Transport 21 is finally officially dead

L1011

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its too late now anyway, but with the same mileage as we now have, we could have built a more efficient, strategic network which connected not only Dublin, but ALL cities to eachother.=

Maps please.

Its not possible.

Remember to include at the very least DC bypasses of Dunshauglin and Navan, too. And reduce your mileage for the higher cost of D3/D4 on core sections.

markpb

MYOB wrote: »

Maps please. Its not possible.

Motorways should connect cities, nothing else. Why was the N2 built to motorway standard, why was the M3 built at all? What cities exist along those routes? They were built to pander to the sprawl and solve a short term problem with a long term solution.

D'Peoples Voice

markpb wrote: »

They were built to pander to the sprawl and solve a short term problem with a long term solution.

ssssshhh, you'll have people talking about having the national children's hospital for the next 100 odd years on the edge of the M50 because there is no transport links to temple street in the short-term.

Amtmann

MYOB wrote: »

Maps please.

Its not possible.

Remember to include at the very least DC bypasses of Dunshauglin and Navan, too. And reduce your mileage for the higher cost of D3/D4 on core sections.

There was this proposal a few years ago:

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Why do I need three different ways to get from Cork to Dublin? Surely one is enough?

If you were to start from scratch, for the same money (or possibly less), this could have been built:

Aard

In Ireland, motorways are just diverted National roads. It's not like most other places where you can plough them through wherever and slap a new 'M' number on them. That's why we have M2 and M3. It's why the Limerick bypass is M7 and N18. The biggest deviation was the M6 past Loughrea.

DWCommuter

I love the inter urbans, but YES it could have been done more efficiently and had a better spread of spending to upgrade more roads. The shadowing of N routes baffled me. These motorways are empty most of the time.

As for T21, I sat in Dublin Castle 6 years ago and knew that those in attendance were being fed copious amounts of bull****. For me, the sad part was the acceptance. Recession has nothing to do with its demise. T21 was the greatest con trick of all time.

Irish transport planning is way beyond comprehension and is more akin to the Twilight Zone that anything else.

murphaph

We must also remember that Ireland largely missed out on the gradual upgrading/bypassing of trunk roads to (up to D2AP etc.) that happened in the UK BEFORE they even started building motorways. Our motorways are not just intercity links in reality, they are in many instances the first bypass of a town. Therefore the notion that we could have saved x amount by ignoring the pre-existing N road network and building something purely designed to link the main cities, totally ignores the fact that these towns like Port Laoise, Athlone etc. would have all required bypasses (albeit not D2M standard ones) to be built in addition to the "offline" motorways.

When the interurbans are fully complete (they aren't yet of course) you'll have multiple routes from say Cork, Shannon (even Limerick) or Waterford to Dublin. A major incident on the M8 would not cripple the network, there would be enough redundancy in it to allow traffic to head via the N25/N9 or N25/N30/N11 to reach Dublin. This is how the Germans do it-they build (typically) D2 motorway but build a denser network of it. The UK in comparison has a few key routes that just get widened and an incident on one of them can bring the house down.

We actually had the means to deliver these roads AND DART Underground AND Metro North. We just didn't. We preferred to elect a government of tax cuts, social welfare and public sector pay increases and general cack-handedness, rather than one which would capitalise on our GENUINE export led boom of the 1990s.

L1011

Tremelo wrote: »

There was this proposal a few years ago:

How does that connect Waterford to Galway in any way efficiently? Or Galway to Belfast

The route mileage we've built could not have been reshaped to what DLR seems to think it could.

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

Our motorways are not just intercity links in reality, they are in many instances the first bypass of a town. Therefore the notion that we could have saved x amount by ignoring the pre-existing N road network and building something purely designed to link the main cities, totally ignores the fact that these towns like Port Laoise, Athlone etc. would have all required bypasses (albeit not D2M standard ones) to be built in addition to the "offline" motorways.

Unlike say France or Germany. They use motorways to link cities, and their small towns like Portlaoise get modest s2 bypasses if needs be.

murphaph wrote: »

When the interurbans are fully complete (they aren't yet of course) you'll have multiple routes from say Cork, Shannon (even Limerick) or Waterford to Dublin. A major incident on the M8 would not cripple the network, there would be enough redundancy in it to allow traffic to head via the N25/N9 or N25/N30/N11 to reach Dublin. This is how the Germans do it-they build (typically) D2 motorway but build a denser network of it. The UK in comparison has a few key routes that just get widened and an incident on one of them can bring the house down.

Yeah.."when". Redundancy isn't so important that we needed to pour all our resorces into the huge network it requires, as we did, and still are. They have to be maintained too!

murphaph wrote: »

We actually had the means to deliver these roads AND DART Underground AND Metro North. We just didn't. We preferred to elect a government of tax cuts, social welfare and public sector pay increases and general cack-handedness, rather than one which would capitalise on our GENUINE export led boom of the 1990s.

What's this "we" business? Seriously though, I agree with that analysis.

I think that, despite MYOB's insisting, we could have built a smarter network as I've said above, which would've freed up resources for the Underground lines.

However, I guess it just wasn't politically possible with FF in power, and their god awful decentralisation mantra, and their large midland support base. Dublin based multi billion euro projects just weren't popular, even if they were the best thing for the country. Lesson? Don't let culchies run the country!

In summing up, Ireland doesn't have an amazing motorway network - Dublin and the midlands do. Cork, Limerick, Galway & Waterford missed out and trade between them will remain stifled for many more years. Don't hold yer breath for the M20 or the M18. Ireland will remain a one-city state.

Amtmann

MYOB wrote: »

How does that connect Waterford to Galway in any way efficiently? Or Galway to Belfast

The route mileage we've built could not have been reshaped to what DLR seems to think it could.

It doesn't. You'd still need a Type 2 DC between Waterford and Limerick. But it might have been a good alternative to the present motorway network.

Pete_Cavan

D.L.R. wrote: »

However, I guess it just wasn't politically possible with FF in power, and their god awful decentralisation mantra, and their large midland support base. Dublin based multi billion euro projects just weren't popular, even if they were the best thing for the country. Lesson? Don't let culchies run the country!

Thank God we had a good honest Dublin man in Bertie at the helm to capitalise on the greatest period of economic growth in our countries history and reject pandering to popular opinion in order to steer us towards a sustainable future.

DWCommuter

Tremelo wrote: »

There was this proposal a few years ago:

That proposal is a poor representation. I have seen proposals that merged routes, served major population centres and cost a lot less. If I'm not mistaken, James Nix a transport consultant, provided maps. If I can dig them out, I'll post them.

DWCommuter

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Thank God we had a good honest Dublin man in Bertie at the helm to capitalise on the greatest period of economic growth in our countries history and reject pandering to popular opinion in order to steer us towards a sustainable future.

I'm waiting for the smiley!

D.L.R.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Thank God we had a good honest Dublin man in Bertie at the helm to capitalise on the greatest period of economic growth in our countries history and reject pandering to popular opinion in order to steer us towards a sustainable future.

FF is a culchie organisation, regardless of the poster boy.

Aidan1

This has been hacked out here ad nauseum before - Murpaph is entirely correct. 'Radical' redesigns like that proposed by Mr Nix often entirely fail to take account of existing population geographies, the distribution of economic activity, and thus transport patterns. Both Mr Nix's proposals and Lennoxschips proposal almost entirely ignore the fact that there are substantial numbers of people in towns in Ireland that did not have adequate transport links to Dublin/Cork/Limerick, and that the provision of these is as much a function of the motorway network as it is to provide a direct Dublin 'to the provinces' link.

That said, there are parts of the network that should have been built differently, and were planned as such, but which were overruled by political desires. For example, the M9 was not intended to be built as such, but it got both pushed up the wish list and accelerated ahead of the M7 thanks to a certain Mr Cullen. Had the decision to bring the Motorway to Waterford been taken earlier in the political process, then there was a compelling case for not building the M8 on it's current route, but to have it share route with the M9 as far as Kilkenny, and diverge there, heading to Callan/Cahir and on south on the present route. Similarly, the M3 is very difficult to justify.

Some of the rationale behind Mr Nix's suggestions seem to have stemmed from a desire to limit the use of motorways as avenues for the spread of population outside cities. Obviously, in a sane world, that's the function of the planning authorities; however the fact that Cavan and Laois have seen the highest increases in population in the last intercensal would suggest that he had a point. Which is very annoying.

Iwannahurl

Was there ever any evaluation of Transport 21 along the way? Or is there one in the pipeline?

Aard

Are interchanges on motorways particularly expensive to build and maintain? I see an awful lot more of them on Irish motorways than, say, on French ones. For example, Cashel has three (yes, 3!) exits, while if it had been France, there'd probably be just one trumpet linking to a distributor road, if even that. Also the whole Thurles north/south thing. But if they're not too expensive, then I guess it's not such a big deal.

Pete_Cavan

Aard wrote: »

Are interchanges on motorways particularly expensive to build and maintain? I see an awful lot more of them on Irish motorways than, say, on French ones. For example, Cashel has three (yes, 3!) exits, while if it had been France, there'd probably be just one trumpet linking to a distributor road, if even that. Also the whole Thurles north/south thing. But if they're not too expensive, then I guess it's not such a big deal.

GSJs are extremely expensive to build. Even the fairly standard Dumbbell, Trumpet or Roundabout interchanges usually found on Irish motorways involve extensive earthworks on one or both sides of the motorway and at least one bridge structure. However, in many cases much of the earthworks and bridge may have been necessary anyway in order to accommodate existing R/L roads which must pass over the motorway.

Looking at Cashel on the map, the three junctions all serve regional roads (perhaps some are the original N road having been detruncked?) so unless you could turn some of those roads into cul de sacs most of the expense was unavoidable. The north Thurles junction with the N75 seems to be a cul de sac so perhaps money could have been saved on a GSJ there.

L1011

Cashel didn't originally have three, it had one and a half; upgraded to two and a half when the motorway was extended and the half later made full by Topaz under their own funding.

Both ends of it, the junction is with the line of the former N8 (N74 at the south end).

Aaron1

MYOB wrote: »

The route mileage we've built could not have been reshaped to what DLR seems to think it could.

Instead of the M6/7/8/9 you could have done this with roughly the same milage.

http://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=204944746234790398976.0004a71bb714fbc658e1d&msa=0&ll=52.200874,-8.239746&spn=2.868654,9.854736

veryangryman

Aaron1 wrote: »

Instead of the M6/7/8/9 you could have done this with roughly the same milage.

http://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=204944746234790398976.0004a71bb714fbc658e1d&msa=0&ll=52.200874,-8.239746&spn=2.868654,9.854736

I dont mean to sound patronising, but whats the point here?

Same mileage, same cost but bypassing less large towns.

Yes the Motorways are there to primarily serve the cities, but if its going to cost the same, you may as well give congested towns a bit of traffic relief

L1011

Aaron1 wrote: »

Instead of the M6/7/8/9 you could have done this with roughly the same milage.

http://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=204944746234790398976.0004a71bb714fbc658e1d&msa=0&ll=52.200874,-8.239746&spn=2.868654,9.854736

You're still going to be short mileage when you build things such as the Limerick SRR (which would be needed irregardless) and take in to account that a huge section of the M7 predated the MIUs so you can't be "reusing" it.

Sponge Bob

In 1997 the M4 and M7 existed in part and building on what you already had in 1997 you could have done something like this at the same cost more or less.

Someone else did this map before around here and essentially there are two routes out of each of Galway Waterford Cork and Limerick to Dublin to fulfil gridding criteria for motorways.

Pink would have been roads not built in 1997, there was no motorway west of Kilcock or Kildare town at that time.

veryangryman

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In 1997 the M4 and M7 existed in part and building on what you already had in 1997 you could have done something like this at the same cost more or less.

Someone else did this map before around here and essentially there are two routes out of each of Galway Waterford Cork and Limerick to Dublin to fulfil gridding criteria for motorways.

Pink would have been roads not built in 1997, there was no motorway west of Kilcock or Kildare town at that time.

Route to Cork is a bit on the long side though. Cheaper yes but we are talking about the country's 2 largest cities

Sponge Bob

veryangryman wrote: »

Route to Cork is a bit on the long side though. Cheaper yes but we are talking about the country's 2 largest cities

We could have followed the N78 ...the original Dublin - Cork road called the T6 with a spur from Clonmel/Kilkenny (ish) to Waterford then

Or we could have done this, 2 x MW routes out of everywhere to Dublin and 1 x MW to nearest City from every city ( inc 2 x MW from Limerick Cork...which are our second and third cities.

Aidan1

Another problem with your first route Spongebob is the topography (even assuming you'd use roughly the existing line of the N25 from Youghal heading west) - it would make building motorway very expensive due to the civils costs.

Second one is much better obviously, but I'm really not sure of the need for those trangular sections around Waterford, and Cork/Limerick (is there really a need for TWO motorway routes from Cork-Limerick, or to have the N24 replaced by a full motorway?).

Ultimately, if all goes well, it may be possible to eventually replace the N24 and the sections of the N25 east of Midleton with 2+2 - in fact, I strongly suspect that if design decisions were taken now, the N20 would be 2+2 also. That said, there is also a case for merely building a spur from the M8 at Mitchelstown to serve Limerick (via a route to the east of Kilmallock). To ge crazy with the crayons for a second, it wouldn't be a huge leap to suggest 2+2 from Waterford to (say) Cahir - two proper junctions at Cahir and Mitchesltown,and there's your N24 and N20 issues dealt with.

Wild Bill

Am I the only one wondering about the point of all this "could have" done it this way or that?

Especially as none of the suggestions are any better than what we have and many of the suggestions are daft.

The motorway network was a great achievement; one of the few we got from the boom years.

Ironically, we wasted the first half (at least) of the boom on exactly the sort of pointless naval gazing we have right here - we could have had the motorways and much more rail transport infrastructure as well if we hadn't facilitated every NIMBY and Greenie and made a huge controversy out of every damn thing we built or tried to build.

We were still bull****ting and waffling when the cash ran out.

That is what we should learn from; and cease drawing maps of what could have been - like spoiled children..... 'cos my favourite route/option wasn't chosen and now I'm thamping my lil foot. :mad:

Sponge Bob

My favourite Dublin Galway route was chosen Bill, don't care about the rest really

Its just that there was no need for 3 full motorways, M8 M9 and M11 in my opinion.

Having said that we may as well finish Arklow - Rathnew soon as.

FGR

One of the positive things arising from the existence of the M8,M9 and M11 projects is that so many towns now have a proper bypass alternative.

Shame they screwed it all up by tolling so many of them with Waterford and Fermoy being the worst IMO.

Although I have my doubts about it I'm hopeful that the Atlantic Corridor project between Letterkenny and Rosslare will still be considered in some way, shape or form in the new NDP.

Considering we can't change the decisions that have already been made regarding the roads that have already been built I feel that the Corridor in HQDC would make up for most of the gaping holes left by the current project.

With some serious consideration for linking Limerick and Waterford thrown in too, of course.

Niles

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Its just that there was no need for 3 full motorways, M8 M9 and M11 in my opinion.

I'm wouldn't classify the M11 as a "full motorway", what has been done is rather piecemeal, with significant gaps. Much of what has been done was badly needed, particularly the Ashford/Rathnew bypass - anyone who has traveled on the old N11 in these areas will vouch for this. Although with the exception of the Inch/Gorey bypass sections most of the N/M11 work was completed before the T21 plan came into being.