What is wrong with Campness?

Annasopra

I constantly see campness described as something wrong, something to be ashamed of, something that people claim that they are not, something that is abhorred, something that we assume is always an act

Why is this? Why do we deride it so much? What is wrong with it? Is it something to do with being seen as effeminate - Is it that feminine things are seen as lesser and should be put down? why do some people say that camp people flaunt their sexuality?


Personally I don't get campness. I do find that some campness can be irritating. I deliberately though try not to get too annoyed about it. What I really don't understand is though, why is it so strongly derided and rejected?

Skerries

oooh draaaaama!

diddlybit

I don't know, but it gets my heckles up. It's expressed so often on here and it makes my blood boil. Personally I think it's a form of self-loathing homophobia, in which people try to distance themselves from the figures that inspire the most homophobic vitriol. "I'm gay but I'm not like....so don't worry."

If I had a quid for everytime someone described themselves as "straight acting" or masculine on this forum, I'd have new shoes.

I love camp, but more so than that, I love the diversity of the LGBT community. We have enough problems as it is, we don't need to start pointing fingers and describing members as "too gay" or "not gay enough".

(This post refers only to men as in the OP, but I love the butch ladies too. Soemthing very suave about them.:) )

deirdre_dub

<sarcasm>
Nothing wrong with campness at all! It's the fscking transvestites and transsexuals that are the real bane of the LGBT community! :rolleyes: :mad:
</sarcasm>

IMO it's the same phenomenon, namely LGBT bigotry and intolerance. And it's not like I haven't seen some homophobia in the trans community. :mad:

Like diddlybit - I absolutely adore the diversity in the community. Happy Pride, everyone - let's pound the streets of the capital this weekend and celebrate that amazing diversity.

Aishae

to be honest im bemused by it when people say everyone who is gay seems camp or camp is everywhere. because that hasnt been my experience at all. the only place i see a lot of camp is on the tv. and of the folks ive met who are gay, ive never met one who seems to emulate the camp stereotype. wouldnt mind if i did meet one. i love the camp i only seem to hear of (or see on tv).

Aard

Campness doesn't piss me off in the sense of guys speaking with "that" voice, or having effeminate mannerisms. It's the bitchy/gossipy verbal diarrhoea that often goes with it that does. In my experience, the latter are usually a subgroup of the former, but the former aren't often a subgroup of the latter. Unfortunately, as ever, they're all lumped into the one pigeon-hole of "camp".

Ugh, I need a Venn diagram.

hare05

I love camp people, they're just so damn nice all the time, even when they're trying to be mean like the most evil thing they can do is speak with a slightly more stressed accent. I know, blatant stereotypeing but I love those guys!

And as mentioned above butches are sooo cool. I'd love to be a hyperdyke ;D

Platinum2010

Aard wrote: »

It's the bitchy/gossipy verbal diarrhoea that often goes with it

^^^^ This is one of my problems with it .
Other than that ,Campness doesnt bother me

Chuchoter

Campness is looked down on because anything feminine is looked down on. I don't mind campness, just generally the guys I know who I would describe as camp are shallow, not nice people.

wonderfulname

I don't know if it's the actual campness that is some peoples real problem, I think its the existence of a stereotype, possibly a bit of a hang up from a time where they thought that its who they would have to be were they gay. I think camp guys are made shoulder a lot of the blame for how gay people are perceived, just because they happen to fit that perception.

wonderfulname

hare05 wrote: »

I'd love to be a hyperdyke ;D

A what? Regardless of what it means, if I were a superhero, that would so be my alias.

apache

i don't mind camp guys or butch gals.
its the personality that wrecks my head not the persona.

Nebit

diddlybit wrote: »

I think it's a form of self-loathing homophobia, in which people try to distance themselves from the figures that inspire the most homophobic vitriol. "I'm gay but I'm not like....so don't worry.")

Sentences like this p*ss me off, im sorry, i understand that some people like to be more flamboyant than others that's fine by me, same applies to straight men, but it's when people assume that because you're gay you act this way when 'campness' annoys me.

YES im gay, NO im not camp AND NO im not self loathing. There are a lot of different people out there who behave differently.

If i was to say to someone 'oh you only act camp to identify as gay so it's easier for you making your sexuality your life', how would you think they'd react?

epgc3fyqirnbsx

People often don't like overly camp people for the same reason they might dislike overly macho people. It's just a personality trait that, when quite strong, can be highly irritating for some

Annasopra

Skye Straight Shop wrote: »

People often don't like overly camp people for the same reason they might dislike overly macho people. It's just a personality trait that, when quite strong, can be highly irritating for some

Why though? why do we get irritated by it?

Platinum2010

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Why though? why do we get irritated by it?

Well I don't think theres a definite answer for that because we're all different , for me if someone is overly macho and in my face constantly ,I'd get quite bored and therefore thats why id be irritated.If someone kept pushing something that i had no interest in onto me then I'd get irritated

For some people they may feeled threatened by stronger personality traits and thats why they may be irritated

or some people may find they arent confident enough to do something and they can be quite frustrated over it

Aard

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Why though? why do we get irritated by it?

It's perceived as being affected.

diddlybit

Nebit wrote: »

Sentences like this p*ss me off, im sorry, i understand that some people like to be more flamboyant than others that's fine by me, same applies to straight men, but it's when people assume that because you're gay you act this way when 'campness' annoys me.

Sorry, but this wasn't the point of what I was saying. Yes, it is irritating when people expect a person to act/dress/behave a certain way if he or she is gay. Of course it is, but that is no reason to dislike the people that do fit people's assumptions.

YES im gay, NO im not camp AND NO im not self loathing. There are a lot of different people out there who behave differently.

Sorry, I must have hit some form of nerve, but I stand by my point. The irrational dislike of campness has it's roots in homophobia. It's seen in this forum lots. Many guys inists upon and remind us that they are straight acting, as though if they weren't, they are somehow lacking in something. Society and culture value masculinity and and if a man shows any traits that are deemed to be less than the ideal, they are are the butt of jokes in mainstream representation, schools, workplaces etc. If everyone says "If don't mind gay people but I hate those camp guys", the easiest thing to do, in order to be accepted, is to distance oneself from these individuals.

If i was to say to someone 'oh you only act camp to identify as gay so it's easier for you making your sexuality your life', how would you think they'd react?

I have no idea. You would have to ask them. Also while your at it you would have to ask the person holding hands with their same sex partner in the street, the girl with the fo-hawk, the guy with the rainbow wristband and anyone wearing a political LGBT t-shirt.

Honestly, I think the world would be a duller place without camp.

baby and crumble

I don't have a problem with campness, I have an issue with bitchy, affected, whiny behaviour. And a lot of the time, the 2 things are confused.

Camp =/= gay. Look at camp straight men like Michael McIntyre. They're camp but not annoying. Look at Graham norton. Camp as a row of tents but not annoying. It's the personalities under the campness that irritates people. Sadly for some reason, a lot of irritating gay guys are, in my experience, camp as well. Therefore the campness becomes the annoying thing that people see, and it's easy to vilifile.

stephen_n

The concept of internalized homophobia which frankly I think is complete bull**** created by people who over identify with their sexuality and think anyone not conforming to their ideals of being comfortable with themselves when in truth the militant expression of this over identification probably is a clearer expression of lacking comfort. If anything the attempt to disassociate from campness is one way of over coming homophobia. Gay = camp is a homophobic stereotype in itself. The acceptable side of gay culture portrayed in main stream media is the overly camp, overly bitchy and whitty gay guy so this is where society puts you if your gay! Straight acting is a very misleading term and one that has crept in through a lack of suitable language, it is not a suggestion of disowning anything but a way of disengaging from a homophobic stereotype! I have no problem with campness and I think to a certain degree it is in most gay guys but not the total attention whoring way that some guys are!

steve9859

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Why though? why do we get irritated by it?

Because it is pushing your sexuality in someone's face. Exactly the same as is someone was walking down the street shouting that they are a heterosexual and that they are proud of being a heterosexual, whilst portraying macho mannerisms. Would that not irritate you? Many would perceive it as 'Im better than you' kind of behaviour. Overly camp people bring that kind of reaction out in me, I have to say

Annasopra

steve9859 wrote: »

Because it is pushing your sexuality in someone's face. Exactly the same as is someone was walking down the street shouting that they are a heterosexual and that they are proud of being a heterosexual, whilst portraying macho mannerisms. Would that not irritate you? Many would perceive it as 'Im better than you' kind of behaviour. Overly camp people bring that kind of reaction out in me, I have to say

How is it pushing your sexuality in someone's face?

Morag

It's gender politics more then a sexuality issue imho.
It's rooted in the notion that women are lesser then men and for a man to act in what is consider a womanly/feminine way he's making less of himself.
And why would a person who is what is considered to be the best a person can be a Man want to be less?

There are camp/effeminate acting men who are hetrosexual, it's not just gay/bi men.

deirdre_dub

Sharrow wrote: »

It's gender politics more then a sexuality issue imho.

This.

I see more transphobia than homophobia in this whole "fsck the camp guys" thing.

But let's get real for a second. Trans is not camp. Gay isn't camp either. The only thing that is camp is camp.

So it isn't actually homophobic, internal or otherwise. Neither is it transphobic. It is camp-phobic.

Yes there is an association amongst a few straight people between camp and gay. There is also an association amongst more than a few straight and even LGB people between a transitioning M2F and a drag queen, so get over yourself!

Donnaghm

Sometimes I find it endearing (Graham Norton, Paul O'Grady, Doc Wan), other times I find it down right annoying (Shirley Temple Bar).

Goodshape

People being camp isn't the issue for me at all. What annoys me is that camp and gay are practically inseparable in media and subsequently public opinion of what "gay" is.

Barring a few (and certainly increasing number of!) exceptions you've basically got two types of gays in the media, the fun camp bouncing gay and the hopelessly repressed deviant gay.

Pointing out that "but I'm not camp" is just necessary sometimes because it's still the assumption people make. It's certainly not self loathing or internalised homophobia, because I am gay... and I'm not camp. That's my self and I don't hate anything about it.

Morag

I think the 'Bear' is getting more known, ok yes it's another sterotype and some Bears are camp and some are not but it is more diversity.

Duddy

I think its annoying to some because it adheres to a long-established stereotype, think Mr.Humphries in Are You Being Served? John Inman was camp and gay, and in becoming a household figure the British and Irish public equated the two.

The irritation that some may feel when meeting a camp person might stem from an idea that camp people aren't showing off the diversity that exists in the LGBT community, and instead sticking to the stereotype, which is rubbish IMO.
Another source of irritation could be the bitchiness/promiscuity that has sadly become associated with the camp stereotype.

To be honest, I find gay guys who try to be "macho" when they are clearly quite camp much more annoying than someone being themselves.

df1985

I wouldnt say i have a problem with it but i find annoying guys who turn into bitchy camp queens the minute they come out. being gay doesnt change your personality overnight.

I know one lad who came out and turned into a mouthpiece when he came out. insulted people to their faces thinking he could get away with it because he was a small camp gay guy. He called a girl fat in a club one night, said her clothes didnt fit........he got knocked out. campness isnt an excuse for being an asshole which some use it as.

Morag

df1985 wrote: »

I wouldnt say i have a problem with it but i find annoying guys who turn into bitchy camp queens the minute they come out. being gay doesnt change your personality overnight.

I know one lad who came out and turned into a mouthpiece when he came out. insulted people to their faces thinking he could get away with it because he was a small camp gay guy. He called a girl fat in a club one night, said her clothes didnt fit........he got knocked out. campness isnt an excuse for being an asshole which some use it as.

Ah the period of being SuperGay which some young people go through.
They end up trying to conform to the most out there sterotype as to prove that they are gay and they seem to think that this is how "Gay" people behave.

I still would not put the blame for that one campness but shortsightedness/ignorance on the young person's behalf.

And yes your right it's never an excuse to be an arsehole.

Sounds like your friend could have done with being exposed to Adam & Andy, http://www.adamandandy.com/.

KnifeWRENCH

I don't mind people who are naturally a little bit camp; I've been told myself that I'm a bit effeminate (not sure why exactly, but anyway....)

I do mind people who exaggerate their campness and make it their identity. The bitchy, gossippy, fabulous, sparkly queen stereotype that some people live up to; that's what highly irritates me.

Think Jack from Will & Grace (and yeah, it was a TV show but people like that do exist out there);Those kind of people I can't stand. It's nothing to do with homophobia, it's just a dislike of people I find irritating and unlikeable.

Platinum2010

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

I do mind people who exaggerate their campness and make it their identity. The bitchy, gossippy, fabulous, sparkly queen stereotype that some people live up to; that's what highly irritates me.

Think Jack from Will & Grace (and yeah, it was a TV show but people like that do exist out there);Those kind of people I can't stand. It's nothing to do with homophobia, it's just a dislike of people I find irritating and unlikeable.

^^^ This

Chuchoter

df1985 wrote: »

I wouldnt say i have a problem with it but i find annoying guys who turn into bitchy camp queens the minute they come out. being gay doesnt change your personality overnight.

I know one lad who came out and turned into a mouthpiece when he came out. insulted people to their faces thinking he could get away with it because he was a small camp gay guy. He called a girl fat in a club one night, said her clothes didnt fit........he got knocked out. campness isnt an excuse for being an asshole which some use it as.

Plus a million, I was pretty close friends with this guy before he came out and he was so nice. Then he came out and just completely changed. We don't even talk anymore.

ninty9er

zoegh wrote: »

Camp as a row of tents

LMFAO. I'll be using that one

df1985 wrote: »

I wouldnt say i have a problem with it but i find annoying guys who turn into bitchy camp queens the minute they come out.

I think this is getting to the core of it. I don't have a problem with people who have always been camp, it's people who become camp for no apparent reason other than they're now openly gay/bi that bug me.

Morag

ninty9er wrote: »

I think this is getting to the core of it. I don't have a problem with people who have always been camp, it's people who become camp for no apparent reason other than they're now openly gay/bi that bug me.

Ever stop to think that, that is how they are normally and they have had to live a very restricted life, carefully masking their reactions to things to fit in, to constantly force themselves into a mode of expression which to them is not natural?

ninty9er

Sharrow wrote: »

Ever stop to think that, that is how they are normally and they have had to live a very restricted life, carefully masking their reactions to things to fit in, to constantly force themselves into a mode of expression which to them is not natural?

No. I know camp straight people and they don't feel the need to mask it, so I wouldn't expect anyone else would either.

alexjk

Of course some people tone down their campness before coming out, do you think a macho guy is going to get nearly as much hassle as someone who is a bit (or very much) effeminate? When people come out, often they get more confident so they feel more comfortable expressing parts of their personality that they didn't before.

As for people who equate campness with bitchiness, anyone can be like that regardless of how burly or not you percieve them to be. It's a very simplistic approach to looking at it and really more of a scapegoat to rationalise why you don't like effeminate behaviour in men.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Its perceived as being fake. It is also sometimes quite American sounding. People find both those things annoying.

alexjk

Is behaviour innate, learned or a mixture of both?
Off-topic:
Lots of Irish people, camp or otherwise, use American phrases. Do you get equally annoyed at computer fanatics saying noob, epic etc? We are a country of 4.5 million people, and we speak the language of Great Britain and the USA, both of whom absolutely dominate our media. We don't speak our own language, so it's a bizarre thing to dislike someone for.

watawaster

I'm gay and not camp, I'm just myself.

I sometimes get the feeling that extreme campness is an acquired behaviour. When gays just hang out with girls and other camp gay guys and have no straight guy friends it kind of exacerbates it.

I think we all pick up mannerisms that our friends have, so what i'm saying is very flamboyant campness may be more of a habit that has been built up over years of socialising almost exclusively within the gay and female communities. But then again some guys come out of the womb dancing and flailing their arms..:D

The camp stereotype is the bain of my life. Imagine this- normal bar (ie not gay bar) with straight friends and we get talking to some irish and aussi girls, somehow me being gay comes up in conversation and they start apologising "Oh my god I had no idea, I'm sooo sorry!".. Ha ha what were they sorry for? Treating me as they would any other guy? Then later some camp song is played and i'm told that i should be "screaming my heart out"... (I don't sing and can't dance).

I don't hate camp guys or anything like that but a lot of flamboyance is fairly grating. And being put in this narrowminded box by some straight people is a little condescending somehow. On the other hand those straight people that hear your gay and simply shrug their shoulders - thats all i'm looking for!

Apologies for this long post, my overall point is that being very camp is possibly habit, and paints us all with a rainbow of america's top model and bitchiness.

EugeneOnegin

watawaster wrote: »

I think we all pick up mannerisms that our friends have, so what i'm saying is very flamboyant campness may be more of a habit that has been built up over years of socialising almost exclusively within the gay and female communities. But then again some guys come out of the womb dancing and flailing their arms..:D

You're so sitting on the fence there! Nature or nurture I wonder?

In my experience as a gay guy, I've found myself consistently at odds with a lot of guys I've meet out at places likes gay bars or college LGBT societies. That is because a lot of these guys are extremely camp. I'm no shrink, but I often have wondered whether guys act in such a way (extroverted, flamboyant, effeminate etc) intentionally as a device to compensate for some insecurities?

Hmm...

alexjk

From my own experience, I'm more camp around people I'm comfortable with.

Pet

What is "wrong" with campness? In short,

For straight people (especially men): campness (that is, excessively feminine behaviour), is a major taboo in a patriarchal society that expects men to live up to its own certain (unrealistic?) definitions of "masculinity". From an early age, all men are kept in line -- defectors are punished by ridicule -- so the sight of camp types mincing around with nary a care in the world can really enrage some guys.

For gay men: campness, being highly visible and easily identifiable, is the de facto perception, the stereotype of what it means to be gay, perpetrated by the media and everyday perceptual bias. This stereotype really damages those of us who are gay but not camp. It perpetrates the myth that homosexuality = effeminate traits. It's myopic. It's lazy. It's untrue. Most of all, it's limiting. I am not some hulking, machismo-laden, barely-verbal primate, true, but neither am I a mincing, vapid, fatuous caricature. I'm somewhere in between, and I'd like to be taken at face value, thank you.

Bonus extra: some posters have mentioned the campness-bitchiness connection. This is something I've encountered all too often, sadly, and it really makes me wary of stereotypically camp guys, because in my experience, they've all watched Mean Girls one too many times and try their best to emulate Regina (for two-facedness) and Karen (for airheadedness) rather than Cady. So yeah, I'll spit it right out for you: to me, "camp" encompasses largely negative stereotypical traits, possessed by frequently tedious, often-despicable people whom I actively avoid.

alexjk

I quote Mean Girls, but in a sarcastic way. I am well aware that the characters are not aspirational.

EugeneOnegin

Pet wrote: »

What is "wrong" with campness? In short,

For straight people (especially men): campness (that is, excessively feminine behaviour), is a major taboo in a patriarchal society that expects men to live up to its own certain (unrealistic?) definitions of "masculinity". From an early age, all men are kept in line -- defectors are punished by ridicule -- so the sight of camp types mincing around with nary a care in the world can really enrage some guys.

I would imagine this too is true bone of contention for non-camp gay guys.
However, I would argue that the aversion to all things camp go beyond those gender roles which are endemic in society and programmed into us all from an early age.

watawaster

EugeneOnegin wrote:

I'm no shrink, but I often have wondered whether guys act in such a way (extroverted, flamboyant, effeminate etc) intentionally as a device to compensate for some insecurities?

You might be on to something. For example being very camp takes the frequent 'coming out' to new people out of the equation. Non camp gays are constantly having to come out and maybe if you had a particularly traumatic coming out, flamboyance may be a way to avoid it. Of course this theory doesnt work for those in the gay bars and LGBT socs.


I don't know man, I'm happy out on this fence

yawha

Am I the only one who doesn't see anything necessarily "feminine" about campness? I don't think I know any girls who would act camp...

Anyways, I think that "campness" is incredibly ill defined. Some people see it as describing quite a wide class of men, who are well groomed and with some flirty mannerisms. A lot of people would instantly think of an incredibly irritating, and sadly, quite large annoying subset of this.

It's not too dissimilar to how a lot of people find the whole D4 thing annoying really.

Finally, it is really, really, really bizarre how any kind of behavioural trait besides attraction to the same sex can be associated with homosexuality. It must be pretty annoying for gay guys who aren't like this.

EugeneOnegin

yawha wrote: »

Am I the only one who doesn't see anything necessarily "feminine" about campness? I don't think I know any girls who would act camp...

Well I think I can see where you're coming from with that, however campness really is just some overt feminine behaviour/trait(s) in men. That is, "camp" men demonstrate more feminine characteristics than masculine ones.

yawha wrote: »

Anyways, I think that "campness" is incredibly ill defined. Some people see it as describing quite a wide class of men, who are well groomed and with some flirty mannerisms. A lot of people would instantly think of an incredibly irritating, and sadly, quite large annoying subset of this.

Unfortunately, campness is very well defined- thanks to the enforced gender roles we encounter in society every day. The very same gender roles which condition us all from a very early age. Men who don't not behave "typically masculine" or whose mannerisms/persona etc is more feminine are easily classifiable as "camp".

yawha wrote: »

Finally, it is really, really, really bizarre how any kind of behavioural trait besides attraction to the same sex can be associated with homosexuality. It must be pretty annoying for gay guys who aren't like this.

Absolutely, it is very annoying. Personally, I have no issue with guys who act camp (for whatever reason be it biological or psychological).
I do however have a problem with that seemingly permanent association that camp has with gay. (It's the same thing for lesbians with the word butch). Campness is completely separate from the homosexual condition. Being camp is not a qualify characteristics of homosexuality.
Let's face it, you don't have to be camp to be gay nor do you have to be "manly" to be straight.

However that camp-gay association is so ingrained in our societal psyche that it is expected of ALL gay men to behave in a effeminate and camp manner. Such a stereotype is an extremely damaging one and often used to diminish the masculinity of gay men. In fact that stereotype, is a set back for the LGBT rights movement which has made some phenomenal progress in recent years; especially in asserting the fact that not all LGBT people are the same.

strobe

Just in relation to the 'people dislike camp because they view anything feminine as inferior' view...

Well personally I think that is nonsense. I find extremely camp people very annoying a lot of the time but it has nothing to do with them acting feminine. I wouldn't qualify 'campness' as merely being effeminate. I would think of it as that particular type of over the top, attention seeking, melodramatic quasi-femininity.

I find it annoying when screechy heterosexual girls exhibit it and I find it annoying when screechy homosexual guys exhibit it also. However a girl just being 'girly' would not annoy me in the slightest. I don't particularly think - insane degree of unwarranted egocentric melodrama = feminine/girly.

I wouldn't necessarily describe someone that was a bit 'girly' or effeminate as 'camp', it's what goes with it as described above. I think this may also be the case with other people when they say they dislike campness?

df1985

Think it can be a self defence mechanism for some. If they perceive someone may have a problem with them they will be loud/in your face, a kind of show of "strength." People with insecurities are some of the loudest people.....maybe they feel under some sort of threat.

Also if youre overtly camp, everyone will know youre gay straight away, no awkward coming out conversations for you.(Im bloody sick of them)

apache

can you be camp and be a lesbian because i think i am
i am a little rough on the edges but i dance like a camp man and sometimes have the mannerisms.
what am i?