Social mobility in Ireland

steddyeddy

Do you think ireland is a good country To better your lot? What I mean is america has this reputation (rightly or wrongly) for people to be able to rise out of the circumstances and class they were born into. Can we say the same about ireland or are we generally stuck in the class were born into?

I dont mean can people who dont want to work hard or anything I mean is there oppertunities for people in ireland who work hard or study hard to rise out of their circumstances? Have you tried to better your lot in ireland?

pragmatic1

There is social mobility in Ireland but its much harder than it is in the US. However, with the exception of cities, I dont think we really have a class structure in Ireland.

Celly Smunt

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you think ireland is a good country To better your lot? What I mean is america has this reputation (rightly or wrongly) for people to be able to rise out of the circumstances and class they were born into. Can we say the same about ireland or are we generally stuck in the class were born into?

I dont mean can people who dont want to work hard or anything I mean is there oppertunities for people in ireland who work hard or study hard to rise out of their circumstances? Have you tried to better your lot in ireland?

the best you can do is get the fúck out

Kevin Duffy

Do we have a particular class structure in Ireland to be immobilised by? Or just some random snobbery and begrudgery based entirely on money?

Celly Smunt

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Do we have a particular class structure in Ireland to be immobilised by? Or just some random snobbery and begrudgery based entirely on money?

i don't think it's talked of much but we do,we definitely do

Kevin Duffy

pmcmahon wrote: »

i don't think it's talked of much but we do,we definitely do

Could you elaborate?

steddyeddy

pmcmahon wrote: »

the best you can do is get the fúck out

I did when I was young If I didnt I often wonder would I have been stuck in the same crap circumstances I was born into.

steddyeddy

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Could you elaborate?

I would agree.

Celly Smunt

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Could you elaborate?

maybe later,but look about the next time your out,the middle class credit card generation and the labourer.

steddyeddy

pmcmahon wrote: »

maybe later,but look about the next time your out,the middle class credit card generation and the labourer.

Yea I would have thought it was obvious!

Kevin Duffy

pmcmahon wrote: »

i don't think it's talked of much but we do,we definitely do

steddyeddy wrote: »

I would agree.

pmcmahon wrote: »

maybe later,but look about the next time your out,the middle class credit card generation and the labourer.

Jaysis, the standard of debate leaves something to be desired.

katiebelle

Of course there is. Myself and my siblings grew up on a very poor little estate with hardworking but very poor parents. It was not possible for any of us kids to attend university directly after school but all of us kids ( 7 of us) went on to get degrees and a few of us have masters degrees and one has a phd. All have REALLY good jobs , I did too before I became ill. My mother made sure we spoke well and we were encouraged to strive for everything we wanted in life. We all live in really nice areas now too but none of us are exactly obsessed with wealth and things. We are careful with money.

Celly Smunt

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Jaysis, the standard of debate leaves something to be desired.

maybe later,i'm ballzzed

My name is URL

pmcmahon wrote: »

maybe later,but look about the next time your out,the middle class credit card generation and the labourer.

And if the labourer works hard enough he too can have a credit card.. I don't think having a credit card or not is the mark of a class divide tbh!

As for mobility, I'm surprised the question needs to be asked in this day and age. Plenty of people who come from less-than-well-off backgrounds end up doing really well for themselves, so there's no doubt that it's possible for someone to 'rise out of the circumstances and class they were born into'.. whether or not they decide to work hard enough to achieve that is another story.

Celly Smunt

My name is URL wrote: »

And if the labourer works hard enough he too can have a credit card.. I don't think having a credit card or not is the mark of a class divide tbh!

i didn't literally mean anybody with a credit card,what i mean is there are people who are bound to a working class job,small wage for a hard work,live in a not too good area etc etc and there are others flying about in audi's and bmw's,in a middle management job having holiday's several times a year.That's class divide

steddyeddy

katiebelle wrote: »

Of course there is. Myself and my siblings grew up on a very poor little estate with hardworking but very poor parents. It was not possible for any of us kids to attend university directly after school but all of us kids ( 7 of us) went on to get degrees and a few of us have masters degrees and one has a phd. All have REALLY good jobs , I did too before I became ill. My mother made sure we spoke well and we were encouraged to strive for everything we wanted in life. We all live in really nice areas now too but none of us are exactly obsessed with wealth and things. We are careful with money.

Well thats a great example and Im happy to hear it. I hadnt got parents who supported me and I left home from a really early age but I was alwys told I wouldnt make it here withouth parental support and Im wondering were they right.

The King of Moo

We don't have as much social mobility as we used to.
In terms of institutions, we have the potential for a great deal of mobility. It's much easier for anybody to get a college degree, for example, because of the amount of free education one can get here, than in other countries.
But there's always been a class system in this country, it just didn't use to be as prominent as it is in other countries, and seems to have really become very visible since the Celtic Tiger years.
You hear so many more people being openly snobbish now, and that reinforces class stereotypes: the rich look down on others to a greater degree, and the poor retreat into stereotypes and see things like a free education as uncool/snobby and don't achieve the potential they have to progress in education.
Obviously this isn't true of all people here. There are still many down-to-earth rich people, and many people from deprived circumstances who don't let themselves get stuck into the idea that they can't/shouldn't progress beyond that. However there seems to be fewer people like this, and we seem to be heading to a more polarised, class-conscious society like in Britain.

Just look at the way some people on Boards talk about "scumbags," focussing on the way they dress/speak, rather than their actions.

Kevin Duffy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea I would have thought it was obvious!

Oh, I take it back, Wittgenstien himself couldn't have put it better.

Jaysis, it's your thread and that's the best you can come up with?

Your question is predicated on a class structure being extant in order for the question of mobility to arise. I'm asking is there a class structure. So far, the best you can do is to say "it's obvious" in support of another poster who says there are labourers and a "middle-class" who have credit cards. Is that it?

I would say in Ireland we have a disparity in access to medicine, education, good housing and a few other financial markers, but that disparity manifests as an underclass of those in poverty and everyone else. Above a certain household income level, those problems largely disappear, or as at the moment, are equally probelmatic across the board owing to financial problems at all levels. I think that's far from a class structure. We don't have other trappings of social class-strtucture, such as hereditary titles, we have equality before the law (which may be affected by money, but not by social position).

steddyeddy

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Oh, I take it back, Wittgenstien himself couldn't have put it better.

Jaysis, it's your thread and that's the best you can come up with?

Your question is predicated on a class structure being extant in order for the question of mobility to arise. I'm asking is there a class structure. So far, the best you can do is to say "it's obvious" in support of another poster who says there are labourers and a "middle-class" who have credit cards. Is that it?

I would say in Ireland we have a disparity in access to medicine, education, good housing and a few other financial markers, but that disparity manifests as an underclass of those in poverty and everyone else. Above a certain household income level, those problems largely disappear, or as at the moment, are equally probelmatic across the board owing to financial problems at all levels. I think that's far from a class structure. We don't have other trappings of social class-strtucture, such as hereditary titles, we have equality before the law (which may be affected by money, but not by social position).

Sorry kd I should have explained that! I do think there is huge disparities towards education in ireland and combined with nepotisim their is a class of people who are in certain positions which make it very difficult for anyone else to break through. The civil service and public sector can be an example of that.

steddyeddy

The King of Moo wrote: »

We don't have as much social mobility as we used to.
In terms of institutions, we have the potential for a great deal of mobility. It's much easier for anybody to get a college degree, for example, because of the amount of free education one can get here, than in other countries.
But there's always been a class system in this country, it just didn't use to be as prominent as it is in other countries, and seems to have really become very visible since the Celtic Tiger years.
You hear so many more people being openly snobbish now, and that reinforces class stereotypes: the rich look down on others to a greater degree, and the poor retreat into stereotypes and see things like a free education as uncool/snobby and don't achieve the potential they have to progress in education.
Obviously this isn't true of all people here. There are still many down-to-earth rich people, and many people from deprived circumstances who don't let themselves get stuck into the idea that they can't/shouldn't progress beyond that. However there seems to be fewer people like this, and we seem to be heading to a more polarised, class-conscious society like in Britain.

Just look at the way some people on Boards talk about "scumbags," focussing on the way they dress/speak, rather than their actions.

Well I have noticed some people on boards preech from a certain soapbox about who they consider scumbags I have encountered that in real life.

steddyeddy

To add to my arguement I come from a rough area although now I am educated I found that in america they were more accepting of people from rough areas who bettered themselves than people in ireland are towards people who grew up in certain areas, even if they better themselves.

Kevin Duffy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry kd I should have explained that! I do think there is huge disparities towards education in ireland and combined with nepotisim their is a class of people who are in certain positions which make it very difficult for anyone else to break through. The civil service and public sector can be an example of that.

Now I'd be interested to hear how you make that out to be a barrier to social mobility? Not you general impression of the PS/CS, but specifically in answer to your own question of social mobility.

steddyeddy

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Now I'd be interested to hear how you make that out to be a barrier to social mobility? Not you general impression of the PS/CS, but specifically in answer to your own question of social mobility.

I shouldnt have said social mobility I meant to link it to a sentence about inherited positions which are a problem in ireland.

Kevin Duffy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I shouldnt have said social mobility I meant to link it to a sentence about inherited positions which are a problem in ireland.

Well social mobility is what your thread is about.

What do you imagine are the inherited positions in the Irish civil and public service?

The King of Moo

katiebelle wrote: »

Of course there is. Myself and my siblings grew up on a very poor little estate with hardworking but very poor parents. It was not possible for any of us kids to attend university directly after school but all of us kids ( 7 of us) went on to get degrees and a few of us have masters degrees and one has a phd. All have REALLY good jobs , I did too before I became ill. My mother made sure we spoke well and we were encouraged to strive for everything we wanted in life. We all live in really nice areas now too but none of us are exactly obsessed with wealth and things. We are careful with money.

steddyeddy wrote: »

To add to my arguement I come from a rough area although now I am educated I found that in america they were more accepting of people from rough areas who bettered themselves than people in ireland are towards people who grew up in certain areas, even if they better themselves.

I'd be in a similar position myself, not dirt poor, but definitely from a working-class background, and I was aware as a kid that other kids had lots more money than we did.
But my parents always made sure we knew we could achieve whatever we wanted to, and all my siblings have gone on to varied, good jobs.
I also think that back in the 80s there just wasn't as much class consciousness as there is now, and less prejudice. I think we still have more social mobility than Britain, but people do seem to more snobbish now, and I think that down the line that's going to affect social mobility.

steddyeddy

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Well social mobility is what your thread is about.

What do you imagine are the inherited positions in the Irish civil and public service?

I will clarify I class inheritence as someone who gets a job based on someone their related to and not nessacerily their skill set.

Mike 1972

The King of Moo wrote: »

But there's always been a class system in this country.

A lot of people in Ireland like to kid themselves otherwise perhaps because they percieve the class system as a British concept ?

steddyeddy

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'd be in a similar position myself, not dirt poor, but definitely from a working-class background, and I was aware as a kid that other kids had lots more money than we did.
But my parents always made sure we knew we could achieve whatever we wanted to, and all my siblings have gone on to varied, good jobs.
I also think that back in the 80s there just wasn't as much class consciousness as there is now, and less prejudice. I think we still have more social mobility than Britain, but people do seem to more snobbish now, and I think that down the line that's going to affect social mobility.

I remmeber even in school I had teachers who never encouraged us or made us feel we could achieve anything if we werent from good areas. Even today I have friends from the area who are trying to return to education but are finding it hard to do so!

katiebelle

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well thats a great example and Im happy to hear it. I hadnt got parents who supported me and I left home from a really early age but I was alwys told I wouldnt make it here withouth parental support and Im wondering were they right.

Oh let me clarify something. Our parents support was not financial as they were not in a position to help us out. We all did it ourselves while working and using credit union loans My sister and I did our first degrees together same subjects and I was working a night shift at the time. We took it in turns to get notes so that both of us did not have to attend every day. I remember it was a time when I was surviving on 3 hours sleep in total every day and I had young kids and a mortgage. It was all worth it though and its never too late to go back to study. A friend started in Mary I in limerick last year and there are mature students there who left school after primary school. You can always go back.

steddyeddy

Mike 1972 wrote: »

A lot of people in Ireland like to kid themselves otherwise perhaps because they percieve the class system as a British concept ?

There is different perceptions on class based on the country. Indeed just because we havent the same system of class as the british doesnt mean we havent a class system and each class has their perceived notions about the other classes.

steddyeddy

katiebelle wrote: »

Oh let me clarify something. Our parents support was not financial as they were not in a position to help us out. We all did it ourselves while working and using credit union loans My sister and I did our first degrees together same subjects and I was working a night shift at the time. We took it in turns to get notes so that both of us did not have to attend every day. I remember it was a time when I was surviving on 3 hours sleep in total every day and I had young kids and a mortgage. It was all worth it though and its never too late to go back to study. A friend started in Mary I in limerick last year and there are mature students there who left school after primary school. You can always go back.

I didnt think you did recive financial support you made it clear your parent were poor and hard working I apologise and commend you on the hard work you have put in! It takes real characther to do that!

The King of Moo

steddyeddy wrote: »

There is different perceptions on class based on the country. Indeed just because we havent the same system of class as the british doesnt mean we havent a class system and each class has their perceived notions about the other classes.

That's true, our system is much more based on money, where in Britian it's more about breeding and behaviour.
I know many people from fairly poor backgrounds who make it big and become snobs themselves, but in Britiain the nouveau riche are looked down upon much more than here, no matter how rich they get.

mikemac

I work for a living therefore I am working class.
Doesn't matter if I'm a tradesman or accountant or laborer.
Just my opinion

Anyway, a question. Where do farmers fit in?
When I was in college and registered I had to give my parents background and farming was in a section all of its own.
Are they laborers? Self employed businessmen? Landlords if they lease land?
They can be all of these at the same time so how would even begin to classify, shows what a mess the class systems can be

Kevin Duffy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I will clarify I class inheritence as someone who gets a job based on someone their related to and not nessacerily their skill set.

So nepoptism, rather than inheritence. Still leaves the question, what positions or general are of the CS/PS do you imagine that's happening in?

Kevin Duffy

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's true, our system is much more based on money, where in Britian it's more about breeding and behaviour.
I know many people from fairly poor backgrounds who make it big and become snobs themselves, but in Britiain the nouveau riche are looked down upon much more than here, no matter how rich they get.

Which, in part, is why I would argue we don't have a class system. There arer disparities in finance, but that's not the same as class.

mikemac

The King of Moo wrote: »

I also think that back in the 80s there just wasn't as much class consciousness as there is now, and less prejudice.

When I was in school and unemployment was high in the 80's our teachers would tell us about jobseekers using a friends address if their own address was perceived as dodgy.
There was a thread in work forum last week on this and a poster was talking about this practice in the 80's.

I've not heard of this happening anymore. Maybe it does but I've held interviews and read CV's in work and we don't judge addresses.

pragmatic1

Mike 1972 wrote: »

A lot of people in Ireland like to kid themselves otherwise perhaps because they percieve the class system as a British concept ?

Outside of Duiblin, Cork and Limerick I dont think there is one. Where I'm from millionaires, paupers and everything in between all socialise together.

steddyeddy

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

So nepoptism, rather than inheritence. Still leaves the question, what positions or general are of the CS/PS do you imagine that's happening in?

Your not aware of neoptisim in the civil service or public services? If you answer me honestly Ill tell you which positions I have observed it in.

Thoie

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's true, our system is much more based on money, where in Britian it's more about breeding and behaviour.
I know many people from fairly poor backgrounds who make it big and become snobs themselves, but in Britiain the nouveau riche are looked down upon much more than here, no matter how rich they get.

I'd have said the complete opposite, and would consider behaviour and manners (not sure which definition of breeding you're using, so switched it to manners) as far better indicators of class in Ireland than money. I'd have thought we look down on the nouveau riche here as well.

Purely from books/TV/films, my impression is that the American class system is based on wealth, but wouldn't have said that about Ireland.

steddyeddy

mikemac wrote: »

When I was in school and unemployment was high in the 80's our teachers would tell us about jobseekers using a friends address if their own address was perceived as dodgy.
There was a thread in work forum last week on this and a poster was talking about this practice in the 80's.

I've not heard of this happening anymore. Maybe it does but I've held interviews and read CV's in work and we don't judge addresses.

I have heard many instances where that happend. We had a nice principal at our school who let some guy from a "bad" address use his address in order to secure employment.

amacachi

pragmatic1 wrote: »

There is social mobility in Ireland but its much harder than it is in the US.

Odd, most everything I've read says that the US has near-enough the least social mobility in the developed world.

batistuta9

There's a lot of people in Ireland who like to think/believe they are of a higher class of society than they actually are, which i personally dont like

steddyeddy

batistuta9 wrote: »

There's a lot of people in Ireland who like to think/believe they are of a higher class of society than they actually are, which i personally dont like

Some people have the impression that money comes with free class.

batistuta9

steddyeddy wrote: »

Some people have the impression that money comes with free class.

quite a few id say, its the looking down at others that i dont like about it

Aurum

batistuta9 wrote: »

There's a lot of people in Ireland who like to think/believe they are of a higher class of society than they actually are, which i personally dont like

On what basis do you decide what class these people actually are or ought to be?

batistuta9

Aurum wrote: »

On what basis do you decide what class these people actually are or ought to be?

people that would be from working/lower middle class families then made money recently or some even married into money and the proceed to go around as they are better than others

steddyeddy

batistuta9 wrote: »

quite a few id say, its the looking down at others that i dont like about it

People who look down on others arent "class".

The King of Moo

mikemac wrote: »

When I was in school and unemployment was high in the 80's our teachers would tell us about jobseekers using a friends address if their own address was perceived as dodgy.
There was a thread in work forum last week on this and a poster was talking about this practice in the 80's.

I've not heard of this happening anymore. Maybe it does but I've held interviews and read CV's in work and we don't judge addresses.

It still happens quite a bit. Any of the people from the private estate near us I've met never say they're from the area the estate's in (which isn't a bad area at all). Instead they say they're from a village a fair few miles away where lots of rich people live. I even noticed the other day on google earth that they use an alternative spelling for the village (as the original name is taken for the actual village), and the name is put right in the middle of the estate so you're sure they know they "live there" .
I also know some people who live in Swords or on its outskirts who say they live in Malahide.
I don't know if we look down on certain addresses so much anymore, but lots of people definitely want to be seen to be living at posh addresses.

mikemac

From working in hotels part time in college, in my experience rich people were always nice and lovely to deal with. This included a few property developers who are now hated around Ireland.

It was the people who think they are rich "do you know what my house is worth?" who can be nasty.
As said, earning money does not include free class.

Just my experience that rich people can be lovely while people who think they are rich look down on others, others might have a different experience

The King of Moo wrote: »

I also know some people who live in Swords or on its outskirts who say they live in Malahide.

Ah do they live on Swords Rd, Malahide or Malahide Rd, Swords
It goes on alright for snobbery (is that even a word?) reasons but I don't think employers would reject you anymore over it where it may have happened in the 80's

sock puppet

steddyeddy wrote: »

Your not aware of neoptisim in the civil service or public services? If you answer me honestly Ill tell you which positions I have observed it in.

Where? From what I've heard to go for promotion in the civil service (at higher levels anyway) you have to sit a written exam first and then go through a pretty rigorous interview.

The King of Moo

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Which, in part, is why I would argue we don't have a class system. There arer disparities in finance, but that's not the same as class.

Certainly, it's not a class system in that sense. I'm thinking of a class system as basically any system where people look down on others for aribtrary reasons ("breeding", money).
Though I do think we've always had a small element of the traditional British style class system as well, but it's never been too pronounced.