Celibacy and the Church

Solnskaya

Do you reckon it is about time the Catholic Church started asking its priests to take a vow of celibacy?
I think the whole vocation would be the better for it and those who refused to take a vow could be asked to leave, thereby improving the whole Church and its image. The same could go for a vow to swear off alcohol, imbezzlement, gambling, and profiteering. I know this is asking a lot off them, but its only right. I think it could weed them out, down to about, oohh, five or so. What do ye think.

randylonghorn

Solnskaya wrote: »

Do you reckon it is about time the Catholic Church started asking its priests to take a vow of celibacy?

Um, I thought they already did?

Though it obviously doesn't always stick.


Personally, I would disagree btw ... I would be in favour of allowing the secular clergy to marry, as in the Orthodox Catholic churches and the Anglican churches (including the Church of Ireland), and reserving celibacy for those who enter religious orders.

El Guapo!

Isn't that kind of what they do already??

doomed

Solnskaya wrote: »

Do you reckon it is about time the Catholic Church started asking its priests to take a vow of celibacy?
I think the whole vocation would be the better for it and those who refused to take a vow could be asked to leave, thereby improving the whole Church and its image. The same could go for a vow to swear off alcohol, imbezzlement, gambling, and profiteering. I know this is asking a lot off them, but its only right. I think it could weed them out, down to about, oohh, five or so. What do ye think.

I'd be happier if I knew they were having sex with adult women all day everyday.

Mike 1972

doomed wrote: »

I'd be happier if I knew they were having sex with adult women all day everyday.

I think we should wait and get an adult womans view on this though :pac:

Solnskaya

I actually think demanding a vow of celibacy is a weirdo's charter, almost guaranteed to get you a bunch of mal adjusted repressed and out of touch misfits, but hey, if your gonna sign up to somthing, how about actually signing up and doing it. I'm not a churchy type, but I get tired listening to to the litany of sneaky, underhand feckers having their secrets paraded while preaching to the rest of us.

7sr2z3fely84g5

that would be an ecumenical matter

Solnskaya

doomed wrote: »

I'd be happier if I knew they were having sex with adult women all day everyday.

Apparently half are, the rest are after our kids. Corporate fail to me, and to me, it's just a corporation, Catholic Church Ltd.

Latchy

Solnskaya wrote: »

Do you reckon it is about time the Catholic Church started asking its priests to take a vow of celibacy?
I think the whole vocation would be the better for it and those who refused to take a vow could be asked to leave, thereby improving the whole Church and its image. The same could go for a vow to swear off alcohol, imbezzlement, gambling, and profiteering. I know this is asking a lot off them, but its only right. I think it could weed them out, down to about, oohh, five or so. What do ye think.

This is a church that doesn't class it priests as 'employees' therefore doesn't think it's liable for their behaviour in the thousends of sex abuse cases , which is the norm for employees who are found guilty of sexual abuse and harrasment in the working envoirment .

The Catholic churchs image is damaged byond improvement imo .Oh ...as already mentioned ,their supposed to be celibate anyway .

Solnskaya wrote: »

Apparently half are, the rest are after our kids. Corporate fail to me, and to me, it's just a corporation, Catholic Church Ltd.

Amen !

Wolfe Tone

Another bash the church/all priests are paedophiles thread I guess?


The truth is, not all priests are paedos, some are sound enough lads who do a ton of work with the elderly, visiting them in their homes etc. They also do great work with the sick and those who are mourning dead relations.

Bashing priests and the church is getting fcuking old.

up for anything

doomed wrote: »

I'd be happier if I knew they were having sex with adult women all day everyday.

Or adult men.

7sr2z3fely84g5

i think they should be allowed to marry..

Solnskaya

Funnily enough, I've a mate from school who is so high up in the vatican that he calls the pope Benny, but here's the rub, he's trained as a lawyer, and trained as well as money could buy. Basically, he uses the law to defend the church around the globe against lawsuits. To me, this, like everything about the RCC Ltd, kinda goes against the whole spirit of the thing.

partyatmygaff

They already do. The problem is that a small minority don't actually hold true to those vows. Personally I see no reason for priests not to marry but then again i'm not a Catholic.

Needler

Misread title as "Celebrity and the Clutch"

randylonghorn

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The truth is, not all priests are paedos, some are sound enough lads who do a ton of work with the elderly, visiting them in their homes etc. They also do great work with the sick and those who are mourning dead relations.

Bashing priests and the church is getting fcuking old.

Nevertheless, leaving any agendas aside, the question is valid I think.

Should RC secular (parish) clergy be allowed to marry?

Is there any good argument for the imposition of celibacy?

Does it do more harm than good, by creating lonely men lacking in the support and joy of a wife and family and a full life?

Solnskaya

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Another bash the church/all priests are paedophiles thread I guess?


The truth is, not all priests are paedos, some are sound enough lads who do a ton of work with the elderly, visiting them in their homes etc. They also do great work with the sick and those who are mourning dead relations.

Bashing priests and the church is getting fcuking old.

Nope, you're wrong. I'm not bashing the Church, I'm asking wtf is the story with the whole false, crappy hypocrisy. I could care less if the local priest was gay, married or celibate. To me, if it's a vocation, fine, vocate ahead, but let them marry, let them live with a partner, let them be single. Ditto for alcohol, ganbling etc. But, ffs, lose the hypocrisy, because any semi-intelligent person knows the real story, and I would prefer my Priest to be a well adjusted, happy individual who lived, not some fake, glued on beard Santa spouting guff. And lose the whole money making plan, it just doesn't sit with the mission.

Wolfe Tone

randylonghorn wrote: »

Nevertheless, leaving any agendas aside, the question is valid I think.

Should RC secular (parish) clergy be allowed to marry?

Is there any good argument for the imposition of celibacy?

Does it do more harm than good, by creating lonely men lacking in the support and joy of a wife and family and a full life?

The idea is that they are married to the church and they don't get distracted from their relationship with god by a nagging wife or head wrecking kids.

So if men don't get married they are lonely? They aren't forced to be priests.

They can always leave. Personally I don't care if they get married or not.

EDIT: If they didnt have to be celibate more would join the priesthood.

Latchy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Another bash the church/all priests are paedophiles thread I guess?


The truth is, not all priests are paedos, some are sound enough lads who do a ton of work with the elderly, visiting them in their homes etc. They also do great work with the sick and those who are mourning dead relations.

Bashing priests and the church is getting fcuking old.

You say 'another 'as if any previous thread on that subject wern't deserved .Well they fcuking were but as this is about celibacy and not pedo priests I take your point .

As for other points in your posts ,see tongue in cheek post below as to why people hold the church so rightly in contempt .

Solnskaya wrote: »

Funnily enough, I've a mate from school who is so high up in the vatican that he calls the pope Benny, but here's the rub, he's trained as a lawyer, and trained as well as money could buy. Basically, he uses the law to defend the church around the globe against lawsuits. To me, this, like everything about the RCC Ltd, kinda goes against the whole spirit of the thing.

Solnskaya

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The idea is that they are married to the church and they don't get distracted from their relationship with god by a nagging wife or head wrecking kids.

So if men don't get married they are lonely? They aren't forced to be priests.

They can always leave. Personally I don't care if they get married or not.

EDIT: If they didnt have to be celibate more would join the priesthood.

Sadly Wolfie, thats whats happening. They are retiring, and nobody is replacing them, because, largely, of the whole Vatican BS that goes with the job.

partyatmygaff

Latchy wrote: »

As for other points in your posts ,see post below as to why people hold the church so rightly in contempt .

A mate of mine is a well trained neurologist who works in the Vatican and is currently designing a mind control device using funds from the collection baskets.

randylonghorn

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The idea is that they are married to the church and they don't get distracted from their relationship with god by a nagging wife or head wrecking kids.

For one reason or another, I've got to know a number of CofI clergy in the last couple of years, both male and female. Most are married. All are imho totally dedicated to their work in the church. Their families do not seem to distract them ... if anything, they are a source of strength, and give them a greater empathy with their parishioners. And in many cases, spouses will assist in the practical running of the parish.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So if men don't get married they are lonely?

Not necessarily ofc, but the call to priesthood and the call to celibacy are not the same thing, and they don't always go hand in hand. I know many priests who are perfectly happy as they are, and I also know some who are mind-numbingly lonely and depressed.

Naturally, I'm not advocating that marriage should be mandatory ... simply that it should be an option for secular clergy.

As it was for half the church's history btw ... and still is for the Eastern Orthodox (Catholic) churches and for Anglican Catholics.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

EDIT: If they didnt have to be celibate more would join the priesthood.

Agreed.

Latchy

partyatmygaff wrote: »

A mate of mine is a well trained neurologist who works in the Vatican and is currently designing a mind control device using funds from the collection baskets.

Now don't go believing everything your friends tell ya now ...

im invisible

Solnskaya wrote: »

The same could go for a vow to swear off alcohol,

they do, they get around it by turning it into 2000 year old blood

Needler

randylonghorn wrote: »

For one reason or another, I've got to know a number of CofI clergy in the last couple of years, both male and female. Most are married. All are imho totally dedicated to their work in the church. Their families do not seem to distract them ... if anything, they are a source of strength, and give them a greater empathy with their parishioners. And in many cases, spouses will assist in the practical running of the parish.

Not necessarily ofc, but the call to priesthood and the call to celibacy are not the same thing, and they don't always go hand in hand. I know many priests who are perfectly happy as they are, and I also know some who are mind-numbingly lonely and depressed.

Naturally, I'm not advocating that marriage should be mandatory ... simply that it should be an option for secular clergy.

As it was for half the church's history btw ... and still is for the Eastern Orthodox (Catholic) churches and for Anglican Catholics.

Agreed.

Your username is well suited to giving advice about celibacy

KeithAFC

They are what they are. Frankly i don't know why anyone would attend such a ridiculous church or religion but that is life. I don't see this changing any time soon in regards to celibacy.

randylonghorn

Needler wrote: »

Your username is well suited to giving advice about celibacy

It's probably appropriate enough for expressing the view that enforced celibacy isn't all it's cracked up to be! :P

krudler

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Another bash the church/all priests are paedophiles thread I guess?


The truth is, not all priests are paedos, some are sound enough lads who do a ton of work with the elderly, visiting them in their homes etc. They also do great work with the sick and those who are mourning dead relations.

Bashing priests and the church is getting fcuking old.

no but they are part of one of the most vile organisations in the world.

Wolfe Tone

krudler wrote: »

no but they are part of one of the most vile organisations in the world.

:rolleyes:

KeithAFC

krudler wrote: »

no but they are part of one of the most vile organisations in the world.

What makes you think that?

aligator_am

Personally, I think the Catholic church should allow their priests to marry women and get up to all sorts with them.

I've asked devout Catholics this in the past and none could answer, why would God give you a penis if you weren't meant to use it? according to the new testament priests were allowed get married.

It was only the Roman dictatorship which blocked priests from doing it (which I'm nearly sure was based around a letter where St. Paul decided to become a prude, so the church forced it on everyone!!!)

I'm still trying to figure out how a man could better serve God if he couldn't use all the tools that God gave him...

Wolfe Tone

Someone throw a thread up in the Jesus forum

Solnskaya

krudler wrote: »

no but they are part of one of the most vile organisations in the world.

\Sadly, this is where they're at, so howdy Benny, whatcher gonna do to change this?? My guess, nothing. As per usual. A quick read of their own rules wouldn't go amiss.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

What makes you think that?

I nearly spat my toast out, you disagree?

HerrScheisse

Some priests do marvelous work. Someone has to say it.

7sr2z3fely84g5

i think the scandals and joining the eu finally broke the iron grip it had in this small country.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I nearly spat my toast out, you disagree?

Want to hear his views on it. Its a big statement to make.

HerrScheisse

We have here the beginnings of a new schism - Keith and Wolfe Tone.

randylonghorn

aligator_am wrote: »

It was only the Roman dictatorship which blocked priests from doing it (which I'm nearly sure was based around a letter where St. Paul decided to become a prude, so the church forced it on everyone!!!)

Actually, the main reason is because in the middle ages inheritance laws started to change. This led to all sorts of arguments and problems, including benefices and monastic offices which became almost hereditary within families (there had been laxity and some scandals within some monastic houses as well). There was a thirst for reform, and it was seen as easier to impose celibacy on all secular as well as religious clergy. Bad move in the long run, imho.

Paul, in fact, while something of a misogynist, wasn't specifically against marriage, saying "it is better to marry than to burn (with lust)".

When the church decided to impose celibacy on all clergy, they went looking for citations to back their stance, and Paul's misogny was a good source.

Wolfe Tone

HerrScheisse wrote: »

We have here the beginnings of a new schism - Keith and Wolfe Tone.

Me and Keith are going to put aside our differences, embrace the force and go off to become Jedi.

I call dibs on the green light saber though, he can have the orange one.

Paparazzo

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Another bash the church/all priests are paedophiles thread I guess?


The truth is, not all priests are paedos, some are sound enough lads who do a ton of work with the elderly, visiting them in their homes etc. They also do great work with the sick and those who are mourning dead relations.

Bashing priests and the church is getting fcuking old.

No one said they're all paedos btw.
But IMHO they deserve every bit of criticism. If you're sick of it scroll on by, but I hope it goes on for a long long time. I don't care how many elderly people they comforted, it doesn't make up for even 1 of the thousands of kids that were repeatedly raped by them.

HerrScheisse

OK I'll say it then.

If it were not for the Catholics, then there would not be any Protestants.

AnneElizabeth

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The idea is that they are married to the church and they don't get distracted from their relationship with god by a nagging wife or head wrecking kids.

Nice view of marriage you have there :P

An argument for why they should be celibate is: How will they be able to provide for a family? They take a vow of poverty as far as I'm aware and mainly live on handouts.

Though I think it would still be better if they could marry.

krudler

KeithAFC wrote: »

What makes you think that?

Really? this is the same church that blames condoms for the spread of AIDS in Africa,openyl says homosexuality is evil, that poverty and suffering is a good thing and a path to god despite having extravagent wealth itself, held this country in the dark ages for decades, is responsible for the abuse or murder of countless children, sees women as inferior people and is full of corruption.

7sr2z3fely84g5

i heard celibacy was introduced so the divorcee would not be entitled to some church wealth

aligator_am

randylonghorn wrote: »

Actually, the main reason is because in the middle ages inheritance laws started to change. This led to all sorts of arguments and problems, including benefices and monastic offices which became almost hereditary within families (there had been laxity and some scandals within some monastic houses as well). There was a thirst for reform, and it was seen as easier to impose celibacy on all secular as well as religious clergy. Bad move in the long run, imho.

Paul, in fact, while something of a misogynist, wasn't specifically against marriage, saying "it is better to marry than to burn (with lust)".

When the church decided to impose celibacy on all clergy, they went looking for citations to back their stance, and Paul's misogny was a good source.

Fair point, I wasn't aware of that.

philologos

Biblically speaking a lot of ministers in the church were married, Peter who the RCC claim as their first Pope for example was married (1 Corinthians 9). Paul also tells the church leaders that they should be married only once (1 Timothy 3, Titus 1).

I believe there are huge advantages to having church leaders who themselves know what it is like to have a family, and indeed to have a strong relationship.

In terms of the RCC what's peculiar is that Latin Rite priests can marry as can priests who converted from Anglicanism in Britain who are already married. I don't see why there is one rule for some and another for others, but ultimately if the RCC want to govern their affairs in any given way that is up to them as far as I see it.

HerrScheisse

You get your wealth when you die *

* No refund

KeithAFC

Katherine Faithful Case wrote: »

i heard celibacy was introduced so the divorcee would not be entitled to some church wealth

Would not surprise me. Although i am all for religious freedom (worship wise), for some reason, clergy seem to have a big hold in society. If something kicks off around these parts up here, the first thing they do is get a religious clergy person on TV. No, go away.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Well,the world didn't end years ago here with scandals of the priest's having kids with their lovers.

Wolfe Tone

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Nice view of marriage you have there :P

An argument for why they should be celibate is: How will they be able to provide for a family? They take a vow of poverty as far as I'm aware and mainly live on handouts.

Though I think it would still be better if they could marry.

Lol its not my idea, I'm certainly not very religious, thats just the gist of what one of my teachers, who was a priest, told me.

They dont all take that vow btw, some monks do. They live off the church collections and stuff.