride" to mean.

wonderfulname

No, it's up to the accepted definitions and context, pride can also mean haughtiness, but I wouldn't use that definition in this context.

Printemps93

wonderfulname wrote: »

No, it's up to the accepted definitions and context, .

Yeh I agree with you here

deirdre_dub

wonderfulname wrote: »

I agree that it is not "pride" in the sense of pride at an accomplishment

For some, it is. I think that, for example, someone who lives in an environment that is toxic for LGBT people (eg a super-religious environment) can feel pride in the accomplishment of living true to themselves in spite of what that truth costs them.

AhSureTisGrand

Printemps93 wrote: »

Yeah .My thoughts exactly tell the "real IRA " that being Irish is just an accident at birth and see if you live to tell the tale

Fortunately I'm not talking to bigots here

Printemps93

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Fortunately I'm not talking to bigots here

Too True

Annasopra

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Fortunately I'm not talking to bigots here

Some lgbt people can be bigoted in ways - e.g. Some gay men can be very mysoginist, a lot of lgbt people can be very anti traveller, some LGB people can be transphobic - unfortunately identifying as l or g or b or t doesn't always mean rejecting bigotry

Aard

mango salsa wrote: »

Some lgbt people can be bigoted in ways - e.g. Some gay men can be very mysoginist, a lot of lgbt people can be very anti traveller, some LGB people can be transphobic - unfortunately identifying as l or g or b or t doesn't always mean rejecting bigotry

Interesting point. A lot of people I've come across somehow assume that all gay people are angels, simply by virtue of the fact that they tend to be discriminated against themselves so they know the score. It usually manifests itself not by assuming that I'm pro- this or that cause, but by utter shock when I come out with something even the least bit non-PC.

AhSureTisGrand

mango salsa wrote: »

Some lgbt people can be bigoted in ways - e.g. Some gay men can be very mysoginist, a lot of lgbt people can be very anti traveller, some LGB people can be transphobic - unfortunately identifying as l or g or b or t doesn't always mean rejecting bigotry

Nonetheless I imagine the posters on this forum compare quite favourably to the Real IRA

wonderfulname

Are you suggesting for one moment that there aren't gay people in the real IRA that share every one of their values? There may even be one here, we don't know.


Might even be me

L.Jenkins

I always knew you had a bit of a terrorist in ya Wonderful :P

Printemps93

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

I always knew you had a bit of a terrorist in ya Wonderful :P

We never know what terrorists look like always beware .......
although I would have thought Kanoe would be more of a terrorist

L.Jenkins

Well she's a different kind of a terrorist!

AhSureTisGrand

wonderfulname wrote: »

Are you suggesting for one moment that there aren't gay people in the real IRA that share every one of their values? There may even be one here, we don't know.


Might even be me

Even so I defy them to try and shoot me over the Internet :P