1 Joule muzzle energy limit in Ireland

mack_the_knife

Hi,

Last week i purchased a Jing Gong G3A3 AEG airsoft gun online. The muzzle velocity on the website was given as 338 Feet per second (fps).

I calculated the muzzle energy using: KE = 0.5*0.0002*(103)^2 ≈ 1.06 J ≈ 1 J

where 0.0002 is mass of BB in kg and 103 is muzzle velocity in meters per second.

I now see UPS tracking says: "The shipment is being held by brokerage for reasons beyond UPS' control / Delivery rescheduled" in Shannon.

I am just worried that the gun is being held up in Custom because of the energy. Should this muzzle energy be OK (i.e. not mean the airsoft gun is classed as firearm)?

Thanks.

Firekitten

Probably just getting done for tax... happens.

Stonewolf

If it's 338fps/103mps then it's illegal and if chrono'd by the Gardai at such will be destroyed.

The limit is 328fps or 100m/s.

Inari

The whole 328fps is a measurement of the maximum permissible speed of a 0.20g BB. In fact, it has to be firing at less than 328fps with a 0.20g BB. There is no leeway in the law for "just a little bit over" - the responsibility is on you to ensure it is firing under the joule. Japanese manufacturers usually make guns to fire circa 280fps to obey the law. In Ireland there seems to be an ethos of "Ah, sure it's grand" whereas in reality, it's really not fine.

That said, you will probably get your rifle, provided it isn't sent to Garda Ballistics. If you do get it, your first port of call should be to get it illegal - until it is, you will be unable to skirmish with it, and it will remain (in the eyes of the law), an illegal firearm.

mack_the_knife

Thanks guys.

Interesting because my friend just purchased a M4 airsoft rifle in a airsoft shop in Ireland and the specs of this rifle say the muzzle velocity is 330 FPS (which is 100.58 m/s) and I calculate a muzzle energy of 1.01 J for a 0.2 g BB! He did not need to to have a firearm license to purchase it, so there does seem to be some leeway.

Also there must be a uncertainty in the equipment used to measure the muzzle energy of an airsoft gun (e.g. for ballistics pendulum overestimation error can occur if you assume a totally inelastic collision but the projectile actually bounces off the pendulum) and therefore some tolerance on the 1 J (e.g. 1 J +/- 10% or whatever), in practice...

Witcher

mack_the_knife wrote: »

Thanks guys.

Interesting because my friend just purchased a M4 airsoft rifle in a airsoft shop in Ireland and the specs of this rifle say the muzzle velocity is 330 FPS (which is 100.58 m/s) and I calculate a muzzle energy of 1.01 J for a 0.2 g BB! He did not need to to have a firearm license to purchase it, so there does seem to be some leeway.

Did it say 330fps on the box?

Usually that's the fps before it's downgraded for import here, they just don't change the boxes to reflect the lower power.

mack_the_knife

Blay wrote: »

Did it say 330fps on the box?

Usually that's the fps before it's downgraded for import here, they just don't change the boxes to reflect the lower power.

Yes this was the spec. on the box and a website. Ok, so Irish airsoft shops actually reduce the gun muzzle energy prior to sale?

Witcher

mack_the_knife wrote: »

Yes this was the spec. on the box and a website. Ok, so Irish airsoft shops actually reduce the gun muzzle energy prior to sale?

They're downgraded abroad by resellers/wholesalers etc. before they get imported here. Even retailers here can't import guns over 1J.

Firekitten

With a drill!





















*runs*

mack_the_knife

Firekitten wrote: »

With a drill!




*runs*

I prefer the hammer approach
There's nothing you can't solve with one...

mack_the_knife

By the way, from what I've read this 1 J limit seems to be loosely based on a study of BB pellet eye penetration.

However, it seems (based on one source) the energy would need to be below 13 m/s / 0.03 J (and the BB would only travel a lame 7 meters or so!) to completely avoid "ocular contusion". At about 62 m/s there is "injury at the vitreous base and retinal tear". At 72 m/s the BB "penetrates the globe (of the eye)".

Another recent study looked at penetration or rupture of an eye using pig eyes suspended in ballistics gelatin and found that "Airsoft guns capable of achieving velocities in excess of 99 m/s using conventional 6-mm airsoft ammunition (will result in penetration or rupture of an eye) "

Obviously wearing eye protection is a must!!...and we all know that.

Firekitten

we all know about the studies, but your calculations or not, its the law. Not much will change that one.

mack_the_knife

Firekitten wrote: »

we all know about the studies, but your calculations or not, its the law. Not much will change that one.

Oh i totally agree. The law is the law and it should be abided!

MerryDespot

Only the dude abides...

Airsoft Reloded

I once witnessed a person getting shot in the eye at point blank range from an aeg firing at .97 with .2 bbs, brought the person to hospital and there was absolutely no injury at all, temporary or permanent.

The law is the law and it won't change but it should be like England with higher fps allowances for snipers but with engagement distance rules.

mack_the_knife wrote: »

By the way, from what I've read this 1 J limit seems to be loosely based on a study of BB pellet eye penetration.

However, it seems (based on one source) the energy would need to be below 13 m/s / 0.03 J (and the BB would only travel a lame 7 meters or so!) to completely avoid "ocular contusion". At about 62 m/s there is "injury at the vitreous base and retinal tear". At 72 m/s the BB "penetrates the globe (of the eye)".

Another recent study looked at penetration or rupture of an eye using pig eyes suspended in ballistics gelatin and found that "Airsoft guns capable of achieving velocities in excess of 99 m/s using conventional 6-mm airsoft ammunition (will result in penetration or rupture of an eye) "

Obviously wearing eye protection is a must!!...and we all know that.

mack_the_knife

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

I once witnessed a person getting shot in the eye at point blank range from an aeg firing at .97 with .2 bbs, brought the person to hospital and there was absolutely no injury at all, temporary or permanent.

The law is the law and it won't change but it should be like England with higher fps allowances for snipers but with engagement distance rules.

I think it's misleading and unhelpful to post things like this. I don't believe this person took a 0.97 J muzzle energy (?) BB directly in the eye and was not injured.

Leftyflip

mack_the_knife wrote: »

I think it's misleading and unhelpful to post things like this. I don't believe this person took a 0.97 J muzzle energy (?) BB directly in the eye and was not injured.

Well it's hardly advocating not wearing eye protection - it's possible that the individual mentioned was not seriously injured - hell, people have been shot in the head with pistols and lived - anything is possible in life, with the right amount of luck.

Inari

I sincerely doubt Brian would make that up. Studies were conducted which showed you needed a minimum of 1.3j of muzzle energy to penetrate the soft tissue of the eye. Mack has quoted studies that say otherwise.

You can quote studies to back any perspective or point of view up. So how do you arrive at an educated and evolved conclusion? Simply put, it has to do with the validity and reputation of the study, as well as the method used to conduct said study.

Puding

there are 101 variables which will effect the effects of a bb, as with a bb hitting skin it depends massively on angle and heath of the skin for example, a 1j should not in theory penetrate skin based on force and the strength of human skin, but its not that simple reality is very different

a 1j bb should not penetrate an eye but you still have a massive change of injury to the eye ball and permanent damage, your eye sight is not something to be taken lightly and get complacent with 'studies' and 'examples of people being fine'

MerryDespot

What Puding said.
This is the main reason why all sites are strict in their enforcement of proper eye protection. Proper googles/eye protection and all the theoretical notions about energy levels needed to damage the eye are moot. It then becomes an argument about what forces is needed to penetrate googles - and that's a much easier argument: much higher than 1j.

mack_the_knife

Inari wrote: »

I sincerely doubt Brian would make that up. Studies were conducted which showed you needed a minimum of 1.3j of muzzle energy to penetrate the soft tissue of the eye. Mack has quoted studies that say otherwise.

You can quote studies to back any perspective or point of view up. So how do you arrive at an educated and evolved conclusion? Simply put, it has to do with the validity and reputation of the study, as well as the method used to conduct said study.

I did not say that i thought he made this up. What i did say is that i didn't believe a 0.97 J BB hit the eye directly and did not cause any damage. I would surmise that: 1) the person's blink reaction caused the eye lid to close and provide some sort of protection or 2) they turned their head at the instant of the shot or 3) there was some sort of gun malfunction and the BB energy was in fact much less.

You misunderstand me. I am trying to be purely objective regarding the max. BB energy for eye penetration and if you could point me in the direction of a third study which shows that the energy required is > 1 J i would apprieciate it. Sorry for not referencing the two i refered to earlier.

I would be in favour of the max permissible muzzle energy (1 J) being increased with the use of adequate eye protection and the use of a min. range of engagement in airsoft skirmishes.

Leftyflip

mack_the_knife wrote: »

I would be in favour of the max permissible muzzle energy (1 J) being increased with the use of adequate eye protection and the use of a min. range of engagement in airsoft skirmishes.

I wouldn't, when lads can behave and understand the concept of "semi up close" and "no full auto to sore spots" and similar - I still wouldn't. There's some people I don't trust at one joule never mind any higher.

TerrenceAnth

Id love a sight to have a game with higher velocity aeg's (i know this isnt going to happen with the 1j limit) im just saying it would be fun more people would take it seriously and not just do a mad charge. Yes they are fun.

On another note the only way i would walk into a game with higher velocity aeg's is if people didnt full auto you untill you where in a little ball crying and if people did not aim for the head.

sliabh

TerrenceAnth wrote: »

Id love a sign to have a game with higher velocity aeg's (i know this isnt going to happen with the 1j limit) im just saying it would be fun more people would take it seriously and not just do a mad charge. Yes they are fun.

I play in Austria where there is no legal power limit. By gentleman's agreement clubs stick to 450 FPS and up to 550 for snipers. It makes little difference as far as I can see. Certainly I wouldn't describe it as more "fun". In fact I would have to say that the quality of most airsoft games in this country are ****e compared to what is played in Ireland.

The power rating of your gun is not what makes things better on the day.

TheDoc

Bottom line?

You'll get your gun, with a bit of tax on board.

Lets not be naive here, everyone and their mother knows you can import **** into this country as a sole purchaser at way over the limit.I'd say just about every airsoft site has plenty of people that have bought stuff abroad that came in hot as hell.Yes the law is 1 joule but realistically it doesn't seem to be that strictly enforced if I am to be totally honest.

It is Ireland at the end of the day, there is the shock reaction of " what is this yoke" and once it doesn't fire a bullet, nobody really gives a ****.As proven by the pretty laid back customs officials that work airports and ports.

Probably be a little backlash to the above, but for far too long there has been severe cotton wooling of what actually happens in regards to what you "should" do and what you"can do".If you can get a rifle in abroad, that is over the limit, downgrade it for when you play on a site and save yourself a penny, good stuff, thats a win.And what actually happens is that some bloke gives the rifle a look, whips on the tax and then ships it out to you.

I've got two pistols that are about 2 years missing in customs that are way under the limit, complete right off, €300 down the swanny.

I also got a pistol in delivered to my door by UPS in 2009 chronoed at 490fps, so lets get real

Arkslippy

I don't know where you are coming from specifically on this andc what your agenda is, but the rule on 1j is based on a limit which would be a base line safe limit for the game.

It's not the energy required to pierce an eyeball specifically but a limit where a hit would safely not pierce which is a subtle difference.

If you are a.serious airsofter who plays regularly you must have been hit on exposed skin on the face at least once and had your skin ruptured and marked with blood.

Imagine that hit on your eyeball. The spinning bb would do a lot of damage.

The rule is fine as it is and raising it would drive some casual players away. The 1j rule on aeg is actually the prevailing rule in most countries outside of south east Asia. Even in countries where its not specifically stated, it is the agreed rule like sliabh arsed.

In reality I could probably drive at 100mph all day and never have an accident on a motorway. Doesn't mean I should though.

Lemming

TheDoc wrote: »

It is Ireland at the end of the day, there is the shock reaction of " what is this yoke" and once it doesn't fire a bullet, nobody really gives a ****.As proven by the pretty laid back customs officials that work airports and ports.

I don't think you appreciate just how close you were to walking out of Dublin airport without your guns on the way back from Berget 7 dude.

Only for the fact that myself & Kdouglas had a quiet (sane) word with the airport worker in question - who was surrounded by some very irrate players - he wasn't going to yield; which all came down to why SAS has our guns tagged with firearms tags and what I was personally told by one of their senior check-in staff. Then they [DAA staff] agreed to have a look at one of the guns (courtesy of gerrowdat) and then let us on our merry way.

Of course there are holes and I don't disagree with you on that, but on the comment of customs officials at Dublin airport being laid back, I've encountered less of that and more of the "OMFG" brigade in all my travels through Irish airports. You will also recall (as I believe you witnessed it) the 'inspiring' argument that I had with a jobsworth metal detector "supervisor" regarding what exactly BBs are replicas of; small plastic balls, not RIFs.

TheDoc

Lemming wrote: »

I don't think you appreciate just how close you were to walking out of Dublin airport without your guns on the way back from Berget 7 dude.

Only for the fact that myself & Kdouglas had a quiet (sane) word with the airport worker in question - who was surrounded by some very irrate players - he wasn't going to yield; which all came down to why SAS has our guns tagged with firearms tags and what I was personally told by one of their senior check-in staff. Then they [DAA staff] agreed to have a look at one of the guns (courtesy of gerrowdat) and then let us on our merry way.

Of course there are holes and I don't disagree with you on that, but on the comment of customs officials at Dublin airport being laid back, I've encountered less of that and more of the "OMFG" brigade in all my travels through Irish airports. You will also recall (as I believe you witnessed it) the 'inspiring' argument that I had with a jobsworth metal detector "supervisor" regarding what exactly BBs are replicas of; small plastic balls, not RIFs.

I was well aware of the situation alright

But it was because of misinformation and the " what the **** are these" factor.

Lets not forget they did not open the actual cases,they just saw the firearm labels on the boxes, and when they saw what they actually were, they genuinely didnt care and let us go.

Sure the last time we went to Senny we declared at customs and they let us sit there for like 20-30 minutes without being checked and then we just boarded, you'd think after we declare imitation firearms the car is flagged and stuff.

But nope, just strolled on, then strolled off : /

mack_the_knife

Interesting discussions here.

Thanks all, as of this morning the airsoft gun has "cleared customs" (UPS) and should be on route.

I would be interested see what kind of muzzle velocity it is firing at now.

Lemming

TheDoc wrote: »

I was well aware of the situation alright

But it was because of misinformation and the " what the **** are these" factor.

Lets not forget they did not open the actual cases,they just saw the firearm labels on the boxes, and when they saw what they actually were, they genuinely didnt care and let us go.

Sure the last time we went to Senny we declared at customs and they let us sit there for like 20-30 minutes without being checked and then we just boarded, you'd think after we declare imitation firearms the car is flagged and stuff.

But nope, just strolled on, then strolled off : /

Very true; the firearms tags were what caused the initial flap amongst the DAA staff. Interestingly enough; part of the reason for the apparently lax attitude at airports - I suspect - comes down to the scanners. Having witnessed one of these in operation (I was first to attempt checkin for Berget 6 and the Monty Python-esque thirty minutes that followed is well documented), they can tell at a glance by changing the IR filters if the RIF is likely real or not and needing additional scrutiny. I'm not sure how well a GBBR would fare mind you, although my GBB pistol was just fine.

The ferry ports are rather hit & miss and rely on you leaving stuff locked in your car or with them taking it to the bridge and holding it for the duration of the voyage. Of course, what are you realistically going to do and where are you going to escape to? A sub? Pffft! Your name ain't Stephen Seagal and we all know what happened to the sub in that movie. Another boat? You'll be caught by air intercept before you can say "sh*t", and then it'll be one of her majesties big-grey-war-canoes coming down on top of you, possibly with some very excitable and angry royal marine commandos thrown into the mix for giggles.

Airsoft Reloded

I brought the guy to the hospital and the doctor said that he blinked just as the bb hit his eye. It hit the actual eyeball dead on but the eye lids closed on it just as it hit. The gun was firing at .97, I know this because I chrono'd it myself.

The doc said a little more power and he could have lost his eye but as it was there was a tiny abrasion and no lasting damage. I'm in no way saying it can't injur the eye, just that it didn't on this occasion. I know a guy that got shot 7 times (twice through the head) and he is still walking around today so anything can happen.

Firekitten

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

I know a guy that got shot 7 times (twice through the head) and he is still walking around today so anything can happen.

Ah that explains why you're a bit daft. :D

thermo

ok the questions been answered, and we are heading off topic.
locked