Atheists Pretending to be Catholic

Galvasean

Didn't want to hijack the other lad's thread as this is a slightly different topic.
Basically: I have these neighbours who are friends of mine and moved to Ireland a few years ago. They are a married couple and are both very much atheists.
However, when census time came around they ticked Catholic for themselves and their two kids because they felt it would help them get into the local (Catholic ethos) school. Bear in mind there is an ET school about ten minutes drive from where we live, but they want to send their kids to teh Cathlic one as it's closer and has a better reputation (the old, 'ET schools are full o kids who don't speak English' chestnut). They are also planning to have their kids baptised as Catholics. I was flabbergasted to hear this. For starters I'm pretty sure the census is confidential and has no bearing on getting into a Catholic ethos school (correct me if I'm wrong).
I just see this as being very counter productive in terms of Secularism. It makes me wonder just how many 'secret atheist' or 'pretend Catholics' there are in this country because of the school issue. Seems we will never know how many non-religious people are out there while stuff likes this continues to happen (that doesn't even include the Catholic Mammy ticking the wrong box fiasco).
From talking to people you'd swear hardly anyone under 30 is a Catholic these days, but when census figures / baptismal records coem about suddenly virtually everyone is!
How the heck are we supposed to move away from the RCC (which most people claim to hate) when people are doing stuff like this?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Can understand the baptising thing a bit myself. If I had kids in the ROI I would be tempted to send them to a Catholic school because the country's education system is not adequately equipped to deal with the amount of children who do not speak English properly. I don't think that's an unreasonable chestnut myself, though I'd probably send them to a gaelscoil if possible, they actually are prepared for teaching kids a new language by definition.

Now whilst I understand baptising the kids I wouldn't do it myself. Now that you cannot defect from the RCC it would be morally wrong to enlist someone. (or do you have to be confirmed before they claim you?)

Ticking it on the census is just clear cut daft though.

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

How the heck are we supposed to move away from the RCC (which most people claim to hate) when people are doing stuff like this?

Until such time as the Church doesn't control the vast majority of schools.

Most parents want to put their kids in the best school possible I'd imagine, so if there are two choices and one of them is a church run school, I'd guess a lot will plump for it despite their beliefs.

I haven't kids myself, only going by friends, and stories I've heard from collegues at work etc

mailforkev

The irony of the whole thing is that the vast vast majority of the people who refer to themselves as Roman Catholic in this country would find that if they were to pick and choose which teachings of the Catholic Church that they do or do not want to follow that they are actually really Church of Ireland.

It's kind of cultural retardation in this country.

gbee

You'll find that in Irish society there was a very large percentage of the population who did not believe but followed the practice in public because it had become a tradition.

I'd say the breakdown was some one quarter were [are] fervent believers, another quarter are so-so and as much as half are in reality not Catholics at all in reality.

Except we must take the dictum that once Baptized, one is always a Catholic and one cannot renounce ~ there was a big thread on this a few months back, might be worth a search.

Galvasean

rarnes1 wrote: »

Until such time as the Church doesn't control the vast majority of schools.

But if people don't declare themselves (truthfully) as not being Catholic there will be no real need (in the eyes of the government) to change the school situation. It's a weird chicken and the egg scenario.
Everybody wants the system to change, but it sems hardly anyone is willing to take any steps to bring about change.

Rev Hellfire

Galvasean wrote: »

How the heck are we supposed to move away from the RCC (which most people claim to hate) when people are doing stuff like this?

You're working on the false assumption that most people actually care.
To be honest I put one of mine down as catholic to ensure they got in where I wanted them. Personally I'd do it again if would secure an advantage for them again.

magicbastarder

Galvasean wrote: »

For starters I'm pretty sure the census is confidential and has no bearing on getting into a Catholic ethos school (correct me if I'm wrong).

yep, that particular gesture will be of little use to them.

magicbastarder

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

To be honest I put one of mine down as catholic to ensure they got in where I wanted them.

in the census?
i thought it was baptism which determines that you are catholic for the purposes of school acceptance?

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

But if people don't declare themselves (truthfully) as not being Catholic there will be no real need (in the eyes of the government) to change the school situation. It's a weird chicken and the egg scenario.
Everybody wants the system to change, but it sems hardly anyone is willing to take any steps to bring about change.

I agree with you about the census.

I think though we will see a reduction of church run schools before long.

Ruaírí Quinn seems to want to tackle this problem.

Rev Hellfire

magicbastarder wrote: »

in the census?
i thought it was baptism which determines that you are catholic for the purposes of school acceptance?

Census doesn't come into it for schools, bth no idea what was put down for that. But on the forms for the school I believe they're down as catholic, no point missing a place for principles.

I let the misses fill in the census

Dades

Obviously the census was daft, but in reality they aren't really pretending to be catholics - they really just want to get their kid into a particular school.

The problem is they aren't as emotionally 'invested' in the issue with Irish schools as many would be here, and just see it as a harmless ceremony to go through.

Would things have been different had you had a conversation with them prior to the census/baptism I wonder?

eth0_

I'm an atheist myself but I think it is morally wrong to baptise your child purely so they can attend a catholic school. Children should only be allowed to attend catholic schools if they can demonstrate that they are at the very least semi-regular church-goers.

Delirium

eth0_ wrote: »

I'm an atheist myself but I think it is morally wrong to baptise your child purely so they can attend a catholic school. Children should only be allowed to attend catholic schools if they can demonstrate that they are at the very least semi-regular church-goers.

there'll be a lot of empty schools if that were the case :P

Turtwig

Well this is probably going to be the coldest post I'll ever make.


If I have kids I won't be baptising them (odds are I won't be in Ireland anyway). Once my parents die I'll wont pretend to be Catholic anymore.
(Assuming they die first of course.)

In fact, I'd say once the older generation is gone a lot of people will be far more comfortable with acknowledging their nonbelief.

magicbastarder

Malty_T wrote: »

Once my parents die I'll wont pretend to be Catholic anymore.

mind me asking what age you are and what age they are?

Turtwig

magicbastarder wrote: »

mind me asking what age you are and what age they are?

Not directly after making that post. I'm pretty sure I've given my age here elsewhere on boards, but you're gonna have to wait a while before I divulge that info after making that post. Sorry.

magicbastarder

np - i hope no offence was taken.

Turtwig

magicbastarder wrote: »

np - i hope no offence was taken.

None whatsover. If you'd asked that any other time I'd have answered you.
Just bad timing

colmos

The driving instructor I had a while back was in a similar situation. He's athiest and so is his wife, and he didn't want to baptise his children.

He ended up baptising them though due to constant harrassment from a priest and his mother. He was genuinely fearing the priest would try and turn the community against him. He felt he had no other choice to fit in... isn't it crazy thats what he felt what he had to do?

gbee

colmos wrote: »

... isn't it crazy thats what he felt what he had to do?

No, I bent to similar pressure, It's one of my personal regrets that I did not stand up for my own convictions.

But amusingly, two years ago my son who is not religious and is not even staying in this country brings his Muslim wife and my grandson back home for a Catholic Baptism.

Turtwig

gbee wrote: »

No, I bent to similar pressure, It's one of my personal regrets that I did not stand up for my own convictions.

But amusingly, two years ago my son who is not religious and is not even staying in this country brings his Muslim wife and my grandson back home for a Catholic Baptism.

Wtf?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Galvasean wrote: »

But if people don't declare themselves (truthfully) as not being Catholic there will be no real need (in the eyes of the government) to change the school situation. It's a weird chicken and the egg scenario.
Everybody wants the system to change, but it sems hardly anyone is willing to take any steps to bring about change.

That's true, and a good example of people putting their genes before their group -

People may want a secular school system for all, but it is ultimately far more important to them that their offspring receive the best possible education, regardless of the wider consequences for society.

Dades

colmos wrote: »

The driving instructor I had a while back was in a similar situation. He's athiest and so is his wife, and he didn't want to baptise his children.

When there are two people at play in the decision with contrasting beliefs, I feel there is no right or wrong course of action.
Wait until you're married - baptism might not seem the worse option.

gbee wrote: »

But amusingly, two years ago my son who is not religious and is not even staying in this country brings his Muslim wife and my grandson back home for a Catholic Baptism.

To be fair, if my son married a Muslim lady I'd probably breathe a sigh of relief if their kids were baptised. Better the devil you know, etc.

DarylH

Two things to blow your thread out of the water, 1.Catholic Schools Accept everyone regardless on Religion. 2.Census Forms are not Private

Turtwig

DarylH wrote: »

Two things to blow your thread out of the water, 1.Catholic Schools Accept everyone regardless on Religion. 2.Census Forms are not Private

E-v-e-r-y-o-n-e?

Red Hand

gbee wrote: »

.

But amusingly, two years ago my son who is not religious and is not even staying in this country brings his Muslim wife and my grandson back home for a Catholic Baptism.

How does that work? I thought Muslim women cannot marry those of a different religion/atheism?

gbee

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

How does that work? I thought Muslim women cannot marry those of a different religion/atheism?

Her words to me on this question was "in our group it's only the boys that are asked to marry other Muslims, the girls are freer"

Solair

When I was growing up in Dublin in the 1980s and 90s friends of mine were being brought up non religiously and it was really amazing how much of a big deal it was.

Neighbors were making a big deal about it. They implied their parents were devil worshipers and one elderly busybody kidnapped them one afternoon to have them emergency baptised at a near by convent!

My other half was brought up Church of Ireland and when she was growing up, also in a large urban area children were told not to play with her or go to their house because she was Protestant.

I know things are a lot better know, but people in Ireland are still hugely nervous of stepping outside the fold. There was immense peer pressure, strange notions and idiocy off all sorts in the very recent past.

It's not surprising that many non religious people are still in the closet. Its only very recently becoming a more liberal and open society.

eth0_

gbee wrote: »

Her words to me on this question was "in our group it's only the boys that are asked to marry other Muslims, the girls are freer"

In Islam women must follow the faith of their husband, which is why it's so incredibly rare for observant muslim women to marry non-muslims, and also why very few of those sorts of marriages last any length of time.

gbee

eth0_ wrote: »

In Islam women must follow the faith of their husband,

And they are usually given a husband too.

colmos

Solair wrote: »

one elderly busybody kidnapped them one afternoon to have them emergency baptised at a near by convent!

WTF?! How did their parents react? :eek:

Dades

DarylH wrote: »

Two things to blow your thread out of the water, 1.Catholic Schools Accept everyone regardless on Religion. 2.Census Forms are not Private

One thing blows you post out of the water. Point 1. has been shown to be wrong many times to be wrong.

DarylH

Dades wrote: »

One thing blows you post out of the water. Point 1. has been shown to be wrong many times to be wrong.

Maybe, although I am positive that the majority accept everyone. I went to a catholic school and I am a Atheist.

gbee

Dades wrote: »

One thing blows you post out of the water. Point 1. has been shown to be wrong many times to be wrong.

It's not wrong. Basically faith schools prioritize the faith in that particular school. IF there are places not filled, then non faith children may attend.

But, within that, one cannot account for any particular individual in a place of authority.

Solair

colmos wrote: »

WTF?! How did their parents react? :eek:

They didn't react very well. Basically, she was a "well-meaning" busybody who lived nextdoor to them.

Very odd thing to have done! But that was 1992!

DarylH

gbee wrote: »

It's not wrong. Basically faith schools prioritize the faith in that particular school. IF there are places not filled, then non faith children may attend.

But, within that, one cannot account for any particular individual in a place of authority.

Oh, **** I forgot about that.

magicbastarder

DarylH wrote: »

Two things to blow your thread out of the water, 1.Catholic Schools Accept everyone regardless on Religion. 2.Census Forms are not Private

1. wrong.
2. wrong.

ShooterSF

Solair wrote: »

They didn't react very well. Basically, she was a "well-meaning" busybody who lived nextdoor to them.

Very odd thing to have done! But that was 1992!

What?! I thought by how you were talking you were on about 1962.

Dades

DarylH wrote: »

Maybe, although I am positive that the majority accept everyone. I went to a catholic school and I am a Atheist.

You weren't baptised? Lucky you. My cousin was expressly told her kid wasn't getting into her local school because she wasn't. Is that kind of discrimination okay because it doesn't happen every day in every school?

Solair

Dades wrote: »

You weren't baptised? Lucky you. My cousin was expressly told her kid wasn't getting into her local school because she wasn't. Is that kind of discrimination okay because it doesn't happen every day in every school?

As I see it, the state has outsourced the rather limited role of managing educational establishment buildings and ethos to private institutions. It provides them with state-employed teachers, funding for facilities and upkeep. So, I really do not see why any such institution should be able to discriminate against anyone who is resident in this state and needs education.

Could you imagine the uproar if Trinity started to say that they'd award an extra 100 CAO points to protestants or that UCD started doing the same for Catholics ?

There'd be protests on the streets! Yet, if a primary school does it, ah sure it's grand!

robindch

Dades wrote: »

My cousin was expressly told her kid wasn't getting into her local school because she wasn't. Is that kind of discrimination okay because it doesn't happen every day in every school?

...waits for philologos to say that there should be more schools...

philologos

robindch wrote: »

...waits for philologos to say that there should be more schools...

I think that's obvious really. We can only hope that Ruairí Quinn will do a good job in the coming months.

fryup

If you ask me..I think that most irish catholics are closet atheists anyway....

They only do the catholic thing out of clanish/nationlistic reasons.

When i was growing up you'd see a whole pile of lads standing outside the chapel on a sunday even though there was room for them inside.......i mean why go in the first place if you have no intention to practice

And then after mass it would be straight down to the pub effin & blindin:rolleyes:

I just wish the irish would stop the pretence and be a bit more honest on how they truly feel about religion.

philologos

I think this importance of religion poll that Gallup did in 2009 could be more accurate. The advantage of it is that it doesn't ask if one is a believer in X, but it simply asks how important do people find religion.

Galvasean

fryup wrote: »

They only do the catholic thing out of clanish/nationlistic reasons.

Reminds me of my secondary school days (mid-late 90s). There was a guy in one of my classes who was a Protestant. Nice lad. Not the slobbering stone throwing monster we were expecting. Bit of an eye opener for many.

Mistress 69

eth0_ wrote: »

Children should only be allowed to attend catholic schools if they can demonstrate that they are at the very least semi-regular church-goers.

Sounds very reminiscent of a recent poster and thankfully it is not the case !

philstar

Solair wrote: »

When I was growing up in Dublin in the 1980s and 90s friends of mine were being brought up non religiously and it was really amazing how much of a big deal it was.

Neighbors were making a big deal about it. They implied their parents were devil worshipers and one elderly busybody kidnapped them one afternoon to have them emergency baptised at a near by convent!

well if that happened to one of my kids i would hit the roof big time:mad:

Solair wrote: »

My other half was brought up Church of Ireland and when she was growing up, also in a large urban area children were told not to play with her or go to their house because she was Protestant.

oh you better believe it.. as a proddy myself growing up in the republic of the 1980s with the back drop of the troubles in the north, they were times i felt like a leper with the dirty looks and snide remarks people would make towards you.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

Reminds me of my secondary school days (mid-late 90s). There was a guy in one of my classes who was a Protestant. Nice lad. Not the slobbering stone throwing monster we were expecting. Bit of an eye opener for many.

Reminds me of Kerry in the 70's. Lots of catholics and a few beleaguered prods and most of them was English, or could have been in the fading light. Was enormously surprised to learn, around ten years in, that my grandad was born a prod and only converted so that my grandma would marry him.

Was even more surprised to learn around age 20 that our neighbours referred to us occasionally as "them English bastards", despite the family's Englishness having become "Irishness" mid-17th century.

Memories in Kerry at the time were frequently longer than they were deep.

philologos

Mickeroo: You're just like the Catholic mammy except the opposite :pac:

Galvasean

Nothing to see here