Sectarianism in Ireland.

alex73

Ok, .. Please no trolling

Sectarianism in Ireland. Is said to be down to religion esp in the north.

But I have always found this hard to understand. I am Catholic,but have many protestant friends. All protestants I have met are decent honest people.

So is Sectarianism more down to a Political divide today, Rather than to a Religious one? Of course I know many Practising protestants in the north want to remain part of Uk. But Practising Protestants that I know are also some of the best people I know and far removed for all Sectarianism. They have their views, its part of their life, but 90% remaining part we share and get along. I would go so far as to say protestants are integral part of Ireland. (the various denominations) .


So what is Sectarianism today built on?


(Please this is a Christian religious thread... NO trollers, no united Ireland add ons.. no "this was our land" etc...etc.. only sensible dialogue please) If you have nothing to add from a Christian Religous point of view on Sectarianism DON't POST.

PDN

In Northern Ireland it's basically tribalism.

alex73

PDN wrote: »

In Northern Ireland it's basically tribalism.

So the tribes in the North today are basically the same thing?

I mean a practising Catholic (as I am) would never ever resort to violence against someone of opposite Faith.

Likewise many Practising Protestants I know (COI) would never dream of harming anyone else.

So the "Catholic" and "Protestant" tribes in the north are people who actually don't practice their faith?

strobe

PDN wrote: »

In Northern Ireland it's basically tribalism.

Agreed, the sectarian Catholics and Protestants in the North may as well be called the Blue team and the Yellow team, or the Wildcats and the Cowboys, or simply Us and Them, it would amount to the same thing. I don't think this is a purely Northern Ireland phenomenon though.

alex73 wrote: »

So the "Catholic" and "Protestant" tribes in the north are people who actually don't practice their faith?

I wouldn't say that. Many of them are very avid practitioners.

Manach

The difference between them and us is that we are them and they are us. ie that power-brokers within a society can easily stir divisions and sectarianism over the most minor of differences in groups as it is basic human nature to perceive divisions - as an example of the creation of Germany under Bismark, with wars against Austria etc, to build unity. I myself don't hold myself in any less guilable to this than the average person, but I believe that as a practicing Catholic that I'm aware of some of the not-so brilliant historical decisions that have occurred involving the Church, so I'd hope that it might make me at least pause to reflect.

AhSureTisGrand

I doubt anyone in Northern Ireland is murdered over transubstantiation. While religion isn't the root of the problem, it does give both sides a strong identity, and makes it easier to identify which side someone is from

Zombrex

alex73 wrote: »

I would go so far as to say protestants are integral part of Ireland. (the various denominations) .

How would you feel if a Protestant tried to force you to be CoI or CoE or another Protestant denomination?

Serious question btw, it is fine to say the Protestants you know are really nice, but this island has been marred with one group attempting to force the other group to follow their ways, including religious ways. If you believed it was a betrayal to your religion and your god to follow this you can see why many refused and fought violently against it.

gigino

Wicknight wrote: »

How would you feel if a Protestant tried to force you to be CoI or CoE or another Protestant denomination?

Good point. In living memory of many people in the country, the NeTemere rules imposed by the RCC on mixed marriages was very much the Catholic church trying to force the other party to be RC. Part of the reason why the Protestant population of the 26 counties declined in the early and mid 20th century ( something in the order of 250,000 to 100,000 I think ) , although I think its increasing slightly now.

In N. Ireland I think at least some of the Protestants there feel "under siege"...they sometimes talk of that anyway...with their percentage of the population being slowly eroded because of the "troubles", mixed marriages etc. To answer the OP's question, "So what is Sectarianism today built on?", its probably built on fear of the "other side" ?

Seaneh

this thread belongs in politics. The problem in Northern Ireland is due to national identity and not religion.

ISAW

Came across an interesting paper the other day on anti catholicism CoI Drumcree and how it relates to Ireland etc. Will get a copy of it from the library hopefully today if I can find the reference.

One part of it referred to the CoI famine commemoration in Mayo where the reading was Patrick Kavanagh's "The Great Hunger" Now I know it is a pseudonym for the famine but if you ever read the poem is it full of anti clerical and sexual repression references and isn't really about the famine at all. Hardly suitable for an ecumenical theme.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

One part of it referred to the CoI famine commemoration in Mayo where the reading was Patrick Kavanagh's "The Great Hunger" Now I know it is a pseudonym for the famine but if you ever read the poem is it full of anti clerical and sexual repression references and isn't really about the famine at all. .

I do not think many people are aware of, never mind affected by a poetry reading by that great well known Catholic poet, Kavanagh. The famine affected Mayo as much or more so than anywhere else in Ireland, and it was constantly drilled in to us at school. Maybe the history we all endured at school ( about the great heroes of 1916 and about British injustices like the famine ) was very one sided and to quote your phrase, being taught at school phrases like " burn everything British but their coal" was hardly suitable for an ecumenical theme. Sectarianism is ingrained in some of us here in the Republic - go to any pub when England is playing and you will see + hear people making comments about the "auld enemy", or go to a Wolfe Tones concert , or listen to bigots comments about the " black prods".
By contrast, in the UK if Ireland are playing, people there generally wish us well. They are not taught to hate us.
A poetry reading to a limited size audience in Mayo is just that ; it does really affect anyone. On the other hand, the RC ne-temere decreee and other factors ( intimidation etc ) did affect many people here in the Republic in early / mid 2oth century- the reduction of the Protestant people from approx 250,000 to 100,000 in a relatively short time. As I think Eoghan Harris said, or words to that effect, the greatest change in an ethnic group in the 20th century in Europe before the second world war.

gimmebroadband

My parents were a mixed marriage from the 60s. My mother is english, and was a Protestant, but didn't convert until many years later, of her own free will and is a better Catholic than most I know! Her siblings were also baptized protestants, but are agnostic/athiests for the most part!

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

I do not think many people are aware of, never mind affected by a poetry reading by that great well known Catholic poet, Kavanagh.
...
Sectarianism is ingrained in some of us here in the Republic ...
By contrast, in the UK if Ireland are playing, people there generally wish us well. ...
A poetry reading to a limited size audience in Mayo is just that ; it does really affect anyone.

I would disagree with these points given the context. You will have to go to a library to read the paper. Any library can get the book for you
The paper is Pilkingto Originally
Pilkington, L. 2002. Drumcree and the Celtic Tiger: the cultural legacy of anti-Catholicism in Ireland.
But the word Drumcree was changed to Religion in chapter 8 of :
http://www.plutobooks.com/display.asp?K=9780745318240&

Pilkington, Lionel. “Religion and the Celtic Tiger: The cultural Legacies of Anti-
Catholicism in Ireland.” Eds. Peadar Kirby, Luke Gibbons, and Michael Cronin.
Reinventing Ireland: Culture, Society and the Global Economy. London: Pluto Press,
2002. 124-139

Intersting also is http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/2262/24419/1/Nationalism%20and%20Multiculturalism%20Ch7.doc

who refers to a "Manichaean schema "

On the other hand, the RC ne-temere decreee and other factors ( intimidation etc ) did affect many people here in the Republic in early / mid 2oth century- the reduction of the Protestant people from approx 250,000 to 100,000 in a relatively short time. As I think Eoghan Harris said, or words to that effect, the greatest change in an ethnic group in the 20th century in Europe before the second world war.

Your anti catholic bias is showing itself again. Also, Harris has been involved with Official SF, workers Party, FG, PDs Fianna Fáil even the Unionists so he hardly has a "principled" outlook.

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

How would you feel if a Protestant tried to force you to be CoI or CoE or another Protestant denomination?

Serious question btw, it is fine to say the Protestants you know are really nice, but this island has been marred with one group attempting to force the other group to follow their ways, including religious ways. If you believed it was a betrayal to your religion and your god to follow this you can see why many refused and fought violently against it.

Indeed.
Please see my comment above about "Manichean schema".

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

You will have to go to a library to read the paper. Any library can get the book for you .

ISAW wrote: »

Your anti catholic bias is showing itself again. Also, Harris has been involved with Official SF, workers Party, FG, PDs Fianna Fáil even the Unionists so he hardly has a "principled" outlook.

If you disagree with a point or points I make, can you not make your point or show why you disagree without
(a) suggesting I read a book
(b) shooting the messenger ?

I did not know Harris was a member of the Unionist party ? Oh, you have something against him because he spoke to a few unionists or something ? Reminds me of the days in my fathers time when the Priest stood outside a funeral in a Protestant church ( here in the Republic) telling the RC neighbours ( who wanted to pay their respects) "not to go in ". Regarding my "anti catholic bias" as you perceive it, I think the best catholic is one who is fair and who is not bigotted against minorities or other religions.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

If you disagree with a point or points I make, can you not make your point or show why you disagree without
(a) suggesting I read a book
(b) shooting the messenger ?

Yes but
a) I actually support my point with published sources. I don't intentionally plagerise other peoples research.
b) You have a clear bias in suggesting the RC agenda was to reduce the number of Protestants in any whay other than by conversion.

I did not know Harris was a member of the Unionist party ? Oh, you have something against him because he spoke to a few unionists or something ?

Please stop reading things into what I state!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoghan_Harris

held posts at various and diverse political parties throughout his career. He was a Marxist ideologue of the Workers' Party and its predecessor, Official Sinn Féin; a short-lived adviser to former Taoiseach John Bruton;[3] an adviser to the Ulster Unionist Party[4] and most recently a supporter of the Fianna Fáil-led government of Bertie Ahern

I don't think any such person has a particular ideology. the only principle he seems to maintain is that he hates Republicans.

Reminds me of the days in my fathers time when the Priest stood outside a funeral in a Protestant church ( here in the Republic) telling the RC neighbours ( who wanted to pay their respects) "not to go in ". Regarding my "anti catholic bias" as you perceive it, I think the best catholic is one who is fair and who is not bigotted against minorities or other religions.

Or one who does not attack RC clergy and tar them all with the mistakes of a few RC clergy or accuse others of being RC clergy as if it was a crime ?

NIMAN

As a non-practising Northern Catholic, I have always said that religion has nothing to do with the sectarianism in the north.

Its political all the way.

By the nature of Christianity, you are meant to be peace loving, and have time for your neighbours, irrespective of their views or religion. This doesn't apply in the North, but then its a very mixed up country.

I know many people from both sides, and the fact that there so few differences between Christian religions makes it even sadder that so many can't get on with each other.

wolfsbane

alex73 wrote: »

Ok, .. Please no trolling

Sectarianism in Ireland. Is said to be down to religion esp in the north.

But I have always found this hard to understand. I am Catholic,but have many protestant friends. All protestants I have met are decent honest people.

So is Sectarianism more down to a Political divide today, Rather than to a Religious one? Of course I know many Practising protestants in the north want to remain part of Uk. But Practising Protestants that I know are also some of the best people I know and far removed for all Sectarianism. They have their views, its part of their life, but 90% remaining part we share and get along. I would go so far as to say protestants are integral part of Ireland. (the various denominations) .


So what is Sectarianism today built on?


(Please this is a Christian religious thread... NO trollers, no united Ireland add ons.. no "this was our land" etc...etc.. only sensible dialogue please) If you have nothing to add from a Christian Religous point of view on Sectarianism DON't POST.

As many of the posters have said, the Troubles in Northern Ireland are not essentially religious. They are ethnic, national divisions - but the ethnic division is paralleled by the religious division. So Protestants mostly are of Ulster Scots ethnic origin; Catholics mostly of Gaelic origin. British/Irish; Planter/Gael. The ethnic division manifested itself in a pro-Union or anti-Union political adherence. The Protestants felt their civil and religious liberty was best protected by remaining in the British Union. The Catholics believed the whole island was theirs (the Irish) by right and the planters must submit to the majority on the island.

No one - to the best of my knowledge - was murdered for his/her view of Justification by Faith or the Real Presence in the Mass. If they were selected for death by religion, it was only because their religion was presumed to reveal their political allegiance. Everyone knew this was not absolutely the case, but communal identity was the practical test. There have been a small number of Unionists/Loyalists who were Catholics, and the same of Nationalists/Republicans who were Protestants.

Having said that, the perceived threat to one's national identity/rights by the opposing religion is a factor. The historical reputation of the Roman Catholic Church strongly influenced the unionist people to reject a United Ireland. They feared any society that was dominated by such clericalism. They thought it would lead to, well, what we saw in the Irish Free State and the later Republic.

I'm not sure how much a desire to have a Catholic Republic motivated Nationalism/Republicanism. It certainly was there - I remember a republican supporter telling me in the late 60s/early 70s that Ireland should be run as a Catholic country. But I assume the Nationalist/Republican desire was more ethnic than religious.

So, sectarianism today is not religious, but ethnic. Most of those involved in 'sectarian' rioting have not a religious thought in their heads. Just ethnic fears and hatred.

Regarding 'sectarian' religious comments, one needs discernment to decide whether it is an expression of ethnic issues or of genuine theological differences. The spirit of the statement may be seen in the end in view - the benefit of all or promotion of one's own side.

***********************************************************************
Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

Bob Cratchet

Intresting snippet about the UDA and very relevant to this thread.

In early January 1994, the UDA released a document calling for ethnic cleansing and repartition, with the goal of making Northern Ireland wholly Protestant.[58] The plan was to be implemented should the British Army withdraw from Northern Ireland. The vastly Catholic and nationalist areas would be handed over to the Republic, and those left stranded in the "Protestant state" would be "expelled, nullified, or interned".[58] The story was printed in The Sunday Independent newspaper on 16 January.[59] The "doomsday plan" was based on the work of Dr Liam Kennedy, a lecturer at Queen's University Belfast.[58] In 1986 he had published a book called Two Ulsters: A Case for Repartition; though it did not call for ethnic cleansing. The UDP's Raymond Smallwoods said "I wasn't consulted but the scenario set out is a perfectly plausible one".[58] The DUP's Sammy Wilson stated that the plan "shows that some loyalist paramilitaries are looking ahead and contemplating what needs to be done to maintain our separate Ulster identity" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Association

Fuinseog

alex73 wrote: »

Ok, .. Please no trolling

Sectarianism in Ireland. Is said to be down to religion esp in the north.

But I have always found this hard to understand. I am Catholic,but have many protestant friends. All protestants I have met are decent honest people.

So is Sectarianism more down to a Political divide today, Rather than to a Religious one? Of course I know many Practising protestants in the north want to remain part of Uk. But Practising Protestants that I know are also some of the best people I know and far removed for all Sectarianism. They have their views, its part of their life, but 90% remaining part we share and get along. I would go so far as to say protestants are integral part of Ireland. (the various denominations) .


So what is Sectarianism today built on?


(Please this is a Christian religious thread... NO trollers, no united Ireland add ons.. no "this was our land" etc...etc.. only sensible dialogue please) If you have nothing to add from a Christian Religous point of view on Sectarianism DON't POST.

anti Catholic bigotry is on the rise here in the Republic and this time it is an attack from within a from 'lapsed' Catholics with chips on their shoulder

alex73

Fuinseog wrote: »

anti Catholic bigotry is on the rise here in the Republic and this time it is an attack from within a from 'lapsed' Catholics with chips on their shoulder

What they are attacking is a spinned view of the catholic church. All the media will report ( and rightly ) is the evil sins of a few. The good works of many go unnoticed.

PatricaMcKay

PDN wrote: »

In Northern Ireland it's basically tribalism.

No its not.

Its two things, the occupation and the fact that a part of the population was bought off along sectarian lines to secure the north for economic reasons and later for idealogical ones.

Lenny Murphy, the most notorious of the Loyalists...Pretty "Gaelic name".

Sands though? Devine though? Even Adams?

PatricaMcKay

wolfsbane wrote: »

No one - to the best of my knowledge - was murdered for his/her view of Justification by Faith or the Real Presence in the Mass. If they were selected for death by religion, it was only because their religion was presumed to reveal their political allegiance. Everyone knew this was not absolutely the case, but communal identity was the practical test. There have been a small number of Unionists/Loyalists who were Catholics, and the same of Nationalists/Republicans who were Protestants.

Not so fast there.

The people at Kingsmill were murdered because of their religious background.

The vast majority of Loyalist victims were murdered because of their religious background.

A lot of Loyalists were pleased at the killing of Stephen Kerr because he was Roman Catholic.

Fuinseog

alex73 wrote: »

What they are attacking is a spinned view of the catholic church. All the media will report ( and rightly ) is the evil sins of a few. The good works of many go unnoticed.

that Donegal caretaker scandal is interesting. He abused boys and until recently nothing was done about it. I wonder will they close the school as a result? maybe the Dept of Ed or who whoever employed him will come out and apologise and pay compensation?

when something like this happens in secular society there is less of a hulaboloo about it as it suits the anti Catholic mind set so omnipresent at the moment.

Fuinseog

a Brendan Behan quote, which may be apt

'A protestant is an Irishman with a horse'

it says a lot on how Protestants are viewed in the Republic.

PDN

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

No its not.

Its two things, the occupation and the fact that a part of the population was bought off along sectarian lines to secure the north for economic reasons and later for idealogical ones.

Lenny Murphy, the most notorious of the Loyalists...Pretty "Gaelic name".

Sands though? Devine though? Even Adams?

The reasons behind the two tribes' dislike of each other is neither here nor there. It's still tribalism. Neither are the names significant - in Nigeria you find Hausa people with Yoruba names and vice versa. Inter-marriage still takes place to some extent in tribal societies.

Although I've lived in the Republic for many years, prior to becoming a Christian I lived for periods in loyalist areas such as Ballyhackamore and Greenisland. I also lived in Nationalist areas such as the lower Antrim Road and the New Lodge. I have met men of violence from both sides of the divide and, while some of them were quite engaging on a personal level, there was a frightening similarity between them.

While bigots and partisans like to trumpet how their side was noble, and everything was the other side's fault, I think they kid themselves. Tribalism is ugly, and the North's troubles were a playground for thugs and psychopaths who wrapped their ignoble criminality in the flag of the tribe they happened to be born into.

torrentum

Fuinseog wrote: »

when something like this happens in secular society there is less of a hulaboloo about it as it suits the anti Catholic mind set so omnipresent at the moment.

Agreed

PatricaMcKay

PDN wrote: »

The reasons behind the two tribes' dislike of each other is neither here nor there. It's still tribalism. Neither are the names significant - in Nigeria you find Hausa people with Yoruba names and vice versa. Inter-marriage still takes place to some extent in tribal societies.

Although I've lived in the Republic for many years, prior to becoming a Christian I lived for periods in loyalist areas such as Ballyhackamore and Greenisland. I also lived in Nationalist areas such as the lower Antrim Road and the New Lodge. I have met men of violence from both sides of the divide and, while some of them were quite engaging on a personal level, there was a frightening similarity between them.

The central issue is and remains the occupation and sectarian issues have been used to divide and rule in order to maintain that occupation. Ignoring that pretending the pink elephant doesnt exist in the room and freaking out about a blue kitten also there. The British government have shown their readiness to maintain sectarianism during the years of the "Peace Process", indeed you could argue that GFA is there to copper fasten sectarianism.

Also comparing Republican volunteers to Loyalist death squad members and the colonial militia in all honesty is strange firstly as Republican partisans focused on military targets as opposed to terrorizing a civilian population, didnt spend their time in prison watching porn and taking drugs, didnt run webs of prositution and drug dealing, didnt have the active support of the British state on all levels (that goes without saying) and in general have been able to get on with productive lives unlike the Loyalists to say the least.

PatricaMcKay

Fuinseog wrote: »

a Brendan Behan quote, which may be apt

'A protestant is an Irishman with a horse'

it says a lot on how Protestants are viewed in the Republic.

No the quote was actually that a Loyalist is a Protestant without horse, pretty big difference there.

PDN

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The central issue is and remains the occupation and sectarian issues have been used to divide and rule in order to maintain that occupation. Ignoring that pretending the pink elephant doesnt exist in the room and freaking out about a blue kitten also there. The British government have shown their readiness to maintain sectarianism during the years of the "Peace Process", indeed you could argue that GFA is there to copper fasten sectarianism.

Also comparing Republican volunteers to Loyalist death squad members and the colonial militia in all honesty is strange firstly as Republican partisans focused on military targets as opposed to terrorizing a civilian population, didnt spend their time in prison watching porn and taking drugs, didnt run webs of prositution and drug dealing, didnt have the active support of the British state on all levels (that goes without saying) and in general have been able to get on with productive lives unlike the Loyalists to say the least.

This is getting well off-topic as we are supposed to be discussing sectarianism - not terrorism in general.

I lost friends who were killed for being born into and living among the Catholic tribe, and friends that were killed for and living among the Protestant tribe. I knew people on both sides who were blown up simply for drinking in a pub at the wrong time - no military target.

I also encountered drug dealers, pimps and paedophiles who used their status within the UDA and the PIRA to shield themselves.

If you think one side was composed of lily-white angels then you are kidding yourself. The sectarian conflict was tribalism conducted by murderous thugs on either side. I also (as someone whose family identified as neither Protestant or Catholic) had the unfortunate experience of being badly beaten in both loyalist and nationalist areas for simply being on that tribe's territory as someone who, as a non-tribe member, did not belong.

Even years later it makes me quite angry to hear thuggery being described as if it was somehow principled or heroic.

Fuinseog

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

No the quote was actually that a Loyalist is a Protestant without horse, pretty big difference there.

I am interested in literary quotes so I would be interested in your source. I just found the quote below on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish

Dublin working class playwright Brendan Behan, a staunch Irish Republican, famously defined an Anglo-Irishman as "a Protestant with a horse".
Pat: He was an Anglo-Irishman.
Meg: In the name of God, what's that?
Pat: A Protestant with a horse.
Ropeen: Leadbetter.
Pat: No, no, an ordinary Protestant like Leadbetter, the plumber in the back parlour next door, won't do, nor a Belfast orangeman, not if he was as black as your boot.
Meg: Why not?
Pat: Because they work. An Anglo-Irishman only works at riding horses, drinking whiskey, and reading double-meaning books in Irish at Trinity College.
—From act one of The Hostage, 1958
Thus, in Behan's understanding, the Anglo-Irish were Ireland's leisure class.