Want to believe, but can't

Fluorescence

This is just something I've been thinking about for some time, and hopefully some of you can give me a bit of advice. I'm asking for the reasons you all believe, and how I can believe as well.


The thread title sums it up really . I would consider myself an agnostic atheist - I don't truly believe that a deity exists, but I don't rule out the possibility and I acknowledge we can never know for certain. I was raised Catholic and was fairly involved in the church for many years.


For about 2 years in my mid teens (I'm 19 now), I was terrified to go to sleep. I never told anyone about this. It all started one night when I was lying in bed, and the thought "Fuck God" randomly popped into my head. Since then, I was convinced God hated me, that he was going to punish me horribly, that Satan would claim me as his own. I feared the dark and what might be lurking in it. I was afraid to sleep in case he killed me during the night. Even the mere thought of the word "god" when I was alone was enough to send me into blind panic and occasionally tears. On the other side of the coin, I was also half convinced either god or satan would impregnate me and I'd give birth to some demon spawn. None of it made any sense and I recognised that but still couldn't shake it.


Anyway, after about two years of this I finally got over it. I realised I didn't actually believe he existed anymore. The issue I have now is I would really like to believe, but I can't. Severing my ties with religion gave me a lot of peace in many ways, but I've also become very lost as well. I can't just believe blindly however, I need reasons. If He exists, how do I find Him? How can I ever know for sure?


This post may sound trollish, but it's not. I'm genuinely looking for whatever spiritual advice you can lend me. Thanks in advance, and apologies for the long post!

Fanny Cradock

I think that many Christians wouldn't blindly believe either. Richard Dawkins is fond of defining faith in such a way that makes it sound instantly objectionable. In the Blind Watchmaker he assures us that faith "means blind trust, in the absence of evidence, even in the teeth of evidence". Admittedly there are those who obviously have never thought deeply about their faith and probably fall into the category of the credulous. However, this is not a definition that would have been recognised by the authors of the NT.

The claim is not that there is simply a God and you have to believe this in the teeth of evidence to the contrary. Christianity doesn't say anything of the sort. The claim that Christianity makes is not only that there is there a God, but that there is evidence for him and that we can know him relationally. As C.S. Lewis put it, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else". In other words, life makes sense with God. For example, John Lennox gives what I thought to be a stunningly provocative talk about the sense life makes in the wake of an event like the recent Christchurch earthquake if there is a God.

Again, Lennox gives offers some valuable insights in a talk about doubt and certainty. Q & A here. Although he doesn't address the topic of unbelief, I think that you might find some gems in there.

I don't know what lead you to even begin to think that all those terrible things would happen to you in the dark. But I can sympathise with you insofar as to say that if I happened to believe in the same bully God that you once half-believed in then I too would probably tell him to bugger off. The point I'm trying to make is that even when you considered yourself a believer we didn't believe in the same God.

I suggest that it would be good to know what mainstream Christianity actually says about things like God the Father, Jesus, judgement, grace, love and salvation. Don Carson give an excellent 14-part discussion here about the story of the Bible.

Seek and you shall find.

Robert ninja

I'm curious as to why you posted this in Christianity forum? Is it because of your upbringing so you already have the basic idea of a religion so you're just gonna stick with that? Cause there's a whole lot of other religions out there that may make more sense to you.

Anyway, I won't get too sharp here but I would ask you to really look inward and question why do you think you want to believe. Are you lacking something that you think (this) religion can help with? Perhaps there is something missing, but are you sure it's ANY religion that can help? Perhaps it is something a lot more organic and simple. Meh, I won't get too psycho analysis heh. I will add to my own opinion that I really do think wanting to believe ANYTHING but the truth is a pretty bad way to go about things. Do you want the events of the bible to be true? Do you want there to be a god who judges you after your death? Perhaps other religions that say you will be reborn again and again, do you want to believe in that intstead? Hope I helped

Fluorescence

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

The claim is not that there is simply a God and you have to believe this in the teeth of evidence to the contrary. Christianity doesn't say anything of the sort. The claim that Christianity makes is not only that there is there a God, but that there is evidence for him and that we can know him relationally. As C.S. Lewis put it, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else". In other words, life makes sense with God. For example, John Lennox gives what I thought to be a stunningly provocative talk about the sense life makes in the wake of an event like the recent Christchurch earthquake if there is a God.

Again, Lennox gives offers some valuable insights in a talk about doubt and certainty. Q & A here. Although he doesn't address the topic of unbelief, I think that you might find some gems in there.

I suggest that it would be good to know what mainstream Christianity actually says about things like God the Father, Jesus, judgement, grace, love and salvation. Don Carson give an excellent 14-part discussion here about the story of the Bible.

This is very helpful, thank you. That's a lot of information, I'll need some time to shift through it all

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't know what lead you to even begin to think that all those terrible things would happen to you in the dark. But I can sympathise with you insofar as to say that if I happened to believe in the same bully God that you once half-believed in then I too would probably tell him to bugger off. The point I'm trying to make is that even when you considered yourself a believer we didn't believe in the same God.

I had issues with my mental health at the time :pac:. Most of my fears were born out of an unwell mind, I imagine.

Robert ninja wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you posted this in Christianity forum? Is it because of your upbringing so you already have the basic idea of a religion so you're just gonna stick with that? Cause there's a whole lot of other religions out there that may make more sense to you.

It is the christian representation of God I am familiar with. I have looked briefly at other monotheistic religions and they are fundamentally the same as Christianity, so why not stick with it? I considered Buddhism for a while actually, but it didn't "fit" so... *shrug*

Robert ninja wrote: »

Anyway, I won't get too sharp here but I would ask you to really look inward and question why do you think you want to believe. Are you lacking something that you think (this) religion can help with? Perhaps there is something missing, but are you sure it's ANY religion that can help? Perhaps it is something a lot more organic and simple. Meh, I won't get too psycho analysis heh. I will add to my own opinion that I really do think wanting to believe ANYTHING but the truth is a pretty bad way to go about things. Do you want the events of the bible to be true? Do you want there to be a god who judges you after your death? Perhaps other religions that say you will be reborn again and again, do you want to believe in that intstead? Hope I helped

Is wanting to believe not enough? Do I need to justify it now (in this forum of all places)? I miss the sense of security I once felt from religion. I would like it again.

There is more, of course, but this is not the place to get into it.

Robert ninja

fluorescence wrote: »

Is wanting to believe not enough? Do I need to justify it now (in this forum of all places)? I miss the sense of security I once felt from religion. I would like it again.

Is wanting to believe not enough? That's up to you to judge I suppose. Are you looking to understand the world or are you looking to see it in a way that makes you feel comfortable? You said you wanted to feel security, and with that are willing to believe in some things that you may know (as much as you can know anything) aren't entirely true or convincing to you? If so, there's meditation and certain forms of psychosis but I know you're not asking for that, you want a compelling arguement to justity christianity for you to feel like it's the real deal again (and I can't help with that). Only thing I reccomend is youtubing debates for/against christianity and reading any other posts that may come in here. Hope you find peace/security within yourself. Good luck

Fluorescence

Robert ninja wrote: »

Is wanting to believe not enough? That's up to you to judge I suppose. Are you looking to understand the world or are you looking to see it in a way that makes you feel comfortable? You said you wanted to feel security, and with that are willing to believe in some things that you may know (as much as you can know anything) aren't entirely true or convincing to you? If so, there's meditation and certain forms of psychosis but I know you're not asking for that, you want a compelling arguement to justity christianity for you to feel like it's the real deal again (and I can't help with that). Only thing I reccomend is youtubing debates for/against christianity and reading any other posts that may come in here. Hope you find peace/security within yourself. Good luck

I'm not looking for blind faith, immaterial of truth. I'm not shopping for a religion. I'm asking reasons why people here believe in the Christian creed in the hope I can find a reason to believe too.

Will look up some debates though.

lmaopml

Anyway, after about two years of this I finally got over it. I realised I didn't actually believe he existed anymore. The issue I have now is I would really like to believe, but I can't. Severing my ties with religion gave me a lot of peace in many ways, but I've also become very lost as well. I can't just believe blindly however, I need reasons. If He exists, how do I find Him? How can I ever know for sure?

I think you need to establish first why felt more comfortable in disbelief and what it is that is making you lost.

I will say, I was 'there' at one stage, I was agnostic pretty much and it took me a while to understand how I processed any kind of truth at all...a little persistence ( two years almost ) made me make a 'leap' of faith, as I began to understand more fully in the way 'I' needed to.

Fanny is absolutely right with his quote - 'Seek and you shall find', 'Knock and the door will be opened', as promised. It took me a long time to realise that God didn't only want me to love blindly, but he also wanted me to love him with my 'mind' too....when I put it to use in 'honesty' I began to understand that short leap I eventually made, as opposed to a gaping mile I wish you well, it can take a while, but you need to do it your way and inform yourself, there are so many resources..

AhSureTisGrand

fluorescence wrote: »

I miss the sense of security I once felt from religion. I would like it again.

May I take this as the main reason you say you want to believe?

Secondly, could you explain why you lost your faith?

antiskeptic

fluorescence wrote: »

I'm not looking for blind faith, immaterial of truth. I'm not shopping for a religion. I'm asking reasons why people here believe in the Christian creed in the hope I can find a reason to believe too.

Will look up some debates though.

I believe in the Christian creed primarily because of an encounter with he who I believe to be God. He steered me in the direction of 'Christianity' as a way for me to find out more about him.

Whilst a whole lot of things fall into place as a result, without that initial contact, without eyes being made capable of seeing, the rest wouldn't have convinced me.

Bob Cratchet

fluorescence wrote: »

I'm not looking for blind faith, immaterial of truth. I'm not shopping for a religion. I'm asking reasons why people here believe in the Christian creed in the hope I can find a reason to believe too.

Will look up some debates though.

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. " - 1 Peter 3

In your situation, I cannot tell you what you should be believe, I can only tell you what I believe, and why.

Firstly, as far as I am concerned, no matter what anyone tells me there is no irrefutable proof that God does, or does not exist. The evidence is disputed and always will be.

So, I believe, it is worth considering these things, as depending on what you choose to believe, either eternal life is at stake, or nothing is at stake.

I believe there is good reason why there is no irrefutable proof. God, like any truly loving parent, wants us to decide for ourselves, that is why he gave us free will. I believe this very short life is a test for the next which is eternal, and that no truly loving parent wants forced love. Either you want to love your parent/creator, or you don't.

When I stand on top of a mountain and take time to wonder at the whole of nature and life, I find it hard everything that there ever was and ever will be is just the result of a totally random micro explosion in space 14 billion years ago, and that the big bang had no cause.

Eventually everything can be traced back to the uncaused cause, and that cause is God.

"God is a sprit" - John 4:24

Jesus existed. Ask any reputable historian ;

"To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." - Dr. Michael Grant, renowned historian (and an atheist)

Jesus revealed to us a much fuller picture of God to mankind than was ever known by man before.

Either Jesus was Bad, Mad, or telling the truth.
Or the Apostles and early disciples were Bad, Mad, or telling the truth.

If they were Bad, they did it knowing full well they would gain no money or power, only suffering persecution and death. So that only leaves Mad, or telling the truth.

If they were Mad, then why did so many follow them ?

People are quite good at telling the mad from the sane.

Some people that witnessed Jesus in person did not believe him and refused to follow him.

Today is no different, either you can have faith and believe Jesus and his apostles and disciples were telling the truth, or you can believe they were not.

That's why it's called faith and belief.

So all I can say is, choose your belief, and live your life accordingly.

God bless.

Bob Cratchet

fluorescence wrote: »

I'm asking reasons why people here believe in the Christian creed in the hope I can find a reason to believe too.

We can tell you why we believe, but above all you should also try asking God.

God works in mysterious ways, if you keep asking him to show you the way, and for faith that he exists, over time he will, but perhaps not in the way you expect it, or in an obvious way.
If you don't ask or look, it is likely you won't receive or find.

Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find.

Festus

fluorescence wrote: »

It all started one night when I was lying in bed, and the thought "F*** God" randomly popped into my head.

There's your problem.

For a start realize that God is Love. The rest will follow.

antiskeptic

The OP wrote:

I'm asking reasons why people here believe in the Christian creed in the hope I can find a reason to believe too.

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. " - 1 Peter 3

Let's look.

In your situation, I cannot tell you what you should be believe, I can only tell you what I believe, and why.

The why being the relevant bit..

Firstly, as far as I am concerned, no matter what anyone tells me there is no irrefutable proof that God does, or does not exist. The evidence is disputed and always will be.

Aside: even by yourself? Are you 100% sure that God exists?

So, I believe, it is worth considering these things, as depending on what you choose to believe, either eternal life is at stake, or nothing is at stake.

I believe there is good reason why there is no irrefutable proof. God, like any truly loving parent, wants us to decide for ourselves, that is why he gave us free will. I believe this very short life is a test for the next which is eternal, and that no truly loving parent wants forced love. Either you want to love your parent/creator, or you don't.

I agree. But this doesn't address the question 'why' you would believe

When I stand on top of a mountain and take time to wonder at the whole of nature and life, I find it hard everything that there ever was and ever will be is just the result of a totally random micro explosion in space 14 billion years ago, and that the big bang had no cause.

Eventually everything can be traced back to the uncaused cause, and that cause is God.

Yet other people find it very easy to believe that we were produced by a micro explosion. The evidence points pretty convincingly in that direction. As for first cause? Well there are various speculations (such as a perpetual universe)

Jesus existed. Ask any reputable historian ;

"To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." - Dr. Michael Grant, renowned historian (and an atheist)

A lot of atheists wouldn't have a problem with the existance of a good man called Jesus. The exstance of God walking the earth is a quite different matter and not one decided upon by the historians.

Either Jesus was Bad, Mad, or telling the truth.

Or the gospel accounts don't accurately recount Jesus' words

Or the Apostles. If they were Mad, then why did so many follow them ?

Why do so many people follow Islam and all the other religions.

Today is no different, either you can have faith and believe Jesus and his apostles and disciples were telling the truth, or you can believe they were not.

But the question is why you would have faith. You can't just decide to believe something as fantastical as the gospel-accounts-true when there are lot's of simpler explanations.

E.A.P

It's OK not to believe.

I don't know you and so can't offer any proper advise, but you shouldn't feel you have to believe to have a rich and fulfilling life. The world is still a beautiful place without a god.

Fate should come natural to you and you shouldn't try to force it. I know this from experience. When I realised I lost my fate I tried to hold on to the idea of a christen god, but I knew I couldn't believe that any more so I tried a more general idea without religion, but I was still fooling myself until I finally accepted my belief that there is no god and that's OK.

I would think accepting that will make it easier to realise what you really believe in as oppose to fearing that you have to. Again I can't offer you any real advice because I do not know you. I would suggest talking to someone who does. I do hope you come to term with your beliefs whatever they may be.

An Atheist.

Fanny Cradock

E.A.P wrote: »

It's OK not to believe.

I don't know you and so can't offer any proper advise, but you shouldn't feel you have to believe to have a rich and fulfilling life. The world is still a beautiful place without a god.

Fate should come natural to you and you shouldn't try to force it. I know this from experience. When I realised I lost my fate I tried to hold on to the idea of a christen god, but I knew I couldn't believe that any more so I tried a more general idea without religion, but I was still fooling myself until I finally accepted my belief that there is no god and that's OK.

I would think accepting that will make it easier to realise what you really believe in as oppose to fearing that you have to. Again I can't offer you any real advice because I do not know you. I would suggest talking to someone who does. I do hope you come to term with your beliefs whatever they may be.

An Atheist.

I take it you mean "faith" and not "fate"?

I don't think anyone is making the claim that people can't be happy without God. The claim we are making - well, me at least - is that life makes sense with God. Incidentally, what do you suppose beauty is?

strobe

It's easy to take the blue pill Fluorescence . It's always hardest to do the right thing. I would love to just acquiesce. I really would, it's so much easier, so very easier. But personally I think it's always preferable to know the truth, even if the truth is hard to accept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLsyNBnE5M

Animals have no souls, they tell me...

antiskeptic

strobe wrote: »

It's easy to take the blue pill Fluorescence . It's always hardest to do the right thing. I would love to just acquiesce. I really would, it's so much easier, so very easier. But personally I think it's always preferable to know the truth, even if the truth is hard to accept.

'Just aquiesce' and do what precisely?

E.A.P

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I take it you mean "faith" and not "fate"?

I don't think anyone is making the claim that people can't be happy without God. The claim we are making - well, me at least - is that life makes sense with God. Incidentally, what do you suppose beauty is?

look I didn't mean to step on any toes and I really don't want this turning into a religious fight, but the point I made is still relevant on the subject on losing faith and wanting to believe which I thought this thread is about.

What do I suppose beauty is? More then likely the same thing you do.

Again I really don't want a fight. I have nothing but respect for Christians and I don't plan on staying very long in their form.

Fanny Cradock

E.A.P wrote: »

look I didn't mean to step on any toes and I really don't want this turning into a religious fight, but the point I made is still relevant on the subject on losing faith and wanting to believe which I thought this thread is about.

What do I suppose beauty is? More then likely the same thing you do.

Again I really don't want a fight. I have nothing but respect for Christians and I don't plan on staying very long in their form.

I'm not looking for a fight either E.A.P. I was just curious if you thought that beauty exists independently of the mind or if it's a product of the mind. If it's the former then I wonder from whence it comes? (I think the obvious answer id God but obviously you wont agree.) If it's the latter then surely it is an illusion.

Fanny Cradock

strobe wrote: »

It's easy to take the blue pill Fluorescence . It's always hardest to do the right thing. I would love to just acquiesce. I really would, it's so much easier, so very easier. But personally I think it's always preferable to know the truth, even if the truth is hard to accept.

I could as easily take your above quote and apply it to your world view. I've been tempted into atheism in the past for exactly the same reasons. I've thought at times that it would be easier to believe that there is no God and that there really is nothing called good or bad, that there is no objective overarching standard that stands over against us (familial and societal standards are fluid and not the same thing) and that life is at best 80 odd years of pleasure seeking - hopefully without causing too much harm in the process. That sounds very attractive to me.

I think that if I ever because an atheist it would not be because I couldn't square the problem of evil with a good God, evolution with Christianity (not that I see any problem there) or whatever else. It would be because it seems at times more alluring and far easier to believe that "life is what you make it and then you die".

Of course, I happen to believe that God makes sense of things that my atheist self would probably have to reduce to evolutionary tricks and societal conventions to explain them - love-hate, good-bad etc. That there is a God who care for us, wants relationship with us, makes demands of us and has a plan for us and all of creation is thrilling. But it isn't an easy life to live. Indeed, for some people is it positively fatal (see the various persecution threads on the forum).

strobe wrote: »

But personally I think it's always preferable to know the truth, even if the truth is hard to accept.

The question is "what is the truth of the matter". It hasn't been established that there is no God. So let's not pretend otherwise. The God question is very much an open question, I believe.

strobe wrote: »

Animals have no souls, they tell me...

Christianity does teach that animals have souls. There is, however, a distinction between soul and spirit.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

The question is "what is the truth of the matter". It hasn't been established that there is no God. So let's not pretend otherwise. The God question is very much an open question, I believe.

And like all supernatural claims it can never be established that there is no God. It is impossible to disprove a supernatural claim since by definition the mechanics of the claim lie beyond our ability to test.

What can be established is alternative explanations for believe that explain in more precise detail and greater accuracy, religious faith, feeling and practice in human beings without requiring that what they believe in actually be true.

Ultimately it comes down to the individual which explanation they will accept. I think that strobe's point was that people shouldn't be afraid to accept the explanation that produces the more accurate framework of explanation (and thus is more likely to be true) even if this framework is initially unpleasing or upsetting for the person.

ISAW

fluorescence wrote: »

I had issues with my mental health at the time :pac:. Most of my fears were born out of an unwell mind, I imagine.

Maybe then this is a case of losing your mind or your reason and not your faith?

The question that arises is could an atheist have the same dreams nightmares or hallucinations you had? i.e. where is the evidence that christianity per ce caused these?
There is ample counter evidence. Pre christian paganism has all these types of horrors in their imaginative mythology so it cant be because of Christianity if it happened before and independent of it can it?

On the positive side I would reckon all horrific or fantastic stories have similar themes and just present them in different ways. whether it is Lord of the Rings or harry Potter or Thomas Covenant or Star Wars. Many artists also painted these themes both inside and outside of Christianity. Dali or Hieronymus Bosch for example. so if you write or draw why not depict they yourself and externalist them? It would seem you have a very active imagination I am sure you now believe there was nothing physically in your room. As to torment and not being able to sleep how about Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment?

Fluorescence

Wow, lots of replies! Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. I can't reply to each individually right now as I'm in a hurry.

Someone asked why I lost my faith in the first place. I'd been unsure for a couple of months when I watched an online lecture by a doctor of psychology about duality (the idea that there is a spirit separate from the physical self). It was a very interesting lecture actually. I also realised how little sense the entire concept made too me. How little sense much of the bible itself made to me. So from them on I considered myself an atheist. That was about a year and a half ago.

Anyway, recently it seems a lot of different people have been talking to me about religion. I'm curious. Who am I to say they're wrong? Or that I'm wrong? I want to know what drives these people to their deep faith despite atheism becoming far stronger these days. I want to know why they believe. Perhaps they know something I don't. I've also seen first hand how much comfort and peace their religion brings them. I'd like that. There's also the ideas that lies often make much more sense and a far more appealing story than the truth does, and I'm wondering does that apply to atheism too - after all it makes more sense to me. But I don't know, and that's why I'm here.

PDN

Moderator's Reminder

Just reminding posters that the OP has asked a question in the Christianity forum in order to get spiritual advice.

If he/she wants to seek advice from non-spiritual or atheist perspectives then they are free to do so in the Atheism & Agnosticism forum.

Also, if some of the atheists on this thread want to discuss the evidence for belief or disbelief then there is an Atheist/Christian debate thread for that purpose. Please refrain from dragging this one off topic.

Fluorescence

ISAW wrote: »

Maybe then this is a case of losing your mind or your reason and not your faith?

The question that arises is could an atheist have the same dreams nightmares or hallucinations you had? i.e. where is the evidence that christianity per ce caused these?
There is ample counter evidence. Pre christian paganism has all these types of horrors in their imaginative mythology so it cant be because of Christianity if it happened before and independent of it can it?

On the positive side I would reckon all horrific or fantastic stories have similar themes and just present them in different ways. whether it is Lord of the Rings or harry Potter or Thomas Covenant or Star Wars. Many artists also painted these themes both inside and outside of Christianity. Dali or Hieronymus Bosch for example. so if you write or draw why not depict they yourself and externalist them? It would seem you have a very active imagination I am sure you now believe there was nothing physically in your room. As to torment and not being able to sleep how about Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment?

I do of course realise this now. My fears had nothing to do with my faith, which only gave shape to them. I only mentioned it because in many ways severing my tie to religion also gave me respite from my fears (until I learned how to cope with them myself).

Bob Cratchet

E.A.P wrote: »

It's OK not to believe.

It's also OK to believe.

AhSureTisGrand

fluorescence wrote: »

Anyway, recently it seems a lot of different people have been talking to me about religion. I'm curious. Who am I to say they're wrong? Or that I'm wrong? I want to know what drives these people to their deep faith despite atheism becoming far stronger these days. I want to know why they believe. Perhaps they know something I don't. I've also seen first hand how much comfort and peace their religion brings them. I'd like that. There's also the ideas that lies often make much more sense and a far more appealing story than the truth does, and I'm wondering does that apply to atheism too - after all it makes more sense to me. But I don't know, and that's why I'm here.

I'm not a Christian but I hope neither your rejection nor acceptance of Christianity is based on the values it presents, or on its perceived benefits and detriments. Such things have no bearing on whether or not it is true. Do not try to fool yourself; this is not healthy and you will not benefit from it. Be honest with yourself, and remember that there may be a large gap between what reality is and what you want it to be

ISAW

strobe wrote: »

It's easy to take the blue pill Fluorescence . It's always hardest to do the right thing. I would love to just acquiesce. I really would, it's so much easier, so very easier. But personally I think it's always preferable to know the truth, even if the truth is hard to accept.

Yes. Christians take the red pill and follow Christianity. Even if it is difficult and they suffer because of it.

strobe

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I could as easily take your above quote and apply it to your world view. I've been tempted into atheism in the past for exactly the same reasons. I've thought at times that it would be easier to believe that there is no God and that there really is nothing called good or bad, that there is no objective overarching standard that stands over against us (familial and societal standards are fluid and not the same thing) and that life is at best 80 odd years of pleasure seeking - hopefully without causing too much harm in the process. That sounds very attractive to me.

I think that if I ever because an atheist it would not be because I couldn't square the problem of evil with a good God, evolution with Christianity (not that I see any problem there) or whatever else. It would be because it seems at times more alluring and far easier to believe that "life is what you make it and then you die".

Of course, I happen to believe that God makes sense of things that my atheist self would probably have to reduce to evolutionary tricks and societal conventions to explain them - love-hate, good-bad etc. That there is a God who care for us, wants relationship with us, makes demands of us and has a plan for us and all of creation is thrilling. But it isn't an easy life to live. Indeed, for some people is it positively fatal (see the various persecution threads on the forum).

How interesting. A pretty uncommon view from a Christian that a reality where God doesn't exist is appealing?

The question is "what is the truth of the matter". It hasn't been established that there is no God. So let's not pretend otherwise. The God question is very much an open question, I believe.

Sure. But the point that I believe it is better to know the truth stands I think. If it's the truth that God exists I'd still hold the belief. I made the statement in relation to the OP's OP. "Wanting to believe".

Christianity does teach that animals have souls. There is, however, a distinction between soul and spirit.

There is? You learn something new every day. What's the distinction?

strobe

ISAW wrote: »

Yes. Christians take the red pill and follow Christianity. Even if it is difficult and they suffer because of it.

I agree.

strobe

PDN wrote: »

Moderator's Reminder

Just reminding posters that the OP has asked a question in the Christianity forum in order to get spiritual advice.

If he/she wants to seek advice from non-spiritual or atheist perspectives then they are free to do so in the Atheism & Agnosticism forum.

Also, if some of the atheists on this thread want to discuss the evidence for belief or disbelief then there is an Atheist/Christian debate thread for that purpose. Please refrain from dragging this one off topic.

Oops. Fair enough.

antiskeptic

fluorescence wrote: »

Anyway, recently it seems a lot of different people have been talking to me about religion. I'm curious. Who am I to say they're wrong? Or that I'm wrong? I want to know what drives these people to their deep faith despite atheism becoming far stronger these days. I want to know why they believe. Perhaps they know something I don't. I've also seen first hand how much comfort and peace their religion brings them. I'd like that. There's also the ideas that lies often make much more sense and a far more appealing story than the truth does, and I'm wondering does that apply to atheism too - after all it makes more sense to me. But I don't know, and that's why I'm here.

For a brief period towards the end of my training as a mechanical engineer training I fell in love with maths. Rather than being just a means to a engineers end, I really 'got' it and saw that is was a powerful language by which the world around me could be understood and through which I could express myself in the world.

I realised that people walking the street were completely unaware of this language and were all the more impoverished for it. It was if a rich layer of reality was denied them.

God in my life is like that. It is the tier uber tiers - the ultimate language through which all else is understood. The significance of me and all around me takes on monumental proportions attached as I and everything else is to a being as BIG as he and for whom he has plans.

People walking the streets are completely unaware of this language and are all the more impoverished for it. Instead of this richness there is but self-constructed meaning. A significance derived from pulling on their own bootstraps. Or the issue is left unexamined.

That's the beauty of being a created being who realises as much. You're free to enjoy being considered significant by one whose opinion you respect. You don't have to make it up for yourself.

Zombrex

fluorescence wrote: »

There's also the ideas that lies often make much more sense and a far more appealing story than the truth does, and I'm wondering does that apply to atheism too - after all it makes more sense to me. But I don't know, and that's why I'm here.

Some things we are more biologically adapted to find mentally pleasing than others, irrespective of whether they are true or not. There are reasons for this, but such a discussion does not seem welcome here. As per the mods warning, feel free to pop over to the Atheism forum and we can discuss it further if you like.

ISAW

antiskeptic wrote: »

For a brief period towards the end of my training as a mechanical engineer training I fell in love with maths. Rather than being just a means to a engineers end, I really 'got' it and saw that is was a powerful language by which the world around me could be understood and through which I could express myself in the world.

I realised that people walking the street were completely unaware of this language and were all the more impoverished for it. It was if a rich layer of reality was denied them.

God in my life is like that. It is the tier uber tiers - the ultimate language through which all else is understood. The significance of me and all around me takes on monumental proportions attached as I and everything else is to a being as BIG as he and for whom he has plans.

People walking the streets are completely unaware of this language and are all the more impoverished for it. Instead of this richness there is but self-constructed meaning. A significance derived from pulling on their own bootstraps. Or the issue is left unexamined.

That's the beauty of being a created being who realises as much. You're free to enjoy being considered significant by one whose opinion you respect. You don't have to make it up for yourself.

I applaud your interest but ...

Two points on this

1. mathematics is just a formal language - that is all it is! Mind you that is saying a lot. But mathematics does not have anything to say about "beauty". That requires human values.

2. People may not be aware of mathematics and maybe Freemasons believe in occult knowledge but Christianity isn't about hidden knowledge and secrets.

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

Some things we are more biologically adapted to find mentally pleasing than others, irrespective of whether they are true or not. There are reasons for this, but such a discussion does not seem welcome here. As per the mods warning, feel free to pop over to the Atheism forum and we can discuss it further if you like.

By "biologically adapted" do you mean "genetically programmed" by what or whom?
By accident?
So truth and beauty are accidents?

AhSureTisGrand

ISAW wrote: »

2. People may not be aware of mathematics and maybe Freemasons believe in occult knowledge but Christianity isn't about hidden knowledge and secrets.

Nothing about mathematics is secret. You may as well call Canon Law "hidden knowledge" if that's your interpretation of the term

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

By "biologically adapted" do you mean "genetically programmed" by what or whom?

By biological evolution. We have evolved to invoke explanations centred around agents acting in nature to explain the natural world, and this has little to do with whether such agents actually exist or not. To pick up on what the OP said, not all lies make more sense to us, just some ones.

Again as per the mods request I'm happy to discuss further on the A&A forum.

Festus

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Nothing about mathematics is secret. You may as well call Canon Law "hidden knowledge" if that's your interpretation of the term

Currently "hidden" or the solution is a secret

• P versus NP problem
• Hodge conjecture
• Poincaré conjecture (solved, see solution of the Poincaré conjecture)
• Riemann hypothesis
• Yang–Mills existence and mass gap
• Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness
• Birch and Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture

Moving deeper in to studies of the quantum world, a world that is wholly mathematical, there is much that is hidden, unknown and yet to be discovered.

There is much in mathematics that is still secret it would seem

Festus

Festus wrote: »

There is much in mathematics that is still secret it would seem

Saying that the solutions to those problems are secrets suggests that somebody knows the solution but is not sharing it with others.

I'm not sure I'd call the solutions to unsolved mathematics problems secrets, nor would I call unknown answers to questions secrets.

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

Currently "hidden" or the solution is a secret

• P versus NP problem
• Hodge conjecture
• Poincaré conjecture (solved, see solution of the Poincaré conjecture)
• Riemann hypothesis
• Yang–Mills existence and mass gap
• Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness
• Birch and Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture

Moving deeper in to studies of the quantum world, a world that is wholly mathematical, there is much that is hidden, unknown and yet to be discovered.

There is much in mathematics that is still secret it would seem

Equating undiscovered with hidden or secret is some what odd connection. Hidden by whom exactly?

Fluorescence

*sigh* So much for the spiritual advice.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to give me useful replies. Appreciated

fluorescence

fluorescence wrote: »

*sigh* So much for the spiritual advice.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to give me useful replies. Appreciated

My advice is simple enough:

Don't seek to believe in something because it makes you feel comfortable or because it fills a perceived hole in your self. Don't seek to believe in something because you feel you need to believe in something.

Seek to believe because you want to find the truth. That should be your main, if not only, reason. If that leads you to Christianity, or Islam, or atheism, then at least you're believing (or not believing) for the right reason.

Zombrex

fluorescence wrote: »

*sigh* So much for the spiritual advice.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to give me useful replies. Appreciated

Such is the nature with such questions I guess, if someone could just list off the rational reasons to believe we would probably all be Christians.

I'm an atheist, and all I can say is that it isn't that bad I hope you find what you are looking for and find some spiritual peace at what ever conclusion you arrive at.

Fluorescence

gvn wrote: »

My advice is simple enough:

Don't seek to believe in something because it makes you feel comfortable or because it fills a perceived hole in your self. Don't seek to believe in something because you feel you need to believe in something.

Seek to believe because you want to find the truth. That should be your main, if not only, reason. If that leads you to Christianity, or Islam, or atheism, then at least you're believing (or not believing) for the right reason.

Is there a "right" reason to believe in anything? :P

I've read all the arguments for atheism. I don't need more. I wanted to hear from the christian POV which is why I asked people here in the Christianity forum why they believe in what they do. It was my hope that their answers would help me remain an agnostic atheist or if they would give me something I hadn't heard previously that might lead me toward belief in a christian god.

If I wanted a debate or other POVs I would have asked elsewhere, like humanities or perhaps PI.

fluorescence

fluorescence wrote: »

Is there a "right" reason to believe in anything? :P

I've read all the arguments for atheism. I don't need more. I wanted to hear from the christian POV which is why I asked people here in the Christianity forum why they believe in what they do. It was my hope that their answers would help me remain an agnostic atheist or if they would give me something I hadn't heard previously that might lead me toward belief in a christian god.

If I wanted a debate or other POVs I would have asked elsewhere, like humanities or perhaps PI.

I wasn't giving an argument for atheism. I'm not sure how you got that from my post...

I said that if your search for truth "leads you to Christianity, or Islam, or atheism, then at least you're believing (or not believing) for the right reason." I'd like to think that believing in something because you believe it to be true to be a "right reason", as opposed to believing in something because it gives you comfort or fills a hole.

Best of luck, anyway.

Fluorescence

gvn wrote: »

I wasn't giving an argument for atheism. I'm not sure how you got that from my post...

I said that if your search for truth "leads you to Christianity, or Islam, or atheism, then at least you're believing (or not believing) for the right reason." I'd like to think that believing in something because you believe it to be true to be a "right reason", as opposed to believing in something because it gives you comfort or fills a hole.

Best of luck, anyway.

I didn't :P I asked if there is a "right" reason to believe in anything. The rest of my post aimed to answer some of the other responses I got in this thread which I'll admit I was too lazy to quote :pac:. Sorry about that!

fluorescence

fluorescence wrote: »

I didn't :P I asked if there is a "right" reason to believe in anything. The rest of my post aimed to answer some of the other responses I got in this thread which I'll admit I was too lazy to quote :pac:. Sorry about that!

Well there probably is no one right answer to believe in something. What's right for one might not be for another. My own, personal "right reason" is to believe in something because I believe it to be true; this takes precedence over any and all other reasons. So, if I believe X to be true, yet highly uncomforting, I'll do my best to believe it. Comfort and filling a hole aren't reasons to believe in something, for me at least.

I've always been a fan of Thoreau, and the following quote from Walden has always been a favourite of mine. "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth." You could extend that to "Rather than love, than money, than fame, than comfort, give me truth."

That's all the advice I can really give.

Fluorescence

I do seek the truth :P. One way of finding it is to examine the reasons others believe they have the truth!

Festus

gvn wrote: »

Saying that the solutions to those problems are secrets suggests that somebody knows the solution but is not sharing it with others.

I'm not sure I'd call the solutions to unsolved mathematics problems secrets, nor would I call unknown answers to questions secrets.

Just pointing out the inanity of your statement

Festus

fluorescence wrote: »

Is there a "right" reason to believe in anything? :P

I've read all the arguments for atheism. I don't need more. I wanted to hear from the christian POV which is why I asked people here in the Christianity forum why they believe in what they do. It was my hope that their answers would help me remain an agnostic atheist or if they would give me something I hadn't heard previously that might lead me toward belief in a christian god.

If I wanted a debate or other POVs I would have asked elsewhere, like humanities or perhaps PI.

Unfortunately the mods and owners of boards.ie have decided in their infinite wisdow that restricting discussions to specific points of view is not allowed.

atheistic flak in the Christianity forum is something you will have to put up with. Alternatively judicious use of the "ignore" button can help once you have figured out who the atheists and antichrists are.

For a specifically Catholic POV there are Catholic forums hosted elsewhere:Catholic answers.com at www.catholic.com is quite good.

No doubt our protestant brothers and sisters can point you in the direction of alternative fora.

Why do I believe in God? Because He exists and it would be stupid not to believe in Him.
Can I prove He exists? No, it's a matter of Faith.

Why to I follow the Catholic faith. Because it is the faith of the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Only begotten Son of God. It is the only Church that teaches the Truth.

Most of those who disagree with Catholicism do so for moral reasons. However if you followed the alternative POV to it's logical conclusion it ends in tears. Divorce, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, to name but a few, as embraced by the many protestant rebellion denominations do not bring happiness or joy as they go against what is taught in the Bible, as well as nature.
Many disagree with the authoritiarian structure but that is the way it is. God makes the rules. We follow them.
We all have free will to choose to obey or disobey.
Simple fact of the matter is God is Our Father and like every good parent he makes rules that are designed to help us, not hinder us. We may not always understand them. We may not always agree with them. Some of us have to break the rules and disobey before we realize He is right, but that's part of our nature. I hope and pray we all realize He is right, and make amends, before it's too late.

Festus

fluorescence wrote: »

I do seek the truth :P. One way of finding it is to examine the reasons others believe they have the truth!

Seek and you shall find. But you have to learn to look in the right places and ask the right questions.