Gilmore the hypocrit

the groutch

Gilmore has come out saying everyone in the private sector has to share the burden.

THE GOVERNMENT wants to rein in high pay levels in all sectors of the economy, Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has signalled.
In an address to the biennial delegate conference of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in Killarney yesterday, Mr Gilmore said pay moderation was not something that applied only to people on low and moderate incomes.
He also said that while the joint labour committee system for determining pay and conditions for thousands of workers would be reformed under Government plans, it would not be abolished as sought by some employer groups.
Mr Gilmore said the Cabinet would decide on the reforms to the wage-setting mechanisms shortly and that people should not jump to conclusions at this point as to what the changes would entail.
It was also important, he said, that the Government engage in dialogue with unions and employers “on what it will take to achieve lasting economic recovery”.
“The Government will talk with unions and employers and we will work to have an understanding with both that will facilitate recovery.”
He said this process of engagement would, of necessity, include dialogue on the future conduct of industrial relations and on the issue of collective bargaining rights for unions in line with the commitment in the programme for government.
However, Mr Gilmore told reporters later that this engagement would not be social partnership in the traditional sense as it applied in Ireland up until its collapse at the end of 2009.
He said social partnership as we knew it “was a formula that operated at a particular time in our history”.
The Tánaiste said that while there had been a moderation of wage costs in the public and private sectors over the last three years this had been less evident “in the very high pay levels that prevailed during the boom, creating an ever-widening gap between those in the sheltered sectors of the economy, the banks, the professions and those in the lowest-paid, most vulnerable parts of the economy”.
He said the Government had taken a lead on the issue of senior level pay in the public service and in the semi-State sector and it would now be looking for the private and sheltered sectors to play their part also.
“The programme agreed with the troika [says] that there will be reforms in sheltered areas of the economy and in some of the professions and we will be proceeding with those reforms.
“The exact shape of those reforms and the shape of the changes in relation to payments has not yet been determined,” he said.
“But the Government is determined that everyone in society, no matter what areas, no matter what profession, they will have to make their contribution and shoulder the burden that has to be shouldered.
“Pay moderation is not something that applies just to people on low and moderate incomes,” he added.

but yet again the public sector pay can't be touched, because Gilmore is in the pocket of the Public Sector unions, and won't touch the CPA, even though the agreement allows for it's abolition. Taken from the agreement itself;

The implementation of this Agreement is subject to no currently unforeseen budgetary de-terioration

If having to go to the IMF with cap in hand to get a bailout to save the country from bankrupty isnt budgetary deterioration, I son't know what the **** is.
Eamonn, be a man and stand up to the PS unions, and do not only what is right for this country, but what the electorate that voted you and your coleagues want.

sensibleken

sorry, but whats hypocritical here?

Dannyboy83

Gilbore waffling out his hole about 'reform' again, yet has never once actually specified what reforms he'll put through.

Reminds me of the women who are going on a diet every Monday and are eating bars of choclate by 5pm.

Shape up or ship out.

sensibleken

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Gilbore waffling out his hole about 'reform' again, yet has never once actually specified what reforms he'll put through.

Reminds me of the women who are going on a diet every Monday and are eating bars of choclate by 5pm.

Shape up or ship out.

'He' wont. that is generally left up to the ministers in charge of their own areas to announce the reforms

bleg

As a member of one of the "sheltered" professions Gilmore talks about (pharmacist) what he's saying comes across as an absolute joke. Cuts in pharmacy have been quite severe, pay has been slashed, hundreds of recent grads have emigrated. They have also put continuity of supply of medicines for patients in danger. The first cut the new Minister for Health implements was on pharmacists again, not on his buddies the GPs or consultants. Ireland has the most open pharmacy market in the EU yet they refer to it as a "sheltered profession" in the memorandum of understanding.

anymore

Gilmore is part of the public sector and so is his wife. Alarge part of the PS voted labour this election. Labour is efffectively the political wing of the Public sector now. Though at the same time and bizarrely some might say, Gilmpre is also protecting the Directors of AIB etc.

careca11

Gilmore , like the rest of the political parasites , haven't the balls to reform anything
only interested in lining their pockets and keeping their friends happy

Godge

bleg wrote: »

As a member of one of the "sheltered" professions Gilmore talks about (pharmacist) what he's saying comes across as an absolute joke. Cuts in pharmacy have been quite severe, pay has been slashed, hundreds of recent grads have emigrated. They have also put continuity of supply of medicines for patients in danger. The first cut the new Minister for Health implements was on pharmacists again, not on his buddies the GPs or consultants. Ireland has the most open pharmacy market in the EU yet they refer to it as a "sheltered profession" in the memorandum of understanding.

I don't know any poor pharmacists.

I have always wondered why the state pays pharmacists to dispense medicine. Shouldn't pharmacists be queueing up to pay the State to direct the business their way so that they can get customers into their shops to buy other goods.

Cookie_Monster

bleg wrote: »

As a member of one of the "sheltered" professions Gilmore talks about (pharmacist) what he's saying comes across as an absolute joke. Cuts in pharmacy have been quite severe, pay has been slashed, hundreds of recent grads have emigrated. They have also put continuity of supply of medicines for patients in danger. The first cut the new Minister for Health implements was on pharmacists again, not on his buddies the GPs or consultants. Ireland has the most open pharmacy market in the EU yet they refer to it as a "sheltered profession" in the memorandum of understanding.

course it's sheltered, where are all the generic medications that would exist in an open market?

Blocked by the pharmacies and GPs so they can make a bigger margin on the brand stuff...

sollar

the groutch wrote: »

but yet again the public sector pay can't be touched,

The public sector have already been cut.

bleg

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

course it's sheltered, where are all the generic medications that would exist in an open market?

Blocked by the pharmacies and GPs so they can make a bigger margin on the brand stuff...

Nope, pharmacists have been calling out for generic substitution for years. The prices of meds are set by the Dept of Health, in conjunction with drug companies. This actually led to a recent situation where branded drugs were cheaper than their generic equivalent.

kev9100

Seriously, people really need to get over themselves. The PS has alredy faced drastic cuts and will likely face more. What is wrong with saying that the private sector, which had it very, very good in the good times, should also face cuts?

Imho, the last great lie by the FF government that the people believed was that the PS is the reason for all of our financial ills.

Permabear

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sollar

Permabear wrote: »

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I wonder what role the JLC's played in the public sector wage demands.

I copied this from another thread:

'JLC's covered many industries, not just low paid sectors either, they applied to electricians, plumbers, builders etc and during the boom JLCs were one of the major factors that led directly to the spiraling cost of house building and thus housing in general. You had the whole 'block layers in Beemers' phenomena that saw manual laborers on a building site earning senior IT consultant wages.
Not only was the cost of your house driven up but many young people were disincentivized to continue with higher education, I mean, why spend years to get an IT degree when you could go on the buildings at 16 and earn more money then an accountant or a banker?
People can talk about unsustainable pay rates in the public sector, but the JLCs led to some pretty unsustainable pay rates in the private sector too, and then sought (a bit like upward only rent reviews) to sustain them during the crash also. Anybody that called a plumber or an electrician to replace a fuse board or fix a leaky tap during the boom knows exactly what I’m talking about.
'

Permabear

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anymore

sollar wrote: »

I wonder what role the JLC's played in the public sector wage demands.

I copied this from another thread:

'JLC's covered many industries, not just low paid sectors either, they applied to electricians, plumbers, builders etc and during the boom JLCs were one of the major factors that led directly to the spiraling cost of house building and thus housing in general. You had the whole 'block layers in Beemers' phenomena that saw manual laborers on a building site earning senior IT consultant wages.
Not only was the cost of your house driven up but many young people were disincentivized to continue with higher education, I mean, why spend years to get an IT degree when you could go on the buildings at 16 and earn more money then an accountant or a banker?
People can talk about unsustainable pay rates in the public sector, but the JLCs led to some pretty unsustainable pay rates in the private sector too, and then sought (a bit like upward only rent reviews) to sustain them during the crash also. Anybody that called a plumber or an electrician to replace a fuse board or fix a leaky tap during the boom knows exactly what I’m talking about.
'

" ... that saw manual laborers on a building site earning senior IT consultant wages .."
That is one of the more stupid asinine comments I have seen for may a long day - I assume it came from someone in the PS sector.
Manual labourers earned at most circa € 14 an hour. Mainly they were working on relatively short term/medium building sites and when the project finished they had to get on thier bikes. To put this in perspective, teachers were being paid circa an hour for thier leisurely stroll around the school yard at lunch time.

sensibleken

anymore wrote: »

" ... that saw manual laborers on a building site earning senior IT consultant wages .."
That is one of the more stupid asinine comments I have seen for may a long day - I assume it came from someone in the PS sector.
Manual labourers earned at most circa € 14 an hour. Mainly they were working on relatively short term/medium building sites and when the project finished they had to get on thier bikes. To put this in perspective, teachers were being paid circa an hour for thier leisurely stroll around the school yard at lunch time.

Is there any chance we can move this debate on from "so-and-so got paid more than so-and-so during the boom". It does precisely feck all to rectify the situation.

Drumpot

kev9100 wrote: »

Seriously, people really need to get over themselves. The PS has alredy faced drastic cuts and will likely face more. What is wrong with saying that the private sector, which had it very, very good in the good times, should also face cuts?

Imho, the last great lie by the FF government that the people believed was that the PS is the reason for all of our financial ills.

Please define the private sector that had it very good in the good times ? You do realise that there are many differant sections of the private sector and that when the average wage in an industry is 32,000, then its most likely that the majority of workers are earning below that figure!

I have worked in the private sector for over 10 years, have a business degree, professional qualifications (QFA) and have never earned more then 30k a year. I know for a fact that there were jobs in the Public service back in 2002 that had hundreds applying for only a handful of positions (as I was one of them!).

People working in supermarkets, bank tellors, administration jobs, catering, clothes stores, cafes etc represent a majority of people in the private sector and they never earn these vast fortunes that the celtic tiger supposedly graced them with.

Bank execs and even builders do not represent most of the private sector no matter how much certain vested groups want it to, so they can whine about how difficult they have had it!

In truth, most of the people who complain about how hard they have it are actually financially stable and just unable and unwilling to budget. They have gotten it into their heads that they are ENTITLED to something and that under no circumstances should they have to pay for what they perceive to be somebody elses problem!

kev9100

Permabear wrote: »

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I have heard this time and time again : it was spending, especially PS spending, that caused the problems. However, no-one ever wants to talk about this: we cut taxes far too much. If we had had a reasonable tax structure, including a property tax and a tax on wealth, we would be in a much better situation.

Drumpot

kev9100 wrote: »

I have heard this time and time again : it was spending, especially PS spending, that caused the problems. However, no-one ever wants to talk about this: we cut taxes far too much. If we had had a reasonable tax structure, including a property tax and a tax on wealth, we would be in a much better situation.

You keep hearing it and you keep ignoring it.

You do know that the more you tax everybody the less money thats spent in the economy ? That means that stores and private companies will get less business , which in turn means job losses and company closures ?

Forgetting the discussions on whether or not our public service overall is overpaid (that is definitely debatable), the government cant make all its fiscal adjustments to suit the public service which is exactly what happened during social partnership and one of the biggest reasons why this country is struggling to balance the books.

Government expenditure is made up mainly of Social Welfare and Public service pay. Property taxes subsidised pay increases, why should taxpayers maintain these increases that were , to quote the public service union "being part of the celtic tiger) ? Does it not seem fair that public service pay should be shaved back to pre property bubble tax generating days to reflect the change in our fortunes ? This concept is conveniently ignored when discussing what should be done in the Public sector.

When public service unions want to join everybody else in the real financially crippled Ireland 2011, we will see more solidarity. It never ceases to amaze me how so many people here act as though they are thinking of what is fair and best for Ireland, when all they are interested in is making others pay pain that might actually come their way!

anymore

kev9100 wrote: »

I have heard this time and time again : it was spending, especially PS spending, that caused the problems. However, no-one ever wants to talk about this: we cut taxes far too much. If we had had a reasonable tax structure, including a property tax and a tax on wealth, we would be in a much better situation.

In other words if we squeezed the private sector even more, we would be able to keep the PS in the manner in which they had become accustomed.

anymore

sensibleken wrote: »

Is there any chance we can move this debate on from "so-and-so got paid more than so-and-so during the boom". It does precisely feck all to rectify the situation.

Having thought about this, the answe is no, it would be a mistake to allow this type of absurdity to go unremarked particularily now that former techer Enda Kenny and his pseudo socialist buddy, Gilmore are determined to keep protecting the PS whilst so many are on the scrap heap. This patently absurd nonsense about building workers was one of the prime motivators for the first Benchmarking rip off. Lets repeat again the original basis for granting these totally unjustified pay rises were never published. This was particualrily sized upon by the teaching unions.

Permabear

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Nodin

Permabear wrote: »

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...and nothing to do with the lack of regulation on that collapsed banking industry?

Son Of A Vidic

As a former public sector employee (HSE) I am well aware of the waste that goes on in the public service, especially the HSE. I wish I didn't to be honest, because it just really angers me. I took a very large pay cut when I joined the private sector, but I could no longer work in an environment of daily managerial incompetence and waste.

At least now I have my sanity, but Christ do I miss the perks. The public sector needs a very big cull of staff, there are too many non-essential staff bloating it's ranks. Too many needless clip board carriers and managers. I know what my taxes pay for and it disgusts me.

Why do these wasters in the public service get their golden hand shakes and bonuses, when they are merely doing the job they were employed to do? If I don't produce in my current job then I don't get a bonus. In fact my company have been on a pay freeze for the last two years. As long as we have spineless governments, then we shall continue to fund this back hole.

Drumpot

Nodin wrote: »

...and nothing to do with the lack of regulation on that collapsed banking industry?

You see this is where I have to laugh . . Where did they say that the PUBLIC SERVICE BODY, that was supposedly regulating the banks, werent involved in creating the disaster ? Hmm ?

Did they say that or are you just trying to avoid having to actually respond to their criticism of the public service that pushed to be a benefactor of the bubble and is fighting so hard now to be protected from the depression ?

Permabear

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kev9100

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm sorry, but that is complete right-wing nonsense. Teaching is one of the most difficult and mentally exhausting jobs possible. Not only do you have to put up with up with poor facilities, and in some cases barely any facilities, you also have to put up with the nonsensical prejudices of people like you. Oh, and if you think teaching is such a profitable and cushy career why don't you do it? Because for some reason, people who want to have a go at teachers and nurses have no idea what is exactly involved in the job.

Nodin

Permabear wrote: »

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....regardless of the fact they would have dragged the rest of us down with them.

Drumpot

kev9100 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that is complete right-wing nonsense. Teaching is one of the most difficult and mentally exhausting jobs possible. Not only do you have to put up with up with poor facilities, and in some cases barely any facilities, you also have to put up with the nonsensical prejudices of people like you. Oh, and if you think teaching is such a profitable and cushy career why don't you do it? Because for some reason, people who want to have a go at teachers and nurses have no idea what is exactly involved in the job.

Why does every part of the public service love to latch itself onto the nurses!!! :rolleyes:

Im not willing to go into whther or not teaching is exhausting or difficult as I have never been a teacher.

However, I believe most jobs that pay a decent wage are hard working and tough. This is another part of the public service defence that always amuses me. They talk about hard working in their jobs as if its a bonus that taxpayers get for paying them and as if everybody else in the private sector dont work hard or get tired!

Permabear

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Permabear

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Drumpot

Permabear wrote: »

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Dont think you will get a reply to that one . . Nice smoking gun ! !

Cue hardcore public service reply "But its all the private sectors fault etc etc etc etc etc etc" . . .

Permabear

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sollar

Permabear wrote: »

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You missed out on the government collecting the wrong taxes. Had we been taxed properly we would not have had the collapse in revenues that we had. They relied on consumption taxes and taxes dependent on the property boom.

The Volt

Permabear wrote: »

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Are the captains of industry, senior bank managers, investment managers, insurance actuaries etc etc etc all not grossly overpaid too? It seems that they're making sure that they can hang on to their over-inflated pay scales by cutting the pay rates of the very lowest paid in society.

It might also have escaped your attention that the pay-cuts and levies imposed on public and civil servants at the lower end of the scale completely outweighs any moneys they would have received through public service bench-marking.

nesf

kev9100 wrote: »

Teaching is one of the most difficult and mentally exhausting jobs possible.

Eh, what?

anymore

nesf wrote: »

Eh, what?

You have to remember most teachers go from secondary school to teacher training college and back to school without having any real experience of how the real world works !

Jaysoose

Voltwad wrote: »

Are the captains of industry, senior bank managers, investment managers, insurance actuaries etc etc etc all not grossly overpaid too? It seems that they're making sure that they can hang on to their over-inflated pay scales by cutting the pay rates of the very lowest paid in society.

It might also have escaped your attention that the pay-cuts and levies imposed on public and civil servants at the lower end of the scale completely outweighs any moneys they would have received through public service bench-marking.

The increments that are still being paid to a large portion of so-called lower paid public and civil servants will have softened the blow somewhat so you can spare us the poor mouth on their behalf.

CommuterIE

Permabear wrote: »

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I agree one hundred percent, but it won't be the government telling the people now... they seem to be bent on driving the country into the ground... so much so that it will be the IMF & EU calling the shots... at that stage the government can sit back and say... well it's not us that are doing this, its the IMF etc! Enda Kennys announcement of no tax increases and no social welfare cuts it downright stupidity

99nsr125

anymore wrote: »

Having thought about this, the answe is no, it would be a mistake to allow this type of absurdity to go unremarked particularily now that former techer Enda Kenny and his pseudo socialist buddy, Gilmore are determined to keep protecting the PS whilst so many are on the scrap heap.

I thought the program for government called for at least a 25,000 reduction
in public service numbers and privatisation of state assets. That's hardly protecting them.

He's right though sheltered sectors of the economy need to be less sheltered.

Examples of the past
Aer Lingus / Ryan Air
Eircom and the broadband debacle.

Doctors are still barred from advertising and also very restricted
in the way a new GP can take on medical card services.

Alcohol licenses are still restricted.

The list goes on and we have no money to overlook these problems
anymore.

Public or Private it doesn't matter, if it's holding us back it's gotta be
fixed.

The Volt

Jaysoose wrote: »

The increments that are still being paid to a large portion of so-called lower paid public and civil servants will have softened the blow somewhat so you can spare us the poor mouth on their behalf.

That's nonsense. Increments are about people making their way up the maximum pay in a job which in many cases is just over the minimum wage, say 25k. It might take years for someone to even reach that.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

That's nonsense. Increments are about people making their way up the maximum pay in a job which in many cases is just over the minimum wage, say 25k. It might take years for someone to even reach that.

What a laugh ! € 25 k is not 'just over the minimum wage '
I doubt if there is a single ptivate sector minimum wage worker who doesnt have to work harder than PS workers earning 20 ro 25 K!
And of course lower paid PD workers alsl have perk of annual paid 'sick holidays'.

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

What a laugh ! € 25 k is not 'just over the minimum wage '
I doubt if there is a single ptivate sector minimum wage worker who doesnt have to work harder than PS workers earning 20 ro 25 K!
And of course lower paid PD workers alsl have perk of annual paid 'sick holidays'.

I always find this attitude a bit rich given the people in the private sector who looked down on those in the public sector during the boom years while some were earning ridiculous money.

Even more so, it's saddening to see people like yourself really buy into the private versus public thing when the harsh reality of the situation is there are hundreds of thousands of people in all areas of employment struggling to keep their heads above water.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

I always find this attitude a bit rich given the people in the private sector who looked down on those in the public sector during the boom years while some were earning ridiculous money.

Even more so, it's saddening to see people like yourself really buy into the private versus public thing when the harsh reality of the situation is there are hundreds of thousands of people in all areas of employment struggling to keep their heads above water.

Believe me I am one of the people struggling to keep my head above water and it is this which makes all the more aware of the inequity of the PS system in Ireland. The division of irish society into the PS and the private sctor is very real and it is the private sector which is expected to bear the bulk of the pain whilst still subsidsing the over paid and quite often ineffective PS. It is regretable to lump all PS workers as one, but it is hard to break it down into categories,.

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

Believe me I am one of the people struggling to keep my head above water and it is this which makes all the more aware of the inequity of the PS system in Ireland. The division of irish society into the PS and the private sctor is very real and it is the private sector which is expected to bear the bulk of the pain whilst still subsidsing the over paid and quite often ineffective PS. It is regretable to lump all PS workers as one, but it is hard to break it down into categories,.

Frankly, I find it lazy when people don't. There's a myriad of skills and commitment required in many parts of the public sector. While many private sector workers stayed in bed because of the bad snow earlier on this year, it was public sector workers (whether they be firemen, policemen, the army, postmen, nurses, doctors, teachers or busmen) who kept the country going.

You never know what you've got until it's gone, be careful what you wish for. The mark of any civilized society is the services that are made available to its citizens. Ireland spends a smaller proportion of its wealth on the public sector than almost all of its European partners. Obviously we should demand and expect full value for money and for the investment that we put into our public sector but in blaming them for all our woes, we let the real culprits off the hook and whether we like it or not, the only public sector workers who bear any responsibility for our current economic plight were the politicians who were either asleep or compliant with their fellow travellers from the private sector (ie the bankers, builders, developers, speculators etc etc etc) who now lecture us about the importance of the private sector. It seems to me, we're following a policy of nationalizing debt and privatizing profit.

We've forgotten about building a society in our rush to preserve an economy. There was a time when an economy was being built to serve a society and it's very clear that those roles have been reversed.

Cookie_Monster

Voltwad wrote: »

While many private sector workers stayed in bed because of the bad snow earlier on this year, it was public sector workers (whether they be firemen, policemen, the army, postmen, nurses, doctors, teachers or busmen) who kept the country going.

and it was the total incompetence of many of those same workers that meant roads and trains were not running or open due to weather most other countries could deal with with ease...

The Volt

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and it was the total incompetence of many of those same workers that meant roads and trains were not running or open due to weather most other countries could deal with with ease...

The public sector workers kept this country going despite a total lack of preparation by our political masters.

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

Frankly, I find it lazy when people don't. There's a myriad of skills and commitment required in many parts of the public sector. While many private sector workers stayed in bed because of the bad snow earlier on this year, it was public sector workers (whether they be firemen, policemen, the army, postmen, nurses, doctors, teachers or busmen) who kept the country going.

You never know what you've got until it's gone, be careful what you wish for. The mark of any civilized society is the services that are made available to its citizens. Ireland spends a smaller proportion of its wealth on the public sector than almost all of its European partners. Obviously we should demand and expect full value for money and for the investment that we put into our public sector but in blaming them for all our woes, we let the real culprits off the hook and whether we like it or not, the only public sector workers who bear any responsibility for our current economic plight were the politicians who were either asleep or compliant with their fellow travellers from the private sector (ie the bankers, builders, developers, speculators etc etc etc) who now lecture us about the importance of the private sector. It seems to me, we're following a policy of nationalizing debt and privatizing profit.

We've forgotten about building a society in our rush to preserve an economy. There was a time when an economy was being built to serve a society and it's very clear that those roles have been reversed.

Teachers kept the country going ????? It was teachers in particular who made the news by thier eagerness to stay at hoome or hwo having gone to school rushed to close the schools at the first flurries of snow !!!!!!

The Volt

anymore wrote: »

Teachers kept the country going ????? It was teachers in particular who made the news by thier eagerness to stay at hoome or hwo having gone to school rushed to close the schools at the first flurries of snow !!!!!!

Kudos for picking one one group of many that I named there. Really scraping the barrel now you lot. Nothing to say about the point I made of us spending less on our public sector than most of Europe?

anymore

Voltwad wrote: »

Kudos for picking one one group of many that I named there. Really scraping the barrel now you lot. Nothing to say about the point I made of us spending less on our public sector than most of Europe?

Frankly if we spent more, most of the money would be money down the drain.