South Africa: Still a destination for emigrants?

unclejunior

Is south africa still a destination for european emigrants or have those days come to end since the good old days of apartheid?

Trevor451

In before the lock...

El Weirdo

unclejunior wrote: »

Is south africa still a destination for european emigrants or have those days come to end since the good old days of apartheid?

But... you're blick.

Depends on what you can do!

Benny_Cake

I know of one person who moved out there a year ago and has no intention of coming back,he married a South African though.I believe there are a lot of people who have retired to South Africa,or who are involved in certain professions or tourism etc.I've heard there were also a considerable number of Eastern Europeans and Russians who moved there in the late 1990s,I'm not sure if that's a trend that has continued.Needless to say you can't just walk off the plane and into a job based on your skin pigmentation anymore,and jobs can be difficult enough to find even for locals.

unclejunior

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends on what you can do!

would there be much demand for college grads out there?

Benny_Cake

El Weirdo wrote: »

But... you're blick.

Thanks for reminding me - classic scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v4CFjrjBxc

dsmythy

A certain percentage of black people have to be given new jobs that are created so if you're not black you may be at a disadvantage unless you're highly skilled.

ejmaztec

unclejunior wrote: »

would there be much demand for college grads out there?

Only if they got the degree at Fort Bragg.

unclejunior

ejmaztec wrote: »

Only if they got the degree at Fort Bragg.

how do u mean?

ejmaztec

unclejunior wrote: »

how do u mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bragg_(North_Carolina)

Richard Hillman

I wouldnt emigrate my piss to the kip

later12

It's hard to find a job which is fully tax and visa compliant, but it is relatively easy to find work as a waiter or a barman in Cape Town, for example... you probably won't be paying taxes, though.

It's also very easy to get an SA passport if you open your own business down there.

unclejunior

later10 wrote: »

It's hard to find a job which is fully tax and visa compliant, but it is relatively easy to find work as a waiter or a barman in Cape Town, for example... you probably won't be paying taxes, though.

It's also very easy to get an SA passport if you open your own business down there.

have u lived there before?

later12

No, I have family living there, there is still a small but close knit Irish expat community in Cape Town particularly. Unemployment is a big problem, but the old racial relics still remain and it seems to me, as an outsider, that the preference for whites is not one that has gone away.

South Africa is still an extremely racist place. Apartheid is only officially dead. And while black South Africans may have a greater legislative say in the country, whites still have a big commercial interest, in the Western Cape particularly and along the coast. So although it does have high unemployment, I would fancy my chances of finding work in S.A. a lot more as a white guy.

I'm not saying that any of this is right or fair, but it does seem to be a consistent experience.

unclejunior

later10 wrote: »

No, I have family living there, there is still a small but close knit Irish expat community in Cape Town particularly. Unemployment is a big problem, but the old racial relics still remain and it seems to me, as an outsider, that the preference for whites is not one that has gone away.

South Africa is still an extremely racist place. Apartheid is only officially dead. And while black South Africans may have a greater legislative say in the country, whites still have a big commercial interest, in the Western Cape particularly and along the coast. So although it does have high unemployment, I would fancy my chances of finding work in S.A. a lot more as a white guy.

I'm not saying that any of this is right or fair, but it does seem to be a consistent experience.

thats great to hear. its a shame that such a beautiful country has become so violent. im hoping to move out there next year.

Benny_Cake

later10 wrote: »

No, I have family living there, there is still a small but close knit Irish expat community in Cape Town particularly. Unemployment is a big problem, but the old racial relics still remain and it seems to me, as an outsider, that the preference for whites is not one that has gone away.

South Africa is still an extremely racist place. Apartheid is only officially dead. And while black South Africans may have a greater legislative say in the country, whites still have a big commercial interest, in the Western Cape particularly and along the coast. So although it does have high unemployment, I would fancy my chances of finding work in S.A. a lot more as a white guy.

I'm not saying that any of this is right or fair, but it does seem to be a consistent experience.

I read an article a while back about a study which gives some weight to this-that there is residual discrimination against blacks in the Western Cape in terms of job opportunities(unofficial of course). This didn't appear to be the case in Gauteng or other provinces and Western Cape is something of an anomoly in that blacks are a minority of the population overall. Will try and dig it up if I can.

miss no stars

having travelled there I can say that it is an absolutely beautiful country, but are you sure you want to LIVE there?


I may be wrong, but I've been told by several people that if you buy property there you can't take the money out of the country if you sell. A consideration if you se yourself settling down but then moving on.


I'd also say that you REALLY should consider the AIDS situation. http://www.avert.org/aidssouthafrica.htm gives some statistics. South Africa is a third world country. What if you're in a car crash? Do you REALLY want to be treated in a country where so many people are HIV positive?


If you don't find it offputting fair enough, it's a lovely country. I'd love to go back and visit but with the violence and instability, not to mention the health risks, I'd be hesitant. Even moreso to live there.

mandrake04

I work with 3 South Africans, they have the same story it's a violent place and they are not going back. One guy said he can't wait to get his Aussie passport because he is just going to burn his RSA one.

Told me that some McDonalds close a 6pm just to avoid been held up, he worked in the medical Dianostic equipment industry and also mentioned that the operators don't give a damn wether the equipment works properly or not. The place has also a high level of HIV and other diseases.

Mena

I'll swop, you can have my SA passport and I'll take yours

JONJO THE MISER

I know a few south Africans, one is a very close friend, they all say the same thing, that they could never go back there again.

later12

mandrake04 wrote: »

I work with 3 South Africans, they have the same story it's a violent place and they are not going back. One guy said he can't wait to get his Aussie passport because he is just going to burn his RSA one.

Told me that some McDonalds close a 6pm just to avoid been held up, he worked in the medical Dianostic equipment industry and also mentioned that the operators don't give a damn wether the equipment works properly or not. The place has also a high level of HIV and other diseases.

It depends where you go. People shouldnt talk about SA like it is one homogenous bloc.

The Western Cape, or Cape Town specifically, is closer to Buenos Aires than to Johannesburg in cultural terms. Most people will be looking to go somewhere like CT or Joburg, where amenities, salaries and the quality of life (once you are wealthy by SA standards) are totally incomparable with facilities in other provincial cities. There is a massive difference between being rich and poor in SA, or between being black or white.

I know one guy who came back from SA about a decade ago. Although he loved it there, and he had a fantastic quality of life for very little money by our standards, he said he couldnt bear to go through each day not knowing if his kids got home ok from school, or if his house was burgled while his wife was home alone. The man is still very wary of people walking close behind him in the street in Ireland, because he has been so conditioned to worry for his personal safety.

Anyway, there are pros and cons to living there, like all places. With South Africa, both the pros and the cons are just quite magnified.

dfx-

I wouldn't necessarily trust an emigrated South African on whether to go there. Been there 5 times, would love to move there..perhaps not a city centre or Johannesburg or Durban, but anywhere on the coast between Cape Town and East London certainly.

What has put me off (and I have been there several times and sorely tempted to move) is the affirmative action and associated positive discrimination - especially under Mbeki, dunno so much under Zuma, but presumably the same. And when I stayed in a town where there had just been a murder of a white woman farmer by raiders, the atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia was poisonous.

mandrake04

later10 wrote: »

It depends where you go. People shouldnt talk about SA like it is one homogenous bloc.

The Western Cape, or Cape Town specifically, is closer to Buenos Aires than to Johannesburg in cultural terms. Most people will be looking to go somewhere like CT or Joburg, where amenities, salaries and the quality of life (once you are wealthy by SA standards) are totally incomparable with facilities in other provincial cities. There is a massive difference between being rich and poor in SA, or between being black or white.

I know one guy who came back from SA about a decade ago. Although he loved it there, and he had a fantastic quality of life for very little money by our standards, he said he couldnt bear to go through each day not knowing if his kids got home ok from school, or if his house was burgled while his wife was home alone. The man is still very wary of people walking close behind him in the street in Ireland, because he has been so conditioned to worry for his personal safety.

Anyway, there are pros and cons to living there, like all places. With South Africa, both the pros and the cons are just quite magnified.

1 is from CT the other 2 are from near J'Burg/Pretoria.

Faith+1

With over 50% unemployment, ANC corruption, the highest % of rape in the world, over 5 million have HIV. Yeah SA truely is the Rainbow nation.

JONJO THE MISER

Going to turn out the same way as zimbabwe and that is a fact.

Nodin

...glad to see we're closing on an optimistic note.

anto2

I know a white family moved to Ireland and lived in a Car in winter in Dublin just to get away from SA .They had a young son in a low paying job and he had a house share in Blanch .

dpe

Mate of mine lives in Jo'burg (I lived there myself when I was a kid), he's English and married to a South African and I know he's been salting away money back in the EU for the "inevitable" (his words) day when they have to leave. He has a lovely house and a great lifestyle, but he doesn't think there's a chance it will last.

Stinicker

South Africa was a great country one time and was probably given higher preference for Emigration than Australia back in the day as it was a nearer destination to Sail to. White settlers made it into a great country however with the end of Apartheid came the collapse of a great economy, many of the black people who are now unemployed were employed back in the day, there was health care and law & order. All the South African people I have ever met have pretty negative views of their homeland and how things were better in the past before the natives took control.

Similarly in Zimbabwe a country with massive economic output and some of the worlds best farmland, both SA and Zimbabwe were excellent under white rule however when the native peoples took control they just reverted to a typical African tinpot dictatorships and the amount of white settlers that have been brutalised and killed on both countries in frightening. A common urban myth there is that if you are infected by Aids you can get rid of the virus by raping a virgin. I think a woman is raped in South Africa every three minutes and white people have taken to living in gated communities and armed themselves to the teeth to prevent this and other sorts of crimes.

The native south africans so far have proven they are doing a bad job of ruling themselves and time will tell if this remains the case. I done alot of research into SA as I had planned to travel there this time last year for the World Cup until Thierry Henry robbed Ireland. SA is very unsafe and I couldn't see why any white person would want to travel to a country where they are so discriminated against there. Unless you were on some sort of high paying short term contract work I wouldn't go there.

Nodin

Stinicker wrote: »

South Africa was a great country one time and was probably given higher preference for Emigration than Australia back in the day as it was a nearer destination to Sail to. White settlers made it into a great country however with the end of Apartheid came the collapse of a great economy, many of the black people who are now unemployed were employed back in the day, there was health care and law & order. All the South African people I have ever met have pretty negative views of their homeland and how things were better in the past before the natives took control. .

...bollocks. "health care and law & order" in the townships my fucking arse.

El Weirdo

Stinicker wrote: »

South Africa was a great country one time and was probably given higher preference for Emigration than Australia back in the day as it was a nearer destination to Sail to. White settlers made it into a great country however with the end of Apartheid came the collapse of a great economy, many of the black people who are now unemployed were employed back in the day, there was health care and law & order. All the South African people I have ever met have pretty negative views of their homeland and how things were better in the past before the natives took control.

Similarly in Zimbabwe a country with massive economic output and some of the worlds best farmland, both SA and Zimbabwe were excellent under white rule however when the native peoples took control they just reverted to a typical African tinpot dictatorships and the amount of white settlers that have been brutalised and killed on both countries in frightening. A common urban myth there is that if you are infected by Aids you can get rid of the virus by raping a virgin. I think a woman is raped in South Africa every three minutes and white people have taken to living in gated communities and armed themselves to the teeth to prevent this and other sorts of crimes.

The native south africans so far have proven they are doing a bad job of ruling themselves and time will tell if this remains the case. I done alot of research into SA as I had planned to travel there this time last year for the World Cup until Thierry Henry robbed Ireland. SA is very unsafe and I couldn't see why any white person would want to travel to a country where they are so discriminated against there. Unless you were on some sort of high paying short term contract work I wouldn't go there.

Are you saying that Apartheid was a good thing?

Because it certainly sounds like it.

oppenheimer1

El Weirdo wrote: »

Are you saying that Apartheid was a good thing?

Because it certainly sounds like it.

I think hes saying SA had a better economy under apartheid. I don't think hes moralising it, just stating a fact.

Nodin

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think hes saying SA had a better economy under apartheid. I don't think hes moralising it, just stating a fact.

His facts happen not to be facts however.

Stinicker

El Weirdo wrote: »

Are you saying that Apartheid was a good thing?

Because it certainly sounds like it.

Apartheid was good for white people in that they were protected, ultimately it was bad for the natives but under Apartheid the economy was better, despite the embargos etc. Apartheid never really ended in South Africa, the teams just switched sides, now it is White people who are discriminated against and the economy of the entire region is going to hell in a canoe.

The authorities in SA wanted the white players to be removed from the SA Rugby team despite they being the best players in the world, this tells you the sort of racism that exists down there.

The Americans and Australians effectively had their own version of Apartheid in their own countries as did the British in Ireland.

Nodin

Stinicker wrote: »

Apartheid was good for white people in that they were protected, ultimately it was bad for the natives but under Apartheid the economy was better.........

....for the governing elite, based on race. There was no health care and the poor were herded into bantustans. The poverty and inequality in SA is a legacy of apartheid.

Benny_Cake

Stinicker wrote: »

Apartheid was good for white people in that they were protected, ultimately it was bad for the natives but under Apartheid the economy was better, despite the embargos etc. Apartheid never really ended in South Africa, the teams just switched sides, now it is White people who are discriminated against and the economy of the entire region is going to hell in a canoe.

The authorities in SA wanted the white players to be removed from the SA Rugby team despite they being the best players in the world, this tells you the sort of racism that exists down there.

The Americans and Australians effectively had their own version of Apartheid in their own countries as did the British in Ireland.

So Apartheid = good racism then, Black Economic Empowerment = bad racism. And GDP growth of 4.8% in the first quarter of the year doesn't quite match what I would see as "going to hell in a canoe": http://www.tradingeconomics.com/south-africa/gdp-growth

Blobby George

later10 wrote: »

The man is still very wary of people walking close behind him in the street in Ireland, because he has been so conditioned to worry for his personal safety.

Is he living in Limerick?

El Weirdo

Stinicker wrote: »

Apartheid was good for white people in that they were protected, ultimately it was bad for the natives but under Apartheid the economy was better, despite the embargos etc. Apartheid never really ended in South Africa, the teams just switched sides, now it is White people who are discriminated against and the economy of the entire region is going to hell in a canoe.

The authorities in SA wanted the white players to be removed from the SA Rugby team despite they being the best players in the world, this tells you the sort of racism that exists down there.

I'm sorry, but you can't compare the way the blacks and coloureds were treated during Apartheid with they way whites are being treated under the new regime.

Black and coloureds had it a little worse than not being allowed to play rugby for SA.

Stinicker

Stinicker wrote: »

Apartheid was good for white people in that they were protected, ultimately it was bad for the natives but under Apartheid the economy was better, despite the embargos etc. Apartheid never really ended in South Africa, the teams just switched sides, now it is White people who are discriminated against and the economy of the entire region is going to hell in a canoe.

The authorities in SA wanted the white players to be removed from the SA Rugby team despite they being the best players in the world, this tells you the sort of racism that exists down there.

The Americans and Australians effectively had their own version of Apartheid in their own countries as did the British in Ireland.

No they didnt, they wanted a certain quota number. This is still in place, mainly seen on the subs bench.

Stinicker

Nodin wrote: »

....for the governing elite, based on race. There was no health care and the poor were herded into bantustans. The poverty and inequality in SA is a legacy of apartheid.

I disagree, had South Africa never been colonised like Ethiopia it would still be a basket case like Ethiopia and much of Africa today, if it had joined the other African countries in the 1960's and became Independent of the White man it would probably have become another tin-pot dictatorship where the elite would be black instead of white and the poor would still remain the same, South Africa caught up with its neighbours in this regard when Mandela took over and instead of white people in charge you had the locals in charge and things started going downhill for White people shortly afterwards, as anything that goes wrong they are scapegoated or in Zimbabwe's case just ethnically cleansed.

When Ireland won Independence in 1922, we killed and ran the British out of here. We then got a Fianna Fail regime that paraylsed the country for years and installed a Catholic Dictatorship which made any non Catholic out to be the anti-Christ; they wrecked the economy multiple times. The similarities between Ireland and South Africa pre & post colonisation are remarkable, they got the Aids epidemic and Ireland had the TB epidemic. Apartheid was wrong, however I still think SA would be in a bad place today if the White Man never started meddling there.

Benny_Cake

Team photo from last year. As you can see 10% of the population are being very unfairly discriminated against.:rolleyes:

Benny_Cake

Stinicker wrote: »

I disagree, had South Africa never been colonised like Ethiopia it would still be a basket case like Ethiopia and much of Africa today, if it had joined the other African countries in the 1960's and became Independent of the White man it would probably have become another tin-pot dictatorship where the elite would be black instead of white and the poor would still remain the same, South Africa caught up with its neighbours in this regard when Mandela took over and instead of white people in charge you had the locals in charge and things started going downhill for White people shortly afterwards, as anything that goes wrong they are scapegoated or in Zimbabwe's case just ethnically cleansed.

When Ireland won Independence in 1922, we killed and ran the British out of here. We then got a Fianna Fail regime that paraylsed the country for years and installed a Catholic Dictatorship which made any non Catholic out to be the anti-Christ; they wrecked the economy multiple times. The similarities between Ireland and South Africa pre & post colonisation are remarkable, they got the Aids epidemic and Ireland had the TB epidemic. Apartheid was wrong, however I still think SA would be in a bad place today if the White Man never started meddling there.

Ireland was a "Catholic dictatorship". Really - you sure about that?Catholic church had way too much influence-sure.But a dictatorship?!

Also,the notion that white South Africans are not "local" is a new one on me,and I wouldn't mention it in a bar if you ever pluck up the courage to head over there (how many tourists were murdered during the World Cup by the way).

Think you need to consider your thesis a bit harder.

later12

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Team photo from last year. As you can see 10% of the population are being very unfairly discriminated against.:rolleyes:

How do you know they are being discriminated against? There are lots of cultural possibilities as to why rugby is still a whites-dominated sport in South Africa.

One reason is that black kids just don't want to identify themselves with it - not everyone of all backgrounds grew up with rugby, yes partially for racial reasons, but also one has to consider family reasons and school reasons. Not everybody enjoys rugby the same amount.

It's similar to the way that in Ireland rugby has traditionally had a disproportionately high selection from voluntary schools. Colour in those on the Irish team who attended fee paying schools white, and colour those who attended non fee paying schools black, and see what results you come up with.

Benny_Cake

later10 wrote: »

How do you know they are being discriminated against? There are lots of cultural possibilities as to why rugby is still a whites-dominated sport in South Africa.

One reason is that black kids just don't want to identify themselves with it - not everyone of all backgrounds grew up with rugby, yes partially for racial reasons, but also one has to consider family reasons and school reasons. Not everybody enjoys rugby the same amount.

It's similar to the way that in Ireland rugby has traditionally had a disproportionately high selection from voluntary schools. Colour in those on the Irish team who attended fee paying schools white, and colour those who attended non fee paying schools black, and see what results you come up with.

Think you misunderstood - it seemed as if some posters were comparing modest efforts at increasing the representation of non-white players with Apartheid.I don't think there is any discrimination going on at all,it is likely that rugby will be a largely "white" sport for some time to come,although it would be better for the Springboks if this was to change over time. Completely agree with your point about the Irish team btw!

Nodin

Stinicker wrote: »

I disagree, had (......)ethnically cleansed.
.

Your assertion re the economy was disproved in an earlier post.

Stinicker wrote: »

When Ireland won Independence in 1922, we killed and ran the British out of here. .

Funny, we never covered that in history in my day. Perhaps you might link to a source so I might educate myself.

Stinicker wrote: »

We then got a Fianna Fail regime that paraylsed the country for years and installed a Catholic Dictatorship .

...the first fianna fail government was elected 10 years after independence.

What was the name of the countrys first 'catholic dictator'?

fiona12

I'm South African, I am not joining the pissing contest up there about apartheid - In my opinion, if you haven't been there, and lived it, you shouldn't really comment. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but please ensure that you have the correct facts before voicing your opinion.

As for living in South Africa, I haven't lived there for over 10 years, and I wouldn't go back if you paid me, not the way things are at the moment. I miss it so much that I still get cry when I hear a South African song or think of my childhood.

I think it is so sad that I can't return to my home country, and that is not because I don't want to, it's because I really can't. I can't imagine what it must feel like to always be worried about your children - whether they are safe.

Every single South African person I know, knows someone that has been raped, murdered, hijacked, robbed, etc