Religious gestures

axer

So was at a wedding on Friday. Missed the mass (couldn't get there on time due to circumstances thankfully).

Few beers at the hotel before the dinner starts.

Everyone heads to their seats in the banquet hall. Few short speeches then the best man calls on the priest to say grace before the meal.

So he starts off "in the name of the father...." and without thinking I found myself making the start prayer gestures along with everyone then after a second or two thinking to myself "what are you doing?".

What do I do? I fear I am still susceptible to the cult!

Ever happen to you?

Rev Hellfire

axer wrote: »

What do I do? I fear I am still susceptible to the cult!

I suspect the only practical solution is to get your arm amputated.

Daemonic

Some habits and mannerisms will never leave you. The bus I get every day goes past a cemetry and the number of people automatically crossing themselves is strange to see. Pure reflex for most, much like when an Ambulance comes up behind the bus with sirens wailing, off go the crossers again.

I never did any of it as a kid so never had to lose the habit but some stuff is deeply ingrained.

IrishKnight

Happened to find myself at a Sunday mass yesterday, and near the start, I found it hard not to say the lords prayer in my mind. 16 years of doing something really is hard to get rid of

As someone said to me many years ago, "it's just words"

robindch

Never happened to me, but once, years after I left school, I did call a former teacher "Sir" by mistake when he showed up unexpectedly at my parents' house.

Eek.

B_Fanatic

Does it really matter whether you sit there with your arms crossed marvelling at just how crazy it is that a room of people are performing a cult-like chant, or whether you particapate yourself? Hell, when I was made go to mass I would go up for communion - just to keep the family happy. It's not like I'm going to contract christianity from the bread or anything...

Penn

B_Fanatic wrote: »

Does it really matter whether you sit there with your arms crossed marvelling at just how crazy it is that a room of people are performing a cult-like chant, or whether you particapate yourself? Hell, when I was made go to mass I would go up for communion - just to keep the family happy. It's not like I'm going to contract christianity from the bread or anything...

People have contracted worse things from it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40904345/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/parishioners-warned-amid-communion-hepatitis-scare/

az2wp0sye65487

B_Fanatic wrote: »

Does it really matter whether you sit there with your arms crossed marvelling at just how crazy it is that a room of people are performing a cult-like chant, or whether you particapate yourself? Hell, when I was made go to mass I would go up for communion - just to keep the family happy. It's not like I'm going to contract christianity from the bread or anything...

I was just thinking the same thing myself. I don't know how to class myself to be honest... Maybe a 'non-practicing' Catholic... but in reference to the OP - if your friends invite you to their wedding, whether you believe in anything or not, isn't it only polite to show them the respect of participating in their day. After all, if you don't believe then what's the harm?

axer

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

I was just thinking the same thing myself. I don't know how to class myself to be honest... Maybe a 'non-practicing' Catholic... but in reference to the OP - if your friends invite you to their wedding, whether you believe in anything or not, isn't it only polite to show them the respect of participating in their day. After all, if you don't believe then what's the harm?

and how exactly did I not participate in their day in such a way that they were disrepected? Please enlighten me with your wisdom.

smokingman

robindch wrote: »

Never happened to me, but once, years after I left school, I did call a former teacher "Sir" by mistake when he showed up unexpectedly at my parents' house.

Eek.

I always call guys in newsagents/any other service industry place "sir" - I reckon they get enough crap being behind a counter and it's just an automatic habit of mine now.

Malari

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

I was just thinking the same thing myself. I don't know how to class myself to be honest... Maybe a 'non-practicing' Catholic... but in reference to the OP - if your friends invite you to their wedding, whether you believe in anything or not, isn't it only polite to show them the respect of participating in their day. After all, if you don't believe then what's the harm?

Urgh, hate that "what's the harm" line!

You get offered coffee in somone's house, but you only drink tea. Do you have the coffee because, sure what's the harm? Isn't it only polite because everyone else is drinking coffee?

It's not about harm! I don't have to drink coffee if I don't want to and I don't want to participate so I don't have to!

I feel like Stewie in Family Guy when Lois tells him the water won't bite. He knows it won't bite, it DROWNS you!!!

Turtwig

Prayers are almost second nature to me, in fact, during an non religious funeral service for somebody there was one prayer said to appease the religious part of the deceased family. Even though I knew how irreligious the deceased actually was I couldn't help myself and broke into the prayer and got a lovely smack across the triceps from the person standing beside me. I deserved it.:o
The prayer was totally unintentional but as I find come rosary or mass time there is like a part of my brain wired that just sparks off into prayer before I can stop it.

moonboy52

Organised religion is an insidious beast.

As the Jesuit qoute went:

"Give me the child, and I will mould the man."

"Give me the child for seven years,
and I will give you the man."

"Give me the child until he is
seven and I care not who has him thereafter."

"Give me the child till the age of seven
and I will show you the man."


They get us at such an early age that it is ingrained and for many it is hard to break free.


Doing the sign of the cross when an atheist is like when you cut the head from a chicken the body keeps running.

The belief may be dead inside us but the remnants of their brainwashing remains.

aidan24326

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

I was just thinking the same thing myself. I don't know how to class myself to be honest... Maybe a 'non-practicing' Catholic... but in reference to the OP - if your friends invite you to their wedding, whether you believe in anything or not, isn't it only polite to show them the respect of participating in their day. After all, if you don't believe then what's the harm?

There's really no such thing though. Because if you don't practise any of the usual things that a catholic is supposed to, such as praying, going to mass, taking communion, attending confession etc etc, then in what meaningful way are you 'catholic'? You aren't. Just call it like it is and say you're no religion.

az2wp0sye65487

axer wrote: »

and how exactly did I not participate in their day in such a way that they were disrepected?

I didn't mean to come across as though I was singling you out as disrespectful. I just meant that when a group of people are saying a prayer, whether you believe in what they are saying / agree with it or not, the respectful thing to do would be to sit silently and wait until it's over. (I'm not saying you didn't)

axer wrote: »

Please enlighten me with your wisdom.

No need to be so sarky, or defensive

Malari wrote: »

Urgh, hate that "what's the harm" line!

You get offered coffee in somone's house, but you only drink tea. Do you have the coffee because, sure what's the harm? Isn't it only polite because everyone else is drinking coffee?

It's not about harm! I don't have to drink coffee if I don't want to and I don't want to participate so I don't have to!

I feel like Stewie in Family Guy when Lois tells him the water won't bite. He knows it won't bite, it DROWNS you!!!

Someone invites you to their house for a get together, at which coffee will be served at one point. You don't drink coffee, but would like to be there for the rest of the event. A cup of coffee is poured and put in front of you before you have a chance to explain that you don't drink coffee. Seeing as this is somebody else's special day, the least you can do is just politely leave it to one side. Not throw it back in their face while screaming "I DON'T DRINK COFFEE YOU CNUT!!!"

CerebralCortex

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

I was just thinking the same thing myself. I don't know how to class myself to be honest... Maybe a 'non-practicing' Catholic... but in reference to the OP - if your friends invite you to their wedding, whether you believe in anything or not, isn't it only polite to show them the respect of participating in their day. After all, if you don't believe then what's the harm?

Would you say the same to a Muslim friend, a Mormon etc.? I think not.

Ernesto Rancid Market

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

Seeing as this is somebody else's special day, the least you can do is just politely leave it to one side. Not throw it back in their face while screaming "I DON'T DRINK COFFEE YOU CNUT!!!"

*chokes up giggling*
that's such a funny image

CerebralCortex

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

Someone invites you to their house for a get together, at which coffee will be served at one point. You don't drink coffee, but would like to be there for the rest of the event. A cup of coffee is poured and put in front of you before you have a chance to explain that you don't drink coffee. Seeing as this is somebody else's special day, the least you can do is just politely leave it to one side. Not throw it back in their face while screaming "I DON'T DRINK COFFEE YOU CNUT!!!"

OP didn't behave like that.

az2wp0sye65487

aidan24326 wrote: »

There's really no such thing though. Because if you don't practise any of the usual things that a catholic is supposed to, such as praying, going to mass, taking communion, attending confession etc etc, then in what meaningful way are you 'catholic'? You aren't. Just call it like it is and say you're no religion.

All I meant was I was raised as a Catholic. Was baptised, made communion & confirmation etc... but don't practice any more. I'm not saying I have no belief though. So I wouldn't know how to classify myself.

az2wp0sye65487

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Would you say the same to a Muslim friend, a Mormon etc.? I think not.

If a friend of mine asked me to participate in something like their wedding, whether I shared their beliefs or not - I'd be honoured to have been asked. And would try to be as respectful as possible

CerebralCortex wrote: »

OP didn't behave like that.

I never said the OP did.

Malari

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

Someone invites you to their house for a get together, at which coffee will be served at one point. You don't drink coffee, but would like to be there for the rest of the event. A cup of coffee is poured and put in front of you before you have a chance to explain that you don't drink coffee. Seeing as this is somebody else's special day, the least you can do is just politely leave it to one side. Not throw it back in their face while screaming "I DON'T DRINK COFFEE YOU CNUT!!!"

How is someone NOT crossing themselves, saying prayers or doing communion analagous to that?

CerebralCortex

Malari wrote: »

How is someone NOT crossing themselves, saying prayers or doing communion analagous to that?

My point exactly!

Ellis Dee

IrishKnight wrote: »

Happened to find myself at a Sunday mass yesterday, and near the start, I found it hard not to say the lords prayer in my mind. 16 years of doing something really is hard to get rid of

As someone said to me many years ago, "it's just words"

It will take years, but you'll get there.

I was lucky to get out of Ireland when I was still young and I quickly shook off the bad habit of religion. Nowadays, on the rare occasions that I go to funerals or wedding in Ireland, I've become a past master at mumbling and making vague gestures with my hands and looking like I'm sort of getting with the programme. I am civil to priests in the bar afterwards and even shared a joint with one a few years ago. I don't see any point on rubbing people's noses in it that I find all that superstition ridiculous.:):)

Whatever get's y'off, I suppose!;)

Malari

CerebralCortex wrote: »

My point exactly!

I know I just thought I'd elaborate to emphasise our joint incredulity. :pac:

recedite

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

The uncomfortable situation you found yourself in was deliberately engineered by the particular religion in order to maximise solidarity among members, while at the same time isolating any dissent. Not only lapsed members, but also anyone from a different religion will be made to feel uncomfortable in that situation.

Insofar as that is a hostile act, then merely staying silent and keeping hands by your side is really a very tame response, even though you might feel (will be made to feel) like you are acting defiantly.

It's like politely leaving the unwanted coffee to one side, but still having a few people look at you as if you had screamed "I DON'T DRINK COFFEE YOU CNUT!!!"

After a while you get used to it though. The more of us there are dissenting, the fewer the strange looks.

seamus

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

I didn't mean to come across as though I was singling you out as disrespectful. I just meant that when a group of people are saying a prayer, whether you believe in what they are saying / agree with it or not, the respectful thing to do would be to sit silently and wait until it's over.

That's not really what you said though
You said that they should participate out of respect.

Which IMO, is entirely disrespectful. The entire point of the various recitations and prayers are a demonstration of your faith, and affirmation of your beliefs. They are things which should be said because you believe them, and should not be said if you don't. For us, yes they're just words. But for truly religious people, they are more than that, and reciting their prayers fully in the knowledge that you don't believe a word of it, I believe is massively disrespectful to those around you who do consider the words to have meaning.

I have found that some people in a church setting will give you evil looks if your mouth isn't moving, but I've yet to have someone challenge me on it. I stand there with my hands in front or behind me, ponder on the architecture and history of the building and people-watch.

When I was younger, I used to refuse to stand, but then I discovered that makes other people quite uncomfortable. So that's not right for me to do. But kneeling is only reserved for those who wish to pray.

Someone invites you to their house for a get together, at which coffee will be served at one point. You don't drink coffee, but would like to be there for the rest of the event. A cup of coffee is poured and put in front of you before you have a chance to explain that you don't drink coffee. Seeing as this is somebody else's special day, the least you can do is just politely leave it to one side.

Or you could politely ask whether it would be possible to get some tea...

strobe

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

All I meant was I was raised as a Catholic. Was baptised, made communion & confirmation etc... but don't practice any more. I'm not saying I have no belief though. So I wouldn't know how to classify myself.

I now classify you people as 'Audreys' if that helps.

ShooterSF

seamus wrote: »

But for truly religious people, they are more than that, and reciting their prayers fully in the knowledge that you don't believe a word of it, I believe is massively disrespectful to those around you who do consider the words to have meaning.

I have found that some people in a church setting will give you evil looks if your mouth isn't moving, but I've yet to have someone challenge me on it. I stand there with my hands in front or behind me, ponder on the architecture and history of the building and people-watch.

When I was younger, I used to refuse to stand, but then I discovered that makes other people quite uncomfortable. So that's not right for me to do. But kneeling is only reserved for those who wish to pray.

This is exactly how I go about such occasions too. I still have people saying would you not kneel, put hands together etc. but I say I think it would be offensive to a true believer for me to mockingly go through the motions of something they consider sacred.

Bob Cratchet

Whatever your religion or none, there comes a time when you have to attend the services of friends / relatives that do not have the same beliefs as you do.

I just stand when they stand, sit when they sit. Generally I don't know what to do with my hands, so I just keep them loosely together, as it's still not praying. I just have a subtle look around at the art/architecture.

Non Catholics should not bless themselves, or kneel, nor are they expected to.

Turtwig

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Non Catholics should not bless themselves, or kneel, nor are they expected to.

:pac:

Bob Cratchet

Malty_T wrote: »

:pac:

Dr. Loon

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

I just stand when they stand, sit when they sit. Generally I don't know what to do with my hands, so I just keep them loosely together, as it's still not praying. I just have a subtle look around at the art/architecture.

Why the standing though? I've done the same myself, and I wonder, "Why am I standing?" Not to stick out like a sore thumb maybe.

Ellis Dee

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Nice moves, Bob!:)

Sorry I don't know how to post a YouTube link properly, but here's some more foot-tapping stuff on the same theme for you. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKWI41G8h_A

Magic Beans

moonboy52 wrote: »

As the Jesuit qoute went:

"Give me the child, and I will mould the man."

"Give me the child for seven years,
and I will give you the man."

"Give me the child until he is
seven and I care not who has him thereafter."

"Give me the child till the age of seven
and I will show you the man."

That is the exact philosophy behind the Happy Meal. Is Ronald McDonald a Jesuit?
Whosoever eats this burger and drinks this coke shall have life everlasting and a small toy.

seamus

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Why the standing though? I've done the same myself, and I wonder, "Why am I standing?" Not to stick out like a sore thumb maybe.

As I mentioned above, I've found that not standing makes other people quite uncomfortable and self-conscious, and gives the impression that you're deliberately being belligerant. Which, if you were younger and being made to go to mass, I guess would be a valid thing.

But presumably you're attending because it's a special event of a friend or family member, so belligerance doesn't come into it - if you want to protest, then simply don't go.

So in that regard, I believe it very rude to do something which makes everyone else uncomfortable, so I stand when they stand. Kneeling isn't the same, though I do sit forward slightly so the guy behind isn't praying directly into the back of my head.

CerebralCortex

seamus wrote: »

As I mentioned above, I've found that not standing makes other people quite uncomfortable and self-conscious, and gives the impression that you're deliberately being belligerant. Which, if you were younger and being made to go to mass, I guess would be a valid thing.

But presumably you're attending because it's a special event of a friend or family member, so belligerance doesn't come into it - if you want to protest, then simply don't go.

So in that regard, I believe it very rude to do something which makes everyone else uncomfortable, so I stand when they stand. Kneeling isn't the same, though I do sit forward slightly so the guy behind isn't praying directly into the back of my head.

I'm going to a wedding next weekend and I'll do the same as I did the last time, sit quietly and listen. Nothing belligerent in that.

robindch

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm going to a wedding next weekend [...]

Have you considered "Speaking in Tongues"?

Skip to 7:30:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkn1BilNhmc

yawha

Ernesto Rancid Market wrote: »

All I meant was I was raised as a Catholic. Was baptised, made communion & confirmation etc... but don't practice any more. I'm not saying I have no belief though. So I wouldn't know how to classify myself.

So call yourself a Deist or a non-denominational Christian or whatever actually describes your belief. "non-practicing Catholic" means nothing. It's like a meat eater saying they're a non-practicing Vegetarian.

axer

robindch wrote: »

Have you considered "Speaking in Tongues"?

And here was me thinking you were proposing breaking into some Justin Bieber :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugEYxqd9RGQ

the culture of deference

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Whatever your religion or none, there comes a time when you have to attend the services of friends / relatives that do not have the same beliefs as you do..

Simple you sit down, you do not take part in the ceremony, you do not stand or kneel or acknowledge anyone else. I have prod friends and this is what they do in a RC mass.

My own personal solution is simpler, I meet you outside the church after the ceremony

the culture of deference

axer wrote: »

So he starts off "in the name of the father...." and without thinking I found myself making the start prayer gestures along with everyone then after a second or two thinking to myself "what are you doing?".

What do I do? I fear I am still susceptible to the cult!

Ever happen to you?

At work one day we went off in the car to go to lunch, we passed the graveyard in maynooth and the guy in the passenger seat did squiggly hand thing around his nose and mouth, it was strange to see and he didn't realise that he had done it. He was an atheist.

Rockn

I did that last time I was at a christening. I was zoned out at the end and then.. "In the name of the father..." I found myself blessing myself and thinking "WTF am I doing?". I could just imagine my parents beside me thinking, "Ahh see he does really believe". I've no problem doing the sitting, standing, kneeling bit though. For the people who won't go through the motions, do you do the hand-shaking part? Or is it:
"Peace be with you..."
:mad:"Feck off I'm an athiest!"

axer

Rockn wrote: »

"Peace be with you..."
:mad:"Feck off I'm an athiest!"

I like to say "Wa 'alaikum salaam" back just to shake things up a little.

recedite

seamus wrote: »

I do sit forward slightly so the guy behind isn't praying directly into the back of my head.

If you are worried about the adverse effects of this on your brain, line the insde of a large wide brimmed flowery hat*, (or a bishop's mitre* if you are a male) with tinfoil. Should keep you safe.

*No other type of hats are allowed to be worn inside a church.

gman2k

I was at a wedding recently, I found keeping the arms folded an easy way to keep accidental hand movements at bay!
I sat when they sat, stood when they stood, and shook hands with a few strangers, no problems there - I survived.
No way will I kneel down though, so sat when they were at that crack, which made it a little awkward for the person behind me, but they lived!
I do have to stop myself from mouthing blah blah blah during the reciting prayers bit though. It's something that annoys the wife :-)

Bob Cratchet

gman2k wrote: »

I do have to stop myself from mouthing blah blah blah during the reciting prayers bit though. It's something that annoys the wife :-)

Why the insecurity ? When invited to attend ceremonies I have no belief in, to mark a friend or family members occasion, I just attend out of politeness and friendship, but I don't feel the need to try and disrupt them for others. I'm quite secure in my own beliefs so other beliefs don't bother me in the slightest.

gman2k

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Why the insecurity ? When invited to attend ceremonies I have no belief in, to mark a friend or family members occasion, I just attend out of politeness and friendship, but I don't feel the need to try and disrupt them for others. I'm quite secure in my own beliefs so other beliefs don't bother me in the slightest.

I silently mouth blah blah blah, just in case years of indoctrination kicks in......
Who said anything about disrupting things?
I'm glad you are secure, and have told us. :rolleyes:

Bob Cratchet

gman2k wrote: »

I silently mouth blah blah blah, just in case years of indoctrination kicks in......
Who said anything about disrupting things?
I'm glad you are secure, and have told us. :rolleyes:

Just highlighting the contrast. Strange you have to go "blah blah blah", do you stick your fingers in your ears as well. lol what are you afraid of ?

zico10

I'm teaching English in a school in Thailand at the moment and it's currently sports week in the school. I was watching a game of basketball, when one of the students, was awarded a free. Before taking the free, the student, whom I would be 99.9% certain was a Buddhist, blessed himself.

He missed

.