Done deal and pedigree breeders.

Themadhouse

I can understand why people do not like done deal but it has been insinuated here on many occasions that anyone that advertises pedigree animals on the site should not be touched. Not everyone on that site is a puppy farmer or an unethical breeder. Plenty of IKC registered breeders and GCCFI breeders who are ethical in their breeding programs use this site. There is nothing wrong with advertising on this site as a responsible breeder.

I would like to see people educated on what to look for in a breeder rather than a NOOOOO DONT BUY A DOG FROM THERE. Encourage people to report ads that they feel are wrong.

The site also has ads encouraging neutering, rescue animals as well as the crossbreeds for 100 euro breeders.
Yes if you see a cat or a dog in terrible condition, non reg etc you should report it. If you see an add with a fully vet checked/chipped/vaxed/ registered/ you can see both parents animal why not contact them. At least then you will be able to get details such as dam and sire names and you can research that person or their kennels/cattery and see how ethical and prominant they are in the world of that breed.

I have seen horrible ads and I also have seen ads of people that are friends who are ethical breeders too. Some people are also in the position to breed a few different breeds of dogs and or cats so please dont think that some who does so is automatically a puppy farm or a bad breeder because this can be far from the truth.

I must admit I find the generalisation of the users of done deal very frustrating.

Cutie18Ireland

I've used donedeal to find both my dogs. Couldn't have come from better homes.
I have also reported many an ad on the site, usually pups being sold way to young and they always respond quickly and the ad is taken down very fast. They also remove any ads which are suspected puppy farms.

Shanao

Unfortunately, the problem is that most people in this country just dont give a **** where their dog is coming from. I dont like donedeal because of the amount of puppy farmers etc, but while I can see why some ethical breeders would put ads there to try and distinguish between a good breeder and a bad breeder, the thing is that they shouldn't have to, at least not to advertise puppies. Perfectly fine with them advertising their own websites, offering advice and the like, but not for puppies. If they're breeding, then they should be certain that there is going to be people already lined up for puppies so they should never have to advertise them. I also dont like the idea of a breeder who breeds more than three different breeds. I would prefer two at the maximum, but can understand how people love different breeds and may want more than one type. A good breeder should be well known, and well reccommended by breed clubs and other breed enthusiasts. They shouldn't need to advertise at all.

On the point of selling crossbreeds; I abhor the people crossing breeds and then selling them. Why where they crossed in the first place? Why are people charging money for what were being given away free just ten years ago?

The problem with Donedeal is that it is being exploited by puppy farmers and no one from the site cares because they can pretend that they check it and still line their pockets at the same time. The ordinary irish person has no idea what to look for in a good breeder, hence why we have the problem of BYBs and puppy farmers. And as long as donedeal is willing to accept these ads from these people, then I will continue to warn people away from it.

Themadhouse

Shanao wrote: »

Unfortunately, the problem is that most people in this country just dont give a **** where their dog is coming from. I dont like donedeal because of the amount of puppy farmers etc, but I can see why some ethical breeders would put ads there to try and distinguish between a good breeder and a bad breeder, but the thing is that they shouldn't have to, at least not to advertise puppies. Perfectly fine with them advertising their own websites, offering advice and the like, but not for puppies. If they're breeding, then they should be certain that there is going to be people already lined up for puppies so they should never have to advertise them. I also dont like the idea of a breeder who breeds more than three different breeds. I would prefer two at the maximum, but can understand how people love different breeds and may want more than one type. A good breeder should be well known, and well reccommended by breed clubs and other breed enthusiasts. They shouldn't need to advertise at all.

On the point of selling crossbreeds; I abhor the people crossing breeds and then selling them. Why where they crossed in the first place? Why are people charging money for what were being given away free just ten years ago?

The problem with Donedeal is that it is being exploited by puppy farmers and no one from the site cares because they can pretend that they check it and still line their pockets at the same time. The ordinary irish person has no idea what to look for in a good breeder, hence why we have the problem of BYBs and puppy farmers. And as long as donedeal is willing to accept these ads from these people, then I will continue to warn people away from it.

This is why we need to educate peple in what to look for in a breeder This is why a forum like this is read by people interested in buying a pedigree. When someone buys a dog or a cat they rarely know what to look for health wise/ health test wise etc.

Most people that contact a breeder ask to be put on a waiting list, but then they source elsewhere. Most breeders wont just allocate a pup or kitten, they will determine homes based on the needs or personality. By advertising on the likes of done deal it gives people, who dont understand to contact the IKC or GCCFI for a breeders list, an opportunity to find a breeder. 95% of enquiries are fluff but then you might find a perfect home from the other 5 %.
But then maybe i am seeing it from the feline side of things rather than the canine side of things. The IKC is well knownn, the GCCFI not so well known.

Cross breeding as you say is what was given away for free a few years ago. Now we have Labradoddles for ridiculus money, cavachons, etc. Genetics/typing/ health etc are jut not being considered.

pokertalk

Themadhouse wrote: »

This is why we need to educate peple in what to look for in a breeder This is why a forum like this is read by people interested in buying a pedigree. When someone buys a dog or a cat they rarely know what to look for health wise/ health test wise etc.

.

there is a sticky on this forum for that already http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056295154

Evac105

Themadhouse wrote: »

Cross breeding as you say is what was given away for free a few years ago. Now we have Labradoddles for ridiculus money, cavachons, etc. Genetics/typing/ health etc are jut not being considered.

Just as a point, insurance actuaries and numeraries consider any cross to be inherently healthier then a pure breed. This is reflected in the cost of insurance for them - 50% of the cost to insure a mixed breed roughly.

Having researched for 4-5 months on various breeds that interested me to own and finding out about some of the horrific side effects involved in developing pure breed dominant traits I chose to buy a cross, from DoneDeal, for a reasonable price (~100 euro) from someone who didn't throw up too many matches via Google. I would feel that I've gotten a more then fair deal for privilege of adding a third (beloved) member to our family.

If you're unaware of some of the more reprehensible breeding decisions by KC registered and, in some cases, Crufts winning breeders I recommend watching an award winning BBC documentary called Pedigree Breeds Exposed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXHFOrBbEc . I realise that many breeders have no higher priority then the health and well being of their pets but please remember that KC membership mainly only addresses the breeding of the animal - not whether it's in the animals best interest to be bred for those particular traits. Ethics on these matters are almost entirely on a breeder by breeder basis.

andreac

The main problem with donedeal is that people are deliberately crossing 2 breeds of dogs, giving it a ridiculous name and charging a fortune for what effectively is a mongrel, nothing else.

Cross breeds are usually healthier but that is not always the case. When people are crossing these pedigree dogs that havent been health tested, there is a high risk that you pass on health problems from both parents and the dog could be more unhealthy.

piperh

Themadhouse wrote: »

This is why a forum like this is read by people interested in buying a pedigree.

Not neccesarily so, I was looking a few mnths back, not particulary for a pedigree no breed was ruled in or out, because i knew i going to rescue. I spent ages going through the rescues and pounds on the internet but it wasn't until after i had found my pups that i found this forum. So if i had been intent on buying a pedigree there is no guarantee this site would have popped up, but i can't tell you how many times done deal popped up or somebody recommended it. I wasn't going to pay someone for a dog when there were so many out there that needed help but out of curiousity i did look and was surprised to see a couple of apparant rescues advertising pups, which must be quite confusing for some people not knowing who to trust as reputable.

In an ideal world people will do there research but i think most of us know someone who has got a pet on a whim because they saw an advert or it looked cute :rolleyes:

westies4ever

surely the point here is that donedeal should be policing their own site and only allowing adverts from responsible breeders, rather than relying on reports from the public?

I will never buy another dog - the amount of poor dogs and puppies in rescue in this country is disgraceful.

andreac

westies4ever wrote: »

surely the point here is that donedeal should be policing their own site and only allowing adverts from responsible breeders, rather than relying on reports from the public?

I will never buy another dog - the amount of poor dogs and puppies in rescue in this country is disgraceful.

Donedeal dont police the ads, its down to us unfortunately to report them. They are not screened or checked before they go live so a lot of ads get some air before they are reported.

westies4ever

andreac wrote: »

Donedeal dont police the ads, its down to us unfortunately to report them. They are not screened or checked before they go live so a lot of ads get some air before they are reported.

Exactly - which is why I feel they should be avoided!

Cherry Blossom

If you are looking for a site to advertise your pups on and you are an ethical breeder try :

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/

or

http://www.pedigreedogs.ie/

ISDW

I really don't know where this idea that crossbreeds are healthier than pedigrees came from. All of the advice is to only buy a pedigree pup from a breeder who carries out health tests. No breeder of cross breeds - unless they are actively trying to introduce a new breed - carries out health tests, so how is it logical that unhealth tested dogs are healthier than tested dogs?

My view on ethical breeders is that they shouldn't need to advertise on any of those websites, as they would only be breeding for themselves, and would sell the pups in the litter that they don't want onto people who have been checked out, and have been on a waiting list.

So in my, radical opinion, no breeder advertising on those sites is an ethical, responsible breeder.

username123

westies4ever wrote: »

Exactly - which is why I feel they should be avoided!

Couldnt agree more. Its a bit like the old cliche about being known by the company you keep. If I was a registered breeder Id stay a million miles away from donedeal because I wouldnt want to be associated with a site where puppy farmers advertise. To me it would be a bit like taking my waterford crystal and selling it alongside free McDonalds glasses at a car boot sale. A site where puppy farmers sell is a site a genuine breeder should want to stay away from - imo.

Steve30x

I bought a Yokshire Terrier from a woman that advertised on DoneDeal and the puppy was kept in her kitchen with the parents. She was'nt a puppy farmer in any way shape or form. She just had the 6 puppies.

Evac105

ISDW wrote: »

I really don't know where this idea that crossbreeds are healthier than pedigrees came from. All of the advice is to only buy a pedigree pup from a breeder who carries out health tests. No breeder of cross breeds - unless they are actively trying to introduce a new breed - carries out health tests, so how is it logical that unhealth tested dogs are healthier than tested dogs?

I'm not a vet or even involved in any animal health activities (aside from being raised on a farm and keeping a dog myself) but I have to imagine that insurance companies have done a lot of research on this prior to developing their pet insurance products. The only other explanations would be:

that they were cynically calculating that anyone who owned a pedigree pooch could be charged an unwarranted surcharge on the principal that they can afford it.

that, given similar symptoms, people who own pedigree dogs are more likely to seek Vet assistance for ailments then people who own mixed breeds

While there probably is some degree of this involved I would feel fairly confident in saying that if the premium for a pedigree dog is twice that of a mixed breed it's because the pedigree dog health costs in their historical data have proven to be roughly twice that of mixed breeds.

By the by, my previous point, that KC registered breeders doesn't necessarily mean someone who has a genuine interest in the dogs long term health (or their progeny) still stands. I would love to see the KC (and similar organisations) change their ways regarding this and adopt both an ethic standard that required this and change the show standard guidelines to facilitate pet health over the, sometimes very artificial, view they propagate of how the breeds should look.

ISDW

Evac105 wrote: »

I'm not a vet or even involved in any animal health activities (aside from being raised on a farm and keeping a dog myself) but I have to imagine that insurance companies have done a lot of research on this prior to developing their pet insurance products. The only other explanations would be:

that they were cynically calculating that anyone who owned a pedigree pooch could be charged an unwarranted surcharge on the principal that they can afford it.

that, given similar symptoms, people who own pedigree dogs are more likely to seek Vet assistance for ailments then people who own mixed breeds

While there probably is some degree of this involved I would feel fairly confident in saying that if the premium for a pedigree dog is twice that of a mixed breed it's because the pedigree dog health costs in their historical data have proven to be roughly twice that of mixed breeds.

By the by, my previous point, that KC registered breeders doesn't necessarily mean someone who has a genuine interest in the dogs long term health (or their progeny) still stands. I would love to see the KC (and similar organisations) change their ways regarding this and adopt both an ethic standard that required this and change the show standard guidelines to facilitate pet health over the, sometimes very artificial, view they propagate of how the breeds should look.

I would actually say that yes, it is their cynical calculations about people paying more for a pedigree etc, and seeking more medical help for a dog that they have paid a lot of money for. I would also imagine that the majority of people with dog insurance have pure breeds.

How is it logical that a puppy from two pedigree dogs - albeit two different breeds - is going to be healthier than a puppy from two dogs of the same breed?

I have crosses and pure breeds, have never noticed any difference in their health in any of the dogs that I've had. I had a rottie cross who died aged 5 due to lymphoma, which apparently is quite common in rotties - however, he wasn't a pure rottie, most definitely a cross, so he was no healthier than a pedigree.

Again, if people only buy dogs from ethical breeders, and make sure that all of the relevant health checks have been carried out on the parents - not just vet check ups, proper health checks - then we would have a much healthier dog population.

Evac105

Looking briefly on the web at a couple of Science articles on dog breeds it seems that the genetic differences between dog breeds is less then 0.2% which would seem to agree with your view.

My primary issue regarding the whole health issue with pedigree dogs mostly is the practice of breeding to standard when the 'standard' requires potentially detrimental physical attributes (King Charles skull too small, GSD hip problems, British Bulldog skulls too large, Rhodesian Ridgeback spinal and brain issues, etc). The genetic difference between a Rhodesian with and without a ridge is infinitesimal but in terms of potential health issues it's massive (and terrifying).

Are there any associations or organisations in Ireland which represent/encourage ethic breeders? It's a subject I'm quite curious about.

ISDW

Evac105 wrote: »

Looking briefly on the web at a couple of Science articles on dog breeds it seems that the genetic differences between dog breeds is less then 0.2% which would seem to agree with your view.

My primary issue regarding the whole health issue with pedigree dogs mostly is the practice of breeding to standard when the 'standard' requires potentially detrimental physical attributes (King Charles skull too small, GSD hip problems, British Bulldog skulls too large, Rhodesian Ridgeback spinal and brain issues, etc). The genetic difference between a Rhodesian with and without a ridge is infinitesimal but in terms of potential health issues it's massive (and terrifying).

Are there any associations or organisations in Ireland which represent/encourage ethic breeders? It's a subject I'm quite curious about.

I totally agree with you on the breed standards thing. Such a shame how certain breeds have changed so that they look pretty - according to some - to the detriment of their health, and the breeds' ability to do the job they're meant to do.

I guess the breed clubs are supposed to encourage ethical breeders, but if they're breeding to flawed breed standards, then I don't know.

Themadhouse

pokertalk wrote: »

there is a sticky on this forum for that already http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056295154

I saw that alright. It has some fantstic information but also states to stay away from the likes of done deal which is why i brought it up.

Themadhouse

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

If you are looking for a site to advertise your pups on and you are an ethical breeder try :

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/

or

http://www.pedigreedogs.ie/

Thanks for that. good links. Is it ran differently to say done deal? I noticed people would prefer ads to be vetted before being placed rather than the ordinary folk having to report seemingly dodgy ads. Does pedigreedogs.ie do this?

lrushe

Steve30x wrote: »

I bought a Yokshire Terrier from a woman that advertised on DoneDeal and the puppy was kept in her kitchen with the parents. She was'nt a puppy farmer in any way shape or form. She just had the 6 puppies.

This is a common thing that people make a mistake on because not every BYB is a horrible monster who doesn't love their dogs and leaves them in a shed to breed time and time again. However a BYB is as guilty of producing badly bred dogs as a puppy farmer though just not on the same scale.
If this lady you bought your pup from showed/worked and health tested the bitch and also spent time researching bloodlines to find a stud to complement her bitch before breeding then that's great, if not she is is just adding to the glut poorly bred pedigree dogs out there, unfortunately when it comes to breeding dogs just loving them is not enough.

Themadhouse

Evac105 wrote: »

Just as a point, insurance actuaries and numeraries consider any cross to be inherently healthier then a pure breed. This is reflected in the cost of insurance for them - 50% of the cost to insure a mixed breed roughly.

Having researched for 4-5 months on various breeds that interested me to own and finding out about some of the horrific side effects involved in developing pure breed dominant traits I chose to buy a cross, from DoneDeal, for a reasonable price (~100 euro) from someone who didn't throw up too many matches via Google. I would feel that I've gotten a more then fair deal for privilege of adding a third (beloved) member to our family.

If you're unaware of some of the more reprehensible breeding decisions by KC registered and, in some cases, Crufts winning breeders I recommend watching an award winning BBC documentary called Pedigree Breeds Exposed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXHFOrBbEc . I realise that many breeders have no higher priority then the health and well being of their pets but please remember that KC membership mainly only addresses the breeding of the animal - not whether it's in the animals best interest to be bred for those particular traits. Ethics on these matters are almost entirely on a breeder by breeder basis.

I realise what happens int he breedign world, yes. I know that realistically the IKC dont really ahve control over their breeders or be able to enforce ethic into the kennels and it is a shame that dogs have been altered to suit a show standard. The same in the cat world. Persians come to mind where they have been altered to suit a standard that is causing a health issue for the breed.

If you get a crossbreed lab or gsd or retreiver etc you could have a dog with very early hip issues so really no guarentee that cross breeds are healthier. Yes the ethics are fully on the breeder, it is their choice. Do they do it for money or for the love ( and ultimately a loss on litters)?

It still doesnt make sense to tar all breeders the same be it ethics wise or because they advertise on done deal.

Themadhouse

username123 wrote: »

Couldnt agree more. Its a bit like the old cliche about being known by the company you keep. If I was a registered breeder Id stay a million miles away from donedeal because I wouldnt want to be associated with a site where puppy farmers advertise. To me it would be a bit like taking my waterford crystal and selling it alongside free McDonalds glasses at a car boot sale. A site where puppy farmers sell is a site a genuine breeder should want to stay away from - imo.

Its an advertising site, this is purely what it is for. Yes there are a lot of different types of people there who advertise. Some genuine and some not so. The same as advertising on a specific breed website. Should they stay away from newspapers oo incase the newspapers have ads in it from BYB's?

the pictures of happy puppies with momma in a clean homely environment, vaxed, chipped etc etc V the sad dirty pups, in a filthy environment, no pic of momma, weepy eyes, no vax, no chip, take them at 6 weeks old etc. Maybe it makes some people think about the BYB?

planetX

Recessive gene pairing is far more likely in a small inbred population, which is why so many health problems are more common in certain breeds. Breeds of dog only exist in the first place because of the restriction of the gene pool, which has also concentrated the occurence of various problems. Outbreeding can only be a good thing for dogs, mixing should dilute the health issues. I'm not a fan of pedigree anything, I like that breeds are being crossed - don't like the prices though...

Themadhouse

planetX wrote: »

Recessive gene pairing is far more likely in a small inbred population, which is why so many health problems are more common in certain breeds. Breeds of dog only exist in the first place because of the restriction of the gene pool, which has also concentrated the occurence of various problems. Outbreeding can only be a good thing for dogs, mixing should dilute the health issues. I'm not a fan of pedigree anything, I like that breeds are being crossed - don't like the prices though...

A pedigree cert should always indicate the percentage of inbreeding. Plenty of health issues can be bred out by the relevant tests without the need to alter the breed. Things can crop up and its up top breeder to take the relevant animals from the breeding program.
Sometime a small percentage of inbreedig is needed to maintain a healthy line but this can be pushed out in a generation or two( grandfather to grand or great grand daugther say).

username123

Themadhouse wrote: »

Its an advertising site, this is purely what it is for. Yes there are a lot of different types of people there who advertise. Some genuine and some not so. The same as advertising on a specific breed website. Should they stay away from newspapers oo incase the newspapers have ads in it from BYB's?

In response to this, I agree with this:

ISDW wrote: »

My view on ethical breeders is that they shouldn't need to advertise on any of those websites, as they would only be breeding for themselves, and would sell the pups in the litter that they don't want onto people who have been checked out, and have been on a waiting list.

So in my, radical opinion, no breeder advertising on those sites is an ethical, responsible breeder.

Themadhouse

username123 wrote: »

In response to this, I agree with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISDW
My view on ethical breeders is that they shouldn't need to advertise on any of those websites, as they would only be breeding for themselves, and would sell the pups in the litter that they don't want onto people who have been checked out, and have been on a waiting list.

So in my, radical opinion, no breeder advertising on those sites is an ethical, responsible breeder.
...................................................................................................................................

The above is supposed to be a multi quote but i couldnt manage it! doh!:)


This is my reply to the above.:D
Breeding for them selves will result in a huge amount of animals in a house. Not out of every litter is a breeder hoping to get a keeper as they might have a pup from the same mating so it's pointless to keep another. Yes a breeder breeds to maintain and improve their chosen breed but they also breed for the love and so others can experience owning the same. Stud dogs might not be readily available so it can be hard to keep lines fresh.

A waiting list is important, I completely agree and would hope that breeders thoroughly vet the applicants. But sometimes the litter doesnt match the waiting list. You might have a litter of 5 males. The breeder in the uk was looking for a breedig quality girl so no luck there. 2 people were looking for show quailty males but the only 2 show quality ones have problems, one has an undescended testlcle and the other a hernia, so both unable to show. The other 5 possible homes were looking for female pets, one or two might change their minds and go with a male but you are still left with puppies and no homes. Sometimes puppies personalities dont match the homes that are waiting for various reasons, some poeple on the waiting list change their minds as circumstances have changed etc. And sometimes the homes are just not good enough.
So the pups are now 3 months old and you need to start trying to look into options.
Sometimes these options involve placing an ad on the likes of done deal. yes its a pain as you wade through all the ridiculous enquiries, the dodgy ones, the ones that you wouldnt leave a plant with. But you might hit on a home that is perfect for that little pup.

Things happen and breeders cant determine the number in a litter, males or females, show quality or pet quality, a pup needing a house with no kids, a boistrous pup that will need a lot of attention etc. In an ideal world yes the breeder should have a home lined up for every situation. In reality this never happens. And sometimes they have no choice but to put themselves out there on what ever advertising site there is.

Discodog

One of the key warnings in the Boards sticky is that Puppy Farm dogs are often sold in nice family homes & sometimes with nice, totally fake paperwork.

I would never buy a dog from Donedeal under any circumstances - mind you I would never buy a dog !

Shanao

Any responsible breeder should have homes lined up for the dogs, should have a waiting list prepared and homes vetted before even considering breeding the dogs. A reputable breeder can have a waiting list of dozens of people at one time, highly unlikely that all of these are going to be looking for something in specific beyond no more than a healthy puppy.

If any of these homes fall through, then they should be willing to keep the puppies themselves. They can spread the word through their breed club, on their own websites, but once more, I cannot see any point in advertising on a site like donedeal. Who's to say that the home you vet is the home that the puppy is going to go to? There are far too many irreputable people browsing that site, like puppy farmers, they will have ways to make themselves look like a proper home. You would be surprised what some people are willing to do if they see something they want.

Perhaps there may be a lot of animals in the house of a breeder who's homes dont work out, but any responsible breeder should have committed themselves to taking back any pups/dogs that dont work out anyway, so either way it should work out the same.

Themadhouse

username123 wrote: »

In response to this, I agree with this:

Discodog wrote: »

One of the key warnings in the Boards sticky is that Puppy Farm dogs are often sold in nice family homes & sometimes with nice, totally fake paperwork.

I would never buy a dog from Donedeal under any circumstances - mind you I would never buy a dog !

It is important alright that people are aware of fake papers. a lot of puppy farmers know how to give a good impression. ANd yep it is up to the buyer to research the person and the kennel they have contacted.