Is Gold a bubble?

Freiheit

or it there concrete reasons for it's rise?. Heard about a histotical ratio between that and silver, thoughts?.
Danke
F

irishh_bob

Freiheit wrote: »

or it there concrete reasons for it's rise?. Heard about a histotical ratio between that and silver, thoughts?.
Danke
F

gold is also seen as a defensive investment against turbelence in the global economy and a hedge against inflation and the weakening of currencys , the american goverments policy of quantative easing this past number of years has corresponded with a sharp rise in the price of gold , as to whether its a bubble , some say it is due to its seven fold increase in value since around 2001 but thier are good reasons for it to stay strong for a while with such uncertainty in the global economy , experts will tell you it should be seen as an insurance rather than an investment , a protection against inflation through the weakining of currency , gold in euro has only gone up 2 % in the past 52 wks so its no more rewarding than a savings account a lot of the time

mickman

yes it a bubble because of paper currencies being devalued. this wont last forever but the bubble can and will prob go way higher and longer than most people think

SyntonFenix

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/infographic-gold-bubble

Merch

I've read about it being a bubble, but how exactly does one go about buying gold?
This may sound stupid, do you buy it and hold it physically? or do you have a certificate of ownership?
I know a person that has told me they physically bought a very small quantity of gold, I cant see the value of buying in small quantity physically or not.
Surely there are transaction fees that will cover its purchase or sale? that will wipe out profits on a small scale?

upforit101

Warren buffet thinks Gold is a barbarous relic

willietherock

Longterm return from gold is around 1% real. I'd imagine buying after a ten yr bull run is decidedly negative on most investments particularily a non-income producing one which requires solely on someone buying at a higher price at somefuture date.

OfflerCrocGod

upforit101 wrote: »

Warren buffet thinks Gold is a barbarous relic

On that note here are his musings from the latest shareholders letter.

Warren Buffet wrote:

Gold, however,has two significant shortcomings, being neither of much use nor procreative. True, gold has some industrial and decorative utility, but the demand for these purposes is both limited and incapable of soaking up new production. Meanwhile, if you own one ounce of gold for an eternity, you will still own one ounce at its end.

What motivates most gold purchasers is their belief that the ranks of the fearful will grow. During the past decade that belief has proved correct. Beyond that, the rising price has on its own generated additional buying enthusiasm, attracting purchasers who see the rise as validating an investment thesis.As “bandwagon” investors join any party, they create their own truth – for a while.

Over the past 15 years, both Internet stocks and houses have demonstrated the extraordinary excesses that can be created by combining an initially sensible thesis with well-publicized rising prices. In these bubbles, an army of originally skeptical investors succumbed to the “proof” delivered by the market,and the pool of buyers – for a time – expanded sufficiently to keep the bandwagon rolling. But bubbles blown large enough inevitably pop. And then the old proverb is confirmed once again: “What the wise man does in the beginning, the fool does in the end.”

Today the world’s gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At$1,750 per ounce – gold’s price as I write this – its value would be $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A.

Let’s now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 Exxon Mobils (the world’s most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-around money (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B?

Beyond the staggering valuation given the existing stock of gold, current prices make today’s annual production of gold command about $160 billion. Buyers – whether jewelry and industrial users,frightened individuals, or speculators – must continually absorb this additional supply to merely maintain an equilibrium at present prices.

A century from now the 400 million acres of farmland will have produced staggering amounts of corn,wheat, cotton, and other crops – and will continue to produce that valuable bounty, whatever the currency may be. Exxon Mobil will probably have delivered trillions of dollars in dividends to its owners and will also hold assets worth many more trillions (and, remember, you get 16 Exxons). The170,000 tons of gold will be unchanged in size and still incapable of producing anything. You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.

Admittedly, when people a century from now are fearful, it’s likely many will still rush to gold. I’m confident, however, that the $9.6 trillion current valuation of pile A will compound over the century at a rate far inferior to that achieved by pile B.

I know which pile I'd rather have.

turbobaby

It's true that gold does not pay a dividend, nor is there any output produced by gold. That is because it is money, not an investment.

People need to compare apples with other apples.

Gold vs other curriencies, not stocks.

The advantage of holding other currencies instead of gold is that they earn interest. But since the gradual introduction of very easy monetary policies from central banks over the last two decades, the real interest earned is diminishing, and is now negative (as inflation is higher than interest paid). That is the reason why people are holding gold raher than dollars, yen, euros and pounds. Not mentioning the lack of counterparty risk too! It's very simple really.

Here's an interesting chart. The performance of Berk Hat in terms of real money.

ygolometsipe

upforit101 wrote: »

Warren buffet thinks Gold is a barbarous relic

but....

"
The bluntest difference? Perhaps it’s Warren Buffett. The famous “value investor” has said he doesn’t understand gold, because it has “no utility”. Never mind its 5,000-year history of storing wealth. Anyone watching the gold market from Mars “would be scratching their head” to see it “dug up in Africa” only to be buried again in a vault underground, says Buffett.
Yet his Berkshire Hathaway fund tried to corner the silver market in the late 1990s, selling its massive position in 2006 for a fair profit. So while Buffett doesn’t “get” gold, his Graham-and-Dodd value investing made silver a valid play. Because he thought it was undervalued against the outlook for industrial demand.
Gold analysts are spared having to guess how technology might affect prices. Whereas the bigger prize – for you, Warren Buffett and for the Hunt brothers, who famously attempted a silver corner in the late 1970s – may look to be in judging silver’s future mix of monetary, investment and industrial use. "


http://countingpips.com/fx/2011/04/07/warren-buffett-%E2%80%93-the-difference-between-gold-and-silver/


He made a whopping amount of money trading silver.


In 1997, Warren Buffett purchased 130 million troy ounces (4,000 metric tons) of silver at approximately $4.50 per troy ounce (total value $585 million). On May 6, 2006, Buffett announced to shareholders that his company no longer held any silver.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_as_an_investment

OfflerCrocGod

turbobaby wrote: »

It's true that gold does not pay a dividend, nor is there any output produced by gold. That is because it is money, not an investment.

The advantage of holding other currencies instead of gold is that they earn interest.

Those statements are contradictory. Currencies yield, as you say, then you say that gold is money and that's why it doesn't yield anything.

eh?

That chart appears to imply Berkshire Hathaway has increased in value 70 times faster then gold.

Warren Buffet bought silver not due to his belief it was money but due to its industrial uses increasing significantly, just as he would buy oil or natural gas if it was undervalued given their possible future industrial uses. It has nothing to do with monetary use, in fact it seems he has sold out of silver now.

turbobaby

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

Those statements are contradictory. Currencies yield, as you say, then you say that gold is money and that's why it doesn't yield anything.

eh?

That chart appears to imply Berkshire Hathaway has increased in value 70 times faster then gold.

Warren Buffet bought silver not due to his belief it was money but due to its industrial uses increasing significantly, just as he would buy oil or natural gas if it was undervalued given their possible future industrial uses. It has nothing to do with monetary use, in fact it seems he has sold out of silver now.

Gold is a form of money, just like the dollar is a form of money. They are different forms of money. Not investments. Perhaps you could class fiat money as paper currency and gold as asset/commodity currency. The terms don't matter, it's basic knowledge that tells you gold is not an investment as you and your hero Buffet correctly pointed out.

Yes, BH increased multiple fold against gold, as Buffet invested excellently and returned better results than had he not invested i.e. held his wealth in Dollars or Gold). His excellent results are skewed upwards when you present them against weaker forms of money such as dollars or euros.

I have approx 10% of my wealth in liquid cash i.e. precious metals and some euros. I have 90% invested in stocks.

OfflerCrocGod

Can you pay your taxes, or pay for goods in stores with gold?

turbobaby

Yes, with EuroPac Bank you can purchase gold with fiat currency, have it held in storage for you, meanwhile you receive a debit card and can make purchases using this card. Your balance is reduced based on the spot price at that time.

As confidence in the dollar erodes, people with turn to other fiat currencies and maybe even precious metals.

By the way, I am not suggesting people keep everything they own in gold, of course you need some fiat currency. I am suggesting that if somebody wants to save for the future (i.e. the amount left over after you have bought all you need and paid your taxes) you should consider gold, if you don't have the appetite to buy stocks of bonds.

I am surprised you have not brought up the fact it is subject to CGT - i.e treated as an investment by the revenue rather than money. This is a disadvantage of course.

OfflerCrocGod

So is any commodity that you make a profit on - the fact I pay tax on profits made on Orange Juice doesn't make it a currency.

What happens with the EuroPacific account is they sell the gold and turn into a currency and thereby allowing you to purchase with the card.

If the price of gold were to fall then you would be able to buy less. Goods and taxes are payed on fixed currency amounts not on fixed commodity amounts.

It simply isn't a currency, if it's a currency then so is Oil.

turbobaby

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

So is any commodity that you make a profit on - the fact I pay tax on profits made on Orange Juice doesn't make it a currency.

What happens with the EuroPacific account is they sell the gold and turn into a currency and thereby allowing you to purchase with the card.

If the price of gold were to fall then you would be able to buy less. Goods and taxes are payed on fixed currency amounts not on fixed commodity amounts.

It simply isn't a currency, if it's a currency then so is Oil.

I said that the fact you have to pay CGT on it, means the revenue treat it as a commodity rather than money. i.e. they share the same view as you, that it is not money, just like orange juice or oil. That's why I said it was a disadvantage.

The simple point I am making is that gold is not an investment, it is a store of wealth. It is a better form of wealth than US Dollars in my opinion. Are there opportunities out there to invest your wealth? Of course there are, as my portfolio thread illustrates. Incidentily, you were quick to send some abuse my way at the start of the thread, but you haven't posted anything since then. Why is that?

OfflerCrocGod

turbobaby wrote: »

I said that the fact you have to pay CGT on it, means the revenue treat it as a commodity rather than money. i.e. they share the same view as you, that it is not money, just like orange juice or oil. That's why I said it was a disadvantage.

The simple point I am making is that gold is not an investment, it is a store of wealth. It is a better form of wealth than US Dollars in my opinion. Are there opportunities out there to invest your wealth? Of course there are, as my portfolio thread illustrates. Incidentily, you were quick to send some abuse my way at the start of the thread, but you haven't posted anything since then. Why is that?

Now I see our misunderstanding! You are totally correct when you call gold a store of wealth, that is exactly what it is, I would also be tempted to add oil to that category but it lacks the same history as gold. You are also correct when you say the US Dollar is a bad store of wealth, much like a laptop is a bad hammer for instance.

The problem isn't with the currency it's with the use you are trying to put it too! Currencies are means of exchange, they are for intermediation not for storing wealth or investment! When currencies become stores of wealth then you are in a terrible situation. A Liquidity Trap, which is not a place you want to be. The point of a currency is for people to have a means of exchanging different goods or investments for their labour. I think that clears that up?

As for your portfolio I only infrequently pop onto boards but I see you've done well, congratulations.

turbobaby

Yes, agreed, we can say that gold is not a currency as you can use it in the shops, and it's not an investment either as it doesn't pay a return.

Agreed, it would be less attractive store of wealth if there was a safe, real interest paying fiat currency to keep your wealth in.

Agreed, if everyone put their savings in gold we would be worse off as it doesn't actually create anything.

Ideally, I think we'd all love to have our local currencies as our store of wealth and invest in stocks which create tangiable goods or government/corporate bonds.

My beliefs tell me that paper currencies will lose value against commodities in the near future so that's why I have chosen to invest as I have done.

Good discussion!

stackerman

If gold is not a currency ( and I'm not suggesting it is) would someone care to explain why central banks buy and sell same

OfflerCrocGod

stackerman wrote: »

If gold is not a currency ( and I'm not suggesting it is) would someone care to explain why central banks buy and sell same

It's a store of wealth, central banks aren't requested to generate returns on their reserves just to keep them safe for when their currency needs defending. They aren't investors.

OfflerCrocGod

turbobaby wrote: »

Ideally, I think we'd all love to have our local currencies as our store of wealth

A currency should do one thing and do it well, trying to do two things at once (means of exchange and a store of wealth) leads to problems. Gold backed currencies were terrible due to that reason, people would hoard gold in time of stress as they wanted safe stores of wealth (investments were too dangerous at the time) and that would cause a shortage of currency triggering severe deflation. Having separate stores of wealth and means of exchange is far better for economies.

Look how volatile the gold standard was for industrial production and consumer prices, and how they would go into deflation in recessions.



This is what made recessions, Great Depressions.

John Kemp wrote:

What characterised all these prolonged deflations was the stubborn attempt to restore dolllar and sterling parities to gold after they had been suspended during wartime conditions at the pre-war parities. Britain tried to restore sterling to the pre-Napoleonic gold parity, the United States restored gold to the pre-Civil War parity, and both the United States and the United Kingdom restored gold convertibility at pre-1914 parities during the 1920s.
...
Policymakers were well aware resuming previous parities would involve a downward adjustment in wages and prices. But in each case, officials decided to attempt this compression because of the symbolic importance attached to resuming pre-war parities as an indication that pre-war “normality” could be restored.

Unemployment and a downturn in “trade” (as the business cycle was then known) was considered a price worth paying for the resumption of convertibility and a return to old certainties and sound money.

It was of course, total madness.

clairedavies

Merch wrote: »

I've read about it being a bubble, but how exactly does one go about buying gold?
This may sound stupid, do you buy it and hold it physically? or do you have a certificate of ownership?
I know a person that has told me they physically bought a very small quantity of gold, I cant see the value of buying in small quantity physically or not.
Surely there are transaction fees that will cover its purchase or sale? that will wipe out profits on a small scale?

More and more dealers are popping up if you want to buy gold I use www.yourgoldfund.com but there are many others out there. You can buy small or large amounts of gold with them and there are lots of options. You can hold it physically or they will hold it for you. I would be cautious of 'certificates' but each to their own.

Your Gold Fund have a savers account that is competitive for smaller purchases (relatively) but yes like anything the more you spend the more economical it gets. They smallest bars they sell are 1 ounce but they're the most competitively priced I can find.

clairedavies

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

Now I see our misunderstanding! You are totally correct when you call gold a store of wealth, that is exactly what it is, I would also be tempted to add oil to that category but it lacks the same history as gold. You are also correct when you say the US Dollar is a bad store of wealth, much like a laptop is a bad hammer for instance.

Unlike oil, gold does not disappear (unless it's stolen ).

turbobaby

You need to remember that the world superpower, America was built on the gold standard. Saving rates were high, major capital investments were undertaken, debts were lower, deflation was more common than inflation. Then they were taken off the gold standard giving politicans free reigns to buy votes. That will prove to be America's eventual downfall.

clairedavies

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

It simply isn't a currency, if it's a currency then so is Oil.

http://www.xe.com/

I see gold listed here. Not oil.

Merch

Merch wrote: »

I've read about it being a bubble, but how exactly does one go about buying gold?
This may sound stupid, do you buy it and hold it physically? or do you have a certificate of ownership?
I know a person that has told me they physically bought a very small quantity of gold, I cant see the value of buying in small quantity physically or not.
Surely there are transaction fees that will cover its purchase or sale? that will wipe out profits on a small scale?

Was my post too stupid to qualify a response?
I was not trolling

clairedavies

clairedavies wrote: »

More and more dealers are popping up if you want to buy gold I use www.yourgoldfund.com but there are many others out there. You can buy small or large amounts of gold with them and there are lots of options. You can hold it physically or they will hold it for you. I would be cautious of 'certificates' but each to their own.

Your Gold Fund have a savers account that is competitive for smaller purchases (relatively) but yes like anything the more you spend the more economical it gets. They smallest bars they sell are 1 ounce but they're the most competitively priced I can find.

I thoight I answered?!

Merch

clairedavies wrote: »

I thoight I answered?!

Sorry I'll have to read that, I wrote my message hours ago but just came back to the open window submitted it and re signed in.
I honestly think there are a lot of people that are curious/interested to know about this kind of thing, but have no background in anything close to it, or think it is in such a different arena to what they commonly know that they feel out of their depth to ask even basic questions. I know I do, but just not afraid to ask what appear on the surface to be obvious/silly questions.

clairedavies

Merch wrote: »

Sorry I'll have to read that, I wrote my message hours ago but just came back to the open window submitted it and re signed in.
I honestly think there are a lot of people that are curious/interested to know about this kind of thing, but have no background in anything close to it, or think it is in such a different arena to what they commonly know that they feel out of their depth to ask even basic questions. I know I do, but just not afraid to ask what appear on the surface to be obvious/silly questions.

I agree. www.yourgoldfund.com is extremely friendly to the new investor. It should help. Most sites just 'sell' gold in one form or another. This actually gives you a bit of an education...

OfflerCrocGod

clairedavies wrote: »

http://www.xe.com/

I see gold listed here. Not oil.

So is Palladium, they have all the major tradeable precious metals. That still does not make it a currency. You can easily store oil for decades if not far longer, that's what the SPR is all about. Oil has the added advantage of being useful.

OfflerCrocGod

turbobaby wrote: »

You need to remember that the world superpower, America was built on the gold standard. Saving rates were high, major capital investments were undertaken, debts were lower, deflation was more common than inflation. Then they were taken off the gold standard giving politicans free reigns to buy votes. That will prove to be America's eventual downfall.

The gold standard had nothing to do with the US being a superpower. There is a raft of reasons for the US being a superpower having once been on a gold standard isn't one of them. I don't see any downfall of the US, all I see is the rest of the world catching up, which is a good thing as it means the whole world is becoming more prosperous.

stackerman

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

It's a store of wealth, central banks aren't requested to generate returns on their reserves just to keep them safe for when their currency needs defending. They aren't investors.

Correct, just wanted someone else to say it, seeing as I've been labeled a 'gambler' here before. Considering the turbulent times we are in, and the endless printing of fiat (which I can't see stopping any time soon) I think Gold and silver (more so) are a smart move IMHO. I personally think 10% is about right.

turbobaby

I get the impression that offercroc works in the financial services industry.

Perhaps the idea that someone could get consistant returns from something so simple as gold, rather than some complex derivative based ETF dreamed up by a money manager, might make him feel a bit useless.

SyntonFenix

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

It simply isn't a currency, if it's a currency then so is Oil.

Not true, its just these days it's very difficult to use it as a currency. Gold (and silver) coins have face values and are legal tender. The intrinsic value is substantially a lot more of course. A $50 1oz US Eagle of course is over $1700 at the moment due to the gold content.

Fiat currencies out there have to come to an end. On average fiat currencies have a life span of 40 years on average. We're due a change.

OfflerCrocGod

turbobaby wrote: »

I get the impression that offercroc works in the financial services industry.

Perhaps the idea that someone could get consistant returns from something so simple as gold, rather than some complex derivative based ETF dreamed up by a money manager, might make him feel a bit useless.

You don't use gold to get long term returns, you use it as a store of wealth. Have you not seen the graphs I've shown you that demonstrate that over the long term gold simply returns the rate of inflation plus about ~1%? If you think it's so awesome why haven't you liquidated your entire portfolio and just bought gold?

I agree the financial industry is mostly worthless and I would be happy if it were to wash away. I tend to stay away from complex I dislike it.

OfflerCrocGod

SyntonFenix wrote: »

Not true, its just these days it's very difficult to use it as a currency. Gold (and silver) coins have face values and are legal tender. The intrinsic value is substantially a lot more of course. A $50 1oz US Eagle of course is over $1700 at the moment due to the gold content.

Fiat currencies out there have to come to an end. On average fiat currencies have a life span of 40 years on average. We're due a change.

Legal tender created by the US Mint is legal tender, create your own coins and you'll end up in federal prison faster then you can blink. Regardless of what material you use to create the coins.

turbobaby

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

If you think it's so awesome why haven't you liquidated your entire portfolio and just bought gold?

Because in my world everything is no black and white. I hold silver and a bit of gold as it's better form of liquid money than paper currency and has no third party risk.

I buy specific shares as I feel they will return multiples of my initial investment.

SyntonFenix

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

Legal tender created by the US Mint is legal tender, create your own coins and you'll end up in federal prison faster then you can blink. Regardless of what material you use to create the coins.

Who said anything about creating gold coins? I was referring to your previous statement, saying that gold isn't a currency. I'm saying you're wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagle

OfflerCrocGod

SyntonFenix wrote: »

Who said anything about creating gold coins? I was referring to your previous statement, saying that gold isn't a currency. I'm saying you're wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagle

Gold on it's own isn't a currency, if the US minted $50 coins from copper they would be currency but copper on it's own isn't. By your logic zinc is a currency as coins are made with it. Try going into a store with a lump of zinc and buying goods with it. Then try it with US minted zinc coins. Different results, one is a currency the other isn't.

SyntonFenix

How gold was chosen to be money/currency for thousands of years: http://www.slate.com/articles/video/slate_v/2011/11/why_gold_backs_global_currencies_and_not_an_element_like_argon.html

So much for your Zinc example.

Other links regarding using gold as payment:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17203132

http://rt.com/news/iran-india-gold-oil-543/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_clause

OfflerCrocGod

Zinc is used in coins, that does not make zinc a currency.

SyntonFenix

Thanks for stating the bleedin obvious. My original point being that you are saying gold isn't a currency. You haven't backed up any of your statements, let me try again to back up mine.

"Utah became the first state in the country this month to legalize gold and silver coins as currency".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/22/utah-gold-standard-silver_n_865333.html

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/utah-house-approves-gold-and-silver-as-currency-bill.php

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/04/utah-house-passes-recognizing-gold-silver-legal-tender/

OfflerCrocGod

The idea is simple: Store your gold and silver coins in a vault, and Franco issues a debit-like card to make purchases backed by your holdings.

Someone has already mentioned this scheme, the shops want cash not gold and that is in fact what you are giving them.

At the moment, Franco's idea would generally be the only practical use of the law in Utah, given the legislation doesn't require merchants to accept the coins, either at face value – $50 for a 1-ounce gold coin – or market value, currently almost $1,500 per ounce. And no one expects people will be walking around town with pockets full of gold and silver.

This is the same as I've already said before, legal tender is what the government says it is and it is worth exactly what the government says it's worth. It doesn't matter what they mint the coins with, if they mint $50 coins made of zinc that cost 0.05c the coin is worth $50 if they mint one out of gold for $50 worth $1,500 as a legal currency is only worth $50. Legal tender made out of gold is currency but it's not due to being gold, it's due to being legally recognised currency.

consultan

Warren Buffet forgot to mention that Central Banks are the biggest net buyers and holders of Gold, not for industrial or decorative use!!!!

Roonbox

Gold is far from a bubble, but I wouldn't buy it today, you will certainly have a better chance to get some gold at a better price in the coming year...

Also, for a long term investment, on a percentage basis, silver will outperform gold.

Liam.

kermit_the_dog

Roonbox wrote: »

Gold is far from a bubble, but I wouldn't buy it today, you will certainly have a better chance to get some gold at a better price in the coming year...

Also, for a long term investment, on a percentage basis, silver will outperform gold.

Liam.

what makes you say that , silver will outperform gold long term ?

Roonbox

kermit_the_dog wrote: »

what makes you say that , silver will outperform gold long term ?

Silver always performs better than gold in Bull markets, the historical ratio between silver and gold is 16-1, that gives silver a lot more upside potential.


Liam.

kermit_the_dog

Roonbox wrote: »

Silver always performs better than gold in Bull markets, the historical ratio between silver and gold is 16-1, that gives silver a lot more upside potential.


Liam.

silver is down 24 % from where it was this day in may 2011

stevedublin

kermit_the_dog wrote: »

silver is down 24 % from where it was this day in may 2011

silver is more volatile, higher highs and lower lows.

Roonbox

kermit_the_dog wrote: »

silver is down 24 % from where it was this day in may 2011

It has been up 11 years running and is overdue a correction, that will be a good entry point


edit - that doesn't include 2008, that was the last entry point

consultan

not for shaky hands and not for inexperienced traders though!!!