Ex Garda Admits to not 'complying with rules' in murder trial.

Finnbar01

A retired detective superintendent has told a murder trial that he did not comply with regulations when interviewing one of the suspects.

PJ Browne was being cross examined about a suspect, who has been granted immunity in exchange for testifying against the four defendants on trial at the Central Criminal Court

Mr Browne agreed with Michael O’Higgins SC, defending Damien Johnston, that he should have video recorded his interviews with a fifth suspect, Joseph O’Brien, who admitted being heavily involved in the murder but was never charged.

This is very strange and disturbing.

A retired detective superintendent has told a murder trial that he did not comply with regulations when interviewing one of the suspects.

PJ Browne was being cross examined about a suspect, who has been granted immunity in exchange for testifying against the four defendants on trial at the Central Criminal Court.

Father-of-two Bernard Hempenstall (aged 28) from Park Terrace, The Coombe; Peter Kenny (aged 28) of McCarthy’s Terrace, Rialto; Damien Johnston (aged 27) of Cashel Avenue, Crumlin; and Christopher Zambra (aged 35) of Galtymore Road, Drimnagh have all pleaded not guilty to murdering a father-of-three in a Dublin pub.

John Carroll (aged 33) was shot dead while socialising in Grumpy Jack’s Pub in the Coombe just after 9.30pm on February 18, 2009.

Mr Browne agreed with Michael O’Higgins SC, defending Damien Johnston, that he should have video recorded his interviews with a fifth suspect, Joseph O’Brien, who admitted being heavily involved in the murder but was never charged.

“I didn’t do what I was supposed to do,” said Mr Browne, agreeing that the law required that interviews with suspects should be recorded on camera.

“I didn’t comply with regulations while Joseph O’Brien was in custody,” he said.

The court had already heard that when O’Brien was arrested at Dublin Port two nights after the murder, he requested a private meeting with the then detective superintendent and that this was granted.

Instead of being brought to an interview room as would usually be the case, he was taken to Det. Super. Browne’s office in Pearse Street Garda Station.

“It’s not up to the citizen to opt out of the statutory requirements, is it? The citizen in custody doesn’t call the shots and request private meetings with the guards, do they?” asked Mr O’Higgins.

“They don’t,” replied Mr Browne.

Mr O’Higgins asked him what a private meeting meant.

“I took it that he wanted to see me off camera,” explained Mr Browne.

Mr O’Higgins asked what would be wrong with telling O’Brien that he would be treated like every other murder suspect, be taken to an interview room, receive legal advice and be interrogated by gardaí.

“Nothing,” replied Mr Browne.

“How many other murder suspects can get private meetings with the top man and bring about a situation where they’re never charged with such a terrible crime?” asked the barrister.

“I’m not aware,” answered Mr Browne.

Mr Browne said that O’Brien wouldn’t tell the gardaí anything until the Witness Protection Programme was explained to him, but he did not agree with Mr O’Higgins that the suspect was "laying down terms and conditions".

He agreed that O’Brien was brought to his office again the following morning for another private meeting.

“He wanted to speak to me in private again,” he explained.

“This is the most farcical aspect of your testimony, that the murderer gets to dictate how it’s done,” said Mr O’Higgins.

“Maybe you were more anxious to stay off camera than he was,” suggested the barrister.

“I had nothing to hide,” replied Mr Browne.

When asked, Mr Browne explained that the video recording of interviews was brought into law to protect both prisoner and garda, following allegations of improper conduct.

“I don’t think Joseph O’Brien is making any allegations against me,” he added.

“But Mr O’Brien’s account of what happened is completely at variance with yours,” said Mr O’Higgins, pointing out that O’Brien said the gardaí introduced the topic of the Witness Protection Programme and only after he had given his statement.

Mr O’Higgins put it to him that they began recording the interviews after "the story was got straight". Mr Browne said he did not like that use of words.

Mr Browne agreed that he was the one who brought up the issue of immunity, but said that this was in the context of the Witness Protection Programme. He said he raised it, explaining that he couldn’t grant immunity, so that O’Brien would be under no illusions.

“I didn’t consider it an opening for him,” he said.

“Well you were wrong, because what you didn’t consider an opening has resulted in him not being charged at all,” remarked Mr O’Higgins. “The man made a full confession to being heavily involved in a murder and was never charged.”

The trial continues before Mr Justice Barry White and a jury of eight men and four women.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ex-garda-admits-to-not-complying-with-rules-in-murder-trial-510637.html#ixzz1QauYZ3gZ

Wolfe Tone

Its a shame there are far far more corrupt and incompetent Garda than decent ones.

FatherLen

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its a shame there are far far more corrupt and incompetent Garda than decent ones.

incompetent yeah sure but you cant say that the majority of police in this country are corrupt.

Finnbar01

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its a shame there are far far more corrupt and incompetent Garda than decent ones.

I definately wouldn't say the bad outstrip the good.

stovelid

Anybody knows that hard bitten, maverick detectives have to play outside the rules to bring the perp to justice, especially when the DA is on his ass.

I assume the Gard is question was separated from his wife and living in a converted docklands warehouse at the time?

Sunnyisland

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its a shame there are far far more corrupt and incompetent Garda than decent ones.

Wolfe tone most guards are upstanding members of the force and are doing there best in very hard & sometimes thankless circumstances,there are a few that are corrupt and there are a few who are incompetent but the majority would be good ones and I say that as person who has had a fair amount of dealings with them .

krudler

stovelid wrote: »

Anybody knows that hard bitten, maverick detectives have to play outside the the rules to bring the perp to justice, especially when the DA is on his ass.

I assume the Gard is question was separated from his wife and living in a converted docklands warehouse at the time?

"You're a loose cannon O'Reilly! and the department cant afford to pay for any more of your stunts like that demolition derby you started chasing those European diplomats! We know they're dirty but they're got immunity and we can't touch them, so stay away from this case!"

Hunter Mahan

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its a shame there are far far more corrupt and incompetent Garda than decent ones.

Same old ding dong from you... First to post in any thread with Garda in it..

Did you actually read the article before you posted? Where is there any mention of corruption, do you know what corruption means?

This is a legal argument, if unsuccessful, then 4 murderers will be locked up.
How else do you think Gardai get people to give evidence and go into the witness protection scheme?

What age are you?

stovelid

krudler wrote: »

"You're a loose cannon O'Reilly! and the department cant afford to pay for any more of your stunts like that demolition derby you started chasing those European diplomats! We know they're dirty but they're got immunity and we can't touch them, so stay away from this case!"

The guy that says this is a big black guy (with a walrus 'tache) behind a smoky desk in a disheveled suit and he has to bang the paper-strewn desk for emphasis. There may well be a ceiling fan in the background and a Styrofoam coffee cup and doughnut wrapper on the desk too.

See Starsky and Hutch opening credits for reference.

Finnbar01

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

Same old ding dong from you... First to post in any thread with Garda in it..

Did you actually read the article before you posted? Where is there any mention of corruption, do you know what corruption means?

This is a legal argument, if unsuccessful, then 4 murderers will be locked up.
How else do you think Gardai get people to give evidence and go into the witness protection scheme?

What age are you?

I don't understand what you mean by: This is a legal argument?

KeithAFC

The Garda are a fantastic police force and do the best job they can. Well done Garda in your good policing.

Hunter Mahan

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I don't understand what you mean by: This is a legal argument?

Barristers always look for an angle, it's their job and they are good at it.

In cases where someone involved in the incident in question has turned "state" and is giving evidence against his associates in return for protection/immunity, then the defendants legal team will do their utmost to discredit that witness and question his motives.

Imagine if the defense can convince a judge that the manner in which "the rat" was recruited was unlawful, so his evidence can't be heard, or if he does give evidence, they can convince the jury he's unreliable. That's a job well done.

My name is URL

I was just reading about another Garda related story a couple of mins ago.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/gardai-attacked-man-slept-113744020.html

There's definitely a bad element within the force. I'm not for one minute trying to say that it's indicative of AGS as a whole, but it's there.. and the instantaneous rush to protect those who have been shown to do wrong doesn't help to improve things.

Sunnyisland

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Garda are a fantastic police force and do the best job they can. Well done Garda in your good policing.

Says the UVF supporter who couldn't care less either way what the guards are doing down here.

Hunter Mahan

My name is URL wrote: »

I was just reading about another Garda related story a couple of mins ago.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/gardai-attacked-man-slept-113744020.html

There's definitely a bad element within the force. I'm not for one minute trying to say that it's indicative of AGS as a whole, but it's there.. and the instantaneous rush to protect those who have been shown to do wrong doesn't help to improve things.

There is no defending that if true, and the Gardai involved should feel the full wrath of the law if convicted.

super_furry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7llLFbV97bs

charlemont

Its the system itself, It rewards this sort of thing, And those involved dont see any wrong in twisting the law to get a result.

Not that its a bad thing if it rids the streets of a murderer.

Sunnyisland

Its to be expected that some garda break there own rules & laws, I am old enough to remember the heavy gang (old murder squad) who got many of there statements by brute force,But i am still of the opinion that most are to be trusted with implementing the law in a fair way.

Finnbar01

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

Barristers always look for an angle, it's their job and they are good at it.

In cases where someone involved in the incident in question has turned "state" and is giving evidence against his associates in return for protection/immunity, then the defendants legal team will do their utmost to discredit that witness and question his motives.

Imagine if the defense can convince a judge that the manner in which "the rat" was recruited was unlawful, so his evidence can't be heard, or if he does give evidence, they can convince the jury he's unreliable. That's a job well done.

Ok, I misread your post. I thought you were trying to argue that the case was about whether or not what the ex garda did was right or wrong. Clearly (as far as we know) he was in the wrong.

Those procedures are put in place, not only to protect the suspect but to protect the garda as well. He decided to break with those procedures, and quite clearly has left himself open to blackmail, false accusations and in this case, his reputation and credibility.

I do agree with the approach that the defense has taken. After all that's their job.

Rawhead

super_furry wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7llLFbV97bs

Ah McBain, we sorely miss your crime fighting style, no one could bring Commie Nazi's to book quiet like yourself.
At least we have that O'Carroll fella writing in the Herald, he's the next best thing.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Garda are a fantastic police force and do the best job they can. Well done Garda in your good policing.

Not quite as good as the PSNI though when it comes to harassment are they?

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Not quite as good as the PSNI though when it comes to harassment are they?

I don't know.

giles lynchwood

Four Garda in waterford were recently sent foward for trial by the district court,they were caught on cctv handcuffing then useing their batons on a young man for no apperant reason as he walked home alone after a night out,one of the garda involved has also been charged with trying to pervert the course of justice,a very serious offence,it will be very intresting to see the outcome of this.The problem with our gardai is that they think they are above the law not just enforcers of it.Any member of the force that turn´s a blind eye to this type of behaviour and fail´s to report it is also guilty of a crime,in other word´s they are all bent copper´s.

HazDanz

krudler wrote: »

"You're a loose cannon O'Reilly! and the department cant afford to pay for any more of your stunts like that demolition derby you started chasing those European diplomats! We know they're dirty but they're got immunity and we can't touch them, so stay away from this case!"

Diplomatic immunity... Lethal weapon has plagued me with saying it like this guy in my head!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiXNUaSjXRY

tayto lover

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its a shame there are far far more corrupt and incompetent Garda than decent ones.

You wish. You are constantly bringing every wee bit of this kind of stuff up. What about the murders committed by the mob you love, Jerry McCabe, Jean McConville, the Disappeared etc etc. You and you're lot don't like discussing this.
There are bad apples in the Garda no doubt but as the old saying goes "put your own house in order". Sinn Fein is full of hypocrits.

ancapailldorcha

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

There is no defending that if true, and the Gardai involved should feel the full wrath of the law if convicted.

That'll be a full pardon in case they get a hard time in prison.

Wolfe Tone

tayto lover wrote: »

You wish. You are constantly bringing every wee bit of this kind of stuff up. What about the murders committed by the mob you love, Jerry McCabe, Jean McConville, the Disappeared etc etc. You and you're lot don't like discussing this.
There are bad apples in the Garda no doubt but as the old saying goes "put your own house in order". Sinn Fein is full of hypocrits.

On the contrary, I don't mind discussing those type of things at all.

Don't know why you are bringing up SF tbh, I'm very much my own man.

On the gardaí, many of them are incompetent, many others are "bad eggs" and others still are good Garda, its just a shame that there is not more of them.

MagicSean

I can't see the problem here. It's one thing if they accused the Garda of influencing the suspect but they appear to have been offering him witness protection in exchange for his testimony. I think it's crazy that we do not have a proper system of plea bargaining in this country and this simply highlights the need for it. What kind of idiot would agree to join a witness protection program and testify against his co-offenders on camera?

I would also question wether it is in fact a breach of the regulations. If the man in custody declined legal representation and declined to be video recorded then I don't really see where the breach is, especially considering none of the information obtained off camera was used in evidence.

mattjack

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its a shame there are far far more corrupt and incompetent Garda than decent ones.

why don,t you report any corrupt Gardai you know ?

ancapailldorcha

mattjack wrote: »

why don,t you report any corrupt Gardai you know ?

He'd probably end up getting beaten half to death if he did.

funkyouup

Because its easier for him to come on here and talk ****e:)

tayto lover

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

He'd probably end up getting beaten half to death if he did.

another keyboard hero with a grudge.

mattjack

funkyouup wrote: »

Because its easier for him to come on here and talk ****e:)

yeah I know...

Finnbar01

Let's not turn this into a garda bashing thread please.


Mr Higgins is the defence council. See what he has done here?

“This is the most farcical aspect of your testimony, that the murderer gets to dictate how it’s done,” said Mr O’Higgins.

ancapailldorcha

Seriously, what good would it do? We've seen what they get away with. They're meant to be a public service. They framed Frank McBrearty and the guys in charge of that got moved about. And what about that poor lad in Cork who got beat so badly he got bleeds in the brain?

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Let's not turn this into a garda bashing thread please.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this?

Mr Higgins is the defence council.

It's odd because the suspect often gets to dictate. They have to consent to a line up, consent to bail, accept their notice of rights and their charge sheets. They can also decline to say a single word or refuse to cooperate with an interview.

Wolfe Tone

mattjack wrote: »

why don,t you report any corrupt Gardai you know ?

Who says I haven't?

I know quite a few people who have correctly reported Garda misbehavior to the ombudsman.

Luckily I haven't been on the receiving end of Gardaí bare faced lying to Judges in court, making things up <insert other examples of Garda misbehavior here> etc etc... Yet.

tayto lover

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Seriously, what good would it do? We've seen what they get away with. They're meant to be a public service. They framed Frank McBrearty and the guys in charge of that got moved about. And what about that poor lad in Cork who got beat so badly he got bleeds in the brain?

And who investigated those cases ? The good Garda !! They have around 14 thousand in the force and thankfully very few of them are bad apples. No more than any other profession has.

mattjack

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Who says I haven't?

I know quite a few people who have correctly reported Garda misbehavior to the ombudsman.

Luckily I haven't been on the receiving end of Gardaí bare faced lying to Judges in court, making things up <insert other examples of Garda misbehavior here> etc etc... Yet.

well..have you ?

MagicSean

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Seriously, what good would it do? We've seen what they get away with. They're meant to be a public service. They framed Frank McBrearty and the guys in charge of that got moved about. And what about that poor lad in Cork who got beat so badly he got bleeds in the brain?

That Garda got kicked from the force and received a suspended sentence. The McBrearty situation highlighted the failings of the disciplinary system which has now been replaced with the Ombudsman. The Gardaí involved in the false imprisonment thing were all charged.

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

It's odd because the suspect often gets to dictate. They have to consent to a line up, consent to bail, accept their notice of rights and their charge sheets. They can also decline to say a single word or refuse to cooperate with an interview.

Nope! Try again Seanbeag1. :cool:

Snakeblood

stovelid wrote: »

Anybody knows that hard bitten, maverick detectives have to play outside the rules to bring the perp to justice, especially when the DA is on his ass.

I assume the Gard is question was separated from his wife and living in a converted docklands warehouse at the time?

I believe he frequently played the bodhran silhouetted against the flashing neon 'For Sale' sign near his window.

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Nope! Try again Seanbeag1. :cool:

Try what?

tayto lover

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Who says I haven't?

I know quite a few people who have correctly reported Garda misbehavior to the ombudsman.

Luckily I haven't been on the receiving end of Gardaí bare faced lying to Judges in court, making things up <insert other examples of Garda misbehavior here> etc etc... Yet.

Luckily we have an ombudsman to complain to. Unlike the poor victims of the baseball bat heroes who have no S.F. ombudsman to complain to.

Sunnyisland

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I can't see the problem here. It's one thing if they accused the Garden of influencing the suspect but they appear to have been offering him witness protection in exchange for his testimony. I think it's crazy that we do not have a proper system of plea bargaining in this country and this simply highlights the need for it. What kind of idiot would agree to join a witness protection program and testify against his co-offenders on camera?

I would also question whether it is in fact a breach of the regulations. If the man in custody declined legal representation and declined to be video recorded then I don't really see where the breach is, especially considering none of the information obtained off camera was used in evidence.

Since garda officers uphold the law, they are expected to be the first ones to follow the law. The regulations are there for both sides so what is happening in this trial now shouldn't happen.

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Try what?

Ok maybe it's just me.

“This is the most farcical aspect of your testimony, that the murderer gets to dictate how it’s done,” said Mr O’Higgins.

Who's the murderer?

Sunnyisland

tayto lover wrote: »

Luckily we have an ombudsman to complain to. Unlike the poor victims of the baseball bat heroes who have no S.F. ombudsman to complain to.

This is about the a garda in a trial why are you derailing the thread ? there are enough SF bashing thread around,join one of them.

Wolfe Tone

tayto lover wrote: »

Luckily we have an ombudsman to complain to. Unlike the poor victims of the baseball bat heroes who have no S.F. ombudsman to complain to.

What does SF have to do with any of this? Nothing, thats what.


Garda ombudsman is far from ideal but its something, the "snug" relationship between the judiciary and the gardaí is worse, although not as bad as it once was.

MagicSean

realies wrote: »

Since garda officers uphold the law, they are expected to be the first ones to follow the law. The regulations are there for both sides so what is happening in this trial now shouldn't happen.

Like I said, I don't see how it is a breach of the regulations as it wasn't an interview and nothing said in the meeting was used in evidence.

tayto lover

realies wrote: »

This is about the a garda in a trial why are you derailing the thread ? there are enough SF bashing thread around,join one of them.

I would have thought there were more garda bashing threads, usually ran and by S.F. people, and i am only trying to balance it out.

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Ok maybe it's just me.



Who's the murderer?

Ah right. He's the defence for a different suspect. He is trying to make it seem like the guy who wasn't charged because of the plea bargain is the murderer and his client is being shafted.