Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Passive resistance against the Nazis

  • 22-06-2011 9:18pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭


    I was recently having a discussion (sort of) with a friend of mine. He has very strong opinions regarding things like the death penalty (it's murder and that's never OK) and War. He is totally against the principle of War and is of the opinion that it is 'never needed'.

    So I put the case of war against Nazi Germany being justified. He wasn't having that, and instead came out with the view that if everyone in occupied countries 'passively resisted' the occupation, eventually the regime would fall apart.

    Does anyone agree with this view and where do you think he is getting this ideology from? Some kind of new age Ghandism or something?

    Surely the only way Nazism could/should have been dealt with was with military defeat???


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,384 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    As much as I hate war, I think that claiming passive resistance could have defeated the Nazi's is absolute lunacy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Your friend is an idiot.

    Its kind of ironic that your posting this thread on the 70th anniversary of Operation Barbarossa as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    As much as I hate war, I think that claiming passive resistance could have defeated the Nazi's is absolute lunacy.

    That's what I think.

    Here's an extract from the discussion we were having in Facebook of all places. Sorry for the lenght. He seems to have some kind of idealistic pacifist thing going on, I can't get my head around it...

    "The lowest credible estimates for casualties in WW2 put the figure at 50 million dead (and many estimates are toward 90 million). As can be seen numerous times throughout history, whenever a belligerent over-ambitious regime seeks to build... an empire by invasion, the empire is unsustainable and eventually disintegrates. In the case of the Nazis, occupying and controlling Europe for any meaningful length of time would have proved impossible. Had every citizen of every country they invaded passively resisted their occupation, their empire would certainly have collapsed in no more than two decades, and probably a lot sooner. I'd suggest they would have had to withdraw from most of the occupied countries within a decade, installing puppet regimes before they left. The puppet regimes would eventually have been overthrown by popular opposition, and the Nazi regime would as a consequence, have eventually collapsed. The suggestion that had the Nazis been allowed to advance without military opposition, we would all now be under the yoke of Nazi oppression is false. Their madness was doomed to failure because it was just that, madness. Just as the Soviet system collapsed without military action, so too will the religious extremist regimes of the Middle East (it's happening now) and so too eventually will North Korea's junta (and so too will the oil/resource empire of the west, eventually to be superseded by Chinese, then possibly Russia, India, and so on, for as long as people fall to see the folly of confrontational and competitive international politics, but that's a debate in itself). There is only so long you can oppress people before the pressure for change becomes critical. I'm positive that whatever the outcome of WW2 had been, there would be no Nazi empire in 2011. I guess the human toll of the pacifist approach to opposing the Nazis would have been no more than 20 million, and the long term influence of a peaceful resistance to tyranny would have set a precedent and example to all those contemplating taking up arms"


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    How does passive resistance work against a group that is trying to exterminate you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    How does passive resistance work against a group that is trying to exterminate you?
    I think you will find it was the Germans who didn't want a war.
    As for the original question. I think your friend is away with the fairies.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    digme wrote: »
    I think you will find it was the Germans who didn't want a war.
    As for the original question. I think your friend is away with the fairies.
    Invading other countries is not a good way to not start a war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    digme wrote: »
    I think you will find it was the Germans who didn't want a war.
    As for the original question. I think your friend is away with the fairies.

    And what exactly did the Germans want? To be good neighbours and maybe just have a little bit of extra living space somewhere local? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Invading other countries is not a good way to not start a war.
    What countries ?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    digme wrote: »
    I think you will find it was the Germans who didn't want a war.
    As for the original question. I think your friend is away with the fairies.

    sorry mate, I don't follow


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    sorry mate, I don't follow
    I was pointing out germany never wanted a war.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,971 ✭✭✭Orim


    Conservative estimates of the number of people killed by the Nazis is just under 10.5 million. This includes the time gaining power and fighting WW2. Yet he believes that with no war and another 20 years (a strikingly low figure if their is no international confrontation and only internal opposition) the death toll of would only be 20 million?

    With Hitler in control the Nazi empire may not have lasted indefinitely but the loss of life over the years would have catastrophic and probably would have exceeded the numbers that were killed as a result of the war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    digme wrote: »
    I was pointing out germany never wanted a war.

    What did they want apart from the extermination of the Jews and a master race?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,384 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    digme wrote: »
    What countries ?

    Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia. Several more after war was declared by Britain and France. Make sure to come into school tomorrow, we'll be doing our ABC's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia. Several more after war was declared by Britain and France. Make sure to come into school tomorrow, we'll be doing our ABC's.
    Yes that's right. Britain declared war on Germany.And why was that?
    I'll wait while you score google..........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Cannibal Ox


    lastlaugh wrote:
    Surely the only way Nazism could/should have been dealt with was with military defeat???
    I don't think the Nazi's convinced the vast majority of German people through blitzkrieg, and I think that's important. They used non-violent methods against the vast majority of their own people to convince them to their side. So, I'd say that the point when you could've met like for like, non-violence against non-violence, was in the 1930s, not when they were rolling into Poland or when the Allies were landing on Normandy. If you restrict it to the 40s, the answer is pretty obvious, but if you step back and say, where is the moment they were enabled to commit acts of violence, the period when they started to gain power to even dream of the violence they'd commit, and how they could've been met then, I think you get a different answer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,384 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    digme wrote: »
    Yes that's right. Britain declared war on Germany.And why was that?
    I'll wait while you score google..........

    Because Germany had been warned several times to stop its aggressive expansion and hadn't done so. They knew perfectly well that they were starting a war with Britain and France if they invaded Poland.

    I never thought the day would come when somebody on boards would try and absolve the Nazis of any culpability in the origins of the Second World War.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    digme wrote: »
    Yes that's right. Britain declared war on Germany.And why was that?
    I'll wait while you score google..........

    Because they realised Appeasment wasn't going to work and Germany invaded Poland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭Mickjg


    Passive resistance would not have worked. Full stop.

    Don't forget what it was that the Germans were really setting out to do: Lebensraum, which translates int "living space". The didn't just want to conquer. They were planning on making room for the Aryan race, by exterminating others. Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, religious, intellectuals, political figures and activists. The people in the east of Slavic origin were to be enslaved. Those who weren't enslaved would be exterminated. There were absolutely no compassionate plans about the Nazi Empire. There was to be no sympathy. No rights. No life.

    Resistance within countries failed miserably. The Warsaw uprising was blasted into the earth, as was Kiev. After Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated in Prague the response was to go to the villages of Lidice and Ležáky and murder ALL males aged 16 and over. Hitler initially wanted the reparations to be the murder of 10,000 random czechs. The only reason this wasn't carried out was because this would reduce the work force, so the former solution was put in place.

    If not for the intervention of outside forces, the Nazi regime would have had no problem in firmly and long lastingly establishing itself across Europe. The Nazi's used overwhelming force and unremitting brutality to enforce their way. Fact.

    The idea that passive resistance would have beaten them is utter nonsense. Even armed resistance from within led to massacre. It just could not have happened.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭baalthor


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    so too will the religious extremist regimes of the Middle East (it's happening now)

    It's actually the more secular/liberal regimes that are under threat or have been overthrown. (Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria,Tunisia, Bahrain)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    digme wrote: »
    I was pointing out germany never wanted a war.


    Is that a joke? I mean seriously, after all we now know about WW2 and the Nazi regime, how can anyone say Germany didn't want war? Admittedly, some Nazi wanted to start the war in or around 1942 but they still wanted it.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    kev9100 wrote: »
    Is that a joke? I mean seriously, after all we now know about WW2 and the Nazi regime, how can anyone say Germany didn't want war? Admittedly, some Nazi wanted to start the war in or around 1942 but they still wanted it.

    That's not entirely correct. Hitler and a number of his cabinet wanted war. The Wehrmacht and it's hierarchy didn't actually want a conflict broadly speaking, and whilst its easy in hindsight to admire how quickly the Germans steamrolled over France, in 1940, many German generals felt that they would loose in a conflict with France supported by Britain, and the allies had, at that time, a considerably larger armed force then that of Germany. Appetite for war wasn't overly evident amongst the population either. There were plots within the military to remove Hitler before the war even began, but these unfortunately came to nothing.

    Not to mention either, that Hitler didn't actually want war with the western powers at all, though his actions certainly offered little other choice. But it's still an accurate statement to say that the Nazi's didn't want war, at least, not in the sense that the war began in 1939, as Hitler greatly preferred the idea of not having to fight Britain and maintain the status quo in western europe, in particular. The plan was always to permanently expand eastwards to the urals at the expensive of the SU, not westwards. War with France and Britain came as a byproduct of that aggressive expansionism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,102 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    OP where does your friend live, I fancy some passive resistance and I think I'd get more than 20 years of it. ;-)

    Back to the point.

    The German army was given orders to commit war crimes as part of Russian invasion.

    Uncle Joe wasn't any better.

    How does he think the Japanese should have been dealt with? They would have loved passive resistance.

    Comparing our lives and morals now, which are largely shaped by the baby boomers aversion to death after the waste of WW2, is madness. Hell just look at Libya and see how far passive resistance and then full scale war get you against a people who don't value human life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    I'm not sure that passive resistance would have overthrown the nazi war machine.

    If you look at the war, the nazi's over ran countries which resisted militarily with the exception of Britain.
    Every other nation were beaten of the pitch between 1939-1941.
    In 1942, the Soviets through literally millions of people at the nazi war machine in order to sustain resistance.
    That terrible cost in human lives would total 27 million Soviet dead by 1945.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    I was recently having a discussion (sort of) with a friend of mine. He has very strong opinions regarding things like the death penalty (it's murder and that's never OK) and War. He is totally against the principle of War and is of the opinion that it is 'never needed'.

    So I put the case of war against Nazi Germany being justified. He wasn't having that, and instead came out with the view that if everyone in occupied countries 'passively resisted' the occupation, eventually the regime would fall apart.

    Does anyone agree with this view and where do you think he is getting this ideology from? Some kind of new age Ghandism or something?

    Surely the only way Nazism could/should have been dealt with was with military defeat???

    It's like taking the fundamental conclusions of WW2, then coming to the exact opposite conclusion.

    The only way it can make sense is if your friend is a holocaust denier and 6 million Jews are living on Madagascar.

    The real irony is that, passive resistance is what allowed WW2 to occur.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    That's not entirely correct. Hitler and a number of his cabinet wanted war. The Wehrmacht and it's hierarchy didn't actually want a conflict broadly speaking, and whilst its easy in hindsight to admire how quickly the Germans steamrolled over France, in 1940, many German generals felt that they would loose in a conflict with France supported by Britain, and the allies had, at that time, a considerably larger armed force then that of Germany. Appetite for war wasn't overly evident amongst the population either. There were plots within the military to remove Hitler before the war even began, but these unfortunately came to nothing.

    Not to mention either, that Hitler didn't actually want war with the western powers at all, though his actions certainly offered little other choice. But it's still an accurate statement to say that the Nazi's didn't want war, at least, not in the sense that the war began in 1939, as Hitler greatly preferred the idea of not having to fight Britain and maintain the status quo in western europe, in particular. The plan was always to permanently expand eastwards to the urals at the expensive of the SU, not westwards. War with France and Britain came as a byproduct of that aggressive expansionism.

    Good post.
    It's worth noting that Guensche & Linge among others are on record as stating that Goering and a few others on the cabinet were opposed to the invasion of Poland as they felt Germany was insufficiently armed.

    Hitler certainly wanted the war.

    You can hear Hitler say it himself here (he was secretly recorded in Finland), if you skip to 27:10
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2763127556620650689#

    Mein Kampf is available here:
    http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭brianthelion


    If you want to find out about resistence in Germany during the war then you have to read Every Man Dies Alone by Hans Fallata,Re Germany wanting war that is not really true.Hitler went about taking back the lands which had been taking from them after WW1, a part which was in Poland.England and France reluctently declared war on Germany but for about 7 months they did nothing,When the Germans rolled into France so easily they were shocked,They had the Engish and French forces at their mercy at Dunkirk and they let them go all 350,000 of them.I am not saying Germany was right all I am saying is some of your facts are wrong


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Good post.
    It's worth noting that Guensche & Linge among others are on record as stating that Goering and a few others on the cabinet were opposed to the invasion of Poland as they felt Germany was insufficiently armed.

    Hitler certainly wanted the war.

    You can hear Hitler say it himself here (he was secretly recorded in Finland), if you skip to 27:10
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2763127556620650689#

    Mein Kampf is available here:
    http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/

    I'd be interested in how/where you derived Otto Gunsche and Heinz Linge's views?

    The fact of the matter is the Gunsche wasn't Hitler's adjutant in 1939 and Linge was not on Hitlers staff in 1939 either.

    Are you quoting from Stalin's "Hitler Book"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    hinault wrote: »
    I'd be interested in how/where you derived Otto Gunsche and Heinz Linge's views?

    You can purchase Linge's memoirs here:
    http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-End-Memoir-Hitlers-Valet/dp/1602398046
    He is also featured in the World at War series, among others.

    Gunsche never published his memoirs - the NKVD book is the main source of his views, but not the only source.
    Are you quoting from Stalin's "Hitler Book"?

    Yes, among others.
    This should suffice:
    http://www.amazon.com/Goering-Richard-Overy/dp/1842120484

    I suggest you read Albert Speers 'Inside the Third Reich' if you haven't done so.
    http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Third-Reich-Albert-Speer/dp/0684829495
    The fact of the matter is the Gunsche wasn't Hitler's adjutant in 1939 and Linge was not on Hitlers staff in 1939 either.

    thereby implying that they weren't privy to this information?

    It's corroborated by numerous individuals in the inner circle.
    Linge was selected as one of Hitler's original bodyguards in 1935 and rarely left his side.
    Goering's opposition to the two front war/operation Barbarossa is not exactly a secret either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Hitler went about taking back the lands which had been taking from them after WW1, a part which was in Poland.

    The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact had already been agreed prior to the invasion of Poland, which renders that theory redundant.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Why is this not in the History forum???

    Invasion of a country's borders is an act of war, by the way.
    When the Germans and Soviets (people seem to keep forgetting the USSR here) invaded Poland in 1939, it was an act of war.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭EggsAckley


    OP - Reading George Orwell is one of the reasons I am not a pacifist. Here is his review of Mein Kampf which I believe gives a reasonable picture of Eurasia had Hitler won and passive resistance would only have facilitated his plans
    New English Weekly, 21 March 1940
    It is a sign of the speed at which events are moving that Hurst and Blackett’s unexpurgated edition of Mein Kampf, published only a year ago, is edited from a pro-Hitler angle. The obvious intention of the translator’s preface and notes is to tone down the book’s ferocity and present Hitler in as kindly a light as possible. For at that date Hitler was still respectable. He had crushed the German labour movement, and for that the property-owning classes were willing to forgive him almost anything. Both Left and Right concurred in the very shallow notion that National Socialism was merely a version of Conservatism.
    Then suddenly it turned out that Hitler was not respectable after all. As one result of this, Hurst and Blackett’s edition was reissued in a new jacket explaining that all profits would be devoted to the Red Cross. Nevertheless, simply on the internal evidence of Mein Kampf, it is difficult to believe that any real change has taken place in Hitler’s aims and opinions. When one compares his utterances of a year or so ago with those made fifteen years earlier, a thing that strikes one is the rigidity of his mind, the way in which his world-view doesn’t develop. It is the fixed vision of a monomaniac and not likely to be much affected by the temporary manoeuvres of power politics. Probably, in Hitler’s own mind, the Russo-German Pact represents no more than an alteration of time-table. The plan laid down in Mein Kampf was to smash Russia first, with the implied intention of smashing England afterwards. Now, as it has turned out, England has got to be dealt with first, because Russia was the more easily bribed of the two. But Russia’s turn will come when England is out of the picture — that, no doubt, is how Hitler sees it. Whether it will turn out that way is of course a different question.
    Suppose that Hitler’s programme could be put into effect. What he envisages, a hundred years hence, is a continuous state of 250 million Germans with plenty of “living room” (i.e. stretching to Afghanistan or thereabouts), a horrible brainless empire in which, essentially, nothing ever happens except the training of young men for war and the endless breeding of fresh cannon-fodder. How was it that he was able to put this monstrous decision across? It is easy to say that at one stage of his career he was financed by the heavy industrialists, who saw in him the man who would smash the Socialists and Communists. They would not have backed him, however, if he had not talked a great movement into existence already. Again, the situation in Germany, with its seven million unemployed, was obviously favourable for demagogues. But Hitler could not have succeeded against his many rivals if it had not been for the attraction of his own personality, which one can feel even in the clumsy writing of Mein Kampf, and which is no doubt overwhelming when one hears his speeches. I should like to put it on record that I have never been able to dislike Hitler. Ever since he came to power — till then, like nearly everyone, I had been deceived into thinking that he did not matter — I have reflected that I would certainly kill him if I could get within reach of him, but that I could feel no personal animosity. The fact is that there is something deeply appealing about him. One feels it again when one sees his photographs — and I recommend especially the photograph at the beginning of Hurst and Blackett’s edition, which shows Hitler in his early Brownshirt days. It is a pathetic, dog-like face, the face of a man suffering under intolerable wrongs. In a rather more manly way it reproduces the expression of innumerable pictures of Christ crucified, and there is little doubt that that is how Hitler sees himself. The initial personal cause of his grievance against the universe can only be guessed at; but at any rate the grievance is there. He is the martyr, the victim. Prometheus chained to the rock, the self-sacrificing hero who fights single-handed against impossible odds. If he were killing a mouse he would know how to make it seem like a dragon. One feels, as with Napoleon, that he is fighting against destiny, that he can’t win, and yet that he somehow deserves to. The attraction of such a pose is of course enormous; half the films that one sees turn upon some such theme.
    Also he has grasped the falsity of the hedonistic attitude to life. Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all “progressive” thought, has assumed tacitly that human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain. In such a view of life there is no room, for instance, for patriotism and the military virtues. The Socialist who finds his children playing with soldiers is usually upset, but he is never able to think of a substitute for the tin soldiers; tin pacifists somehow won’t do. Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades. However they may be as economic theories, Fascism and Nazism are psychologically far sounder than any hedonistic conception of life. The same is probably true of Stalin’s militarized version of Socialism. All three of the great dictators have enhanced their power by imposing intolerable burdens on their peoples. Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people “I offer you a good time,” Hitler has said to them “I offer you struggle, danger and death,” and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet. Perhaps later on they will get sick of it and change their minds, as at the end of the last war. After a few years of slaughter and starvation “Greatest happiness of the greatest number” is a good slogan, but at this moment “Better an end with horror than a horror without end” is a winner. Now that we are fighting against the man who coined it, we ought not to underrate its emotional appeal.
    30px-SemiPD-icon.svg.png
    http://www.wikilivres.info/wiki/Review_of_Mein_Kampf_by_Adolf_Hitler


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    digme wrote: »
    I was pointing out germany never wanted a war.

    It was Germany which articulated the notion of 'Total War ' during the second world war..
    ( Yes I know the idea had been around for quite a while).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    You can purchase Linge's memoirs here:
    http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-End-Memoir-Hitlers-Valet/dp/1602398046
    He is also featured in the World at War series, among others.

    Gunsche never published his memoirs - the NKVD book is the main source of his views, but not the only source.



    Yes, among others.
    This should suffice:
    http://www.amazon.com/Goering-Richard-Overy/dp/1842120484

    I suggest you read Albert Speers 'Inside the Third Reich' if you haven't done so.
    http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Third-Reich-Albert-Speer/dp/0684829495



    thereby implying that they weren't privy to this information?

    It's corroborated by numerous individuals in the inner circle.
    Linge was selected as one of Hitler's original bodyguards in 1935 and rarely left his side.
    Goering's opposition to the two front war/operation Barbarossa is not exactly a secret either.

    You stated that Gunsche and Linge were on record expressing views opposing the invasion of Poland!
    Perhaps you meant Russia??

    I still take issue that either Gunsche or Linge would have been privy to the views of Goering or anyone else in the German high command.
    They would have perhaps heard snatches of conversations while carrying out their duties but they certainly wouldn't have been privy to the full blown discussions and debates concerning strategy.

    Also the fact that their views were recorded for a book commissioned specially for Stalin while in captivity devalues the merit of those views I would contend.
    Stalin was obsessed with Hitler and NKVD would have gone to great lengths to ensure the narrative of what he wanted to hear complied with the views expressed by Gunsche and Linge.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Hi all, here is another extract, if you have a bit of time on your hands!
    I felt compelled to argue against the whole passive resistance thing on principal, especially against Nazi Germany. Although he has put a lot of thought into his arguments, I think they are misguided and too idealistic.


    "Eh, OK gents, in order: Yes Niall, that's my opinion. I don't believe a dictatorial regime could suppress the peoples of western Europe for any longer than that. I can't prove it of course, because yes Danny, it's a guess, but it's conjec...ture, it's based on reason and evidence. I'd certainly concede that they may have held their empire together for more than that, the timescale is certainly open to debate, but based on the example of the collapse of the soviet influence on eastern Europe, I'm absolutely certain they would be long gone by now - the soviet empire only lasted for 44 years after WW2, and their regime, while disgusting, wasn't half as oppressive as the Nazis would have been. Perhaps you might enlighten me as to what you think would have happened had opposition to the Nazis been purely non-violent, instead of merely ridiculing my thoughts. What do you think would have happened? And to answer your question, I don't know how many people died as a result of Soviet oppression, but I suppose with Stalin's purges it must be tens of millions. However, I don't understand the point you're making with this, perhaps you might explain? Are you suggesting the west should have attacked and invaded the Soviet Union? I'm not convinced of the correctness of the 'humans by their very nature are confrontational' statement, but even if I were to accept it as true, I could never accept a substitution of 'confrontational' for 'violent' which is what's required to support the pro-war argument, as I don't believe people are violent by nature at all. In fact I strongly disagree. Violence toward other humans is a copied behaviour. If it were "natural", that is, if it were an inherited, in-built behaviour, we would be anti-social, not social animals. As for "rolling over", this is a common argument used to portray pacifists as weak, or cowardly etc. Be assured, you don't have to be violent to be strong. That macho interpretation of manliness is of the past. Resisting without violence is a much harder thing to do than lashing out. "Neutral, not neutered!" is a slogan used by internationalists. It sums up my position very well. Speaking up against the tide, while everyone around you is going the opposite way is not easy. Placing a building in the cross-hairs of your missile system, repeating to yourself that those within deserve to die, and then pressing the button is. Unlike how its portrayed by Hollywood, the reality of war is one of moral cowardice and cruelty, not courage and glory - that is a myth perpetuated by the victor to justify their inhumanity. As for choosing to fight rather than not, that of course is your entitlement, and its not for me to criticise anyone willing to lay down their life for a just cause. But the one glaring reality of war that all advocates of violence can't properly address is what the American military have renamed "collateral damage". In WW2, the vast majority of victims were non-combatants. It's inevitable in war that civilians will die. Just because it's not intended doesn't mean it's excusable. In my opinion, it's still murder (or 'manslaughter'). I must admit that under the circumstances many people found themselves in during the 40's, I too would probably have taken up arms, but that still doesn't make it right. I'm not sure what point you were making with the "any semblance of society" statement, but you seem to be implying that war and society are interdependent, is that right? I don't agree with that either. They are opposites - violence and society. And I believe it will change, it's only a matter of how long it takes. A day will come, I don't know when, unfortunately probably centuries away (even millennia), and probably only after millions more have been slaughtered, when the majority of people in this country, and eventually in every country on the planet, will reject violence as a method of resolving conflict. Just as flat-earthers, religious fundamentalists, Nazis, and countless other failed philosophies are now seen as backward and of a different era by most people, so too will those who advocate violence be consigned to a minority, and eventually the past. That is my belief, and unlike your view of the world, it is a view of hope, not hate. It's a view of progress, not inevitable human suffering, and if only for that reason, is more worthwhile philosophy. And no Niall, I never suggested it would have been grand, I was just pointing out that refusing to take up arms does not mean annihilation. The wonderful truth is that in the end, all Tyranny dies. Its always a matter of when, not if. Your suggestion that as a Pacifist, I would allow people to be marched off to their deaths is false. You also imply that the protection of Jews, Gypsies, Communists etc was a moral justification for the war, but the reality is very few cared what was happening in Auschwitz and elsewhere at the time. The reasons the various countries entered the war against Germany were primarily to do with self-interest and self-defence, it was only after the war that the Holocaust became the main justification. One of many examples of this is how the British had ample opportunity to bomb Auschwitz, having been told by numerous escapees and informants of its existence and even having identified it through aerial reconnaissance, but instead, under the authority of the great hero 'Bomber' Harris chose to repeatedly attack Dresden, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, while ignoring the death camps, as they were not deemed important enough, militarily, to divert resources from other targets. The emancipation of the few survivors of these death camps by allied troops was a fortunate consequence of military intervention but was never a driving factor. History has been rewritten by the victors to cloud this fact. In WW2, none of the major players really cared what was happening to these minorities, so to suggest they went to war to protect them is false, misleading, and simply untrue. So no, you cannot hold up military aggression in WW2 as the great saviour of the weak, and then attack pacifists as some kind of lackeys to Nazism is a poor excuse for valid argument. As for the notion that I might 'rest easy' on my 'moral high ground', the truth is the opposite. While the 'just war' brigade can about their daily business blissfully unaware of the awful suffering their support of belligerents brings down on voiceless, nameless and powerless people throughout the globe, it's the fate of the pacifist to be constantly bombarded with movies, music, prose, and news advocating and glorifying war. The WW2 argument is the most difficult to address as a pacifist as its probably the nearest thing to a justifiable war as there ever has been, but as demonstrated by the British Air Force's cold indifference to the suffering of civilians, and many other examples, including the use of atomic weapons on civilian targets in Japan (they could have dropped it on Mt Fuji, or in the sea, and made it clear the next would be in Tokyo), this notion that most people have been indoctrinated with, through movies and and other methods, that it was a battle between the good guys and the bad guys is ridiculous. To me, just like every other war, it was a battle between bad guys and worse guys, or in relation to the Nazis, bad guys v the worst guys ever. The victors were not good guys, they only seem that way relative to what they were fighting. Contrary to what you may believe, the enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend. And yes Danny, USA, USA, USA. Without them we would not have modern society as we know it. But that doesn't mean I should support their government as they attempt to bomb their way to world domination. Peace. Oh God, I really need a job. Giz a job?"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    hinault wrote: »
    You stated that Gunsche and Linge were on record expressing views opposing the invasion of Poland!
    Perhaps you meant Russia??

    I think we have crossed wires here.
    I stated that Gunsche/Linge reiterated Goering's opposition - not their own.
    Nobody would care what their views were, I would think, other than out of curiosity.
    Goering's views, as Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe and later ReichsMarschall were very important for obvious reasons.

    If I conveyed it as Gunsche/Linge expressing their views, then I apologise, that was unintended.
    I still take issue that either Gunsche or Linge would have been privy to the views of Goering or anyone else in the German high command.
    They would have perhaps heard snatches of conversations while carrying out their duties but they certainly wouldn't have been privy to the full blown discussions and debates concerning strategy.

    The German High command was not the well oiled machine we are led to believe through propaganda. It was more like different departments competing with each other & a lot of petty squabbling.

    You wouldn't need to have access to an entire strategic discussion to know of such opposition. There are numerous examples of the squabbling between Hitler and his VIPs emerging.
    Also, later in the war, especially at Wolfsschanze, they frequently were present at these discussions or within earshot at least, for security reasons.
    For example, Gunsche was present during the 20th of July Assassination attempt.
    Also the fact that their views were recorded for a book commissioned specially for Stalin while in captivity devalues the merit of those views I would contend.
    Stalin was obsessed with Hitler and NKVD would have gone to great lengths to ensure the narrative of what he wanted to hear complied with the views expressed by Gunsche and Linge.

    I don't disagree with you here, but I don't understand why it would make sense for the aides or the NKVD to portray Goering as a reluctant participant.
    That's not what Stalin wanted to hear.

    If the NKVD were weighing in on this point, then it would be to change the perception of Goering from a cautious aggressor to a bloody thirsty warmonger, not vice versa.

    Besides, Goering's fall from grace is recorded in numerous sources. Read the Speer book when you have a chance.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    EggsAckley wrote: »
    OP - Reading George Orwell is one of the reasons I am not a pacifist. Here is his review of Mein Kampf which I believe gives a reasonable picture of Eurasia had Hitler won and passive resistance would only have facilitated his plans

    http://www.wikilivres.info/wiki/Review_of_Mein_Kampf_by_Adolf_Hitler

    Fantastic piece of writing, thanks for sharing.

    The only part I disagree with is this:
    Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all “progressive” thought, has assumed tacitly that human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain. In such a view of life there is no room, for instance, for patriotism and the military virtues. The Socialist who finds his children playing with soldiers is usually upset, but he is never able to think of a substitute for the tin soldiers; tin pacifists somehow won’t do. Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades.

    I believe the struggle and self sacrifice is simply a means to attaining the 'ideal' (or better at least) system, not solely for the want of flags and patriotism (f+P)
    If Capitalism were so successful, most people would forget their (f+p), as the last 12 years have shown.

    It's only when the system fails and people feel helpless, that they again turn to the struggle and self sacrifice, to try and achieve the ideal system.


    My girlfriend's grandmother is from Smolensk, she was orphaned by Army Group Centre and literally lived right through this history, has lived in Lithuania since the 60s, went to Cuba during the 70s, has family album photos with Fidel!, the works - so I have had numerous conversations with her on these topics as I find it fascinating.

    I've asked her for her opinion on Communism vs. Capitalism, which did she prefer.
    She said Communism, without a moment's thought.

    I asked her how was she so sure:
    She said "During the communist times, there wasn't much choice, there wasn't much to buy, but you could still mostly buy what you wanted, more importantly you had everything you needed."
    "Then Capitalism came, there is plenty of choice in the shops but nobody has money for the simple necessities, not to mind these luxuries".

    I'm not for a moment suggesting Communism is superior to Capitalism, or vice-versa.
    I just think the mentality is important.
    Most Humans don't go to war or go revolutionary just because they like war or revolution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I think we have crossed wires here.
    I stated that Gunsche/Linge reiterated Goering's opposition - not their own.
    Nobody would care what their views were, I would think, other than out of curiosity.
    Goering's views, as Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe and later ReichsMarschall were very important for obvious reasons.

    If I conveyed it as Gunsche/Linge expressing their views, then I apologise, that was unintended.



    The German High command was not the well oiled machine we are led to believe through propaganda. It was more like different departments competing with each other & a lot of petty squabbling.

    You wouldn't need to have access to an entire strategic discussion to know of such opposition. There are numerous examples of the squabbling between Hitler and his VIPs emerging.
    Also, later in the war, especially at Wolfsschanze, they frequently were present at these discussions or within earshot at least, for security reasons.
    For example, Gunsche was present during the 20th of July Assassination attempt.



    I don't disagree with you here, but I don't understand why it would make sense for the aides or the NKVD to portray Goering as a reluctant participant.
    That's not what Stalin wanted to hear.

    If the NKVD were weighing in on this point, then it would be to change the perception of Goering from a cautious aggressor to a bloody thirsty warmonger, not vice versa.

    Besides, Goering's fall from grace is recorded in numerous sources. Read the Speer book when you have a chance.

    I think your wires are certainly crossed.
    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Good post.
    It's worth noting that Guensche & Linge among others are on record as stating that Goering and a few others on the cabinet were opposed to the invasion of Poland as they felt Germany was insufficiently armed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    hinault wrote: »
    I think your wires are certainly crossed.

    I'm still confused.

    In plain English, here is what I am saying:
    Guensche & Linge are recorded as saying, that Goering and a few others on the cabinet were opposed to the invasion of Poland, in Nineteen Thirty-Nine, because they felt Germany was insufficiently armed.

    I've made no mention of Guensche or Linge giving their own particular stance.


    You are going to have to explain more clearly where you disagree with this statement because I cannot understand the point you are trying to make.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I'm still confused.

    In plain English, here is what I am saying:
    Guensche & Linge are recorded as saying, that Goering and a few others on the cabinet were opposed to the invasion of Poland, in Nineteen Thirty-Nine, because they felt Germany was insufficiently armed.

    I've made no mention of Guensche or Linge giving their own particular stance.

    You are going to have to explain more clearly where you disagree with this statement because I cannot understand the point you are trying to make.

    The invasion of Poland was endorsed fully by the German political high command.
    Hitler, Hess, Goering and co all advocated the invasion.

    I would contend that there was far more ambivalence in the German political high command for the invasion of Russia.
    We know that Goering's star had fallen after the failure (from a German perspective) of the Battle of Britain, as plans for the
    invasion of Russia were being formulated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭DoubleBogey


    I don't know about passive resistance, but who knows what the world would be like today if countries had simply accepted their assimilation. I have no doubt there were many people within the occupied countries who simply accepted it. At some stage there would be no more war to fight. A couple of generations later and who is to say the world wouldn't be a better place?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    hinault wrote: »
    The invasion of Poland was endorsed fully by the German political high command.
    Hitler, Hess, Goering and co all advocated the invasion.

    Have you any evidence of this?

    I'm assuming you don't know who Birger Dahlerus is then?
    David Maxwell Fyfe?
    The Pact of Steel?

    All I can suggest is that you bin whatever Goering biography you have been reading and to purchase a good copy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I don't know about passive resistance, but who knows what the world would be like today if countries had simply accepted their assimilation. I have no doubt there were many people within the occupied countries who simply accepted it. At some stage there would be no more war to fight. A couple of generations later and who is to say the world wouldn't be a better place?

    It was a racist genocidal regime, not some benevolent dictatorship.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    anymore wrote: »
    It was Germany which articulated the notion of 'Total War ' during the second world war..
    ( Yes I know the idea had been around for quite a while).

    But that wasn't until early 1943, several years after the invasion of Poland in September 1939. So it's not really a valid point to use the concept of 'total war' as indicative that Germany wanted war when talking about the outbreak of the second world war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭DoubleBogey


    Nodin wrote: »
    It was a racist genocidal regime, not some benevolent dictatorship.
    Yes I know what the Nazis were. I'm simply posing another hypothetical question to a hypothetical discussion. The persona of them being evil incarnated would not exist today had they won. The fact that they were a racist genocidal regime does not necessarily mean the world would be an evil place today . And history is written by the victorious, so we'd not only be speaking in German but we'd be speaking about the Nazis in a different tongue also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Yes I know what the Nazis were. I'm simply posing another hypothetical question to a hypothetical discussion. The persona of them being evil incarnated would not exist today had they won. The fact that they were a racist genocidal regime does not necessarily mean the world would be an evil place today.....

    Given the impact on Africa of less genocidal racist regimes, I think it fair to say there would be a grim outcome indeed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Moved to the WW2 forum from Politics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭DoubleBogey


    Nodin wrote: »
    Given the impact on Africa of less genocidal racist regimes, I think it fair to say there would be a grim outcome indeed.
    They weren't genocidal to the overall population. What I mean is they didn't go into France and kill all French people. I'm open to correction here but didn't the holocaust only come to light at the end of the war or maybe even after the war? Certainly from discussions with my grandparents, the nazis were seen at the time as a formidible enemy rather than the evil entity they are today.

    A friend has pointed me in the direction of a book called Fatherland by Robert Harris. Set in an alternative reality where the Nazis won the war. Seems to be more of a thriller/mystery book rather than concentrating on what the world would be like. I wonder if the author has depicted a world full of Nazi evilness or is it just seen as another superpower (don't tell me, I might read it!)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    ... instead came out with the view that if everyone in occupied countries 'passively resisted' the occupation, eventually the regime would fall apart.

    Can we translate the 'Eventually' part of this theory into a rough timeframe ?

    10 yrs, 25yrs, 4 generations ?

    This theory is based on the assumption that people in Germany or German occuppied countries would be permitted to passively resist.

    Those in Soviet occuppied countries were not permitted to passively resist so I am equally curious how it would have worked out in their case.

    Anyone interfering with the war effort (German or Soviet) was liable to find themselves in a camp/gulag.

    To the best of my knowledge German civilians even ended up in camps for not saluting when walking past the feldernhalle monument, Russian workers late 3 times to work could find themselves in a gulag, so I am curious what form this 'passive resistance' would take and how effective it would be and what would be the consequences to the resister and their families.

    I think in terms of ww2 Germany/German occuppied territories, or in terms of the soviet empire ww2 and post ww2, passive resistance is non resistance.

    Morally, non resistance by civilians of either regime is understandable. It's easy to look back in judgement but in that context non resistance to either regime was a valid choice to make if they have families or if they believed it would be futile to waste your life for some trivial, essentially meaningless gesture.

    I think it's interesting that some countries have colourful views of the level of their wartime non-passive resistance. Essentially neither regime were resisted to an extent that undermined the war effort in a meaningful way.

    The closest may have been France for a very short period post D-day in the delay of the Das Reich's northward march, or in Finland/Russia in terms of communist /partisan bands operating behind the lines who did as much damage to the local population as they did to the Germans/Finns. The Germans also had a lot of men tied down in Slovenia but again not on a scale that hampered the war effort to a great extent (not forgetting of course the Warsaw rising).

    So given the limitations of non-passive resistance by civiians it's hard to see where exactly passive resistance would have gotten anyone except entry to a camp/gulag.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭baalthor


    Mickjg wrote: »
    The people in the east of Slavic origin were to be enslaved. Those who weren't enslaved would be exterminated. .

    During the war many Slavic groups fought on the German side and weren't enslaved. Slovaks, Croats, Bosnian Muslims being the most prominent examples.
    Going by "racial theory" alone you might have expected Hitler to favour the more industrially advanced Czechs over the more rural Slovaks. But the Slovaks were given their own state to run themselves so long as they co-operated with the German war effort and aims.
    And they were mostly happy to do so since they were no longer under the dominance of the Czechs. Meanhile the Czech area was incorporated into Germany with some Czechs to be "germanised" while others were deemed to be racially inferior.

    After the war Czechoslovakia was reconstituted but the Slovaks left and recreated Slovakia as soon as the Soviet system collapsed. At that time some people expressed surprise since Slovakia was still poorer and less economically developed than the Czech Republic, its capital a former small provincial city in contrast to the glamorous world city of Prague.

    So the "favoured" Slavs seem to correspond very closely with the countries or regions that co-operated with the Germans while the "inferior" Slavs were mostly countries that opposed the Germans or favoured the Russians or British.

    Somewhere on the internet I saw a pamphlet produced by the US Govt during WWII that attempted to explain the difference between the Chinese and the Japanese. At that time a lot of Americans thought that all those "Orientals" were much the same. The pamphlet sought to re-educate them.
    Starting with the Chinese, it featured a picture of a studious looking bespectacled young man. The caption explained that the average Chinese was friendly and hardworking but maybe a bit too pacific for his own good.

    Meanhile the typical Japanese shown was scowling and beetle-browed with very obvious menacing slanted eyes. And the captioned expained that this reflected his character as an agressive fanatic out to slit your throat as soon as he got a chance.

    After the war of course there was a change, the ChiCom, as the Chinese was now called was a ruthless brain-washed automaton bent on world domination while we must try our best to emulate the hard working Japanese and practise his martial arts and sing songs on his karaoke machine (except maybe for a bit of a wobble in the late 80s when we viewed him for a while though the beady eyes of Michael Douglas)

    And in India the British didn't consider Indians to be equal to whites but they ended up favoring some groups which they referred to as "Martial races" . These were the groups who could most be relied on to fight on behalf of the British, the Sihks and Gurkhas being well know examples. Indeed the Gurkhas are still fulfiling the role.

    So the Germans, British and Americans were all prepared to modify their racial classification system when it suited them to do so. And as some-one else pointed out millions of people from "superior" countries like France were forced to labour in Germany during the war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Morlar wrote: »
    Can we translate the 'Eventually' part of this theory into a rough timeframe ?

    10 yrs, 25yrs, 4 generations ?

    "In the case of the Nazis, occupying and controlling Europe for any meaningful length of time would have proved impossible. Had every citizen of every country they invaded passively resisted their occupation, their empire would certainly have collapsed in no more than two decades, and probably a lot sooner. I'd suggest they would have had to withdraw from most of the occupied countries within a decade, installing puppet regimes before they left. The puppet regimes would eventually have been overthrown by popular opposition, and the Nazi regime would as a consequence, have eventually collapsed."

    I cant really answer that on his behalf, although I think there would have been a well established colony set up in Russia and German military might and technology might have grown to monstrous proportions. As well as that, I'd say they would have exterminated an awful lot more people.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement