Saorview EPG on DVBViewer

tlaavtech

Hi,

I have an issue with DVBViewer where I get the full EPG for satellite, but I get lots of gaps in the EPG for RTE 1/2/tv3. Thursday is full at the moment from 7am to midnight. :eek:

I am in the middle of asking DVBViewer team to help sort it out, but I wanted to see if I am the only one or does everyone have this problem. (I have it installed on a number of different machines with completely different HW and OS and the problem is on the all.)

Tks,

C.

John mac

I think is got to do with the way rte are sending out the info.

there are a few threads on it.
(the epg on my pc media center 3.5 isnt full either.)

Mr McBoatface

It's a problem caused by RTE NL using "ENG" and not "eng" as a language descriptor.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72760075

tlaavtech

On the DVBViewer forum, I talked about the "ENG" problem, and the programmer said that it was not likely to be the cause of a partial problem - it would be all or nothing.

The other thread talked about not having programme descriptions on an Edison box rather than an EPG with large gaps, which is why I posted here.

EDIT: I missed the other thread - Hopefully I can get an answer from the DVBViewer people.

EDIT2: Just realised that I posted on the other thread - Brain failure well under way!

fat-tony

Have you analysed the EIT data using Transedit? That would tell you if there are actual gaps in the current info being transmitted. I'll fire up the media PC later and see if I can spot a pattern.

STB

From what I can see the gaps are because its not being inputted correctly, there are large gaps alright with programmes in some cases going on for 6 hrs and 16:00 items appearing between 21:30 and 23:00 events.

Tg4 seems to be the only one with correct entries. EIT within DVB-SI is a standard. Its a problem at RTE NL's end, IMO.

tlaavtech

The items that are not in the EPG do seem to be in the EIT - at least for the few I have tried..

The full details of my work so far are here.

STB

tlaavtech - One thing to mention isthat the DVB-SI/PSI server is per Nordic Spec (not UK Dbook).

fat-tony

STB wrote: »

From what I can see the gaps are because its not being inputted correctly, there are large gaps alright with programmes in some cases going on for 6 hrs and 16:00 items appearing between 21:30 and 23:00 events.

Tg4 seems to be the only one with correct entries. EIT within DVB-SI is a standard. Its a problem at RTE NL's end, IMO.

I'd agree with STB. I had a look with Transedit and not only are EventIDs being re-used for the same programme each day (they are supposed to be unique within the 7/8 day schedule according to DVB standard), the data is not being transmitted in date order and some of the labels are just bizarre! On RTE One I found Event ID 391 marked as Six One News, with a start time of 13:25 (GMT) and a duration of 1:10, but when you look at the description it is obviously for Eastenders.

I'd say they are playing about with the EPG info in RTE.

fat-tony

tlaavtech wrote: »

The items that are not in the EPG do seem to be in the EIT - at least for the few I have tried..

The full details of my work so far are here.

I had a quick read through your thread on the DVBviewer forum. The EventIDs are not suitable for using to link same shows on different days. They are supposed to be unique within the full schedule of 7 days. Maybe RTE are trying to do a poor man's version of series linking, or, more likely, have just messed up:)
Series linking will require additional data (CRID) within the EIT tables which will uniquely identify a particular series and also individual programmes within a series, so that a recorder does not record repeat transmissions. This is defined within the Nordig specification. An example of Freeview's implementation of series link (for SD channels) is here. On Freeview HD mutiplexes the series link info is compressed so that only Freeview-branded PVRs can get the full EPG data for accurate recording of series linked programmes.

tlaavtech

Thanks for all the info guys.

What confuses me is that my Sony tele is able to put together a coherent EPG, but I can't see any alternative source of information. Is there another data stream that Transedit does not show?

Also, why did RTE seem to have a perfectly good EPG running until launch only to screw it up afterwards?

Mr McBoatface

"EPG collector" pulls the EPG data direct from the DVB source and creates an xmltv compatible file. There are no gaps at all when the xmltv file is imported in to the EPG, I've been using this method (on Mediaportal) ever since the EPG got all messed up. Does DVBviewer offer a method to import xmltv file for the EPG ?

tlaavtech

DVBViewer can import XML EPG - but I'm a curmudgeon and feel that I shouldn't have to go off and aquire the data every few days when it is already there in the stream

I did it before the FreeSat EPG was implemented on DVBViewer. I suppose I will have to dust off the brain cells and do it for RTE :mad:

fat-tony

I've done some more digging. My Sony TV and a separate media box with tuner and basic EPG are both displaying the full EPG. DVBviewer has gaps.

I believe it's that DVBviewer is coded to expect unique EventIds within the EIT stream (as per the DVB spc.) and is dropping the duplicates.

For example, DVBviewer is showing an entry for "The Carpenters" next Saturday at 16:05, but is not showing an entry for "Rachel Allen" just before that at 15:40. The problem is that the "Rachel Allen" programme is on also on the 12th @ 23:15 and that entry in the EIT has the same EventID of 351. So it would seem that DVBviewer is dropping duplicates. I think RTE need to sort out their programme numbering and adhere to the DVB specs.

DVBViewer may need the EventIDs for some other aspect of its operation - perhaps to uniquely identify a programme for recording, maybe?

Apogee

I'm looking at box now and while the 7-day EPG is fully populated for TG4, it's blank until about 7am tomorrow morning for RTE1, 2, and completely borked for TV3. In addition, Now and Next data is missing for those three but present for TG4.

fat-tony

It's the duplicate Event IDs causing the problem.

Apogee

@fat-tony - are the duplicate IDs missing from TG4? TG4 seems to be consistently OK, while the others are invariably messed up.

Presumably there's no rational reason for using duplicate Event IDs?

fat-tony

No idea - I've long ago stopped trying to second guess what RTE are up to with the EPG data. Feck sake - up till quite recently, according to the EPG, Val Joyce was still presenting Late Date on Radio 1. Val hasn't been on the radio for years!

DeepBlue

tlaavtech wrote: »

DVBViewer can import XML EPG - but I'm a curmudgeon and feel that I shouldn't have to go off and aquire the data every few days when it is already there in the stream

I did it before the FreeSat EPG was implemented on DVBViewer. I suppose I will have to dust off the brain cells and do it for RTE :mad:

If possible could you give a brief outline of how to do this? A non-ideal workaround is better than no workaround.
Thanks.

fat-tony

The correct solution is for RTENL to adhere to the DVB specifications (and the Nordig subset of these) for EPG data!

I added to tlaavtech's thread on the DVBViewer forum and queried why DVBViewer was so strict on the parsing of the EPG data. Got this answer from the main developer which covers the problem:

Ambiguous IDs are deadly for applications that are handling/storing the EPG in database-like structures (see configuration folder -> epg.dat), in order to make the data persistent and available even if the transponder on which the data is broadcasted is not tuned/received in a DVBViewer session.

Events are referenced by the path Network ID -> Transportstream ID -> Service ID -> Event ID, as intended by the DVB specifications. It's like a path to a file on your hard disk, where double filenames within a folder are forbidden as well (try to rename a file to an already existing name...). The start time of an event is not reliable enough, because it may change. The Event ID is supposed to make an event recognizable even if the start time changes.

So, if DVBViewer receives another event with the same path resp. Event ID, it assumes that the start time has changed and drops the previous event associated with this ID. Like your OS, if you copy a file to a folder where a file with the same name already exists. It will be overwritten.

So, while it may not be necessary for a basic STB or TV EPG display to unambiguously identify a programme other than by scheduled start time, it becomes critical when you have a recorder situation where you want to track the start of a programme which may shift from its scheduled start time.

Apogee

fat-tony wrote: »

The correct solution is for RTENL to adhere to the DVB specifications (and the Nordig subset of these) for EPG data!

Time to start writing a few emails and start complaining I reckon.

Saorview
info@saorview.ie

RTENL
rtenl@rte.ie

Alun

Windows 7 Media Center appears to have the same problem when using the in-band EPG data. I've switched to the MS supplied one for the channels it supports for that reason.

fat-tony

I've written to a contact within RTE regarding this issue. He has responded before on other issues, so I'm hopeful that he'll pass on the query.

rurs

Fingers crossed, but it seems to be sorted...I have full 7 days again:D

tlaavtech

I noticed that this morning, but there still seemed to be duplicate event ID's in the data stream so I didn't get too excited!!

fat-tony

rurs wrote: »

Fingers crossed, but it seems to be sorted...I have full 7 days again:D

Hi rurs - is this on DVBviewer?

I've just had a look at the RTE One stream and while there are definite moves being made to reduce duplicates, there are still some and these are causing occasional gaps in the schedule on DVBviewer. e.g. at 05.55 tomorrow 12th. There is an Event ID (393) for Knots Landing at that time. Unfortunately there is a duplicate Event ID (393) for Knots Landing on 18th July at 04:25. There are other duplications and these are throwing DVBviewer. It looks like the schedule data is being cleaned up, though. Hopefully it will be sorted. The Nordig PVR white paper (see Cush's post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72905471) makes a point of stating that Event IDs must be unique per service (channel) for the duration of the EPG (8 days) and they recommend that the Event IDs are kept unique over a period of 91 days (13 weeks), which is the recommendation within the UK's Freeview and Freesat EPGs for PVRs using Series Link. The Series Link data uses additional data (CRID) within the EIT tables to uniquely identify programme and series information. While the content is a bit "dry" the Nordig document is interesting for us in Ireland as it proposes that Series linking and Accurate Recording are based on the UK Freeview and Freesat service which should mean that those Freeview HD+ PVRs have a good chance of working well with the Saorview EPG.

hadit2here

Edision Argus 2in1 fix here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73258772&postcount=87

Sam Russell

Slightly off topic, but why do listings not give series/episode no. when listing programmes. For example: 7.00 Friends; 7:30 Friends; 8:00 Friends. which you see on the likes of E4 and others. Instead it should be 7.00 Friends S4/E5; 7.30 Friends S4/E5 etc. etc.

It is pointless just giving the title of a programme that ran for 10 years with some 20 or more episodes per year. It would also be useful to show if it is a repeat, or even a second or third showing that week.

I need to get out more.

rurs

fat-tony wrote: »

Hi rurs - is this on DVBviewer?

Actually no, I do have DVBviewer, but my DTT tuner is tied up on a vu+.

The quote you gave from the DVBviewer developer was interesting, I hadn't appreciated that epg.dat meant it was a database (it's the same on vu+), also that Nordig spec is illuminating...if RTE intend having series link, they'll have to remove the duplicates.

Big thanks fat-tony for persevering with this:)

fat-tony

Sam Russell wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but why do listings not give series/episode no. when listing programmes. For example: 7.00 Friends; 7:30 Friends; 8:00 Friends. which you see on the likes of E4 and others. Instead it should be 7.00 Friends S4/E5; 7.30 Friends S4/E5 etc. etc.

It is pointless just giving the title of a programme that ran for 10 years with some 20 or more episodes per year. It would also be useful to show if it is a repeat, or even a second or third showing that week.

I need to get out more.

The CBS Action/Drama channels on Astra sat do actually publish the series and episode numbers on their synopsis pages. I found it useful when recording old episodes of "Boston Legal" :o:o - must get out more, myself!

Dav

Folks, I have removed an email address of a lady working in RTÉ. That's twice this week I've had to remove this address. We don't publish people's personal contact details on Boards, so please don't post this person's details again.

tlaavtech

Significant changes this morning on the Event ID's. They are now 5-digit ID's rather than the 3-digit before we started. There are now no gaps of any description on the EPG.

I have found one duplicate ID, but it is for the 9 O'clock news on RTE 1 and on News Now, so I guess there is a good reason for this since it is the same programme!! (But that just dumb luck - it was the first one I checked!!! I aint' gonna search the rest of 'em!!)

Thank you RTE if you are reading. It is nice to know that people are being listened to.

If you e-mailed the original request, can I ask that a follow-up thank you might go even further to encourage this kind of service in the future.

fat-tony

Thanks for the update. The EventId field only needs to be unique within the service(channel), so it's ok to see duplicates across RTE One and (say) RTE Two or TV3 or whatever.

There would appear to be changes afoot all right and maybe we will start seeing the programme and series CRID data appearing shortly as these will be necessary for successful PVR operation.

Also needed will be the population of the other multiplex schedule data on each multiplex otherwise single tuner boxes will not be able to display the full EPG;)

tlaavtech

Thanks for all your input - It raised the awareness to the point where stuff got done!

fat-tony

I've written back to my contact in RTE to thank him (even though he did not reply to my original email):)

dmm1000

hi guys
just a follow up on this thread - has anyone successfully used the EPG Collector in conjunction with the DVBVIEWER recording service to import the EPG for Saorview into the DVBVIEWER recording service ?

I've tried everything i can but cannot get it to import - according to the log it seems to tune ok and sees some of the data but wont import it
anyone got it working ?

tlaavtech

No need to use EPG Collector. DVBVIewer should pick up EPG automatically. Not in front is PC now but will post settings in a while. Once you tune in the channel it should fill out the EPG.

EDIT: Had a quick look. Two things to check.

1. Have you enabled the "Receive EPG Data" in the recording service configuration? If this is working, you should see the Full EPG on the Web page of the recording service.

2. If you can see the EPG on the RS, then make sure that you have checked "Download EPG From Service" in the Recording Service page in the Options Menu of DVBViewer.

Not sure how well you know the package, so apologies if this is over- or under-estimating your knowledge of DVBViewer.

dmm1000

thanks tlaavtech

yes its just handier to view the EPG from the 127.0.0.1:8089 web page and have DVB-T and DVB-S EPGs in the one place (such as the recording service) if possible

tlaavtech

You can pick and choose what comes from the Off-Air EPG and what does not. You can get your Freesat EPG from Satellite and combine it with DTT to display on Web and on EPG within DVBViewer. If you prefer, you can mix and match between EPG Collector, DTT EPG and Sat EPG.

dmm1000

yes the key part being getting saorview EPG into the recording service - appears in DVBVIEWER itself as you instructed ok tlaavtech
but i would like it in the recording service EPG (127.0.0.1:8089)

I've made a post / request with the author of EPG Collector
Request for Saorview support in EPG Collector

tlaavtech

... but Saorview EPG does go into the recording service! By Any chance have you disabled EPG receiving for your tuner?

I can post pictures of my setting if you want.

dmm1000

let me go have a play first and i'll let you know - thanks

dmm1000

hi tlaavtech - all out of ideas

ive attached my screen shots - obviously have neglected something but am not sure what
flicked about between rte 1 and rte2 while i had the RS open on 127.0.0.1:8089

saorview comes into dvbviewer program fine but cannot get it to appear on the web page (RS)

tlaavtech

The only difference I can see is that I have selected "Receive Freesat EPG Data" in the recording service EPG config and in the DVBViewer EPG options.

In both EPG options, go to the "SiehFern/MHW" tab, and make sure that this line is there:

11428 h FreeSAT

If you are only using satellite for UK channels, you can delete the other lines.

This will let you get the Freesat EPG for the satellite card also. This has the advantage of updating the BBC/ITV/C4 EPG when there are changes issued.

My logic is that you need to have some EPG gathering swiched on! (Turn them all on if you like - it can't hurt!!!)

Let me know how you get on!

C.

dmm1000

thank you - i will

dmm1000

well tlaavtech - i just went into dvbviewer on the client laptop running dvbviewer as a client - switched to RTE one and then went into the RS via the web interface and the saorview EPG is all there - really weird - as when i tried this on dvbviewer on the machine with the DVBT tuner it didnt change anything

i hadnt got the freesat / mediahighway etc options ticked on the client machine either but i did as per your advice on the main pc (with tuner)
software can be temperamental and never fails to surprise - anyway i have shown i can get it to work using the client dvbviewer - will play with settings on main pc to satisfy curiosity - thanks