Why should I stay in the catholic church

Cathal O

As the title suggests,
I am a late teen who would like to think of themselves as quite religious.
This is in the sense that I believe in the teachings of the Catholic church.
HOWEVER i am at odds with the actions of the catholic church, they seems to be the perfect example of not practising what they preach.

1. Last sundays sermon was the last straw, the parish priest lectured after the gospel, not on how to save ourselves, or how to be a better person on catholic, but how we should be giving more in our collection to the clergy every sunday.
This hit home for me the basic problem I have with them. How much , valued in assets do the catholic church have that are luxuries? Now very well , the church needs lets say a centre (the vatican), i can understand, and also it needs housing for the clergy , this i can also understand, aswell as the basic commodities of these afore mentioned needs. (furnishings / statues etc)

HOWEVER
how can a priest lecture on how we as people, living in a deprived area with little or no local economy, with unemployment rising (which all this the priest has mentioned in previous sermons) should be giving AS MINIMUM of X amount Euro per week.

How many assets do the church own purely out of their own selfishness and greed. Many masterpieces of art and sculpture are owned by the church who blatantly show these off in a nonchalant fashion which are collectivly worth billions of euro.

Aswell as this, with all due respect, aside from the many many many abuse cases (which i will not go into as they speak for themselves and deserve a rant of their own), how can a church decide to be so blatently sexist in the treatment of women, for example in the vatican, men can walk bare naked if they wish (possible overreaction but lets say shirtless and shorts) while women have to "cover their shoulders" to be allowed into certain areas of the city. Not to mention how they are not allowed to Become fully fledged members of the clergy

The whole ceremonial aspect of the church really sickens me, the kissing of rings etc, while the highest of the clergy live in utmost luxury , they themselves are still preaching how we should give more to them...not even the poor

Sorry for the rant, and im sure there is more frustrating things i am livid at the catholic church for, but as the question/ title says:
why should I stay with the catholic church if i will continue to hold my beliefs and act in the most christian manner i can in my daily life

AhSureTisGrand

Because you can't leave

ISAW

Cathal O wrote: »

how can a priest lecture on how we as people, living in a deprived area with little or no local economy, with unemployment rising (which all this the priest has mentioned in previous sermons) should be giving AS MINIMUM of X amount Euro per week.

How many assets do the church own purely out of their own selfishness and greed. Many masterpieces of art and sculpture are owned by the church who blatantly show these off in a nonchalant fashion which are collectivly worth billions of euro.

This really should be in a FAQ sticky as it comes up time and again and has been discussed before.

By the way RC collections are abut the same or higher than they were. the collection that is really down is the "parish dues". If you want to give money only to your parish then just put it in an envelope marked "parish dues" and it will go into the parish account and be used for your parish.

The first collection goes into a pot out of which the priests of the diocese are piad. It used to go to the priest of the parish but because some had mre money and some less the decision was made to put it into a common fund and all priests draw the same salary from that. the second collection goes into t fund to build new churches unless otherwise stated e.g. last Sunday it was for the Pope's charity. many churches don't allow church gate collections since the recession . the usual exception is Vincent De Paul. VdP were set up in Paris when atheists and anarchists were filling coffee shops and talking about the Revolution. The atheists are still yammering away and doing little. anything they set up soon crumbled. any atheistic state slaughtered people by the millions. Meanwhile VdP is the largest charity on the world helping poor people everywhere while the atheists drink coffee and spurn the faith of the poor.

Aswell as this, with all due respect, aside from the many many many abuse cases (which i will not go into as they speak for themselves and deserve a rant of their own),

Again this is in a separate child abuse thread.

how can a church decide to be so blatently sexist in the treatment of women, for example in the vatican, men can walk bare naked if they wish (possible overreaction but lets say shirtless and shorts) while women have to "cover their shoulders" to be allowed into certain areas of the city.

Cite? In fact Vatican citizenship is probably 100 per cent male. I would assume maybe the opposite applies in some convents.

You seem to be referring to the dress code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Vatican_City

[/quote]
A dress code is enforced for entry into St. Peter's Basilica. The code is based upon what is considered "modest" and "appropriate" dress for visiting a Catholic church, and tourists and visitors are reminded that, although St. Peter's is an architectural and artistic monument, it is first a place of worship and prayer. The dress code forbids:

hats for lay men inside the basilica
shorts/skirts above the knees
sleeveless shirts
shirts exposing the navel
shirts for women that expose cleavage
shirts which contain profanity
excessive jewellery

The use of mobile phones is also prohibited, as is smoking.
[/quote]

the same is usual in Irish court houses or workplaces for example.

Not to mention how they are not allowed to Become fully fledged members of the clergy

again a different issue which has also been dealt with and which you just DID mention.

The whole ceremonial aspect of the church really sickens me, the kissing of rings etc,

Temporal and spiritual offices are different. the Pope happens to be a Head of State. should the US President or Queen of England not be treated any differently to others?

while the highest of the clergy live in utmost luxury , they themselves are still preaching how we should give more to them...not even the poor

again dealt with in a prior thread. Popes usually don't live rock star lives in terms of what they use . they don't buy consumer goods and they have or leave little personal wealth when they die.

Sorry for the rant, and im sure there is more frustrating things i am livid at the catholic church for, but as the question/ title says:
why should I stay with the catholic church if i will continue to hold my beliefs and act in the most christian manner i can in my daily life

excellent question. Do you believe that the Church has a Magesterium and apostolic succession? Have you ever looked into that subject of polity? do you believe the Eucharist is a central mystery of the church? do you believe in confession?
If you don't then you are not a Catholic.

georgieporgy

"Will you also leave" said Jesus to his disciples ( after the feeding of the multitude, when he went on to say that in order to have eternal life they should eat him)
Peter's reply was...........?

Fanny Cradock

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Because you can't leave

Don't be silly. Contribute something useful to the thread or don't post.


@ Cathal O - Would you consider looking outside the RCC?

gigino

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Would you consider looking outside the RCC?

Lots of people do / have. I know of one Roman Catholic priest who used to work here in Ireland years ago, who left the clergy, and who now is attending ( + has attended for years ) weekly Church of England services in England, where he now lives. After years of being single in England + outside the rc church, he is getting married and says he is perfectly happy now.

antiskeptic

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Because you can't leave

But you can check out anytime you like..

who the fug

One priest with a bad sermon is not a reason to leave, suggest you ask yourself

a) do you believe in God
b) can you live your life as per the dictates of the church

gigino

who the fug wrote: »

One priest with a bad sermon is not a reason to leave,

In itself one priest with a bad sermon is not the reason to leave, but the OP did say " Last sundays sermon was the last straw". The last straw indicates there are other reasons / last Sundays priest just confirmed it all.

who the fug wrote: »

suggest you ask yourself
a) do you believe in God
b) can you live your life as per the dictates of the church

Lots of other people , hundreds of millions of other Christians, believe in God but do not live their lives as per the dictates of the RC church. Many more fine people live good lives and never harm anyone, even though they may not be Christian or even religous at all.

Cathal O

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

@ Cathal O - Would you consider looking outside the RCC?

This may clear up many peoples questions, yes I believe in the catholic teachings HOWEVER i dont regard myself of a fan of the churchs actions themselves.
I am a catholic and follow all essential followings, however do not like the actions of the church itself

ISAW wrote: »

Cite? In fact Vatican citizenship is probably 100 per cent male. I would assume maybe the opposite applies in some convents.

You seem to be referring to the dress code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Vatican_City

A dress code is enforced for entry into St. Peter's Basilica. The code is based upon what is considered "modest" and "appropriate" dress for visiting a Catholic church,



The use of mobile phones is also prohibited, as is smoking.
[/quote]


Why not enforce strict dress codes on both sexes and not one less for men than women, why not have one dress code for all. Instead of qualifying men to be allowed a less severe dress code than women. Courtrooms and workplaces have a general dress code, not one specifying women to "cover up" more than men.
Sexism is defined as treating persons differently only on the basis of their sex.Therefore i feel they are guilty of this[/QUOTE]

who the fug wrote: »

One priest with a bad sermon is not a reason to leave,

Again it was not the one sermon, it was my whole catholic church experience this being the tipping point

antiskeptic

Cathal O wrote: »

yes I believe in the catholic teachings HOWEVER i dont regard myself of a fan of the churchs actions themselves.

No women clergy is a core Catholic teaching. You say you follow these. Yet you also say..

Cathal O wrote:

Not to mention how they (women) are not allowed to Become fully fledged members of the clergy

Could you reconcile your difficulty in following a teaching you say you believe in?

who the fug

gigino wrote: »

In itself one priest with a bad sermon is not the reason to leave, but the OP did say " Last sundays sermon was the last straw". The last straw indicates there are other reasons / last Sundays priest just confirmed it all.


Lots of other people , hundreds of millions of other Christians, believe in God but do not live their lives as per the dictates of the RC church. Many more fine people live good lives and never harm anyone, even though they may not be Christian or even religous at all.

OP is asking about the RC church not other religions .

If you cannot answer yes to both then you have to leave the RC church

prinz

Here's a novel idea, if you have an issue with something the priest included in his sermon, phone him up and ask if you could meet him to discuss it.

Cathal O wrote: »

Why not enforce strict dress codes on both sexes and not one less for men than women, why not have one dress code for all.

The code for both sexes is to cover up their shoulders in certain parts of the Vatican as per your original complaint...

Cathal O wrote: »

Many masterpieces of art and sculpture are owned by the church who blatantly show these off in a nonchalant fashion which are collectivly worth billions of euro.

Which are held on trust for the people of the world and valued nominally.

Cathal O wrote: »

The whole ceremonial aspect of the church really sickens me, the kissing of rings etc.

The ceremonial aspect of the church when it comes to rituals and services will always be there. The automatic deference to the point of sycophancy to bishops (the tradition of ring kissing) etc is changing.

Manach

To add to Prinz's statement, the RCC is also one of the world's leading charities and, from my own personal experience, does contribute to the material well-being of poorer parishioners in a caring manner.

gigino

Manach wrote: »

the RCC is also one of the world's leading charities .

Most if not all of the Christian churches ( well certainly the Christian churches in the western world , which have hundreds of millions of members ) can also say they are charities / help the poor. Why does the Vatican never release any figures or statistics at all on how much money it gets in, and how much is spent on charity ? If you google Vatican wealth the average estimate of Vatican wealth seems to come in at about 90 billion. Why not sell some of the gold, shares etc + give that money to charity ?

georgieporgy

gigino wrote: »

Most if not all of the Christian churches ( well certainly the Christian churches in the western world , which have hundreds of millions of members ) can also say they are charities / help the poor. Why does the Vatican never release any figures or statistics at all on how much money it gets in, and how much is spent on charity ? If you google Vatican wealth the average estimate of Vatican wealth seems to come in at about 90 billion. Why not sell some of the gold, shares etc + give that money to charity ?

would it be ok if they then gave that money to catholic charities?

As for releasing figures, a detailed statement is released every year on vatican state expenses and income. Don't you read the catholic press?

philologos

OP: I'd encourage you to read the Bible and see what you think of it. Start with the New Testament and then work back through the Old. It is possible to read the Bible if you do it day by day in a year.

I would encourage you to seek God rather than putting your faith in an institution. Then you can look and see if you want to be a part of the RCC or a different church or whatever you deem is best.

gigino

philologos wrote: »

OP: I'd encourage you to read the Bible and see what you think of it. Start with the New Testament and then work back through the Old. It is possible to read the Bible if you do it day by day in a year.

I would encourage you to seek God rather than putting your faith in an institution. Then you can look and see if you want to be a part of the RCC or a different church or whatever you deem is best.

good advice, well put.

georgieporgy wrote: »

As for releasing figures, a detailed statement is released every year on vatican state expenses and income.

Any chance on a link to that information, if it shows worldwide Roman Catholic state finances Income, expenditure, etc ? Oh come on, if that info is readily available it must be on the web someplace....and I do not suppose it would ever consider releasing a list of its assets / total value? No , I thought not.;)

georgieporgy

gigino wrote: »

Any chance on a link to that information, if it shows worldwide Roman Catholic state finances Income, expenditure, etc ? Oh come on, if that info is readily available it must be on the web someplace....and I do not suppose it would ever consider releasing a list of its assets / total value? No , I thought not.;)

http://visnews-en.blogspot.com/2011/07/holy-see-financial-statements-for-2010.html

Onesimus

philologos wrote: »

OP: I'd encourage you to read the Bible and see what you think of it. Start with the New Testament and then work back through the Old. It is possible to read the Bible if you do it day by day in a year.

I would encourage you to seek God rather than putting your faith in an institution. Then you can look and see if you want to be a part of the RCC or a different church or whatever you deem is best.

Whats wrong with putting our faith into the Church Christ ''instituted'' here on earth? For when we put our faith into the Church we put our faith into Christ. We dont put our ''faith'' into human beings.

Btw the bible was written by sinners. So if your gonna throw stones at people and leave places because of someones conduct you might as well throw that out the window and all. :pac::)

philologos

I have no interest in throwing stones, but simply in an impartial manner to advise the OP to look into things.

lmaopml

I think the op needs to look into things too and maybe have a chat with his/her Parish Priest to put his/her mind at ease...It's obvious that the op has issues with the Church and it's best that he/she doesn't surmise, but deals with those issues one by one and irons them out with somebody in the know....

Lots of threads here too op dealing with many of the issues you speak of, you could always persuse them too.

Good luck.

marty1985

The OP's mention of the kissing of rings made me think of the Irish bishops doing that in the wake of the Murphy Report, and I seem to recall that this was a big faux pas by the bishops, they weren't supposed to do that. The first bishop did it and all the others followed suit. It was reported in the press at the time that this was not correct protocol in that situation.

Just thought I'd mention this as I think it's probably also what stuck in the OP's mind as well as mine.

alex73

The church on paper may be very rich. But much of the money is not I in liquid form and usually in art that has been passed from previous eras. Sure sell it off, but it's part of catholic heritage and not owned by a particular individual. Many of religious orders in Ireland have assets in property and buildings not money sitting in a bank.

The reasons you give for not wanting to stay in the church are yours, but dont address the core of faith. When I was small we never gave money at Sunday mass. But would give priest a larger sum 2 or 3 times a year. If you want a church you need to fund it. Priest would publish finances so we could see where money was going

gimmebroadband

As the above poster already said, the Catholic Church don't have a lot of money, but are custodians of historical artworks. Many other religious organisations have property that would give the CC a run for it's money!!!

As you can see from the following link, you will find that within 2km of a poverty stricken tin village in Guatemala, there is a huge Evangelical church being constructed that would fit 7,000 people!

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/isn_church_rich.htm

crucamim

Cathal O wrote: »

why should I stay with the catholic church if i will continue to hold my beliefs and act in the most christian manner i can in my daily life

You should not stay. And the RC Church should not allow you to remain.

gigino

Originally Posted by gigino
Any chance on a link to that information, if it shows worldwide Roman Catholic state finances Income, expenditure, etc ? Oh come on, if that info is readily available it must be on the web someplace....and I do not suppose it would ever consider releasing a list of its assets / total value?

georgieporgy wrote: »

http://visnews-en.blogspot.com/2011/07/holy-see-financial-statements-for-2010.html

That link, is it not , is just for the "Holy See" ie the Vatican,the office of the Pope.....while it shows a profit of millions, its not for the worldwide Roman Catholic Church.

gigino

crucamim wrote: »

You should not stay. And the RC Church should not allow you to remain.

OOHHHH. "And the RC Church should not allow you to remain":D
So you think the OP should be excommunicated from the RC Church. A bit harsh, do'nt you think?. After all, the OP has come across as a decent enough person, an honest person, who has not hurt a fly. You think the OP should be on the following list, just for querying the RC priest and looking at the Church objectively ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#20th_century

Actually when you look at that list, there are an awful lot of famous Roman Catholics around the world who done very bad things, crimes against humanity, and who were not excommunicated. The list is noteworthy for who is NOT on it, as well as who is on it...but what else would one expect I suppose. When committed and devoted Roman Catholics ( most of whom are good and decent people, I have to say ) talk about who should be allowed to remain in the RCC, the phrase about stones + glasshouses comes to mind;)

AhSureTisGrand

gigino wrote: »

OOHHHH. "And the RC Church should not allow you to remain":D
So you think the OP should be excommunicated from the RC Church. A bit harsh, do'nt you think?. After all, the OP has come across as a decent enough person, an honest person, who has not hurt a fly. You think the OP should be on the following list, just for querying the RC priest and looking at the Church objectively ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#20th_century

Actually when you look at that list, there are an awful lot of famous Roman Catholics around the world who done very bad things, crimes against humanity, and who were not excommunicated. The list is noteworthy for who is NOT on it, as well as who is on it...but what else would one expect I suppose. When committed and devoted Roman Catholics ( most of whom are good and decent people, I have to say ) talk about who should be allowed to remain in the RCC, the phrase about stones + glasshouses comes to mind;)

There is a second type of excommunication, latae sententiae, which is automatic and does not require a declaration from the Church. However, it does seem to suggest that most nominal Catholics are actually excommunicated.

Linky

Manach

gigino wrote: »

ie the Vatican,the office of the Pope.....while it shows a profit of millions

[OT] so we could hand over the banks to RCC control as it at least is in the black, (given the state of NIB etc) ... [/OT]

Bob Cratchet

georgieporgy wrote: »

As for releasing figures, a detailed statement is released every year on vatican state expenses and income. Don't you read the catholic press?

He never lets things as trivial as the facts get in the way of his arguments.

Bob Cratchet

Cathal O wrote: »

Sorry for the rant, and im sure there is more frustrating things i am livid at the catholic church for, but as the question/ title says:
why should I stay with the catholic church if i will continue to hold my beliefs and act in the most christian manner i can in my daily life

I can tell you why I stayed, and you can take it or leave it.

The vast majority of Catholics feel very let down about how some of the hierocracy have totally mishandled their responsibilities over the years.

As for not liking some Priests, go to any other church/denomination/group and you will find exactly the same proportion of clergy/seniors/elders/others you like/don't like. I find for every Priest I don't like there are dozens I do. If you don't like your current Parish Priest, just attend mass in another Parish.

The important question you have to ask yourself is do you find the doctrine of the church sound.

I decided I was going to leave a few years back, mostly due to all the scandals, but before I left for good, I decided I better put some careful study into it, after all countless generations of my family before me endured things like penal laws and famine to pass the Catholic faith down to me.

The more I studied the teachings of the Church (to refute them), the more I came to appreciate them and where they came from. I released that contrary to my own popular belief, the church had not tacked on a load of mumbo jumbo over the years, but in fact all the malcontents and quitters from the Church over the years had in fact thrown out the early practices of the first Christians, leaving only a very watered down gray faith available outside the Catholic Church. Instead the true Saints remained inside the Church and enhanced Catholic practice and teaching, in spite of, and despite the flaws of some in the Church.

Basically it boils down to which doctrine you think is most authentic. Catholic theology over the centuries has been second to none. Study it and you will see. Even the dozen or so corrupt political popes over the last 2000 years, not one of them managed to change a single piece of Catholic dogma. The gates of hell will never prevail against the Church.

As I said earlier spend time in any other church/denomination/group and sooner or later you will find exactly the same proportion of clergy/elders/seniors/members you like/don't like. That's life.

As for Priests and Bishops who betray and/or let down the Church, well, they have been with us for time immemorial. Even from the time of Jesus. For every twelve apostles there is likely to be a Judas.

Quitting is easy, staying the journey on the narrow path is not.

crucamim

gigino wrote: »

OOHHHH. "And the RC Church should not allow you to remain":D
So you think the OP should be excommunicated from the RC Church. A bit harsh, do'nt you think?. After all, the OP has come across as a decent enough person, an honest person, who has not hurt a fly. You think the OP should be on the following list, just for querying the RC priest and looking at the Church objectively ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#20th_century

Actually when you look at that list, there are an awful lot of famous Roman Catholics around the world who done very bad things, crimes against humanity, and who were not excommunicated. The list is noteworthy for who is NOT on it, as well as who is on it...but what else would one expect I suppose. When committed and devoted Roman Catholics ( most of whom are good and decent people, I have to say ) talk about who should be allowed to remain in the RCC, the phrase about stones + glasshouses comes to mind;)

Any person who has as many reservations about the RC Church as the OP obviously has should not be allowed to remain in it. The same applied to yourself. Quality before quantity. One would expect a German Pope to appreciate the importance of quality control. The RC Church should purge itself of its internal enemies.

crucamim

gigino wrote: »

Why does the Vatican never release any figures or statistics at all on how much money it gets in, and how much is spent on charity?

I do not know. Nor do I care. But, if it bothers you so much, why do you not severe all ties with the RC Church? There is not exactly a world shortage of Catholics.

georgieporgy

gigino wrote: »

Originally Posted by gigino
Any chance on a link to that information, if it shows worldwide Roman Catholic state finances Income, expenditure, etc ? Oh come on, if that info is readily available it must be on the web someplace....and I do not suppose it would ever consider releasing a list of its assets / total value?



That link, is it not , is just for the "Holy See" ie the Vatican,the office of the Pope.....while it shows a profit of millions, its not for the worldwide Roman Catholic Church.

maybe this link will help you understand further.http://www.earlychurchfathers.org/fullcircle/index.php?entry=entry090902-224140

Fanny Cradock

Does any of this relate to the OP's question?

kelly1

Hello Cathal, I think it would be a good idea to ask yourself, are the sacraments important to you? Do you avail of confession? Do you believe that the Eucharist is really and truly Christ? Would you be willing to give up these wonderful gifts??

The Church is made up of frail, sinful, weak humans who struggle along day to day, carrying their crosses. Of course the scandals cause us to question whether we should remain in the Church but we need to keep things in perspective. Do you believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and has invested it with the authority to teach infallibly, to forgive sins and make Christ present on the altar?

God bless you,
Noel.

georgieporgy

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Does any of this relate to the OP's question?

I think the OP alluded to money issues and misuse of funds, lack of charity, and high ranking prelates living in luxury.

Onesimus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Does any of this relate to the OP's question?

Did your first post on the first page of this thread about him looking outside the RC for answers relate to his question?

I somehow dont think so.

PDN

Onesimus wrote: »

Did your first post on the first page of this thread about him looking outside the RC for answers relate to his question?

I somehow dont think so.

I somehow think it does. If someone is asking if they should stay or go, then an obvious factor will be what other options exist for them if they go.

Onesimus

PDN wrote: »

I somehow think it does. If someone is asking if they should stay or go, then an obvious factor will be what other options exist for them if they go.

But the ops question was about why he/she should stay not ''go'' was it not?

PDN

Onesimus wrote: »

But the ops question was about why he/she should stay not ''go'' was it not?

To stay means 'not to go'.

Bob Cratchet

Onesimus

Pace2008

ISAW wrote: »

again dealt with in a prior thread. Popes usually don't live rock star lives in terms of what they use . they don't buy consumer goods and they have or leave little personal wealth when they die.

Don't know too many popes, but I've stayed in the residence of my uncle, who's a bishop, on a few occasions. His home was referred to as a palace, and it was a fairly apt title. He had a housekeeper who kept his house clean and cooked for him every day (made a lovely beef wellington last time I was there - not exactly humble fare.) I've seen the abodes of other high-ranking clergymen around the country, and this sort of setup seems to be the norm.

Maybe they don't have a lot of disposable income, but to suggest that they're leading a life that's in any way ascetic is just misleading.

blogga

The RC church like all religions is the place for those who cannot accept the reality of existence.

Bob Cratchet

blogga wrote: »

The RC church like all religions is the place for those who cannot accept the reality of existence.

Care to explain ?

blogga

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Care to explain ?

If you need it. Inability to accept mortality.

Suzie Sue

blogga wrote: »

If you need it. Inability to accept mortality.

Sure what is there not to accept ?
No one accepts mortality more than a Catholic.
To them this life is a very short test for the next one, which is eternal.

If they are right, then its eternal light for them, and eternal dark for you.
If you are right, no one will know or care.
They have nothing to loose.

philologos

blogga wrote: »

The RC church like all religions is the place for those who cannot accept the reality of existence.

Predictable answer.

I could posit the same about atheism. I could claim it is a place for people to remain until they are too stubborn to acknowledge the reality of existence.

This is fundamentally lazy and it doesn't help the current discussion we're having.

Turtwig

Suzie Sue wrote: »

Sure what is there not to accept ?
No one accepts mortality more than a Catholic.
To them this life is a very short test for the next one, which is eternal.

If they are right, then its eternal light for them, and eternal dark for you.
If you are right, no one will know or care.
They have nothing to loose.

They will have lost a good proportion of their only life if they are wrong.:)