Question: LGBT how come Transgender people are lumped in with gay/lesbian/bisexual

Animord

I am probably asking a question that has been asked a million times, but i can't find an answer.

Why are transexual people lumped in with gay/lesbian/Bi people - I mean, it seems to me to be a whole other kettle of fish.

Platinum2010

let the debate re-commence....

stephen_n

Animord wrote: »

I am probably asking a question that has been asked a million times, but i can't find an answer.

Why are transexual people lumped in with gay/lesbian/Bi people - I mean, it seems to me to be a whole other kettle of fish. One is what you like to do in bed and the other is, well, just something else completely.

Confused in Cork...

I think you will find that reducing the identities of lesbian, gay and bisexual
People down to what they do in bed is at the very least a poor choice of words!

Meesared

*runs away from the impending ****storm*

Animord

stephen_n wrote: »

I think you will find that reducing the identities of lesbian, gay and bisexual
People down to what they do in bed is at the very least a poor choice of words!

I am sorry, I have obviously asked a wrong question, and I really don't want to offend anyone.

I will google again then!

I_am_LOST

Don't be sorry, OP. I think it's a perfectly valid question and I never understood why Transgender is lumped in with Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual. It makes no sense to me.

LGB is sexual orientation. T is something completely different all together.

Platinum2010

I_am_LOST wrote: »

Don't be sorry, OP. I think it's a perfectly valid question and I never understood why Transgender is lumped in with Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual. It makes no sense to me.

LGB is sexual orientation. T is something completely different all together.

I think you'll find I said the same thing in another thread also

Aishae

the answer in a nutshell is that we have similar problems. similar prejudices from the public at large, similar issues with family and friends. coming out as trans or gay is different but again - similar. and it depends on the individual but trans folk have sexuality ponderings too. a minority with a big enough similarity

*coming from the L side of it myself*

wonderfulname

OP, person who is lost, the reason people appear to be cowering in fear is not due to the validity/invalidity of the question, its because this question has lead to many a disastrous thread in the past, you'll even find a tetchy few posts surrounding it on this very page, I'll try pinpoint them for you.

Chuchoter

Go learn about the history of gay rights. We have very interlinked histories and face similar prejudices and experiences. It was the drag queens that led the stonewall riots.

Animord

stephen_n wrote: »

I think you will find that reducing the identities of lesbian, gay and bisexual
People down to what they do in bed is at the very least a poor choice of words!

I am not identifying people by what they want to do in bed, I think everyone is just a person - I don't care what they want to do in their beds (or elsewhere) which is probably why I don't undersand.

Freiheit

Because prejudice against gay people isn't about who they sleep with, it's about violating gender expectations.

Animord

wonderfulname wrote: »

OP, person who is lost, the reason people appear to be cowering in fear is not due to the validity/invalidity of the question, its because this question has lead to many a disastrous thread in the past, you'll even find a tetchy few posts surrounding it on this very page, I'll try pinpoint them for you.

Ok, thanks

As I said, no offense to anyone meant at all. I am on the side of everyone just being happy.

Chuchoter

Just this topic has a habit of causing war every time it comes up :P

Rev Hellfire

/me sits back and gets the popcorn.

Platinum2010

Animord wrote: »

Ok, thanks

As I said, no offense to anyone meant at all. I am on the side of everyone just being happy.

This was a conversation that was going on in another thread but it was meant to be started up again . You've stated you don't want to cause offence .however if you change the way you phrased things I'd be more than willing as would a few others to explain things , however I think that your choice of words were not best for such a sensitive subject

Animord

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

/me sits back and gets the popcorn.

/me dies a little bit and goes to bed

wonderfulname

Animord, I believe from the tone of your OP that you genuinely just want to know, and there is nothing wrong with a bit of curiosity, you would only have done a wrong thing had you been asking 'why are THEY in with US? making me look bad grumblegrumbehatefilledbile', but you weren't, so all is good.

There are some answers from here, there are a lot more somewhere but this forum has no search function so I can't find them for you.

apache

Platinum2010 wrote: »

This was a conversation that was going on in another thread but it was meant to be started up again . You've stated you don't want to cause offence .however if you change the way you phrased things I'd be more than willing as would a few others to explain things , however I think that your choice of words were not best for such a sensitive subject

plenty of people here have caused offence without meaning it. people should be able to ask questions.

Platinum2010

Noone denies him the right to ask questions but appropriate use of the English language is necessary to ensure that no one is hurt or if someone going to get hurt you don't make the blow twice as bad for them

apache

Platinum2010 wrote: »

Noone denies him the right to ask questions but appropriate use of the English language is necessary to ensure that no one is hurt or if someone going to get hurt you don't make the blow twice as bad for them

that is quite ironic coming from you. have you a short memory?

Meesared

apache wrote: »

that is quite ironic coming from you. have you a short memory?

Now there was no call for that

Platinum2010

apache wrote: »

that is quite ironic coming from you. have you a short memory?

Oooo wtf is that supposed to mean

stephen_n

Animord wrote: »

I am not identifying people by what they want to do in bed, I think everyone is just a person - I don't care what they want to do in their beds (or elsewhere) which is probably why I don't undersand.

Firstly I don't identify as anything as I believe sexuality is just a part of peoples makeup and not the defining issue! However you described the LGB part of the equation by "what they like to do in bed" which suggests a possible reason for your lack of understanding. Is being heterosexual purely a case of sleeping with the opposite sex or is there more too it than that? Being lesbian, gay or bisexual does bring specific issues that promote commonality even in there diversity! If it was defined by who we choose to sleep with then why would gay men have anything in common with lesbians as they would have far more in common with straight women and vice versa!

wonderfulname

Children! Bad vibes in the potentially explosive thread make wonderfulname sad... and more likely to get blown up...

OMG Its EoinD

I think its societies way of grouping the people who don't go against the flow. I wouldn't take it to heart.

Platinum2010

wonderfulname wrote: »

Children! Bad vibes in the potentially explosive thread make wonderfulname sad... and more likely to get blown up...

Sorry but I wont be spoken down to by someone who is a keyboard gangster who wouldn't have the balls to say something to my face

Links234

I gotta giggle, because I think the way people are all like "omg, popcorn, explosions! Michael Bay movie!", this kinda becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

apache

Platinum2010 wrote: »

Sorry but I wont be spoken down to by someone who is a keyboard gangster who wouldn't have the balls to say something to my face

what now?
i was drawing similarities on how your comments on the same issue went downhill. i gave you leeway as i would the op.
i think it is a fair and valid point!

keyboard gangster
thats brilliant!

Platinum2010

Actually it was not my comments that got the thread closed

apache

i cannot post images

apache

Platinum2010 wrote: »

Actually it was not my comments that got the thread closed

i never said it was. i actually supported your questioning. it was a good debate.

edit - maybe supported was a wrong word - but definitely interested.

Annasopra

Platinum/Apache - Quit the narking at each other and take any issues you have with each other to PM - To the OP - This can be a sensitive issue for this forum. You have done nothing wrong in discussing this.

Platinum2010

OP - I am still learning that this subject is not as black and White as most others which Is why I feel you are in the right place because you get different ways of viewing the situation and some views from transgender people themselves

apache

i'm not being narky. just questioning.

so if i post a pic here it will not be appropriate? its a bit of a delayed reaction anyway. ok.

Annasopra

apache wrote: »

i'm not being narky. just questioning.

so if i post a pic here it will not be appropriate? its a bit of a delayed reaction anyway. ok.

Apache

Please reaquaint yourself with the forum charter and please note that if a moderator comes on and moderates then this should not be discussed on thread. As always if you have any problems send me a PM.

If you have a problem with any of the moderation techniques used, please feel free to take it up via PM, or you can report it on the Feedback board. We will not discuss it in any of the threads. If you feel that a particular post requires attention by a moderator, then feel free to report that post using the "report post" link visible underneath that post. If the decision to report is upheld action will be taken.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the picture?

apache

i will acquaint myself with that. i did not realise that. i know now.

Animord

Again, I apologise for any offense caused to anyone.

Possibly precisely because I don't define myself, or anyone else in terms of their sexuality, it never occured to me that it was an issue.

Just a bit of background, my best mate of 25 odd years is gay and it's a complete non issue. I knew him 'before' he was gay and I held his hand physically and metaphorically (!) while he came out (we shared a house together for years) - I suppose I have forgotten the tears and trauma of it all.

Anyway sorry again, and thanks to those who answered my question.

Kanoe

If I'm not mistaken there was a crusade some time ago to have the T removed from this forum which achieved it's goal, for a short time.

anyway..once again... from here

Sexual Identity and Gender Identity are similar in some ways and very different in others. Both refer to how one thinks of a person. The existence and perpetuation of gender and sexual identities is based in the historic and continuing oppression (systematic mistreatment condoned by society as a whole) of people do not conform to certain aspects of society's gender roles. Gender roles refer to the clothing, behaviors, thoughts, feelings, relationships, etc., that are considered appropriate or inappropriate for members of each sex.

However, sex, gender identity, and sexual identity refer to different aspects of oneself. Therefore, one may be any combination of sex (male/female), gender (masculine/feminine), and sexual identity (straight, bisexual, lesbian/gay.) In recent history, people oppressed on the basis of different sexual identities (bisexuals, lesbians, gay men) and people oppressed on the basis of gender identity have formed communities which are partly separate and partly overlapping with one another. Because of this historic separation, someone who is a member of one of these communities does not necessarily understand and prioritize the issues of others of these communities. One who belongs to more than one of these communities may feel welcome in both, but usually neither addresses all one's needs or the way that one's needs from different communities overlap or interact.

Gender identity refers to how one thinks of one's own gender: whether one thinks of oneself as a man (masculine) or as a woman (feminine.) Society prescribes arbitrary rules or gender roles (how one is supposed to and not supposed to dress, act, think, feel, relate to others, think of oneself, etc.) based on one's sex (whether one has a vagina or a penis.) These gender roles are called feminine and masculine. Anyone who does not abide by these arbitrary rules may be targeted for mistreatment ranging from not being included in people's circle of friends, through the cold shoulder, snide comments, verbal harrassment, assault, rape, and murder based on one's (perceived) gender identity.

Sexual identity refers to how one thinks of oneself in terms of whom one is sexually and romantically attracted to, specifically whether one is attracted to members of the same gender as one's own or the other gender than one's own. Society prescribes arbitrary rules that one should be sexually and romantically attracted to members of the other gender than one's own, and should not be attracted to members of the same gender as one's own. Anyone who does not abide by these arbitrary rules may be targeted for mistreatment ranging from not being included in people's circle of friends, through the cold shoulder, snide comments, verbal harrassment, assault, rape, and murder based on one's (perceived) sexual identity. (See homophobia and biphobia.) When one's sex and one's gender identity are different, one may base one's sexual identity on either one. Alternatively, one may have two sexual identities, one as a man and one as a woman.

These are terms often used within the sexual identity and gender identity communities. Self-identification terms are often spelled with initial caps (e.g. Queer, Bisexual) to emphasize that they refer to how one think of oneself, rather than how someone else labels one. (For instance, researchers often classify bisexual-identified women and men as lesbians and gay men and transvestites as transsexuals, obscuring important distinctions.)

df1985

I wasnt around for the previous storms shall we say but I have to agree with the OP. As a gay guy I dont understand it either.

I need to make it 100% clear I dont want to offend anyone or hurt anyones feelings (id say its 100 times harder to come out as trans), but questioning your sexuality and questioning your gender are two completely different things in my (admitedly perhaps uninformed) opinion.

Platinum2010

df1985 wrote: »

but questioning your sexuality and questioning your gender are two completely different things in my (admitedly perhaps uninformed) opinion.

I agree

Kanoe

df1985 wrote: »

I wasnt around for the previous storms shall we say but I have to agree with the OP. As a gay guy I dont understand it either.

I need to make it 100% clear I dont want to offend anyone or hurt anyones feelings (id say its 100 times harder to come out as trans), but questioning your sexuality and questioning your gender are two completely different things in my (admitedly perhaps uninformed) opinion.

gender identity and sexual identity are very often bound together, not least by how a person may be perceived in society but even as a matter of self expression. We share a lot of common ground especially in terms of what might be regarded as non conformist roles.

df1985

Kanoe wrote: »

gender identity and sexual identity are very often bound together, not least by how a person may be perceived in society but even as a matter of self expression. We share a lot of common ground especially in terms of what might be regarded as non conformist roles.

why though? thats not me being smart, i genuinely dont see the reasoning behind it. loads of groups face prejudices or whatever, that doesnt mean I have anything in common with them just because im gay and face some too.

deirdre_dub

Platinum2010 wrote: »

df1985 wrote: »

questioning your sexuality and questioning your gender are two completely different things in my (admitedly perhaps uninformed) opinion.

I agree

I also agree - your opinion is definitely uninformed.

I would have thought it would be incredibly obvious why questioning your sexuality and questioning your gender are related. If I transition from male to female, and I'm interested in women, does that mean that I am straight or lesbian or bisexual or what?

In my case, however, hand-in-hand with my realisation that I'm female was a realisation that I was actually far more interested in men than I thought! And that is another way in which questioning your gender automatically leads to a questioning of sexual orientation.

Kanoe

df1985 wrote: »

why though? thats not me being smart, i genuinely dont see the reasoning behind it. loads of groups face prejudices or whatever, that doesnt mean I have anything in common with them just because im gay and face some too.

I was about to respond with what Deirdre just said, how can you not see how related they are?

df1985

Take away the gender transition though, would you still be having issues with your sexuality regardless?

Meesared

Thats a massive hypothetical! I dont see how anyone could give an answer to that

Kanoe

df1985 wrote: »

Take away the gender transition though, would you still be having issues with your sexuality regardless?

The transition? If you are not in alignment with your recognised gender regardless of your sexuality do you think you might have difficulty adapting to or expressing that in a relationship?

Platinum2010

Kanoe wrote: »

I was about to respond with what Deirdre just said, how can you not see how related they are?

To me its like almost like saying
"I'm not who you think I am - I'm not Mark (just using an example)
Thats one issue. it was unfortunate you were born in the wrong body and I personally cannot beging to understand how frustrating that must be for you daily .

However its not the same as saying I find myself sexually attracted to so and so

IMO anyway

Meesared

Platinum2010 wrote: »

To me its like almost like saying
"I'm not who you think I am - I'm not Mark (just using an example)
Thats one issue. it was unfortunate you were born in the wrong body and I personally cannot beging to understand how frustrating that must be for you daily .

However its not the same as saying I find myself sexually attracted to so and so

IMO anyway

But the goals of both groups are the same regardless of how you see both of them.

df1985

Im trying to get my head around it but im confusing myself even more I think.I bear no malice in it, i just dont fully understand it.

My point is Im a man who is attracted to other men. I have never once questioned the fact I am a man.

So saying that, what do I have in common with a man who identifies as a woman regardless of who they are attracted to?