Dry Needling

dernipper

Not sure if this is the correct forum to post this but seems to fit here better than the events section.

Just wondering what the general opinion was if any regarding dry needling versus traditional massage treatment for muscle injuries?
Not looking for any specific advice regarding certain physios etc just if any posters
Have had dry needling as a treatment to resolve muscle injuries, if so did you find
It beneficial, quicker return to injury etc ?

Have been troubled by a calf muscle injury and the physio has recommended dry neddling as a treatment, undecided to try it.

Thanks !

BeepBeep67

I had a combination of massage and dry needling about 18mths ago to clear up a calf tear - worked a treat for me and I was back in a few weeks.
It's pretty sore getting it done and afterwards - but for me was worth it.

Caprica

I had a calf injury after my last marathon and used dry needling as part of my recovery. It definitely helped the recovery process, as things were going slowly before it. As the last poster said it can be painful. I found the sessions tough and afterwards suffered from cramps but I was told that beforehand so was aware of it.

I think it is definitely of benefit but as with any injury you should get back in to training gradually there is no point in rushing things.

W.B. Yeats

Have just had my second session today on my glutes
Found it fine to be honest. Not really painful just a few muscle twitches when the physio hits the trigger point, actually a lot easier than regular massage if I'm honest.
I had a few sessions of massage treatment that hadn't worked if I'm honest so I'm very happy thus far with it as my problem areas have improved

Jnealon

I had it done twice in my calves and found it great. The needling is not painful but can be a bit sore after.
Just make sure that it's a chartered physio who's doing the needling

Cartman78

Would highly recommend this based on personal experience.

BUT as with 'normal' physio treatment, the quality of the treatment will depend on the quality of the physio so worth researching before you dive in.

Useless Dry Needling Trivia - one of the main pioneers of this treatment was JFK's personal physician

TFBubendorfer

You guys must be getting dry needling done in a different way than I did when I had it done.

It was so painful I nearly jumped up to the ceiling every time he hit the spot. It did clear up my calf problems, which is why I still felt it was worthwhile.

BrendanCro

Think the level of pain depends on how bad the muscle is. I got it done on my back about 6 months or so apart. 1st time I wanted to cry but next one wasn't as bad as back wasn't as tight.

I find it can be very very helpful although be careful of physio usingit as default option (especially if they charge extra for it!) and will lose a few days training after the treatment ( i was too sore to do swimming as cross training).

Cartman78

yep...should have mentioned that it can be intensely painful but is more than worth it imo.

Remember, pain is a sign of weakness leaving the body :-)

Have found that the glutes and hammys are generally less painful & the calves be v.sore but sorest I've experienced was in the neck/shoulder area

Little M

I have had both forms of Intervention for hamstring tendonopathy/ Glut problem, I found Dry Needling incredibly sore ( but maybe I'm a wuss ) but very effective. If you are prepared for the pain, and the 1-2 days of soreness afterwards, its worth it for length of relief and speed to recovery I think.

Goodluck

dernipper

Thank you all for taking the time and effort to reply, much appreciated. Had some treatment earlier and it sure does hurt! I believe the calf muscles are the most painful, unlucky me ! To be honest more of a dull ache but when you hit a trigger point it is tough, like a severe cramp almost, having said that waiting and bracing urself for the next trigger point was almost worse than the pain itself ! Here is hoping it works, have lost 3 weeks of training already and the 5 mile race series is now at best an easy paced run, at this stage happy to be at the start line for it !

Little M wrote: »

I have had both forms of Intervention for hamstring tendonopathy/ Glut problem, I found Dry Needling incredibly sore ( but maybe I'm a wuss ) but very effective. If you are prepared for the pain, and the 1-2 days of soreness afterwards, its worth it for length of relief and speed to recovery I think.

Goodluck

PaulieYifter

Had 3 sessions of it into the glutes and tfl/hip area.
Session 1 was a lot more sore than the next 2.
All gave some benefit but session 2 hit the jackpot - could not believe that 30 mins of this gave me the same improvement as 2 weeks of foam rolling and stretching.
What you get out of it will depend on the quality of the physio doing it.

Go for it - everybody should experience it!

nikki79

Hey
I am considering getting this done for my calves too but dont know who to go too. Can anyone reccommend someone for me in Galway?
Cheers

tHE vAGGABOND

I have had two sessions of needling on the hip issue I had [past tense, see that, yay :cool:] and the lady doing it was asking me literally 5 or 6 times if I was ok with needles, and if I had a bad reaction last week [etc]

So I guess some people must HATE it? But it really works, I had it for knee issues and hamstring issues in the past, and its a few seconds of pain [and no more] for near instant gain!

IMHO a no brainer...

[TBH the secret is doing the stretches and exercises your physio gives you, when you feel good and things seem fine - its since I started doing that I have gone on to another level running wise, as I have had next to no real injury problems intrupting training *touches wood*]

rainbow kirby

I've had it for hip and ITB issues - painful when it's happening (particularly on my ITB straight after Barcelona... :eek: ) but very helpful in terms of clearing up the injuries I've had.

nikki79

Who does dry neddling in galway?

token56

Could anyone recommend someone in or around the maynooth/celbridge/lucan area?

tunguska

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

You guys must be getting dry needling done in a different way than I did when I had it done.

It was so painful I nearly jumped up to the ceiling every time he hit the spot. It did clear up my calf problems, which is why I still felt it was worthwhile.

Ditto. Just had it done and it was traumatic. Cant walk right now. Cant even get up out of the chair. My calve muscles were doing somersaults(still are hours later)when the needle would go in.
Not for the faint of heart.

Cartman78

tunguska wrote: »

Ditto. Just had it done and it was traumatic. Cant walk right now. Cant even get up out of the chair. My calve muscles were doing somersaults(still are hours later)when the needle would go in.
Not for the faint of heart.

Sounds like you got butchered a bit there.

Did the physio apply heat packs following the treatment (or advise you to do so when you got home)?

Also, from experience, I find that drinking water both before and after dry needling can help.

Spins

Been dry needled in shoulder and calf and worked a treat both times. Not sore, just uncomfortable. Agree with earlier poster, quicker and less painful that a deep massage....

tunguska

Cartman78 wrote: »

Sounds like you got butchered a bit there.

Did the physio apply heat packs following the treatment (or advise you to do so when you got home)?

Also, from experience, I find that drinking water both before and after dry needling can help.

Ah no she well informed me of everything I needed to do at my end of things. My body was just a bit traumatised by the whole experience. Got home and just had to go to bed, felt exhausted after it. Physio said that first time is the worst so hopefully it wont be so bad next time. Very strange experience feeling yor muscles jump like crazy when the needle touched off them.

dernipper

Endured some painful nedling sessions and although a huge improvement not enough progress for a full recovery and so not going to chance the Frank Duffy 5 mile race series in the morning,, her's hoping that the pain and patience will be rewarded by an injury free training program fort eh marathon in Oct !!

dernipper

token56 wrote: »

Could anyone recommend someone in or around the maynooth/celbridge/lucan area?

Let me know if you are still looking for a contact, I got my treatment in Maynooth and very happy with the service,,

dernipper

that sounds about right ! the first 2 sessions I had the tension in my calf muscles were racing up and down my leg like seismic tremors, breaking out n sweats and cursing !! afterwards I could just about hop but fine if a bit tender the next day, subsequent sessions were far more relaxed and less painful as the injury cleared up and muscles loosened up

tunguska wrote: »

Ditto. Just had it done and it was traumatic. Cant walk right now. Cant even get up out of the chair. My calve muscles were doing somersaults(still are hours later)when the needle would go in.
Not for the faint of heart.

tunguska

Got another session of dry needling done yesterday only this time around the physio attached electrodes to the needles and passed electric current into the muscles. Freaky experience. Lying there on the table like a human pin cushion with some lad passing electricity through me, had a little chuckle to myself. It'll be waterboarding next..........
Absolutley bolloxed tired afterwards, still pretty tired today.
Anybody have this form of dry needling done? If so, where you exhausted afterwards?

Seres

tunguska wrote: »

Got another session of dry needling done yesterday only this time around the physio attached electrodes to the needles and passed electric current into the muscles. Freaky experience. Lying there on the table like a human pin cushion with some lad passing electricity through me, had a little chuckle to myself. It'll be waterboarding next..........
Absolutley bolloxed tired afterwards, still pretty tired today.
Anybody have this form of dry needling done? If so, where you exhausted afterwards?

reminds me of a certain scene in Clockwork Orange , your brain operating the same ?!

PaulieYifter

tunguska wrote: »

Got another session of dry needling done yesterday only this time around the physio attached electrodes to the needles and passed electric current into the muscles. Freaky experience. Lying there on the table like a human pin cushion with some lad passing electricity through me, had a little chuckle to myself. It'll be waterboarding next..........
Absolutley bolloxed tired afterwards, still pretty tired today.
Anybody have this form of dry needling done? If so, where you exhausted afterwards?

Jesus - sounds magic!

tunguska

Seres wrote: »

reminds me of a certain scene in Clockwork Orange , your brain operating the same ?!

Yeah it was like that alright. There was a fair bit of yelping coming from aswell so it was pretty much a re-run of the aversion therapy.
Very strange experience, muscles were jumping like crazy during high voltage rock n roll.

Seres

tunguska wrote: »

Yeah it was like that alright. There was a fair bit of yelping coming from aswell so it was pretty much a re-run of the aversion therapy.
Very strange experience, muscles were jumping like crazy during high voltage rock n roll.

Tell me was it one of those white padded sound proof rooms with a window with men in white coats looking in jotting down notes . Did they give you a sock for the screams ?! , your on the cutting edge of sport therapy there boss

Got the dry needling done there last week in the shoulders , waaay worse than when i got it in the glutes !

gottarun

nikki79 wrote: »

Who does dry neddling in galway?

I've been seeing Greg Maclean in Oranmore for the past while. He has been deep muscle massaging some difficult spots and treating an old, old damaged quad with dry needling.

Like everyone else it is painful (afterwards) the twitch can be a bit unusual and it will take a few days out of training. With 70.3 coming up I have dropped the needling in the past week to avoid any issues but do find it very good at triggering a muscle response.

Link to Greg's website with explanation of dry needling

gottarun

tunguska wrote: »

Got another session of dry needling done yesterday only this time around the physio attached electrodes to the needles and passed electric current into the muscles. Freaky experience. Lying there on the table like a human pin cushion with some lad passing electricity through me, had a little chuckle to myself. It'll be waterboarding next..........
Absolutley bolloxed tired afterwards, still pretty tired today.
Anybody have this form of dry needling done? If so, where you exhausted afterwards?

Got it done by an aucupuncturist in Dalkey years ago. My back had siezed up in spasm. By electro stimulation he was able to CTRL ALT DELETE the nerves in the muscle allowing them to relax and ease out.

A bit like the way those slender tone belts used to work by passing a current into the muscle. Used to have a Daley Thompsom tens machine which was great craic after a couple of beers, 'wait til you see this!' strap electrodes to a chaps bicep and trigger the arm to raise the glass. You'd have to have been there.

opus

By coincidence, saw this pic on dailymile.com yesterday, doesn't exactly look like something I'd be eager to try!

tunguska

gottarun wrote: »

Used to have a Daley Thompsom tens machine which was great craic after a couple of beers, 'wait til you see this!' strap electrodes to a chaps bicep and trigger the arm to raise the glass. You'd have to have been there.

Classic.

Seres wrote: »

Got the dry needling done there last week in the shoulders , waaay worse than when i got it in the glutes !

You should try getting your calves done, better yet, the soles of your feet.

brownian

Tunguska reckons dry needling might be worth a go in my ill-timed calf problems (what with DCM and all that)...who does it on the south side of Dublin, who's any good?

Thanks!!

RacoonQueen

They do it in Functional Training Ireland - think it's hard enough to get an appointment though, AFAIK only Ursula does it there.

Think Darren Kelly in Base2Race does it too?

tunguska

brownian wrote: »

Tunguska reckons dry needling might be worth a go in my ill-timed calf problems (what with DCM and all that)...who does it on the south side of Dublin, who's any good?

Thanks!!

RacoonQueen wrote: »

They do it in Functional Training Ireland - think it's hard enough to get an appointment though, AFAIK only Ursula does it there.

Think Darren Kelly in Base2Race does it too?

Yeah it is a bit difficult to get an appontment with Funtional training ireland alright. Darren kelly in base2race does do it, he's the guy I go to. Top bloke, knows his stuff, highly recommend you give Darren a shout Brownian.

Frogeye

Just got it done on my shoulder and my glute. Shoulder was hopping like a hoppy thing. My glute wasn't exactly calm either.

Has it done a few times and it always works a treat. At least I can stand up straight now!

brownian

Had a session of dry needling just now, as suggested by Tunguska. Not sure about it. There wasn't a great deal of pain, but the therapist seemed surprised that I didn't respond more, as she expected a fair amount of hopping and skipping, not me lying there like a dead thing. Definitely not a pleasurable experience, but no peeling me off the walls either.

As a result, I'm not sure if it was done right, or if I'm simply impervious, or if today's session just got bogged down in the superficial muscles, so that we didn't get a decent reaction from the deeper ones (the last being the interpretation of the therapist). Another session booked for Thursday, with a jog in between...we will see.

One thing that I found odd was that the therapist didn't seem bothered about the injuries themselves, or about the state of my overall injuredness. She suggests getting a bit of a run in tomorrow, which means (to me) that she discounts the injuries that I have, or expects them not to be an issue. Puzzled.

Anyway, will report back tomorrow - maybe there'll be miraculous improvement?

tunguska

brownian wrote: »

Had a session of dry needling just now, as suggested by Tunguska. Not sure about it. There wasn't a great deal of pain, but the therapist seemed surprised that I didn't respond more, as she expected a fair amount of hopping and skipping, not me lying there like a dead thing. Definitely not a pleasurable experience, but no peeling me off the walls either.

As a result, I'm not sure if it was done right, or if I'm simply impervious, or if today's session just got bogged down in the superficial muscles, so that we didn't get a decent reaction from the deeper ones (the last being the interpretation of the therapist). Another session booked for Thursday, with a jog in between...we will see.

One thing that I found odd was that the therapist didn't seem bothered about the injuries themselves, or about the state of my overall injuredness. She suggests getting a bit of a run in tomorrow, which means (to me) that she discounts the injuries that I have, or expects them not to be an issue. Puzzled.

Anyway, will report back tomorrow - maybe there'll be miraculous improvement?

Hmmm. Sounds strange alright. The first time I had it done I got home and I couldnt get up out the chair once I'd sat down. I just passed out after that. My body was just traumatised by the whole thing. So to hear you say there was no reaction, especially when you'd been complaining of tightness in the calve is very strange. I'd cancel that appointment and go see Darren in base2race or pete matthews in functional training, then you'll know for sure you're getting it done right.

dernipper

It could have been a sime case of not getting to the exact source of the tightness in the muscle however very surprised about advice of going for run, general advice I got was apply heat and take it easy for at least a day,,, advice very easy to follow as a result of the tenderness and pain following a session

tunguska wrote: »

brownian wrote: »

Had a session of dry needling just now, as suggested by Tunguska. Not sure about it. There wasn't a great deal of pain, but the therapist seemed surprised that I didn't respond more, as she expected a fair amount of hopping and skipping, not me lying there like a dead thing. Definitely not a pleasurable experience, but no peeling me off the walls either.

As a result, I'm not sure if it was done right, or if I'm simply impervious, or if today's session just got bogged down in the superficial muscles, so that we didn't get a decent reaction from the deeper ones (the last being the interpretation of the therapist). Another session booked for Thursday, with a jog in between...we will see.

One thing that I found odd was that the therapist didn't seem bothered about the injuries themselves, or about the state of my overall injuredness. She suggests getting a bit of a run in tomorrow, which means (to me) that she discounts the injuries that I have, or expects them not to be an issue. Puzzled.

Anyway, will report back tomorrow - maybe there'll be miraculous improvement?

Hmmm. Sounds strange alright. The first time I had it done I got home and I couldnt get up out the chair once I'd sat down. I just passed out after that. My body was just traumatised by the whole thing. So to hear you say there was no reaction, especially when you'd been complaining of tightness in the calve is very strange. I'd cancel that appointment and go see Darren in base2race or pete matthews in functional training, then you'll know for sure you're getting it done right.

brownian

@tunguska - I hear you. I've mailed Darren to see...if I can't get an appt, I'll keep the existing one. Thanks for the input - much appreciated.

@dernipper - to be fair, she didn't suggest that I head out tonight and run, but to have a spin around tomorrow to see how I went.

It's certainly stiffening up and sorer now than it was earlier - nothing like sitting at a PC to lock up the muscles.

brownian

At the risk of taking over this thread (I do have a log of my own), I did go to see Darren at B2R and I can certainly recommend the experience. It was sore enough, but not as bad as Tunguska was making out...maybe I got less electricity or gentler handling, or maybe I'm just tougher

Either way, there was a decent amount of history and discussion of the issues, lots of warnings about discomfort, some chat about the theory of dry needling, then a solid session of manipulation/warmup (very sore at times), before two dozen needles were stuck in, wired up to a TENS machine and left to cook for 15 minutes. Pain levels varied from uncomfortable to ouch, with the option to turn up the machine at any time if it's not savage enough for you. Then a quick stretch, advice not to run for a day or so but to go heavy on the foam roller, and off you go.

tunguska

brownian wrote: »

It was sore enough, but not as bad as Tunguska was making out

I think you took me up wrong, I never said the process of needling was sore. I said its traumatic to the body in that the first time you get it done(calves anyway)your body can react by feeling tired, and the calves themselves are stiff.

brownian wrote: »

maybe I got less electricity or gentler handling or maybe I'm just tougher

Meeeeooowwww saucer of milk for one.

anymore

I am undergoing accupuncture right now for foot/groin problems which physio have not resloved but will combine it now with no running for a min of month
I will update on any progress at end of period. .

brownian

tunguska wrote: »

I think you took me up wrong, I never said the process of needling was sore. I said its traumatic to the body in that the first time you get it done(calves anyway)your body can react by feeling tired, and the calves themselves are stiff.



Meeeeooowwww saucer of milk for one.

Ah now, only slaggin! I know you're much tougher than I am:)

Overall, I think we're in agreement that Darren does a good job. And as for the efficacy of dry needling as a therapy, I was pretty impressed on my ten-miler yesterday - only a small niggle from each calf the whole way around (though a bit sore later on and today). So thank you for the original suggestion - well appreciated.

Middle Distance

Ditto for Ursula in Functional Training Ireland. She is brilliant. A couple of my running buddies have gone to her too and found her very impressive. You might have to wait a day or two for an appointment for dry needling but worth the wait in my opinion:)

tunguska

brownian wrote: »

Ah now, only slaggin! I know you're much tougher than I am:)

Overall, I think we're in agreement that Darren does a good job. And as for the efficacy of dry needling as a therapy, I was pretty impressed on my ten-miler yesterday - only a small niggle from each calf the whole way around (though a bit sore later on and today). So thank you for the original suggestion - well appreciated.

Ah no worries. Just wanted to be clear that dry needling, the process itself, isnt painful. Dont want to scare anybody because it really is very effective.
Glad to hear your calve is better, I'd get it done one more time before the marathon though, just to be sure.

meijin

Just back from getting my calf dry needled :eek:
This calf was actually causing me problems even before I started any sport activity, seizing up at night and I would wake up with a scream from the pain.
It was always a bit tight, and no amount of stretching, massaging or foam rolling seemed to help. I hope to get it sorted finally.

woodchopper

It was so painful I nearly jumped up to the ceiling every time he hit the spot.

Strangely enough my wife has said the exact same thing to her physio

meijin

Luckily dry needling itself wasn't painful for me, just a bit funny feeling when my muscles twitched. I was warned that it will be sore afterwards (it is :eek:) and to ice it.

kennyb3

Anyone recommend anyone around the north county dublin area? Malahide or Drumcondra preferrable or within half hours drive