Making moves to end sectarianism in the north

steddyeddy

I know sectarinism will never be eradicated in the north but are people doing enough to bring communties together in the north. For example if sectarianism is such a problem in the north should we still have schools which divide kids based on religion or should protestant and catholic kids be mixed?

RMD

Protestant and Catholic kids should be mixed, from experience it lead to groups where religion meant nothing as they were all friends. Problem is getting the parents to agree to it, or in the hardline Republican / Loyalist areas even getting the idea of it listened to.

steddyeddy

RMD wrote: »

Protestant and Catholic kids should be mixed, from experience it lead to groups where religion meant nothing as they were all friends. Problem is getting the parents to agree to it, or in the hardline Republican / Loyalist areas even getting the idea of it listened to.

Thats exactly what I would have thought but if you get rid of protestant and catholic schools you would eliminate both groups choice in the matter.

RMD

It works with kids from "progressive" households, but if you were to take kids from 2 extremes I doubt it would work and instead lead to more trouble than it would prevent. I suppose the way to look at it Nationalists and Unionists can generally be combined, but it will take a lot more to combine Republicans and Loyalists.

steddyeddy

RMD wrote: »

It works with kids from "progressive" households, but if you were to take kids from 2 extremes I doubt it would work and instead lead to more trouble than it would prevent. I suppose the way to look at it Nationalists and Unionists can generally be combined, but it will take a lot more to combine Republicans and Loyalists.

Well unionist and republicans are political terms I wondering can we take the religion out of that which has no place within politics.

Cavehill Red

RMD wrote: »

Protestant and Catholic kids should be mixed, from experience it lead to groups where religion meant nothing as they were all friends. Problem is getting the parents to agree to it, or in the hardline Republican / Loyalist areas even getting the idea of it listened to.

Make it mandatory.
Scrap the CCMS and put community quotas on all schools.
If the kids don't mix together in schools, then they'll keep believing their forefathers' scare stories about 'themmuns', and keep living in self-selecting ghettos where they never meet, and will hence be able to keep the hate alive.
Short-circuit the hate by getting at the kids early, whether the parents want it or not.

jhegarty

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well unionist and republicans are political terms I wondering can we take the religion out of that which has no place within politics.

There are two different communities who hate each other , religion is only a good way to keep score.

If religion disappeared tomorrow morning the two sides would be back throwing petrol bombs at each other by lunch time.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Remember what's referred to as sectarianism goes further in ni than religion. It is actually closer to racism because the Protestant community/Catholic community are semi ethnic groups - descended from planters/natives.

I think religion should be taken out of school. School is for learning church is for religion.

Then the catchment areas for schools should be done up so they have similar numbers of each community in each school. not possible in every area but it would be in the cities where the problems are arising.

It won't have immediate effects but if its not done we'll be having this same conversation in 30 years time. Most of the cross community work will be superficial if people don't develop real friendships across the divide

steddyeddy

jhegarty wrote: »

There are two different communities who hate each other , religion is only a good way to keep score.

If religion disappeared tomorrow morning the two sides would be back throwing petrol bombs at each other by lunch time.

Well I dont know about that I think it comes down to bigotry. There are already politcal differences between loyalists and republicans they dont nee religion to discrimante against people.

steddyeddy

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Make it mandatory.
Scrap the CCMS and put community quotas on all schools.
If the kids don't mix together in schools, then they'll keep believing their forefathers' scare stories about 'themmuns', and keep living in self-selecting ghettos where they never meet, and will hence be able to keep the hate alive.
Short-circuit the hate by getting at the kids early, whether the parents want it or not.

We agree entirley cavehill. If parents want irational hate to continue they shouldnt get a choice in the matter. These sort of people have no right to push sectarianisim on their children.

RMD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Make it mandatory.
Scrap the CCMS and put community quotas on all schools.
If the kids don't mix together in schools, then they'll keep believing their forefathers' scare stories about 'themmuns', and keep living in self-selecting ghettos where they never meet, and will hence be able to keep the hate alive.
Short-circuit the hate by getting at the kids early, whether the parents want it or not.

I agree with you completely but it wont be as simple as just doing it. This is Northern Ireland we're talking about after all, rational mindsets and common sense isn't entirely prevalent unfortunately.

steddyeddy

RMD wrote: »

I agree with you completely but it wont be as simple as just doing it. This is Northern Ireland we're talking about after all, rational mindsets and common sense isn't entirely prevalent unfortunately.

I think those of a irational mindset are in the minority in the north and the majority want trelicts of the past to end. Those who want to push their hate on their children shouldnt be allowed to facilitate their children continuing a religious divide.

Cavehill Red

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Most of the cross community work will be superficial if people don't develop real friendships across the divide

This.

Any chance of bigotry taking hold of me died the minute I went into a classroom and met hot Protestant chicks in short skirts.

steddyeddy

Cavehill Red wrote: »

This.

Any chance of bigotry taking hold of me died the minute I went into a classroom and met hot Protestant chicks in short skirts.

Ha ha me too!!

Cavehill Red

RMD wrote: »

I agree with you completely but it wont be as simple as just doing it. This is Northern Ireland we're talking about after all, rational mindsets and common sense isn't entirely prevalent unfortunately.

Nor is irrationality, any more than in any other place. But people are trapped in the architecture of the past - they live among their own community and educate their children likewise, so it's only when people hit the workplace as adults, with their opinions largely formed, that they mix in a serious way.
You can't make people move homes, so I suggest making all schools multicommunity, as they did to end racial segregation of schools in America in the Sixties and Seventies.
Then the kids will encounter each other at an early age, and a generation on there won't be many single community ghettos because people will be intermarrying in much greater numbers.

Bottle_of_Smoke

In the last life & times survey 44% of Catholics said they would "would mind" or "would mind a lot" if a close relative married someone from a different religion. 66% of Protestants said the same thing. Before people start jumping on that as evidence Protestants are more sectarian please realise its not my point and both figures are alarmingly high in a society where the religious divide is split roughly along a 45/55 ratio

In practice this means many parents care more about their children keeping their religion than the whole country being non-sectarian so will object to any dilution of religion in school.

This was highlighted when Richard Dawkins visited belfast a while back - spoke to a catholic representative who denied religion had an affect on community relations. When pressed he pulls the "human rights of parents to educate their children how they wish" card. Couldn't make it up like.

steddyeddy

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

In the last life & times survey 43% of Catholics said they wouldn't like it if their kids converted for marriage. 66% of Protestants said the same thing. Before people start jumping on that as evidence Protestants are more sectarian please realise its not my point and both figures are alarmingly high in a society where the religious divide is split roughly along a 45/55 ratio

In practice this means many parents care more about their children keeping their religion than the whole country being non-sectarian so will object to any dilution of religion in school.

This was highlighted when Richard Dawkins visited belfast a while back - spoke to a catholic representative who denied religion had an affect on community relations. When pressed he pulls the "human rights of parents to educate their children how they wish" card. Couldn't make it up like.

I remember dawkins saying that and I couldnt beleive my ears to the repsonses he was getting! On a previous show he was talking to someone about the holy cross dispute who denied children had stones thrown at the because of religion. These sort of people cant handle religion their causing tremendous suffering in communties so the choice shouldnt be theirs.

RMD

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I support it completely. I've experienced these mixed schools first hand on exchanges and each and everyone 1 of the pupils had no problem with the other's beliefs or views, for ones who could find it contentious it just wasn't discussed and they put aside, like any groups of friends where a few might be very divided on the idea. But it worked brilliantly as a whole.

I'd love to see it happening, but it's not as simple as just forcing schools to "desegregate", when desegregation occurred in America there were cases where the federal troops needed to be called in to protect the new students. Obviously this wouldn't happen on the same scale as times have change, but we have to remember less than 10 years ago the Holy Cross dispute took place which involved hundreds of PSNI officers and members of the BA to get the kids and parents to school, which on the way were attacked with fireworks, various missiles and bombs.

Cavehill Red

RMD wrote: »

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I support it completely. I've experienced these mixed schools first hand on exchanges and each and everyone 1 of the pupils had no problem with the other's beliefs or views, for ones who could find it contentious it just wasn't discussed and they put aside, like any groups of friends where a few might be very divided on the idea. But it worked brilliantly as a whole.

I'd love to see it happening, but it's not as simple as just forcing schools to "desegregate", when desegregation occurred in America there were cases where the federal troops needed to be called in to protect the new students. Obviously this wouldn't happen on the same scale as times have change, but we have to remember less than 10 years ago the Holy Cross dispute took place which involved hundreds of PSNI officers and members of the BA to get the kids and parents to school, which on the way were attacked with fireworks, various missiles and bombs.

Had the police intervened to arrest the adults throwing the fireworks and piss a lot earlier, then Holy Cross would never have escalated the way it did.
We have laws against spitting on the street. It doesn't stop people doing it entirely, but just because there's a law, most people comply without incident. Ditto with the smoking ban.
Similarly, if you just scrapped the CCMS and introduced community quotas, there'd be plenty of bitching and moaning, but I'd be highly confident that there'd be precious little trouble once the system was up and running.
I attended a Protestant school as a Catholic the day after the Enniskillen bombing. To say that tensions were running high wouldn't be the half of it. Furthermore, as the only attendee at the school from a Republican area, there was definitely more than a few dirty looks thrown my way.
I'll forever be thankful to the teacher who copped what was happening and made a speech about how neither I personally nor my community in general should be held responsible for the murderous activities of a few psychopaths.
So yes, introducing a mandatory religion-free education system wouldn't be without incident. But ultimately common sense will prevail.

steddyeddy

RMD wrote: »

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I support it completely. I've experienced these mixed schools first hand on exchanges and each and everyone 1 of the pupils had no problem with the other's beliefs or views, for ones who could find it contentious it just wasn't discussed and they put aside, like any groups of friends where a few might be very divided on the idea. But it worked brilliantly as a whole.

I'd love to see it happening, but it's not as simple as just forcing schools to "desegregate", when desegregation occurred in America there were cases where the federal troops needed to be called in to protect the new students. Obviously this wouldn't happen on the same scale as times have change, but we have to remember less than 10 years ago the Holy Cross dispute took place which involved hundreds of PSNI officers and members of the BA to get the kids and parents to school, which on the way were attacked with fireworks, various missiles and bombs.

Rmd the holy cross dispute reminded me of old pictures of white supremacests protesting against mixed shcools in america. They threw stones at kids in both cases. These people are an example of why the kids should not be exposed to these bigots. They shouldnt be listened to. Bring in the psni if need be. No kids future should be jeapordised because of sectarianism.

RMD

steddyeddy wrote: »

Rmd the holy cross dispute reminded me of old pictures of white supremacests protesting against mixed shcools in america. They threw stones at kids in both cases. These people are an example of why the kids should not be exposed to these bigots. They shouldnt be listened to. Bring in the psni if need be. No kids future should be jeapordised because of sectarianism.

In a perfect world we could allocate a large location for all sectarian bigots / paramilitaries to go and fight with each other alone and not impact in anyway on the civilized but sadly that's never going to happen.

If they do desegregate schools, I'd love to see the PSNI arrest anyone on the spot who decides to riot or spend their day shouting intolerant bollox at innocent kids and give them a hefty sentence. If they do go through with desegregation, they should combine it with a mandatory 1 year jail followed with 2 on license sentence for "rioting" as a result. I wonder how many will take to the streets then.

steddyeddy

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Had the police intervened to arrest the adults throwing the fireworks and piss a lot earlier, then Holy Cross would never have escalated the way it did.
We have laws against spitting on the street. It doesn't stop people doing it entirely, but just because there's a law, most people comply without incident. Ditto with the smoking ban.
Similarly, if you just scrapped the CCMS and introduced community quotas, there'd be plenty of bitching and moaning, but I'd be highly confident that there'd be precious little trouble once the system was up and running.
I attended a Protestant school as a Catholic the day after the Enniskillen bombing. To say that tensions were running high wouldn't be the half of it. Furthermore, as the only attendee at the school from a Republican area, there was definitely more than a few dirty looks thrown my way.
I'll forever be thankful to the teacher who copped what was happening and made a speech about how neither I personally nor my community in general should be held responsible for the murderous activities of a few psychopaths.
So yes, introducing a mandatory religion-free education system wouldn't be without incident. But ultimately common sense will prevail.

Good post. You have shown that mixed schools can work there is no reason for anything else. Imagine how much support sectarian groups would have if the new generation were as enlightend as you.

steddyeddy

RMD wrote: »

In a perfect world we could allocate a large location for all sectarian bigots / paramilitaries to go and fight with each other alone and not impact in anyway on the civilized but sadly that's never going to happen.

If they do desegregate schools, I'd love to see the PSNI arrest anyone on the spot who decides to riot or spend their day shouting intolerant bollox at innocent kids and give them a hefty sentence. If they do go through with desegregation, they should combine it with a mandatory 1 year jail followed with 2 on license sentence for "rioting" as a result. I wonder how many will take to the streets then.

Its not a perfect world but desegregation in north would go a step in the right direction.

KeithAFC

Can't say i care too much about Jesus. More William Of Orange than anything. Most of us didn't give a toss about Jesus when growing up or learn about the bible.

Cavehill Red

RMD wrote: »

In a perfect world we could allocate a large location for all sectarian bigots / paramilitaries to go and fight with each other alone and not impact in anyway on the civilized but sadly that's never going to happen.

If they do desegregate schools, I'd love to see the PSNI arrest anyone on the spot who decides to riot or spend their day shouting intolerant bollox at innocent kids and give them a hefty sentence. If they do go through with desegregation, they should combine it with a mandatory 1 year jail followed with 2 on license sentence for "rioting" as a result. I wonder how many will take to the streets then.

Given the nature of the bulk of the no-marks who attend such disturbances, it might be even more productive to cancel welfare benefits and social housing entitlements of anyone guilty of such an offence.
Let's see how many spew bile at schoolkids when their dole and disability vanish overnight. We might find that a lot of these 'community activists' are suddenly busy with finding a fecking job instead.

Jaap

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Had the police intervened to arrest the adults throwing the fireworks and piss a lot earlier, then Holy Cross would never have escalated the way it did.

I think the fact that many parents insisted on bringing their children through a tunnel of police officers and protesters didn't help matters.
I know if I was a parent back then I would have stayed at home with my child until talks had eased the situation.
It was photographers' field day!

Cavehill Red

Jaap wrote: »

I think the fact that many parents insisted on bringing their children through a tunnel of police officers and protesters didn't help matters.
I know if I was a parent back then I would have stayed at home with my child until talks had eased the situation.
It was photograhers' field day!

That's an attempt to blame the victims. It's not a legitimate argument and isn't worthy of you.

steddyeddy

Jaap wrote: »

I think the fact that many parents insisted on bringing their children through a tunnel of police officers and protesters didn't help matters.
I know if I was a parent back then I would have stayed at home with my child until talks had eased the situation.
It was photographers' field day!

You think the parents of the kids were the problem? Were the parents of african american children the problem in the protests of the white supremacists in america?

RMD

Jaap wrote: »

I think the fact that many parents insisted on bringing their children through a tunnel of police officers and protesters didn't help matters.
I know if I was a parent back then I would have stayed at home with my child until talks had eased the situation.
It was photographers' field day!

Where else could they have walked from? The tunnel of PSNI officers were there solely to protect them and provide the safest route to the school.

Jaap

Cavehill Red wrote: »

That's an attempt to blame the victims. It's not a legitimate argument and isn't worthy of you.

I'm not blaming the victims...I am just saying the situation was made a lot worse by parents pulling crying children through that situation.
A bad parenting call.

Jaap

RMD wrote: »

Where else could they have walked from? The tunnel of PSNI officers were there solely to protect them and provide the safest route to the school.

I would not take my children through a possible riot zone...would you?

steddyeddy

Jaap wrote: »

I would not take my children through a possible riot zone...would you?

Would you base your life around how bigots wanted you to do it?

Jaap

steddyeddy wrote: »

Would you base your life around how bigots wanted you to do it?

Not my own life...but I would not endanger the wellbeing of a child to prove a point...or get a good photograph for the papers.

steddyeddy

Jaap wrote: »

Not my own life...but I would not endanger the wellbeing of a child to prove a point...or get a good photograph for the papers.

Youd agree that the bigots throwing stones at kids were the problem.

Cavehill Red

Jaap wrote: »

I'm not blaming the victims...I am just saying the situation was made a lot worse by parents pulling crying children through that situation.
A bad parenting call.

You're not blaming the victims, but you're saying they made the situation worse?
So, you'd be ... blaming them for making it worse?
Logic fail.
Let's be very clear before this thread gets derailed by a rehash of Holy Cross - if people hadn't been throwing fireworks and piss at kids, there would have been no problem, as indeed there is no problem today.
People bringing kids to school was not the problem - kids go to that school today without incident. The problem was the thugs throwing piss and fireworks at toddlers. End of.

steddyeddy

As I say by that logic the african american kids parents bringing them to school during protests must have been at fault by that logic.

KeithAFC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Remember what's referred to as sectarianism goes further in ni than religion. It is actually closer to racism because the Protestant community/Catholic community are semi ethnic groups - descended from planters/natives.

I think religion should be taken out of school. School is for learning church is for religion.

Then the catchment areas for schools should be done up so they have similar numbers of each community in each school. not possible in every area but it would be in the cities where the problems are arising.

It won't have immediate effects but if its not done we'll be having this same conversation in 30 years time. Most of the cross community work will be superficial if people don't develop real friendships across the divide

For a lot of loyalist kids, it would be school at 9AM to 3 PM, home, practice on a drum pad or the flute, a bit of football, then off to practice at around 7:30 PM to like 9PM. Home, then off to bed and repeat. Doesn't matter what school they go to.

Jaap

steddyeddy wrote: »

Youd agree that the bigots throwing stones at kids were the problem.

There were plenty of bigots on both sides up that Ardoyne Road...it is after all an interface.
I don't think the protesters from Glenburn and Hesketh were out to injure the kids...in fact I don't think any kids were injured. I think the children were more traumatised by their parents insisting on bringing them to school. The mental scars were a lot worse.

Cavehill Red

KeithAFC wrote: »

For a lot of loyalist kids, it would be school at 9AM to 3 PM, home, practice on a drum pad or the flute, a bit of football, then off to practice at around 7:30 PM to like 9PM. Home, then off to bed and repeat. Doesn't matter what school they go to.

Which is fine (though we'd probably disagree on what constitutes 'a lot', given that only a tiny proportion of kids are in flute bands.)
It's not the flute playing or the football that causes any trouble. It's the associated sectarianism and bigotry that pervades those kids from their elders on both sides of the divide.
It would be much harder for kids to internalise that hatred if it was factually contradicted between 9am and 3pm by their having classmates from the other community.

Cavehill Red

Jaap wrote: »

There were plenty of bigots on both sides up that Ardoyne Road...it is after all an interface.
I don't think the protesters from Glenburn and Hesketh were out to injure the kids...in fact I don't think any kids were injured. I think the children were more traumatised by their parents insisting on bringing them to school. The mental scars were a lot worse.

No doubt, being a professional child psychiatrist at the Mater hospital, you personally diagnosed all those children at the time?
I would invite you to explain to me how throwing lit fireworks at toddlers indicates intent NOT to harm children, except that would be further dragging the thread off-topic and engaging with what appears to be a deliberate attempt to derail the thread.

Jaap

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You're not blaming the victims, but you're saying they made the situation worse?
So, you'd be ... blaming them for making it worse?
Logic fail.
Let's be very clear before this thread gets derailed by a rehash of Holy Cross - if people hadn't been throwing fireworks and piss at kids, there would have been no problem, as indeed there is no problem today.
People bringing kids to school was not the problem - kids go to that school today without incident. The problem was the thugs throwing piss and fireworks at toddlers. End of.

Do we know what caused the protests by the people of Glenburn and Hesketh?
I am just saying it was a field day for the media. I still don't understand how parents could subject their children to that situation.

Jaap

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No doubt, being a professional child psychiatrist at the Mater hospital, you personally diagnosed all those children at the time?
I would invite you to explain to me how throwing lit fireworks at toddlers indicates intent NOT to harm children, except that would be further dragging the thread off-topic and engaging with what appears to be trolling to me.

I am no expert in mental issues with children...but I do know that the children dragged along the tunnel of policemen will remember the incident...linked to the subject of this thread could this harrowing memory impact their opinion of protestants...who attempted to stop them going to school?
Do you know if any children were physically hurt?

Cavehill Red

Jaap wrote: »

Do we know what caused the protests by the people of Glenburn and Hesketh?
I am just saying it was a field day for the media. I still don't understand how parents could subject their children to that situation.

It actually doesn't matter why thugs thought it was a good idea to shower toddlers in their piss. And it doesn't matter that the media turned up to film them doing it. What mattered is that any legitimate issue their community claimed to have was completely undermined by them intimidating and threatening toddlers.
If you want to get into it further, I'd suggest opening a thread on the topic or resurrecting one of the twenty billion threads on it already. Stop derailing this one.

steddyeddy

Jaap wrote: »

There were plenty of bigots on both sides up that Ardoyne Road...it is after all an interface.
I don't think the protesters from Glenburn and Hesketh were out to injure the kids...in fact I don't think any kids were injured. I think the children were more traumatised by their parents insisting on bringing them to school. The mental scars were a lot worse.

In 2003 Loyalists placed a pipe bomb at the entrance of the school, it was defused and there were no injuries.

What sort of ridiculous statement is it to say that the parents of kids bringing them to school were more the cause of mental abuse than a bunch of people shouting sectarian comments at the kids!

steddyeddy

Some of the perverse ideas that have come up in this thread are evidence that some peoples irrationality shouldnt come any where near children.

steddyeddy

Jaap wrote: »

I didn't originally bring the Holy Cross issue, but am I not allowed to comment on it. You seem to like to keep the debate going on it as well.
Was the threat aimed at the toddlers...or the Ardoyne community...who I think the protestant people of Glenburn and Hesketh accused of intimidating them...using the school run to gather intelligence...all allegations which I'm sure no one knows is true.

Did the protesters try to intimidate the kids?

Cavehill Red

Jaap wrote: »

I didn't originally bring the Holy Cross issue, but am I not allowed to comment on it. You seem to like to keep the debate going on it as well.
Was the threat aimed at the toddlers...or the Ardoyne community...who I think the protestant people of Glenburn and Hesketh accused of intimidating them...using the school run to gather intelligence...all allegations which I'm sure no one knows is true.

This thread is not about Holy Cross. The OP is about how changing the education system in the North today could assist in ending sectarianism.
The facts of Holy Cross are well known and well documented and google is your friend in that regard. Re the origin of the protest, I suggest you google 'Trevor Kell Murder' and re the ongoing psychological damage caused to the children by the thugs, you could google Dr Michael Tan's comments.
Your attempts to slur child victims of sectarian thugs who planted blast bombs along their walk to school is pathetic. Really pathetic.

nesf

Can we bring this back on topic please.

Jaap

steddyeddy wrote: »

In 2003 Loyalists placed a pipe bomb at the entrance of the school, it was defused and there were no injuries.

What sort of ridiculous statement is it to say that the parents of kids bringing them to school were more the cause of mental abuse than a bunch of people shouting sectarian comments at the kids!

It was not just bringing them to school...it was knowingly bringing them through a protest.
I think the sectarian comments (which I don't agree with) were made to the parents after they returned from dropping off their children...which supports my idea that it was not the kids the protesters had an issue with, but the parents...or some of them.

Jaap

The comment made earlier in the thread about integration during the school years...would help a great deal.
However...the mixing of the parents of these children at integrated schools would need to be considered.
There is no point in Billy mixing with Seamus in school then Billy going home to a father who sees Neil Lennon on the TV and says a sectarian comment!
Parents have more impact on their children regarding values than schools.

steddyeddy

The next generation in the north need education contrary to the idea that religions need to be split. I dont think certain elements cant handle another reason to hate another group. There needs to be an end to mixed schools full stop in the north. segregation by relgion led to much of the evil seen during the holy cross dispute.