Are non-Irish being targeted by An Gardaí and the courts?

nodolan

I've opened up another thread about litter laws which is kinda connected to this thread.

In talking to my friends from Eastern Europe I've heard a lot of first hand stories and anecdotes about the Gardaí seemingly coming down quite heavy on non-Irish (non-English speaking) nationals. I've also heard from them that they are not offered any translation/interpreter services and no mention of legal aid. On top of that they seem to be getting larger than usual fines and when I say 'larger than usual' I mean larger fines than the average Irish person would get.

I deleted two examples here as some contentious people seem to be fixated on them instead of just answering my question.

Has anyone else found this to be true or am I just hanging out with a bunch of thugs? (That's tongue in cheek btw).

Noel.

MagicSean

No

wolf moon

nodolan wrote: »

Guy cycling the wrong way down a road

i see the above is self-explanatory, so lets move to the next one...

nodolan wrote: »

Example 2: Guy stopped by Gardaí in Cork city and told he was speeding. No speed cameras were involved. He says he wasn't. Went to court only to find that a second charge was waiting for him for having no tax, but he was in the middle of renewing it (he was actually driving to pick it up).

jaysus, that's called a real coincidence, isn't it?!?! :cool:

as a side note, i always thought that renewals arrive by post...

nodolan wrote: »

He wasn't offered translation help etc., he had no idea what was going on and ended up paying €700 in fines. He had to sell his car to pay for it.

tough luck, if he wasn't lazy enough to learn the language, he'd know what he's paying for. he lives here, drives here, renews taxes here and couldn't understand the court? are you taking the p1ss sir???

i don't feel sorry for the guy in a slightest bit.




(how does he know he was told he was speeding??)

mikemac

nodolan wrote: »

IWent to court only to find that a second charge was waiting for him for having no tax, but he was in the middle of renewing it (he was actually driving to pick it up).

What are the odds??
That's what everyone says

McCrack

"Tax in Post"

nodolan

wolf moon wrote: »

as a side note, i always thought that renewals arrive by post...

Yeah, you can still drive to the tax office and renew manually, I've done it myself and I've seen that around 70% of the people there were non-Irish. He had just been told by another friend where to go and how to do it.

wolf moon wrote: »

tough luck, if he wasn't lazy enough to learn the language, he'd know what he's paying for. he lives here, drives here, renews taxes here and couldn't understand the court? are you taking the p1ss sir???

Which is why so many Irish people are here on boards.ie asking about the courts?

---

Please, everybody, don't bother answering if it's not relevant to the actual question or if you can't refrain from stooping to being an intolerant idiot, thanks.

bath handle

nodolan wrote: »

wolf moon wrote: »

as a side note, i always thought that renewals arrive by post...

Yeah, you can still drive to the tax office and renew manually, I've done it myself and I've seen that around 70% of the people there were non-Irish. He had just been told by another friend where to go and how to do it.

wolf moon wrote: »

tough luck, if he wasn't lazy enough to learn the language, he'd know what he's paying for. he lives here, drives here, renews taxes here and couldn't understand the court? are you taking the p1ss sir???

Which is why so many Irish people are here on boards.ie asking about the courts?

---

Please, everybody, don't bother answering if it's not relevant to the actual question or if you can't refrain from stooping to being an intolerant idiot, thanks.

Legal aid is only given when there is a risk of imprisonment. There rarely is in the case of minor traffic offences. He did not have to pay the fines if he didn't want.

nodolan

bath handle wrote: »

He did not have to pay the fines if he didn't want.

How do you mean not pay? Wouldn't he go to prison for not paying fines?

It wasn't just the legal aid though, it was that there was no offer of an interpreter. Legal language is difficult even for a native speaker like the girl I helped out today (another thread) got totally lost when me and the woman from the council started talking between ourselves, she even nodded as if she understood what we were saying but when I spoke to her afterwards she hadn't a clue what we had said (I'm a qualified TEFL teacher married to a Bolivian so I know a bit about these things).

(And thanks for the constructive reply btw)

not even wrong

Since this thread is all about the anecdotal evidence, here's a counterpoint for you:

Man jailed for 15 years over Co Cork rape

He said were it not for the fact that Jakubowski was a foreign national, he would have imposed a sentence of between 17 and 20 years.

But he had to take into account the fact that a prison sentence could be more isolating for someone who did not have roots in this country.

nodolan

I didn't ask for counterpoints and I simply gave some examples to elucidate. Thanks.

MagicSean

nodolan wrote: »

I didn't ask for counterpoints and I simply gave some examples to elucidate. Thanks.

You mean you're only interested in evidence that supports your view.

nodolan

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

You mean you're only interested in evidence that supports your view.

No, I simply want people to answer if this has been their experience or not, it's really simple. Either I just happened upon an unfortunate cohort of non-nationals or else others have encountered this also - simple.

sparkling sea

bath handle wrote: »

Legal aid is only given when there is a risk of imprisonment.

Legal aid is given were there is no risk of imprisonment - anyone can apply for free legal aid if they are unemployed or on a low income.

A judge must tell an accussed that they are entitled to legal aid if a charge carries a possible prison sentence.

MagicSean

nodolan wrote: »

No, I simply want people to answer if this has been their experience or not, it's really simple. Either I just happened upon an unfortunate cohort of non-nationals or else others have encountered this also - simple.

Not in my experience. There probably are cases were a foreign national has been at the short end because of language or cultural differences but in fairness, why would you come to live in a country if you don't know the language or the law. And if you don't know the law why would you bring a solicitor to court with you. If you think you'll have a problem with the language then bring a friend who can translate just in case you need them.

Your examples aren't very compelling either. A ticket for cycling and one for tax. Hardly a justice conspiracy is it.

nodolan

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Not in my experience. There probably are cases were a foreign national has been at the short end because of language or cultural differences but in fairness, why would you come to live in a country if you don't know the language or the law. And if you don't know the law why would you bring a solicitor to court with you. If you think you'll have a problem with the language then bring a friend who can translate just in case you need them.

Em, I lived in Germany. Didn't speak the language, didn't know the law.

It took me weeks to get my Aufenthaltserlaubnis even with the help of Germans. You don't seem to understand, nationals don't need to know about certain aspects of the law due to the fact that they're nationals.

I lived in Spain, didn't know the language, didn't know the law.

I had legal problems in Spain with my apartment and I asked a Spanish friend to help me - he didn't know the law, neither did his Spanish friend, neither did another Spanish friend. We asked a solicitor for help - he specialized in another aspect of the law and couldn't help us.

I don't know of anyone who ever left this country and made themselves familiar with the law of the country they went to - I think you're putting forward a standard that most people wouldn't even consider never mind actually attempt to attain.

Australian law is different to Irish law, US law is different to Irish law, Canadian law is different to Irish law - a lot of Irish people go to those places (I lived in the USA also) and I've never met a single Irish person who did a quick course on the law of any country they were about to migrate to. Your proposition is ridiculous in the extreme and for me it exposes an underlying racism towards immigrants.

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Your examples aren't very compelling either. A ticket for cycling and one for tax. Hardly a justice conspiracy is it.

Again with the harping on about my examples.
Maybe I should delete them?

MagicSean

nodolan wrote: »

Em, I lived in Germany. Didn't speak the language, didn't know the law.

It took me weeks to get my Aufenthaltserlaubnis even with the help of Germans. You don't seem to understand, nationals don't need to know about certain aspects of the law due to the fact that they're nationals.

I lived in Spain, didn't know the language, didn't know the law.

I had legal problems in Spain with my apartment and I asked a Spanish friend to help me - he didn't know the law, neither did his Spanish friend, neither did another Spanish friend. We asked a solicitor for help - he specialized in another aspect of the law and couldn't help us.

I don't know of anyone who ever left this country and made themselves familiar with the law of the country they went to - I think you're putting forward a standard that most people wouldn't even consider never mind actually attempt to attain.

Australian law is different to Irish law, US law is different to Irish law, Canadian law is different to Irish law - a lot of Irish people go to those places (I lived in the USA also) and I've never met a single Irish person who did a quick course on the law of any country they were about to migrate to. Your proposition is ridiculous in the extreme and for me it exposes an underlying racism towards immigrants.

We're not talking about property conveyence. Basic rules of the road and traffic legislation does not require a law degree to understand. If I go to France I know it would not be a good idea to drive on the footpath. If I plan on cycling I'll look at the basic rules for cyclists.

Ignorance of the law is no defence for Irish people/ EU nationals or immigrants. There are very few laws that apply to non-Irish only.

nodolan wrote: »

Again with the harping on about my examples.
Maybe I should delete them?

If you want

nodolan

Seanbeag1 wrote:

We're not talking about property conveyance. Basic rules of the road and traffic legislation does not require a law degree to understand. If I go to France I know it would not be a good idea to drive on the footpath. If I plan on cycling I'll look at the basic rules for cyclists.

Ignorance of the law is no defence for Irish people/ EU nationals or immigrants. There are very few laws that apply to non-Irish only.

Now you're being facetious and dishonest. You said both the language and the law not just the law. I never said anything about getting a law degree and yes basic things like knowing the rules of the road are simple but being stopped by the police and being brought to court is a whole different ball game. Many Irish people live in non-English speaking countries, many more visit non-English speaking countries for holidays or business - to ask them to read up on traffic law for that country (as opposed to basic rules of the road) is simply ridiculous.

http://www.hoverspeed.com/France/Brits-warned-over-French-road-law-knowledge

http://www.euronews.net/2011/06/18/french-motorists-angry-over-new-laws/

I'm never going to stop coming back at you Seanbeag. If you have a simple, non-contentious contribution to make I have no problem but if you want to play silly buggers with me you'll find me to be a stubborn, pedantic, legalistic plague.

MagicSean

nodolan wrote: »

Now you're being facetious and dishonest. You said both the language and the law not just the law. I never said anything about getting a law degree and yes basic things like knowing the rules of the road are simple but being stopped by the police and being brought to court is a whole different ball game. Many Irish people live in non-English speaking countries, many more visit non-English speaking countries for holidays or business - to ask them to read up on traffic law for that country (as opposed to basic rules of the road) is simply ridiculous.

http://www.hoverspeed.com/France/Brits-warned-over-French-road-law-knowledge

http://www.euronews.net/2011/06/18/french-motorists-angry-over-new-laws/

I'm never going to stop coming back at you Seanbeag. If you have a simple, non-contentious contribution to make I have no problem but if you want to play silly buggers with me you'll find me to be a stubborn, pedantic, legalistic plague.

One thing that doesn't make sense about your second example. Both speeding and tax are dealt with by way of fines so the only way your friend would have been brought to court on these offences is if he didn't pay the fine or if they were in addition to other offences which you did not mention or were not aware of.

Anyway, to drive in a foreign country without a knowledge of the rules of the road is ridiculous and irresponsable and anyone who does that should be prepared to suffer the consequences of this. Ignorance of the law is no defence, no matter what your nationality. Also I've seen Irish people come out of court with massive fines for simple speeding tickets.

I note you've deleted your original posts as well, so your opening point is completely unsupported by even anecdotal evidence let alone any hard facts.

nodolan

Seanbeag1 wrote:

One thing that doesn't make sense about your second example. Both speeding and tax are dealt with by way of fines so the only way your friend would have been brought to court on these offences is if he didn't pay the fine or if they were in addition to other offences which you did not mention or were not aware of.

Yeah, that's exactly my point, he didn't understand the letters he received, friends told him not to worry, next thing he knew he had a summons. Try to keep up and stop trying to insinuate that I deliberately left out or was ignorant of other information - it's a simple ploy that's easy to expose for what it really is.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Anyway, to drive in a foreign country without a knowledge of the rules of the road is ridiculous and irresponsible and anyone who does that should be prepared to suffer the consequences of this. Ignorance of the law is no defence, no matter what your nationality. Also I've seen Irish people come out of court with massive fines for simple speeding tickets.

Again you're being dishonest and disingenuous - I never said you didn't need to know the rules of the road - the rules of the road are a very different thing to traffic law (which I've already pointed out).

You keep repeating the mantra about ignorance of the law not being an excuse yet by repeating that mantra you show your own ignorance of the law because it's not all about ignorance or knowledge but it's also about intent:

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Criminal-Law-Basics/Criminal-Law-Defenses-Ignorance-or-Mistake.html

http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/8R93.html

That's US law so you should know about it (going by your own guidelines).

Seanbeag1 wrote:

I note you've deleted your original posts as well, so your opening point is completely unsupported by even anecdotal evidence let alone any hard facts.

I haven't deleted my post (again with the insinuations) - I edited it - as per your "If you want" invitation because of people like you who insist on playing silly buggers.

p.s. I will do this forever, really, I will never back down from confronting and correcting someone like you, ever.

MagicSean

nodolan wrote: »

Yeah, that's exactly my point, he didn't understand the letters he received, friends told him not to worry, next thing he knew he had a summons. Try to keep up and stop trying to insinuate that I deliberately left out or was ignorant of other information - it's a simple ploy that's easy to expose for what it really is.

Nice friends he has. I'm not insinuating anything. You said he was brought to court. I didn't see anything about a fine in your posts.

nodolan wrote: »

Again you're being dishonest and disingenuous - I never said you didn't need to know the rules of the road - the rules of the road are a very different thing to traffic law (which I've already pointed out).

There isn't much difference between the rules of the road and traffic law. If you obey the rules of the road you are very unlikely to break traffic laws.

nodolan wrote: »

You keep repeating the mantra about ignorance of the law not being an excuse yet by repeating that mantra you show your own ignorance of the law because it's not all about ignorance or knowledge but it's also about intent:

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Criminal-Law-Basics/Criminal-Law-Defenses-Ignorance-or-Mistake.html

http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/8R93.html

For most minor traffic law no intent is required.

nodolan wrote: »

That's US law so you should know about it (going by your own guidelines).

Not really. If I was to go to the U.S. then it might be worth knowing but I am in Ireland where the law is different.

nodolan wrote: »

I haven't deleted my post (again with the insinuations) - I edited it - as per your "If you want" invitation because of people like you who insist on playing silly buggers.

As per my invitation? Your edit time appears to be 10 minutes before my post on the matter.

nodolan wrote: »

p.s. I will do this forever, really, I will never back down from confronting and correcting someone like you, ever.

Even if you are wrong?

Bosco boy

nodolan wrote: »

Seanbeag1 wrote:

One thing that doesn't make sense about your second example. Both speeding and tax are dealt with by way of fines so the only way your friend would have been brought to court on these offences is if he didn't pay the fine or if they were in addition to other offences which you did not mention or were not aware of.

Yeah, that's exactly my point, he didn't understand the letters he received, friends told him not to worry, next thing he knew he had a summons. Try to keep up and stop trying to insinuate that I deliberately left out or was ignorant of other information - it's a simple ploy that's easy to expose for what it really is.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Anyway, to drive in a foreign country without a knowledge of the rules of the road is ridiculous and irresponsible and anyone who does that should be prepared to suffer the consequences of this. Ignorance of the law is no defence, no matter what your nationality. Also I've seen Irish people come out of court with massive fines for simple speeding tickets.

Again you're being dishonest and disingenuous - I never said you didn't need to know the rules of the road - the rules of the road are a very different thing to traffic law (which I've already pointed out).

You keep repeating the mantra about ignorance of the law not being an excuse yet by repeating that mantra you show your own ignorance of the law because it's not all about ignorance or knowledge but it's also about intent:

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Criminal-Law-Basics/Criminal-Law-Defenses-Ignorance-or-Mistake.html

http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/8R93.html

That's US law so you should know about it (going by your own guidelines).

Seanbeag1 wrote:

I note you've deleted your original posts as well, so your opening point is completely unsupported by even anecdotal evidence let alone any hard facts.

I haven't deleted my post (again with the insinuations) - I edited it - as per your "If you want" invitation because of people like you who insist on playing silly buggers.

p.s. I will do this forever, really, I will never back down from confronting and correcting someone like you, ever.

maybe non Irish people should be exempt from the law until they learn the language, I've been in many different countries both on holidays and working and I never got in trouble with the police and I didn't always know the language. I've seen perfectly fluent non Irish seek interpreters in court at state cost and try and play dumb to get out of trouble. It's time those who abuse the system are made play by the rules and pay their way!

nodolan

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Nice friends he has. I'm not insinuating anything. You said he was brought to court. I didn't see anything about a fine in your posts.

Your mud-slinging against his friends aside, in my original post (which you agreed that I might want to edit) I stated that he had received a €700 fine.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

There isn't much difference between the rules of the road and traffic law. If you obey the rules of the road you are very unlikely to break traffic laws.

And there you show your complete ignorance. Rules of the road, for the most part are a combination of both laws and informal rules. You can easily follow informal rules and still break a law. For the most part 'Rules of the Road' are a digest of traffic laws and are not a complete canon of the laws of any particular country.
http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Your-learner-permit/Rules-of-the-road/

Seanbeag1 wrote:

For most minor traffic law no intent is required.

Prove it. Quote chapter and text to me, since you imply you know so much about the law demonstrate it.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Not really. If I was to go to the U.S. then it might be worth knowing but I am in Ireland where the law is different.

A statement which shows you are completely grasping at straws at this point because your whole argument up to this point is that people going to other countries should know the law (and the language) of that country and nothing to do with the country they are a national of - and yet in that statement you prove my point further - the law is different - the law, not the rules of the road but the law.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

As per my invitation? Your edit time appears to be 10 minutes before my post on the matter.

If the boards.ie system is unable to record the time properly that's not my fault, but the evidence of the post still being intact is there within your own replies so that demonstrates your dishonesty in this matter even further. (BTW I started using a proxy server to view BBC iPlayer which may have interfered with the time-stamp, nevertheless posts after that point prove that there was more to my original post than there is now).

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Even if you are wrong?

Which I'm not.

MagicSean

nodolan wrote: »

Your mud-slinging against his friends aside, in my original post (which you agreed that I might want to edit) I stated that he had received a €700 fine.

That's a court fine and not the fixed charge penalty for speeding.

nodolan wrote: »

And there you show your complete ignorance. Rules of the road, for the most part are a combination of both laws and informal rules. You can easily follow informal rules and still break a law. For the most part 'Rules of the Road' are a digest of traffic laws and are not a complete canon of the laws of any particular country.
http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Your-learner-permit/Rules-of-the-road/

But if you follow them you are unlikely to break the law.

nodolan wrote: »

Prove it. Quote chapter and text to me, since you imply you know so much about the law demonstrate it.

What chapter or text? It's just the way it is in Irish courts.

nodolan wrote: »

A statement which shows you are completely grasping at straws at this point because your whole argument up to this point is that people going to other countries should know the law (and the language) of that country and nothing to do with the country they are a national of - and yet in that statement you prove my point further - the law is different - the law, not the rules of the road but the law.

None of that makes sense. You quoted American laws and I said I don't need to know them unless I go to America.

nodolan wrote: »

If the boards.ie system is unable to record the time properly that's not my fault, but the evidence of the post still being intact is there within your own replies so that demonstrates your dishonesty in this matter even further. (BTW I started using a proxy server to view BBC iPlayer which may have interfered with the time-stamp, nevertheless posts after that point prove that there was more to my original post than there is now).

Whatever helps you sleep at night. You should let the admins know your post times aren't working right.

nodolan wrote: »

Which I'm not.

Of course your not.

Rothmans

nodolan wrote: »

I don't know of anyone who ever left this country and made themselves familiar with the law of the country they went to - I think you're putting forward a standard that most people wouldn't even consider never mind actually attempt to attain.

Australian law is different to Irish law, US law is different to Irish law, Canadian law is different to Irish law - a lot of Irish people go to those places (I lived in the USA also) and I've never met a single Irish person who did a quick course on the law of any country they were about to migrate to. Your proposition is ridiculous in the extreme and for me it exposes an underlying racism towards immigrants.

You don't need to do a course in law if emigrating as the laws are essentially the same between all this countries. If you were going to somewhere like Saudi Arabia, Isreal or Iran, then it might be a good idea to brush up on their laws as, as I'm sure you know yourself, the laws in these countries are designed to unfairly target certain people. But in the EU, the US, Canada Australia etc, the laws are fairly similar.

nodolan wrote: »

Now you're being facetious and dishonest. You said both the language and the law not just the law. I never said anything about getting a law degree and yes basic things like knowing the rules of the road are simple but being stopped by the police and being brought to court is a whole different ball game. Many Irish people live in non-English speaking countries, many more visit non-English speaking countries for holidays or business - to ask them to read up on traffic law for that country (as opposed to basic rules of the road) is simply ridiculous.

http://www.hoverspeed.com/France/Brits-warned-over-French-road-law-knowledge

http://www.euronews.net/2011/06/18/french-motorists-angry-over-new-laws/

I'm never going to stop coming back at you Seanbeag. If you have a simple, non-contentious contribution to make I have no problem but if you want to play silly buggers with me you'll find me to be a stubborn, pedantic, legalistic plague.

OP, its not like these are some obscure laws which your friends convicted for. Driving without tax and driving on the wrong side of the road is illegal throughout the EU, not just Ireland, so your friends would have known full well that they were not complying with the law.

nodolan wrote: »

Yeah, that's exactly my point, he didn't understand the letters he received, friends told him not to worry, next thing he knew he had a summons. Try to keep up and stop trying to insinuate that I deliberately left out or was ignorant of other information - it's a simple ploy that's easy to expose for what it really is.


Again you're being dishonest and disingenuous - I never said you didn't need to know the rules of the road - the rules of the road are a very different thing to traffic law (which I've already pointed out).

You keep repeating the mantra about ignorance of the law not being an excuse yet by repeating that mantra you show your own ignorance of the law because it's not all about ignorance or knowledge but it's also about intent:

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Criminal-Law-Basics/Criminal-Law-Defenses-Ignorance-or-Mistake.html

http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/8R93.html

That's US law so you should know about it (going by your own guidelines).


I haven't deleted my post (again with the insinuations) - I edited it - as per your "If you want" invitation because of people like you who insist on playing silly buggers.

p.s. I will do this forever, really, I will never back down from confronting and correcting someone like you, ever.

As Seanbeag pointed out, its not a question of intent, but one of strict liability, where no mens rea need be proved by the prosecution.



EDIT: If you obey ROTR you're not going to commit any illegal acts. The RSA wouldn't publish ROTR if they were advising you to break the law

Shelflife

I think that in the event of being stopped by the local police in a foreign country and subsequently recieveing official notification in relation to that matter, most people would make a concerted effort to make sure that they dealt with the matter in the proper fashion ie consult with a solicitor or with their embassy.

just ignoring these notices (i think most official notices in most countries have the same general layout) is not a good move. relying on what your mates think that you should do is rarely a good idea.

to answer your question OP, i dont think that they are being targeted , they are just being caught for not observing the laws in the country that they are living in.

as an aside i find it bizarre the number of non-irish in my area that can speak little or no english, if i was moving to an eastern european country for any length of time i would work hard at learning the language asap, starting long before i actually went to that country.

bath handle

sparkling sea wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

Legal aid is only given when there is a risk of imprisonment.

Legal aid is given were there is no risk of imprisonment - anyone can apply for free legal aid if they are unemployed or on a low income.

A judge must tell an accussed that they are entitled to legal aid if a charge carries a possible prison sentence.

There is virtually no chance of a defendant being given legal aid for a minor road traffic offence. Anyone can apply but it would not be granted.

bath handle

sparkling sea wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

Legal aid is only given when there is a risk of imprisonment.

Legal aid is given were there is no risk of imprisonment - anyone can apply for free legal aid if they are unemployed or on a low income.

A judge must tell an accussed that they are entitled to legal aid if a charge carries a possible prison sentence.

There is virtually no chance of a defendant being given legal aid for a minor road traffic offence. Anyone can apply but it would not be granted.

The Orb

The title of your thread is a large sweeping generalisation given your examples. I know a number of guards and they tell me that there is a disproportionately high level of criminality amongst eastern Europeans in the state but I wouldn't generalise about it.

nodolan

Shelflife wrote: »

I think that in the event of being stopped by the local police in a foreign country and subsequently recieveing official notification in relation to that matter, most people would make a concerted effort to make sure that they dealt with the matter in the proper fashion ie consult with a solicitor or with their embassy.

just ignoring these notices (i think most official notices in most countries have the same general layout) is not a good move. relying on what your mates think that you should do is rarely a good idea.

to answer your question OP, i dont think that they are being targeted , they are just being caught for not observing the laws in the country that they are living in.

as an aside i find it bizarre the number of non-irish in my area that can speak little or no english, if i was moving to an eastern european country for any length of time i would work hard at learning the language asap, starting long before i actually went to that country.

Thank you for an intelligent and reasoned answer.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It seems to be a combination of not knowing the language and listening to bad advice from friends seems to have been the cause of most of the problems. The girl I helped out yesterday was ignoring a litter fine, I told her not to, helped her appeal it and it looks like she'll be ok. But from talking to her and others it seems that they make the impression that they don't care about our laws when in reality it may be a cultural and language thing. I agree about the language issue, when I travel to a non-English speaking country even for a holiday I try to get even some basic idea of the language just to communicate so if you're going to live and work in a country you should really learn the language - the problem there, IMO, is that many East Europeans seem to have come en masse and stuck together and relied on one or two of their group having basic English. OTOH I know a lot of Spanish people in Cork and they go out of their way to learn English while here.

nodolan

The Orb wrote: »

The title of your thread is a large sweeping generalisation given your examples. I know a number of guards and they tell me that there is a disproportionately high level of criminality amongst eastern Europeans in the state but I wouldn't generalise about it.

Well that's an answer to my question isn't it? If you say that guards you know have told you this then you're confirming a generalisation (whether its something endemic in their culture or if its caused by language and cultural issues while here in Ireland). Thank you.

nodolan

Rothmans wrote:

OP, its not like these are some obscure laws which your friends convicted for. Driving without tax and driving on the wrong side of the road is illegal throughout the EU, not just Ireland, so your friends would have known full well that they were not complying with the law.

Thanks for the reply Rothmans. My friend wasn't driving on the wrong side of the road, he was fined for speeding which he says he wasn't (the Gardaí weren't even using a speed gun) and he was on his way to the motor taxation office. He swears blind that the Gardaí never mentioned anything about his tax at the time as he felt he would have been able to show them the documentation to prove he was on his way there.

Rothmans wrote:

As Seanbeag pointed out, its not a question of intent, but one of strict liability, where no mens rea need be proved by the prosecution.

Well, Seanbeag hasn't really said anything of substance IMO. He started off being contentious and continued that way. It was I who brought in the matter of intent in regard to the ignorance defence.

Rothmans wrote:

EDIT: If you obey ROTR you're not going to commit any illegal acts. The RSA wouldn't publish ROTR if they were advising you to break the law

Agreed. As I've just said above I think we're looking at language and cultural issues here. The ROTR seem to be slightly different in different EU countries but also the fact as to whether they are binding or optional in the minds of some also seems to be an issue across Europe.

nodolan

Seanbeag1 wrote:

That's a court fine and not the fixed charge penalty for speeding.

And your point? Try to keep up Seanbeag, I already stated he had been fined but because of apparent language difficulties and no availability of an interpreter he found himself in court and being fined quite heavily and I'll keep repeating that for you until you understand it.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

But if you follow them you are unlikely to break the law.

ROTR in Ireland AFAIK don't make it obligatory to allow someone to merge onto a motorway whereas in other European countries there are specific laws that make it mandatory to allow someone to merge. The rules on what lane you should be in on a roundabout can be different even within Ireland. The ROTR across Europe may be similar but they are not exact. Plus on top of that if you don't speak the language how will you be able to read the ROTR?

Seanbeag1 wrote:

What chapter or text? It's just the way it is in Irish courts.

You still haven't given any examples.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

None of that makes sense. You quoted American laws and I said I don't need to know them unless I go to America.

You started off this subject saying that if people are going abroad they should make themselves familiar with the law of the country they're going to - it's in the thread for all to read.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Whatever helps you sleep at night. You should let the admins know your post times aren't working right.

Regardless, the sequence is there for all to see.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Of course your not.

Nope. Keep going Seanbeag, you won't win. You started off with an attitude that I took on and I won't let it go.

MagicSean

nodolan wrote: »

And your point? Try to keep up Seanbeag, I already stated he had been fined but because of apparent language difficulties and no availability of an interpreter he found himself in court and being fined quite heavily and I'll keep repeating that for you until you understand it.

You're just demonstrating your ignorance of the legal system. There is a big difference between a fixed charge penalty and a court fine after conviction. You never mentioned a fixed charge penalty being received and ignored until I brought it up. Your posts show that you will try and twist anything to make it fit your point even when you're caught out you will keep digging.

nodolan wrote: »

ROTR in Ireland AFAIK don't make it obligatory to allow someone to merge onto a motorway whereas in other European countries there are specific laws that make it mandatory to allow someone to merge. The rules on what lane you should be in on a roundabout can be different even within Ireland. The ROTR across Europe may be similar but they are not exact. Plus on top of that if you don't speak the language how will you be able to read the ROTR?

If you don't know the rules of the road of the country you are going to then don't drive there. It's really simple.

nodolan wrote: »

You still haven't given any examples.

There are no examples. They are strict liability offences. I find it odd that when another poster pointed this out you accept it but when I do you look for examples. It shows that all you want is an argument even though you know you are wrong.

nodolan wrote: »

You started off this subject saying that if people are going abroad they should make themselves familiar with the law of the country they're going to - it's in the thread for all to read.

Exactly. So why would I need to know the laws in America if I don't intend going there?

nodolan wrote: »

Regardless, the sequence is there for all to see.

It sure is. You edited your opening post at 21.52. I gave you my "invitation" to edit it at 22.02 and then you claimed you edited at my invitation. This makes you either a liar or time traveller. You pick

nodolan wrote: »

Nope. Keep going Seanbeag, you won't win. You started off with an attitude that I took on and I won't let it go.

There is no winning with a poster like you. You are arguing for the hell of it with no actual substantial comments. You act like you're some martyr for your cause. What you are doing is called trolling. There is nothing noble about it.

McCrack

This thread has descended to a pretty low tone.

OP I don't believe you have a valid argument here. Traffic laws are there for all people and as has been pointed out ignorance is no excuse for anybody.

Common sense also prevails and I have little sympathy for your friend. He made some driving transgressions, came into contact with police, received Fixed Penalty Notices which I believe anybody native or not would appreciate that they are essentially asking for money to be paid. These were ignored and a summons was issued.

Your friend understood the summons or found somebody to translate the summons and appeared before the District Court and was fined.

End of.

source

OP I can tell you exactly why non-nationals (Eastern Europeans mainly) have no regard for our laws, it has nothing to do with language or culture (although I suppose you could argue that it is kind of a cultural thing).

I got this from the horses mouth so to speak, ie an Eastern European I had arrested one night. We got to talking and he told me that the reason many of his fellow Eastern Europeans have a lack of respect for the law in this country is they see AGS as being weak.

Why is this???? His reasoning is because we're not allowed beat up prisoners and we don't carry guns. He told me that if he was arrested for the same crime in Poland (fighting on the street) that he would get a hiding from the police when they got him back to the station.

This has been corroborated by a number of Eastern Europeans that I have met and spoken to. Others also pointed out that if they get a fine, all they have to do is move house or go home to avoid paying it. So it's nothing to do with knowing the language. Nor is it anything to do with not knowing the law, as the majority of laws (especially Road Traffic Laws) will be the same or similar in most European countries, because the EU will have laid down guidelines that the member states must implement.

Just to give you the example for your crime that doesn't involve intent.....Speeding. You don't have to have intended to speed to be convicted for it. You just have to stray over the limit and you're automatically guilty.

With regard to the speeding offence your friend was convicted and fined for, there are two seperate offences under the realm of speeding, there is an offence of travelling at speed and then speeding.

Travelling at speed means that while he might not have been going over the speed limit, he may have been travelling faster than the conditions allow, the Garda's opinion and evidence will suffice to secure a conviction on this.

With regard speeding the Garda doesn't have to show the person the speed gun. It's taken as best practice if possible to show the person the gun, but is not necessary. Once the member has seen the speed on the gun, he can write that down and deal with the driver while his partner continues to monitor the road with the speed gun.

angelfire9

OP the way I see it is that
A) Ignorance of the law is no defence
If your non national friends can't be bothered to learn the language they can't really whinge if the system seems unfair to them (if they spoke english they'd understand why they are being fined)
C) If they hadn't broken the law in the first place we wouldn't be having this conversation, its not really that difficult to keep your nose clean in a foreign country


I lived in Germany in the '90's
I went over with barely a "Guten Tag"

I never had a problem with the Polizei because I never did anything stupid or illegal

Keeping within the law of the land in whatever land you live is not that difficult, mostly it is basic cop on combined with things like reading road signs!!!:rolleyes:

littlemac1980

This is a fine example of how not to make an argument.

nodolan

foinse wrote: »

OP I can tell you exactly why non-nationals (Eastern Europeans mainly) have no regard for our laws, it has nothing to do with language or culture (although I suppose you could argue that it is kind of a cultural thing).

I got this from the horses mouth so to speak, ie an Eastern European I had arrested one night. We got to talking and he told me that the reason many of his fellow Eastern Europeans have a lack of respect for the law in this country is they see AGS as being weak.

Why is this???? His reasoning is because we're not allowed beat up prisoners and we don't carry guns. He told me that if he was arrested for the same crime in Poland (fighting on the street) that he would get a hiding from the police when they got him back to the station.

This has been corroborated by a number of Eastern Europeans that I have met and spoken to. Others also pointed out that if they get a fine, all they have to do is move house or go home to avoid paying it. So it's nothing to do with knowing the language. Nor is it anything to do with not knowing the law, as the majority of laws (especially Road Traffic Laws) will be the same or similar in most European countries, because the EU will have laid down guidelines that the member states must implement.

Just to give you the example for your crime that doesn't involve intent.....Speeding. You don't have to have intended to speed to be convicted for it. You just have to stray over the limit and you're automatically guilty.

With regard to the speeding offence your friend was convicted and fined for, there are two seperate offences under the realm of speeding, there is an offence of travelling at speed and then speeding.

Travelling at speed means that while he might not have been going over the speed limit, he may have been travelling faster than the conditions allow, the Garda's opinion and evidence will suffice to secure a conviction on this.

With regard speeding the Garda doesn't have to show the person the speed gun. It's taken as best practice if possible to show the person the gun, but is not necessary. Once the member has seen the speed on the gun, he can write that down and deal with the driver while his partner continues to monitor the road with the speed gun.

Much appreciated response. This is the kind of reply I was seeking, I never looked for stupid arguments on points of law or whatever, just reasonable (possible) explanations as to why there seems to be a higher number of non-nationals (specifically East Europeans) being prosecuted.
So there is a disregard for the law and AGS and it might be a cultural thing from their country or it might be something that just grew, so to speak, while they are living here.

nodolan

McCrack wrote: »

This thread has descended to a pretty low tone.

OP I don't believe you have a valid argument here. Traffic laws are there for all people and as has been pointed out ignorance is no excuse for anybody.

Common sense also prevails and I have little sympathy for your friend. He made some driving transgressions, came into contact with police, received Fixed Penalty Notices which I believe anybody native or not would appreciate that they are essentially asking for money to be paid. These were ignored and a summons was issued.

Your friend understood the summons or found somebody to translate the summons and appeared before the District Court and was fined.

End of.

The point of the thread was never to argue about traffic law - the question was simple and in the title - are non-nationals being targeted etc. that was all. Others decided to play silly buggers with me and I responded in kind.

Milk & Honey

There is no such thing as An Gardaí. The is An Garda or na Gardaí. With all the complaints about language on this thread it is strange that this has not been raised before now. It is ludicrous that legal aid is expected in circumstances where an Irish person would not be given it. As for interpreters, do these east Europeans not have the wit to make it known that they do not have a sufficient command of English when they are brought to Court? No one is refused an interpreter when they request one.

littlemac1980

That's not a very robust reason, I'm sorry foinse. I understand its a good point, however, I can't agree with it as you've set it out.

First it gives the impression that all Polish people are like the chap you arrested and are opportunist criminals. I'm sure thats not what you meant to say, but thats the impression it gives.

Secondly incorrectly asserts that Foreign Nationals have less respect for the law than Irish Nationals. As a Guard, I'm sure you're aware thats nonsense, there are plenty of Irish Nationals, that have absolutely no respect for the law.

nodolan

Seanbeag1 wrote:

You're just demonstrating your ignorance of the legal system. There is a big difference between a fixed charge penalty and a court fine after conviction. You never mentioned a fixed charge penalty being received and ignored until I brought it up. Your posts show that you will try and twist anything to make it fit your point even when you're caught out you will keep digging.

I never said there wasn't a difference. I did mention that he had been stopped for speeding, that implies a fixed penalty, I did say that he didn't know what was going on and ended up in court where he was fined. I haven't twisted anything, unlike you.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

If you don't know the rules of the road of the country you are going to then don't drive there. It's really simple.

Agreed, but it doesn't stop people from doing it and as I demonstrated via a link I provided it is a recognised problem.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

There are no examples. They are strict liability offences. I find it odd that when another poster pointed this out you accept it but when I do you look for examples. It shows that all you want is an argument even though you know you are wrong.

No, all I want is not to let you get away with playing silly buggers with me. No one made you come back and keep posting in this thread, you chose to.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

Exactly. So why would I need to know the laws in America if I don't intend going there?

The point still stands, no one said you needed to know the laws of a country if you weren't going there - it was you who started the whole argument about learning the laws of a country you intended to go to, not me.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

It sure is. You edited your opening post at 21.52. I gave you my "invitation" to edit it at 22.02 and then you claimed you edited at my invitation. This makes you either a liar or time traveller. You pick

There's no need to pick and your binary option is a false dichotomy - other subsequent posts by others contain information that demonstrate I had posted extra material.

Seanbeag1 wrote:

There is no winning with a poster like you. You are arguing for the hell of it with no actual substantial comments. You act like you're some martyr for your cause. What you are doing is called trolling. There is nothing noble about it.

There's nothing noble about your first 'answer' either, so what's your point? As far as I'm concerned you began the trolling here, I just didn't let you get away with it.

man.about.town

nodolan wrote: »

I've opened up another thread about litter laws which is kinda connected to this thread.

In talking to my friends from Eastern Europe I've heard a lot of first hand stories and anecdotes about the Gardaí seemingly coming down quite heavy on non-Irish (non-English speaking) nationals. I've also heard from them that they are not offered any translation/interpreter services and no mention of legal aid. On top of that they seem to be getting larger than usual fines and when I say 'larger than usual' I mean larger fines than the average Irish person would get.

I deleted two examples here as some contentious people seem to be fixated on them instead of just answering my question.

Has anyone else found this to be true or am I just hanging out with a bunch of thugs? (That's tongue in cheek btw).

Noel.

even if any of this is true, which its not, they are still breaking the law and getting away lightly, ireland has one of the most lenient judicial systems which is backed up by a lack of prison spaces. ask any foreigner (particularly eastern european as you mention them in your post) what would happen if the police arrested them, they would get beat up and if it went to court, theres no such thing as a fine. its prison all the way. they should be happy here btw, any foreign national i know here has never come to the garda's attention and in fact really like our police force compared to their own, looks like your hanging around with the wrong kind. reevaluate your friends and come back to us

nodolan

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is no such thing as An Gardaí. The is An Garda or na Gardaí. With all the complaints about language on this thread it is strange that this has not been raised before now. It is ludicrous that legal aid is expected in circumstances where an Irish person would not be given it. As for interpreters, do these east Europeans not have the wit to make it known that they do not have a sufficient command of English when they are brought to Court? No one is refused an interpreter when they request one.

Therein lies one of the problems Milk & Honey - there is a reluctance to admit they don't understand (on the part of some) and I've witnessed that myself. You'd be talking away and they'd be nodding their head then later you'd ask them about something and realise that they didn't understand a single word. Personally speaking I have no problem admitting that I didn't understand something (spoken in a foreign language or even in English) but certain people seem to find it hard to admit to this, so they don't ask for an interpreter or if they're offered one say they don't need it, or in the case of my friend, he wasn't asked either way (according to him).

source

littlemac1980 wrote: »

That's not a very robust reason, I'm sorry foinse. I understand its a good point, however, I can't agree with it as you've set it out.

First it gives the impression that all Polish people are like the chap you arrested and are opportunist criminals. I'm sure thats not what you meant to say, but thats the impression it gives.

Secondly incorrectly asserts that Foreign Nationals have less respect for the law than Irish Nationals. As a Guard, I'm sure you're aware thats nonsense, there are plenty of Irish Nationals, that have absolutely no respect for the law.

I never said it was all encompassing, Just those that I have arrested and conversed with seem to take this view. I never said that all Eastern European's are criminals, but those that are believe what I have outlined in my previous post.

When I started working in AGS, of a saturday night, pretty much every other prisoner was from Eastern Europe, and mostly for drink related offences or fighting/assaults. These days if I saw 2 or 3 on a saturday night I'd be shocked.

I'm not trying to promote an argument on whether or not Eastern Europeans are criminals, I'm just giving anecdotal evidence to answer the ops question. If I came across as saying that every foreign national is a criminal then I apologise, but my point stands.Those that are willing to push the boundaries have no fear of the Irish judicial system. I know many others who work within the boundaries of Irish law, and never have a problem and am proud to call them friends.

Also this thread isn't about Irish citizens, The Op from what I gather, believes that foreign nationals are being unfairly focused on by AGS and the Courts, I don't believe this is the case. I have outlined my beliefs (based on my observations, and interactions) as to why this is.

source

nodolan wrote: »

Much appreciated response. This is the kind of reply I was seeking, I never looked for stupid arguments on points of law or whatever, just reasonable (possible) explanations as to why there seems to be a higher number of non-nationals (specifically East Europeans) being prosecuted.
So there is a disregard for the law and AGS and it might be a cultural thing from their country or it might be something that just grew, so to speak, while they are living here.

The issue you're encountering here is this is a legal forum, so points of law will be argued in order to explain a point or theory. If you're not looking for a legal perspective then this probably wasn't the best forum for this thread.

Milk & Honey

They break the law. They are too mean to pay for a solicitor. They end up getting what everyone gets who goes into court unprepared. What is your problem?

nodolan

foinse wrote: »

The issue you're encountering here is this is a legal forum, so points of law will be argued in order to explain a point or theory. If you're not looking for a legal perspective then this probably wasn't the best forum for this thread.

Thanks foinse. Perhaps a mod will agree and move it.

source

nodolan wrote: »

Therein lies one of the problems Milk & Honey - there is a reluctance to admit they don't understand (on the part of some) and I've witnessed that myself. You'd be talking away and they'd be nodding their head then later you'd ask them about something and realise that they didn't understand a single word. Personally speaking I have no problem admitting that I didn't understand something (spoken in a foreign language or even in English) but certain people seem to find it hard to admit to this, so they don't ask for an interpreter or if they're offered one say they don't need it, or in the case of my friend, he wasn't asked either way (according to him).

Every judge in the land as soon as they hear a foreign sounding name will ask the defendant if the require an interpreter, The judge will also ask the defendant to account for their actions on the day in question. So in order to answer the person will have to have some basic grasp of English. If the person does not understand the questions being asked by the judge then the judge will put the case back and ask for an interpreter. Everyone gets to have their say in court, it is a basic fundamental right to be able to defend yourself in court and a right every person is afforded.

If a person is brought into a Garda station and they have a poor grasp of English, and interpreter is brought in as the person will have to sign his/her name to documents. The notice of rights is printed out in a whole load of languages and given to the prisoner to read in their native tongue. The system does everything in its power to avoid a person not understanding the reason for their arrest. If a person is still ignorant as to what has happened after a court case, then it is their own fault for not standing up and saying that they don't understand.

Also I think you're focusing a bit much on Seanbeag, he knows what he's talking about and has contributed positively to this thread, but it comes across that you seem to not like what he is saying, despite others making similar points (worded differently) that you have agreed with.

nodolan wrote: »

Thanks foinse. Perhaps a mod will agree and move it.

I don't think there's a need to move this thread as it pertains to the judiciary as well as AGS, I'm just saying to be prepared to have people having legal arguments on points raised.

nodolan

Milk & Honey wrote: »

They break the law. They are too mean to pay for a solicitor. They end up getting what everyone gets who goes into court unprepared. What is your problem?

I thanked you for your previous post but now you just seem to be baiting me, why?

nodolan

foinse wrote: »

Every judge in the land as soon as they hear a foreign sounding name will ask the defendant if the require an interpreter, The judge will also ask the defendant to account for their actions on the day in question. So in order to answer the person will have to have some basic grasp of English. If the person does not understand the questions being asked by the judge then the judge will put the case back and ask for an interpreter. Everyone gets to have their say in court, it is a basic fundamental right to be able to defend yourself in court and a right every person is afforded.

If a person is brought into a Garda station and they have a poor grasp of English, and interpreter is brought in as the person will have to sign his/her name to documents. The notice of rights is printed out in a whole load of languages and given to the prisoner to read in their native tongue. The system does everything in its power to avoid a person not understanding the reason for their arrest. If a person is still ignorant as to what has happened after a court case, then it is their own fault for not standing up and saying that they don't understand.

Also I think you're focusing a bit much on Seanbeag, he knows what he's talking about and has contributed positively to this thread, but it comes across that you seem to not like what he is saying, despite others making similar points (worded differently) that you have agreed with.



I don't think there's a need to move this thread as it pertains to the judiciary as well as AGS, I'm just saying to be prepared to have people having legal arguments on points raised.

I didn't like his tone from the start and it went on from there.
As to the interpreter, I have to disagree. I was present when a non-national Spanish speaker was asked to give testimony in a case. He didn't understand what was being said, had to have things repeated several times, managed to muddle through it and he judge allowed it. No one at any time offered an interpreter.