ULSTER independent from UK and ROI.

Erinfan

I'm not an expert on Northern Ireland issue neither Irish national nor resident may I offer a brief portrait of the situation from my point of view.

I am neither Irish nor British and never set foot in the island.
In advance I apologize if the reader discovers errors and I urge him to correct me if this portrait lacks fairness or accuracy.

There in NI,there's a slight majority of people from Protestant cultural background and almost all/mostly descendants of English and Scottish settlers settled in the 17th century during the creation of plantations of Ulster. People here consider themselves British and still want to remain British or want to maintain strong cultural and emotional links with GB. They are often referred as loyalists or unionists.

On the other side, There's a sizable minority of people from indigenous "Irish" and from Catholic cultural background and they are called nationalists or republicans who want the reunification of the island of Ireland under the administration of the Republic of Ireland.

If the majority is satisfied with the Loyalist status quo that is to say, remain under the British crown , the minority is not comfortable to live in a country Great Britain where the overwhelming majority of people 97% is Protestant culturally speaking.

If, in the contrary to this; there's annexation of Ulster to the Republic of Ireland the "Protestants" to be drowned in a country of traditions and Catholic cultures it is also a nightmare for them.

My question is:

So why not create an independent and autonomous state in Northern Ireland just as the two community groups being substantially the same demographic weights, according to my figures of 45% are “Protestants” and 40% is traditionally “Catholic”, 15% unaffiliated, will neutralize each other and thus create a mixed culture?

dlofnep

Two things.

#1 Ulster consists of 9 counties.
#2 A 6 county statelet would collapse, and would be against the wishes of both communities. It has very little support in any polls.

Cathal O

No party / group has ever gained any support for such a state. The two views are clearly either - stay within the union or become part of a new irish state

KeithAFC

Not enough support for it.

charlemont

In fairness you mean well but it wont happen.

sollar

That would be an even worse fate for the nationalist community. At least under UK administration in 2011 discrimination isn't as tolerated as it once was. An independent NI with majority protestant rule could be a different story.

Erinfan

Not convince that both communities are opposed as you suggested.I think Unionists fear most from the independent, sovereign state because they are so accustomed to live under the umbrella of UK.

RMD

I doubt it would be viable. The country has largely survived on British subsidies and the odd bit of funding from the Republic. Make it independent without funding from either and it will face many problems.

Suafd

Seems to me there is an ironic balance between the populations of the island of Ireland and the country of scotland. About 6 million here and 5 over yonder with a sizeable protestant/unionist minority here mirrored by a sizeable catholic/republican minority in scotland. In a totalitarian regime, a straight swop would be a no brainer. However, what's interesting is the increasingly nationalism of the scots.

sensibleken

If history and boards.ie have taught us anything its that too many dont have the maturity to make a state like that work

Fr Tod Umptious

dlofnep wrote: »

Two things.

#1 Ulster consists of 9 counties.
#2 A 6 county statelet would collapse, and would be against the wishes of both communities. It has very little support in any polls.

less of the nitpicking

the OP did say that they were not an expect on the subject.

dlofnep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

less of the nitpicking

the OP did say that they were not an expect on the subject.

That is not nitpicking.

Fr Tod Umptious

dlofnep wrote: »

That is not nitpicking.

Well it is if you ask me.

Some people use the term Ulster to mean the 6 counties of NI, others use it to refer to the 9 counties of Ulster.

There is no need to up up the OP on it.

sensibleken

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well it is if you ask me.

Some people use the term Ulster to mean the 6 counties of NI, others use it to refer to the 9 counties of Ulster.

There is no need to up up the OP on it.

The OP asked to be corrected if he got anything wrong. and politely was corrected. he wasnt giving out to the OP for it

Cathal O

In fairness i think he needed to be corrected on the difference. There is a big difference between an independent ulster and an independent NI, the OP stated that he did not know much on the topic and so he could have meant either.

On the topic itself, there is no support for any such state, there is no real NI culture i dont believe, just extreme britishness or irishness, their culture is defined as wanting to be part of separate entities.

Fr Tod Umptious

sensibleken wrote: »

The OP asked to be corrected if he got anything wrong. and politely was corrected. he wasnt giving out to the OP for it

But there is nothing wrong with referring to NI as Ulster.

You may not agree with it, but there are people in this world who refer to NI as Ulster.

And as is typical on this form when it come to Ulster or Londonderry certain posters are quick as a flash to 'correct' people for referring to NI as Ulster or Derry as Londonderry.

On the topic itself I agree that NI is not a viable entity on it's own and will only exist as part of the UK or the ROI.

enda1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But there is nothing wrong with referring to NI as Ulster.

You may not agree with it, but there are people in this world who refer to NI as Ulster.

And as is typical on this form when it come to Ulster or Londonderry certain posters are quick as a flash to 'correct' people for referring to NI as Ulster or Derry as Londonderry.

On the topic itself I agree that NI is not a viable entity on it's own and will only exist as part of the UK or the ROI.

What are you on about.

Its fundamentally fucking wrong. Its like calling an apple and orange.

dlofnep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well it is if you ask me.

Well, it's just as well that nobody asked you. The OP asked to be corrected on any errors, and I obliged him.

Fr Tod Umptious

enda1 wrote: »

What are you on about.

Its fundamentally fucking wrong. Its like calling an apple and orange.

So who do the Ulster Unionist party represent, people in Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal too ?

Fr Tod Umptious

dlofnep wrote: »

Well, it's just as well that nobody asked you. The OP asked to be corrected on any errors, and I obliged him.

But calling NI Ulster is not an error, it's a matter of preference.

awaits Mod warning about discussion on what things are called in NI

Cathal O

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But calling NI Ulster is not an error, it's a matter of preference.

Sorry there, but as a resident of "Ulster" but not NI, if ulster would become part of an independent state, I would be directly affected, however as the three southern ulster counties are not part of NI, I would not be affected, so there is a fundamental difference here between NI and ulster.

Two separate entities.

KeithAFC

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But there is nothing wrong with referring to NI as Ulster.

You may not agree with it, but there are people in this world who refer to NI as Ulster.

And as is typical on this form when it come to Ulster or Londonderry certain posters are quick as a flash to 'correct' people for referring to NI as Ulster or Derry as Londonderry.

On the topic itself I agree that NI is not a viable entity on it's own and will only exist as part of the UK or the ROI.

I call it Ulster. Don't see the big deal. Just another term.

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

I call it Ulster. Don't see the big deal. Just another term.

I agree, and do not understand the usual uproar regarding simple terminology. In this regard however there is a differnce. There is a big diifference between an Independant ulster and an independant NI.

An indepandant ulster would involve me, but an independant NI wouldnt

Fr Tod Umptious

Cathal O wrote: »

Sorry there, but as a resident of "Ulster" but not NI, if ulster would become part of an independent state, I would be directly affected, however as the three southern ulster counties are not part of NI, I would not be affected, so there is a fundamental difference here between NI and ulster.

Two separate entities.

Take a look where you're livin'
You got the Army on the street
And the RUC dog of repression
Is barking at your feet

So you had better talk to the SLF and ask them to renanme their classic 'Alternative Northern Ireland'

KeithAFC

Cathal O wrote: »

I agree, and do not understand the usual uproar regarding simple terminology. In this regard however there is a differnce. There is a big diifference between an Independant ulster and an independant NI.

An indepandant ulster would involve me, but an independant NI wouldnt

Aye, i agree with that.

sensibleken

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But there is nothing wrong with referring to NI as Ulster.

You may not agree with it, but there are people in this world who refer to NI as Ulster.

And as is typical on this form when it come to Ulster or Londonderry certain posters are quick as a flash to 'correct' people for referring to NI as Ulster or Derry as Londonderry.

On the topic itself I agree that NI is not a viable entity on it's own and will only exist as part of the UK or the ROI.

I couldnt give two flying fúcks. The OP asked to be corrected if he got anything wrong. they then were politely pointed out that Ulster has 9 counties and you jumped down his throat for it, calling it nitpicking.

you can call it Jemery the magical province if you want but if someone points out its actual name then its not nitpicking

enda1

KeithAFC wrote: »

I call it Ulster. Don't see the big deal. Just another term.

Ah Irish Catholic Keith. Glad to see you join.

Fr Tod Umptious

sensibleken wrote: »

I couldnt give two flying fúcks. The OP asked to be corrected if he got anything wrong. they then were politely pointed out that Ulster has 9 counties and you jumped down his throat for it, calling it nitpicking.

you can call it Jemery the magical province if you want but if someone points out its actual name then its not nitpicking

well you must, if you are pulling me up for saying that referring to the six counties of Northern Ireland as Ulster is quiet acceptable

dlofnep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But calling NI Ulster is not an error, it's a matter of preference.

It is erroneous. Ulster has 9 counties. But for the sake of not dragging this thread into a meaningless ball-dragging contest, we'll agree to disagree.

RandomName2

Erinfan wrote: »

My question is:

So why not create an independent and autonomous state in Northern Ireland just as the two community groups being substantially the same demographic weights, according to my figures of 45% are “Protestants” and 40% is traditionally “Catholic”, 15% unaffiliated, will neutralize each other and thus create a mixed culture?

The Ulster Unionists have always sought some sort of independence; particularly from the notion or reality of an Irish state, but also from Westmister to a certain extent.

If the Unionists were forced into a Home Rule Ireland at the time of the Third Home Rule Bill they would have done exactly what you are suggesting and declared independence from both the UK and Ireland and would have (at least they said) be willing to resist both with arms.

As it stands, and as it has stood since Northern Ireland came into existence, the Unionists (and also the nationalists by this stage!) have been granted independence though their own Home Rule (Stormont) whilst also benefiting from being in the united kingdom (not least through very generous hand-outs).

As such it would make no sense to leave the UK - particularly if it is just to set up shop by one's self.

If they are going to remain in the EU (and they wouldn't survive without) it would be a mostly moot point anyway (unless they were specifically doing it in order to adopt the euro... and why not join Ireland if that is your main objective?)

anymore

Cathal O wrote: »

No party / group has ever gained any support for such a state. The two views are clearly either - stay within the union or become part of a new irish state

Was there not an Independence ' faction in the 80's ?