"Blasphemous" Exhibition in UCC

robindch

Gird your loins, ladies and gentlemen, lock up your children and bolt your front doors! UCC's first "blasphemous" exhibition has opened today!

http://www.corkstudentnews.com/news/controversial-exhibit-to-open-in-ucc-tomorrow-21261



John Buttimer, the local FG TD, commented thusly:

Bummiter wrote:

If UCC considers itself an inclusive place for study and research then it must ensure that all beliefs are respected. It should not permit any one set of beliefs to be ridiculed, [...] UCC should be at the forefront of promoting religious tolerance in a pluralist society. Those in charge of UCC should reconsider whether or not it is appropriate to permit this exhibition to take place on its campus without affording others the opportunity to present an alternative and balanced point of view.

Alternative point of view? How many chapels are on UCC's campus?

Anyhow, outraged catholics have blogged here:

http://johnbarrysblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/irelanducc-blasphemous-exhibit-our-lady.html
http://www.americaneedsfatima.org/Anti-Blasphemy-Protest-Central/america-needs-fatima-opposes-blasphemous-our-lady-exhibit-in-ireland.html
http://crookedhalocatholicblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/our-lady-insulted-degraded-again-e.html
(etc, etc)

sensibleken

damn mary's a bit of fine stuff

beglopty

saw it on this blog. doubt its an outraged catholic though!
http://sathere.blogspot.com/

Nodin

It has to be said that as offensive images go, its a bit lacking in the 'offensive' department for 2011. Nice woman, bedecked in flowers, wee pic of a female angel with bosoms......there's not even a langer around the shop.

robindch

Whatever about langers, here's the Bishop of Cork weighing into the debate:

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/cork-bishop-criticises-offensive-mary-image-158770.html

Delirium

robindch wrote: »

Whatever about langers, here's the Bishop of Cork weighing into the debate:

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/cork-bishop-criticises-offensive-mary-image-158770.html

from the article:

Most Reverend Dr John Buckley said: "Respect for Mary, the mother of God, is bred in the bones of Irish people and entwined in their lives.

crap! I'm not Irish anymore.:rolleyes:

Byron85

I don't know if any of you have been following this but it has been in some newspapers over the last few days.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bishop-claims-image-of-virgin-is-unacceptable-2803478.html

A BISHOP yesterday described an art exhibition as "offensive and unacceptable" over its depiction of the Virgin Mary.

The UCC exhibit entitled 'Our Lady and Other Queer Santas' has sparked outrage with some Catholic groups.

The Bishop of Cork and Ross John Buckley yesterday said the exhibit goes beyond the bounds of pluralism and respect.

A local Fine Gael TD has also gotten in on the act, which personally I find despicable.

Myself and another member of UCC Atheist Society went up to the exhibition earlier today to see the "offending" image and it's quite small; maybe A3 size. There were no protestors there when we left however, the same person I was with phoned me about an hour later as he was passing through the campus to let me know that roughly 30 protestors had gathered along with a cleric of some sort, a bishop or priest.

As a result, we are organising a counter-protest on campus tomorrow from 2pm onwards. The protest is in order to highlight the issue of free speech and to highlight the issue of the blasphemy law. If anyone would like to join us then feel free. The link to the Facebook event is below.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=214546881917938

I'm also hoping to engage with some of the protestors. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Corkfeen

Entirely agree with you. The Bishop shot himself in the foot when he said.

"We have seen the negative consequences that result from a lack of respect for religious beliefs in many cultures. "

The main issue I had with the picture of Muhammad in Denmark was the fact that they couldn't show the image. No religion should have the right to dictate what is and isn't art and what we can and can't show. If it offends, big deal.

AhSureTisGrand

Just saw the picture. No wonder she was a virgin

Shenshen

Any excuse for them to get themselves in the papers in their favourite role - as victims.

In all fairness, it's nowhere near as provocative as some pictures that were painted in the 1920's...

the culture of deference

Bishop of Cork and Ross Dr John Buckley said


respect for religious beliefs must be central to modern society.


WTF


what planet are these muppets living on.

Zombrex

A BISHOP yesterday described an art exhibition as "offensive and unacceptable" over its depiction of the Virgin Mary.

I would guess that was the point.

Galvasean

Did anyone else look at the image and think, "That's it?"?

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote: »

Did anyone else look at the image and think, "That's it?"?

Get with the programme, this is clearly another example of how the modern secular world OPPRESSES Catholics.

Worse. Than. Hitler.

the culture of deference

Wicknight wrote: »

Get with the programme, this is clearly another example of how the modern secular world OPPRESSES Catholics.

Worse. Than. Hitler.

How dare 8% of us non delusional - non denominational upstarts have an opinion. If only they could (still) burn us.

Malari

I've a good mind to nip down to my local "holy mary" statue (what are they called again?) in the middle of the night and strap a cheapo Penney's bra and knickers on it for a laugh the sake of free artistic expression.

Seriously can't believe they are offended by this picture.

Edit: Grotto!

Blackhorse Slim

"We have seen the negative consequences that result from a lack of respect for religious beliefs in many cultures. "

Unfortunately we have also seen the negative consequences that result from over-respecting religious beliefs in our own culture.

Byron85

Just in the door from the protest. To say the Catholic protestors were hostile would be an understatement. They didn't talk to us but at us. They were also overheard talking among themselves that they should "get in front of us to block us".

However, two quotes stuck in my head. Firstly, when we arrived we had a small talk with them and the man who seemed to be the most outspoken. One of our party wished him the best of luck with the protest, as was his right in a free and democratic society, to which he responded "Well I don't wish you luck". How Christian of him.

The second quote was from a woman just as they were all leaving when she said, without a hint of irony, "A little knowledge goes to the head".

Zillah

The Bishop of Cork and Ross John Buckley yesterday said the exhibit goes beyond the bounds of pluralism and respect.

Typical. Free speech is absolutely fine unless you say something I don't like.

Galvasean

Byron85 wrote: »

Just in the door from the protest.

I can imagine what it was like

the culture of deference

Byron85 wrote: »

Just in the door from the protest. To say the Catholic protestors were hostile would be an understatement. They didn't talk to us but at us. They were also overheard talking among themselves that they should "get in front of us to block us".

However, two quotes stuck in my head. Firstly, when we arrived we had a small talk with them and the man who seemed to be the most outspoken. One of our party wished him the best of luck with the protest, as was his right in a free and democratic society, to which he responded "Well I don't wish you luck". How Christian of him.

The second quote was from a woman just as they were all leaving when she said, without a hint of irony, "A little knowledge goes to the head".

Does anyone else view this with disbelief. After everything that the church are responsible for. Are we heading for a situation where it is them against us as in the USA, and we are the new commies.

What is wrong with these people.

robindch

Byron85 wrote: »

One [...] he responded "Well I don't wish you luck". How Christian of him.

Well, in all fairness, I think he was performing pretty much to stereotype here.

Byron85

robindch wrote: »

Well, in all fairness, I think he was performing pretty much to stereotype here.

True but I was still flabbergasted at their zealotry. We we also had some fliers which explained why we were protesting. One of our group tried to give one of them to a woman in the other group when she noticed that we had a small picture of the image that's causing all the uproar on the flier, and proceeded to freak. She crumpled it up, threw it on the ground and started saying how dare we and so on. "What if that was a picture of your mother" is one argument that was put to us I believe.

robindch

Byron85 wrote: »

"What if that was a picture of your mother" is one argument that was put to us I believe.

"She's not".

Darn, was passing by Cork today and should have dropped by.

robindch

Here's Cardinal Brady getting to grips with social media and the Our Lady scare:

http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/readme/column-cardinal-rules-on-how-to-organise-a-social-media-protest/?utm_source=facebook

Galvasean

Byron85 wrote: »

True but I was still flabbergasted at their zealotry. We we also had some fliers which explained why we were protesting. One of our group tried to give one of them to a woman in the other group and when she noticed that we had a small picture of the image that's causing all the uproar on the flier, and proceeded to freak. She crumpled it up, threw it on the ground

Should have gotten her done for littering.

Galvasean

Hohohohoho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This made me laugh heartily:

On last Friday's Liveline, one of Ireland's most popular radio shows, presenter Joe Duffy was flooded with calls from irate Catholics mortified by this "blasphemous" artwork. One recounted the story of Our Lady of Guadeloupe and then told how "Microsoft and Nasa" had recently used a special microscope which had proved the miraculous nature of the image of Mary that had appeared on the poncho of Juan Diego.

Sure, when evidence eludes you just make something up out of the top of your head! :pac:

Source:
http://www.u.tv/News/Irelands-poisonous-blasphemy-debate/52c0ec50-284e-4a2a-a07b-ec8f747e66d3

Michael Nugent said this, "It was like discussing the rules of quidditch with people who believe Harry Potter was a documentary."

housetypeb

Quote -The Fine Gael politician called on the university authorities to reconsider their decision to allow the exhibition on its campus "without affording others the opportunity to present an alternative and balanced point of view -quote

Teach the controversy!!!

strobe

Is it too soon for me suggest we have a 'photoshop a sexy Mary day' in the vein of the 'draw Mohammad day' silliness?

ItsAWindUp

housetypeb wrote: »

Quote -The Fine Gael politician called on the university authorities to reconsider their decision to allow the exhibition on its campus "without affording others the opportunity to present an alternative and balanced point of view -quote

Teach the controversy!!!

Therein lies the problem.

Zillah

Microsoft and NASA.

Sarky

Galvasean wrote: »

I can imagine what it was like

Now if God Jesus and Satan had been portrayed as the Emprah, Sanguinius and Horus that I'd go to mass every day, no doubt. Alas, there are no giant stompy robots or continent-sized palaces in the Bible. The Cruxifiction story would have just zoomed along if there were Orks instead of Roman soldiers. "Oi! Why we got ta nail 'im to a plank on a 'ill miles away all fancy like? We can just kick im inna dangly bitz an' lop 'iz 'ead orf!"

randylonghorn

Corkfeen wrote: »

If it offends, big deal.

But if it offends people, don't they have the right to say so publicly / protest too?

Isn't that an ...

Byron85 wrote: »

... issue of free speech ...

too?


Just saying, like!

Personally, I don't have any problem with the exhibit.

Nodin

Galvasean wrote: »

Did anyone else look at the image and think, "That's it?"?

It's like even controversy has been hit with an austerity budget....

pH

randylonghorn wrote: »

But if it offends people, don't they have the right to say so publicly / protest too?

If it offends then they absolutely have the right to say so. However, they explicitly want it banned, which is a different thing altogether.

It's unlikely that the government will do anything, it's not as if someone painted a picture of Cowen and hung it in 2 galleries, which promoted immediate outrage from the powers that be, an apology from RTE, and the wiping of the offending news clip from the archive.

Zillah wrote:

Microsoft and NASA.

Yes, surprisingly it turns out that if you take a scan of a photograph, enlarge it massively and stare really hard then you can see faces in the mess.

If that doesn't work well for everyone, you can also try chopping away everything that doesn't look like a face, or indeed painting faces in the picture yourself.

http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html
http://www.holyhillcross.com/EYES%20OF%20OUR%20LADY%20NEW.html

philologos

Is that the only picture that drew the response from the RCC? If so I can't really see what the fuss is about.

Delirium

seems the gardai have confirmed that they are investigating if the exhibition meets the criteria for a case under the blasphemy law.

sorry i can't post text from the link, currently posting via phone.

http://catholiclawyersblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/23/garda-siochana-investigate-cork-university-over-blasphemous-image-of-our-lady/

Solair

Well I will never be able to understand how the Greens let that legislation through. Its one of the reasons I wouldn't vote for them again. I emailed several of them during the debate and their responses were very wishy washy.

The statement from that FG TD has certainly lost FG any potential votes from me in future elections!

If a blasphemy case is brought, we are instantly transported back to the 1950s interms of international opinion.

Its already getting international attention and making us look like a conservative basketcase like Greece, also famous for its blasphemy laws.

philologos

koth wrote: »

seems the gardai have confirmed that they are investigating if the exhibition meets the criteria for a case under the blasphemy law.

:rolleyes:

Yahew

the culture of deference wrote: »

How dare 8% of us non delusional - non denominational upstarts have an opinion. If only they could (still) burn us.

Who is the "us" that Catholics apparently burned? No inquisition ran in Celtic Catholic Ireland. You are not a descendent of atheists anyway. Your Catholic ancestors were however oppressed for being Catholic.

Has the leaving cert really being that dumbed down. What history is now taught? Do you even open a book? Have you any interest in the history of the Island you are on, or do you take Grayling's whig version of history seriously.

But if it offends people, don't they have the right to say so publicly / protest too?

Yes, so what happened here is not the blasphemy law being invoked, which I would oppose, and I think it should be removed. What happened here is that somebody took offence and dared protest. The modern "liberal" atheist cant be having different opinions.

Solair

Yahew wrote: »

Yes, so what happened here is not the blasphemy law being invoked, which I would oppose, and I think it should be removed. What happened here is that somebody took offence and dared protest. The modern "liberal" atheist cant be having different opinions.

The POLICE are investigating an art exhibition on the grounds that it might be blasphemous. That doesn't happen in most modern democracies. It's more the kind of thing that goes on in theocracies like Iran.

I already have French, German and American friends/former colleagues asking questions about it as it has gotten some international media attention.

Not only is this a complete waste of Garda time, it's also dragging Ireland's reputation abroad (deservedly as we have the legislation on the books) through the mud.

Do people realise that modern blasphemy legislation is so unusual that I actually had French and US friends asking if it was ok to travel to Ireland as they were afraid that if they said something blasphemous they might get arrested.

It's a ridiculous bit of legislation and it does nothing except reaffirm a no-longer true, but widely held belief abroad that this is an island of right-wing religious nut jobs comparable to the US bible belt.

Seems we're not only comparable to Greece when it comes to economic mismanagement, we also prioritise the prosecution of blasphemy over doing sensible things like running the country properly!

Cartoonist faces Greek jail for blasphemy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/mar/23/austria.arts

Yahew

Solair wrote: »

The POLICE are investigating an art exhibition on the grounds that it might be blasphemous. That doesn't happen in most modern democracies. It's more the kind of thing that goes on in theocracies like Iran.

I already have French, German and American friends/former colleagues asking questions about it as it has gotten some international media attention.

Not only is this a complete waste of Garda time, it's also dragging Ireland's reputation abroad (deservedly as we have the legislation on the books) through the mud.

Do people realise that modern blasphemy legislation is so unusual that I actually had French and US friends asking if it was ok to travel to Ireland as they were afraid that if they said something blasphemous they might get arrested.

It's a ridiculous bit of legislation and it does nothing except reaffirm a no-longer true, but widely held belief abroad that this is an island of right-wing religious nut jobs comparable to the US bible belt.

This isn't what the thread is about - or not what it started on. It was a protest against a protest. I agree with the blasphemy law being absurd, however.

Solair

Yahew wrote: »

This isn't what the thread is about - or not what it started on. It was a protest against a protest. I agree with the blasphemy law being absurd, however.

It most certainly is what the thread is about and what the protest is about.

If it wasn't possible to be prosecuted for what someone might consider 'blasphemous', then a counter-protest and all this media attention would not be necessary.

If any group wants to be offended by anything, that's their right. The problem is that religious groups now have the full force of the law behind them and can now push to have charges brought.

I fully support anyone's freedom of speech on any issue, regardless of their view. However, this is not what the situation is in Ireland on issues like this.

The blasphemy law has most certainly been invoked if the Gardaí are investigating it.

They Gardaí do not investigate things when someone gets a bit offended by something in any other circumstances.

We also have a Government TD openly criticising an academic institution hosting an art exhibition on the grounds he feels it's blasphemous. That is kind of bizarre.

The Bishop can say anything he likes, he's not part of the state, he's the local head of a voluntary religious organisation so his views are perfectly in line with normal public debate.

ShooterSF

Yahew wrote: »

Yes, so what happened here is not the blasphemy law being invoked, which I would oppose, and I think it should be removed. What happened here is that somebody took offence and dared protest. The modern "liberal" atheist cant be having different opinions.

No one has said they shouldn't be able to protest but they don't want to debate the issue or try and change the artist's mind. They want it banned and they want it banned now. Can you not see the problem with people being afforded their right to free speech to protest turning around and demanding someone else's free speech be taken away?

And in case you want to point out that we don't have total free speech in this country you have already correctly pointed out that the law is not the issue at hand here. It's the double standards.

Tin Foil Hat

koth wrote: »

seems the gardai have confirmed that they are investigating if the exhibition meets the criteria for a case under the blasphemy law.

sorry i can't post text from the link, currently posting via phone.

http://catholiclawyersblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/23/garda-siochana-investigate-cork-university-over-blasphemous-image-of-our-lady/

It's art. It's exempt. This will be the shortest investigation in the history of the state. About three minutes I'd say. Just long enough for the dozy git who initiated the investigation to read the legislation.

pH

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

It's art. It's exempt. This will be the shortest investigation in the history of the state. About three minutes I'd say. Just long enough for the dozy git who initiated the investigation to read the legislation.

No, merely being "art" isn't enough.

It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.

A "reasonable person" would have to find "genuine artistic" value for it to be exempt - note also the phrasing "defendant to prove".

Nodin

pH wrote: »

No, merely being "art" isn't enough.

It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.

A "reasonable person" would have to find "genuine artistic" value for it to be exempt - note also the phrasing "defendant to prove".

Does it have anything about it having to have offended 'reasonable people', I wonder....

AhSureTisGrand

Was there not something about Dermot Ahern making it extremely difficult to successfully prosecute someone under the blasphemous libel law?

recedite

Yahew wrote: »

No inquisition ran in Celtic Catholic Ireland. You are not a descendent of atheists anyway....

Has the leaving cert really being that dumbed down. What history is now taught? Do you even open a book? Have you any interest in the history of the Island you are on.

The Celts had many "pagan" gods, but probably didn't take them too seriously. Like the Romans, they had them mainly as inspirational superheroes.

Galvasean

The Fine Gael politician called on the university authorities to reconsider their decision to allow the exhibition on its campus "without affording others the opportunity to present an alternative and balanced point of view

What would an alternate and balanced POV in an art exhibition be? Put up a more traditional depiction of the Virgin Mary on the opposite side of the room and place a placard between them saying, "Pick your favourite"?

pH

Galvasean wrote: »

What would an alternate and balanced POV in an art exhibition be? Put up a more traditional depiction of the Virgin Mary on the opposite side of the room and place a placard between them saying, "Pick your favourite"?

I would guess there are many traditional pictures of Mary already on the UCC campus. People would seem to have a choice at the moment. No one is suggesting that anyone has a right to stick this picture up at a church altar and force the congregation to look at it.

recedite wrote:

The Celts had many "pagan" gods, but probably didn't take them too seriously. Like the Romans, they had them mainly as inspirational superheroes.

Are you saying they didn't believe in them in the same way as Christians, Hindus, Jews etc believe in theirs today? If so where did you get that idea from?