Next Step for ANPR

Seperate

Got a letter this morning from my broker telling me to declare all fleet/trade vehicles on a new government website. These registration numbers will then be uploaded to the ANPR system so that Gardai can identify uninsured drivers.

I can only assume the private motor policies will be handed over by the insurance companies themselves.

Good step forward. There's alot of things that annoy me on the roads, but uninsured drivers should be locked up. This should stop people paying the deposit for a policy, letting it lapse but still driving around with the disc and getting away with it.

Cookie_Monster

*awaits RTDH proclaiming an end to freedom


I agree with this also, good idea and about time.

Fey!

Good stuff.

If the Gardai catch more uninsured drivers as a result of this, does that mean that our insurance premiums should start to drop?

I think R.O.R. mentioned this recently. So will traders have to add all their stock onto this ?

R.O.R

Posted about this a couple of weeks ago - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72681182

Still don't really know if it's our responsibility or the customer's responsibility to update it.

Communication about it has been very poor. Everything needs to be uploaded by the 30th June.

I agree it's a good idea.

Seperate

Didn't see that thread, my bad

@RoverJames - the leaflet says that you need to add vehicles which will be in your care for 5 days or more, so I would assume that traders will need to add their stock. That said, if they're sitting on a forecourt, the ANPR won't pick them up.

@ROR - The leaflet I got says any vehicle that is owned by you or in your custody and control.

Cuddlesworth

Fey! wrote: »

Good stuff.

If the Gardai catch more uninsured drivers as a result of this, does that mean that our insurance premiums should start to drop?

Not for a long time. Actuary models are based off long term averages.

R.O.R

Seperate wrote: »

@ROR - The leaflet I got says any vehicle that is owned by you or in your custody and control.

We "own" thousands of vehicles, but only have 3 of our own company cars.

Started trying to add customer cars to the NFD last week and it was a nightmare. Have to register as a user, then get the customers to nominate you are their broker to be able to add their fleets.

Cookie_Monster

Seperate wrote: »

@RoverJames - the leaflet says that you need to add vehicles which will be in your care for 5 days or more, so I would assume that traders will need to add their stock. That said, if they're sitting on a forecourt, the ANPR won't pick them up.

should at least flag if the plates are cloned from a car parked up in a garage

R.O.R wrote: »

We "own" thousands of vehicles, but only have 3 of our own company cars.

Started trying to add customer cars to the NFD last week and it was a nightmare. Have to register as a user, then get the customers to nominate you are their broker to be able to add their fleets.

sounds like a right nightmare

knifey_spoonie

AFAIK its the on the back of the the policy holder, so if ye are the policy holder then you must do it, if they are the policy holder they must do it. Ill be just running a weekly spreadsheet with reg numbers, change it to a csv file and upload it once a week,

PCPhoto

only problem is it doesn't really stop those that drive uninsured.... they will still get behind the wheel and drive ...it just increases their chance of getting caught.

Similarly the licence plate readers attached to "some" garda cars allow the gardai to access all this information while the vehicle is behind the garda car - I have never heard of anyone being pulled over as a result of using these machines, I have been told by a source that gardai turn down the volume because the machine beeps constantly due to no tax/no insurance/etc etc - I don't know how accurate the information is but is normally a reliable source of information.... the gardai have enough of a job to do without this, its hard enough for them to tackle the criminals that are in this country without going after those who are unlikely to fight back.

In one way I agree that something must be done to stop uninsured drivers on the roads, but on another way I think the gardai are possibly targetting struggling families who might be trying to cut corners because of financial restraints - why don't they look at insurance premia (premiums), or the companies who choose how much of a risk a driver is, if insurance was a reasonable price people would pay it,

I pay approx 500ish for commercial insurance, I have 6yrs no claims bonus and I'm 32yrs old, I think I'm overpaying and should only have a premium of maybe €200-€250, insurance of all kinds in this country is a bit of a scam (oh dear !! I sound like a conspiracy theorist) - if I get rear ended - no fault of my own, I'm punished by insurance companies, all of them,

my GF recently had her house insurance premium increased and she's now tied to one company because her pipes froze then burst and flooded the house - it was not her fault, nothing could have prevented it, pipes were properly lagged, unfortunately temperatures got super low last year and sh1t happens. ....but because there is a claim, she has to pay approx an extra 1K a year on previous years and she cant change companies because she has claimed in the last few years (companies wont give a quote)

Seperate

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

AFAIK its the on the back of the the policy holder, so if ye are the policy holder then you must do it, if they are the policy holder they must do it. Ill be just running a weekly spreadsheet with reg numbers, change it to a csv file and upload it once a week,

I'd say this is the case alright.

Will be a bit of headache for ROR if not...!

Atomic Pineapple

PCPhoto wrote: »

In one way I agree that something must be done to stop uninsured drivers on the roads, but on another way I think the gardai are possibly targetting struggling families who might be trying to cut corners because of financial restraints - why don't they look at insurance premia (premiums), or the companies who choose how much of a risk a driver is, if insurance was a reasonable price people would pay it,

If we didn't have to pay for immature uninsured drivers then insurance premiums would be more reasonable. Your post is very short sighted.

Seperate

PCPhoto wrote: »

Similarly the licence plate readers attached to "some" garda cars allow the gardai to access all this information while the vehicle is behind the garda car - I have never heard of anyone being pulled over as a result of using these machines, I have been told by a source that gardai turn down the volume because the machine beeps constantly due to no tax/no insurance/etc etc - I don't know how accurate the information is but is normally a reliable source of information.... the gardai have enough of a job to do without this, its hard enough for them to tackle the criminals that are in this country without going after those who are unlikely to fight back.

It can detect cars in front, behind both on their side of the road, and the other. They are highly sophisticated machines. The whole idea of the Gardai turning the volume down is a myth. If they are on the way to an urgent call, they may disregard the notices, but if they are on patrol, they will pull over and deal with it.

The Traffic Corps (the part of the force which has these cameras) don't have 'enough of a job to do without this' - infact, this makes their job alot easier. It will decrease the need for them to stand in the middle of the road to catch people who don't pay their road tax or insurance.

I genuinely believe that driving uninsured should carry a mandatory 14 day jail sentence. Nobody would think about doing it - anyone that does should probably be in jail anyway.

Max Power1

No excuses for driving un-insured. I am firmly pro any measure that catches people that do this.

Our man in Havana

This will only be as good as the information in the database. How often is it going to be updated? Weekly, monthly? The current system is only updated when someone submits insurance details to obtain motor tax. Even that can be grossly out of date and highly inaccurate.

Max Power1

Our man in Havana wrote: »

This will only be as good as the information in the database. How often is it going to be updated? Weekly, monthly? The current system is only updated when someone submits insurance details to obtain motor tax. Even that can be grossly out of date and highly inaccurate.

Well whats the consequences of a false positive? You need to produce insurance at a station within 10 days? Shouldnt be a bother if you have it.

I know I'd have no problem doing this the odd time if it meant that there was less risk of being hit by an unisured driver.

Our man in Havana

What we don't want is the carry on in the UK. "Computer says NO!" car towed away despite having the cert in your hand. Policeman unwilling to listen, computer is never wrong your walking home. Seen it too many times on those cop shows.

kirving

I agree, it should be checked out properly before making someone walk 20 miles. But to be fair, the computer is NEVER wrong.

Seperate

Our man in Havana wrote: »

What we don't want is the carry on in the UK. "Computer says NO!" car towed away despite having the cert in your hand. Policeman unwilling to listen, computer is never wrong your walking home. Seen it too many times on those cop shows.

As per my original post, alot of scumbags are paying Quinn (or whoever) the €200 deposit to get their disc and cert, then letting the policy lapse by not paying the monthly installments. They're uninsured, but they have a disc and cert. This should cut that all out.

I agree that they need to be 100% positive you're uninsured, but a quick phonecall to the insurance company shouldn't be too much trouble.

Guy:Incognito

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

*awaits RTDH proclaiming an end to freedom

.

Sure we all lost our freedom ages ago. Did you not read his thread from aout 18 months ago when the ganagland laws were passed. We're all living in concentration camps right now.:)

Our man in Havana

Seperate wrote: »

As per my original post, alot of scumbags are paying Quinn (or whoever) the €200 deposit to get their disc and cert, then letting the policy lapse by not paying the monthly installments. They're uninsured, but they have a disc and cert. This should cut that all out.

I agree that they need to be 100% positive you're uninsured, but a quick phonecall to the insurance company shouldn't be too much trouble.

The problems arise if you are stopped outside of office hours. You can't phone Quinns at 5 on a Sunday morning to check cover. So what was happening was they would take the car anyways and let you sort out the mess Monday morning. You still had to pay the tow fee even if you could prove you were insured at the material time.

Guy:Incognito

PCPhoto wrote: »

only problem is it doesn't really stop those that drive uninsured.... they will still get behind the wheel and drive ...it just increases their chance of getting caught.

Thats all that they can do though. You cant stop people that really want to break the law. The best you can do is keep reducing the chances of them getting away with it as much as possible.

PCPhoto wrote: »

Similarly the licence plate readers attached to "some" garda cars allow the gardai to access all this information while the vehicle is behind the garda car - I have never heard of anyone being pulled over as a result of using these machines,.

I was. A Garda car went passed me going the opposite direction, turn around up the road and came back down to pull me in. I was in my van that I was just putting back on the road after a couple of months lying up when my hand being in a cast conveniently coincided with my tax running out.

PCPhoto wrote: »

possibly targetting struggling families who might be trying to cut corners because of financial restraints

Thats a load of balls. Theres no excuse for driving uninsured. If you cant afford the insurance, or anything else you need to legally drive your car, then dont. I'd say there are plenty of people crying that they cant afford insurance and need their car when they probably commute less than 10 miles to work or "have" to drive the kids to school 2 miles down the road. Walkign or cycling wouldnt kill these people.
I'm sure there are plenty of people with long commutes too but the law cant be that you cant drive without insurane, unless its inconvenient for you.

-Chris-

Seperate wrote: »

Our man in Havana wrote: »

What we don't want is the carry on in the UK. "Computer says NO!" car towed away despite having the cert in your hand. Policeman unwilling to listen, computer is never wrong your walking home. Seen it too many times on those cop shows.

As per my original post, alot of scumbags are paying Quinn (or whoever) the €200 deposit to get their disc and cert, then letting the policy lapse by not paying the monthly installments. They're uninsured, but they have a disc and cert. This should cut that all out.

I agree that they need to be 100% positive you're uninsured, but a quick phonecall to the insurance company shouldn't be too much trouble.

You'd think the first step would be to require the insurance companies to notify any policy lapses or cancellations.

Our man in Havana

-Chris- wrote: »

You'd think the first step would be to require the insurance companies to notify any policy lapses or cancellations.

If the information is not updated in a timely manner the whole thing will fall down fairly fast.

Max Power1

Our man in Havana wrote: »

What we don't want is the carry on in the UK. "Computer says NO!" car towed away despite having the cert in your hand. Policeman unwilling to listen, computer is never wrong your walking home. Seen it too many times on those cop shows.

There was an episode of the BBC Watchdog about this. Apparently they confiscate your car rather than allow you produce.

I'm vehemently against driving uninsured and believe that those who do are to be punished to the fullest extent of the law - however the UK system is too much and doesnt allow for manual verification or exceptions (eg during renewals)

R.O.R

Max Power1 wrote: »

There was an episode of the BBC Watchdog about this. Apparently they confiscate your car rather than allow you produce.

I'm vehemently against driving uninsured and believe that those who do are to be punished to the fullest extent of the law - however the UK system is too much and doesnt allow for manual verification or exceptions (eg during renewals)

Won't be like that for much longer - new SORN for Insurance comes in to effect 27th June

[Quote=BBC NEWS 20 June 2011 Last updated at 07:32 GMT
]More restrictive car insurance rules have come into effect as the government seeks to clamp down on uninsured drivers.

From Monday, drivers will need to declare their car as being off the road if they want to avoid buying insurance.

Previously, offenders had to be caught in the act of driving without insurance to be prosecuted.

Registered drivers who are found to be uninsured will be sent a warning letter, followed by a £100 penalty.

If a car still remains uninsured, it can be clamped, or seized and destroyed, or the owner could be taken to court and given a fine of up to £1,000.

Enforcement action is expected to commence from mid-July[/quote]

Our man in Havana

The UK has become a police state.

Guy:Incognito

Max Power1 wrote: »

There was an episode of the BBC Watchdog about this. Apparently they confiscate your car rather than allow you produce.

Any of the police camera shows I've watched they do their best to contact the insurance company to confirm if the car is insured or not.

Our man in Havana

do their best

At 5am? I doubt it.

Guy:Incognito

Our man in Havana wrote: »

At 5am? I doubt it.

If the insurance company was open, yes.Obviously if its closed "boing their best" wont include ringing the insurance company. They are still doing their best to help though.

They often let the person head off home to get the cert.

Cill Dara Abu

Seperate wrote: »

It can detect cars in front, behind both on their side of the road, and the other. They are highly sophisticated machines. The whole idea of the Gardai turning the volume down is a myth. If they are on the way to an urgent call, they may disregard the notices, but if they are on patrol, they will pull over and deal with it.

The Traffic Corps (the part of the force which has these cameras) don't have 'enough of a job to do without this' - infact, this makes their job alot easier. It will decrease the need for them to stand in the middle of the road to catch people who don't pay their road tax or insurance.

I genuinely believe that driving uninsured should carry a mandatory 14 day jail sentence. Nobody would think about doing it - anyone that does should probably be in jail anyway.

And why do'nt we give the people with no license the death penalty

Get real will you :rolleyes:

Gophur

R.O.R wrote: »

Posted about this a couple of weeks ago - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72681182

Still don't really know if it's our responsibility or the customer's responsibility to update it.

......

Definitely yours!!!!!!

Max Power1

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

And why do'nt we give the people with no license the death penalty

Get real will you :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

I need to make my post more obstructive, so heres a few rolleyes for you :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Driving uninsured is a serious offence, and one that costs fellow motorists in both added premia and also the risk of having to wait years for a payout from the uninsured driver fund in the event of an accident.

I'd fully support a mandatory jail term or at best a steep fine. Theres no excuse for it, if you cant afford insurance then get off the road.

Guy:Incognito

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

And why do'nt we give the people with no license the death penalty

Get real will you :rolleyes:

You made a leap from a kick in the arse stint in lock up to the death penalty for a motoring offence and your telling him to get real and rollign your eyes?

Seperate

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

And why do'nt we give the people with no license the death penalty

Get real will you :rolleyes:

I am... real.

I used to work in the claims department in an insurance company a few years ago and saw first hand the hardship and hassle that uninsured drivers cause. If I've worked hard all my life to buy a nice car, I don't want some little scrote in his dirtbox writing off my nice car and having absolutely no come back. It's just not on.

A mandatory jail would stop people even thinking about doing it. That's the point. If they go ahead and do it anyway, then like I said, they should be in jail anyway for everyones sake.

There's no excuse for people driving uninsured. If you can't afford to own a car, then don't. It's a privilege, not a right.

mb1725

The ANPR cameras in the US are very good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA5Gy32aqdo

slinky2000

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The UK has become a police state.

And whats the problem? If you drive uninsured then you deserve to get your car taken off you.

The UK always ring the insurance company and check the DVLA insurance database if you can't produce any evidence.

If its not on it then your not insured. Simples.

Daegerty

What a load of ****e. ANPR is just an invasion of privacy.

slinky2000

Daegerty wrote: »

What a load of ****e. ANPR is just an invasion of privacy.

Explain that.

Daegerty

slinky2000 wrote: »

Explain that.

they can't just tell if you have insurance but also where you are at certain times. if the government knows that it gets very easy to abuse and also to make new laws or enforce ones that are presently unenforceable. down with this sort of thing / yet more big brother

Eric Cartman

Daegerty wrote: »

What a load of ****e. ANPR is just an invasion of privacy.

so are checkpoints too by the same logic, ANPR means less checkpoints , which I welcome, if the gards want to drive by me instead of slowing me down on my way home and bothering me then thats fine by me

Guy:Incognito

Daegerty wrote: »

they can't just tell if you have insurance but also where you are at certain times. if the government knows that it gets very easy to abuse and also to make new laws or enforce ones that are presently unenforceable. down with this sort of thing / yet more big brother

Does it not hurt your head to live in fear of everything?

slinky2000

More chance of an alibi if something goes down which I didn't do :P

Eric Cartman

Daegerty wrote: »

they can't just tell if you have insurance but also where you are at certain times. if the government knows that it gets very easy to abuse and also to make new laws or enforce ones that are presently unenforceable. down with this sort of thing / yet more big brother

the databases are loaded one way with the garda system, its not currently equipped for 2 way comms or surveilance, if it ever does go that way, I will rant and rave about it , currently the system just opperates by

recognise reg plate - > check database - > if the cars ok just forget you saw it , if not alert the gard

Saab Ed

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the databases are loaded one way with the garda system, its not currently equipped for 2 way comms or surveilance, if it ever does go that way, I will rant and rave about it , currently the system just opperates by

recognise reg plate - > check database - > if the cars ok just forget you saw it , if not alert the gard

But all that info is stored for good while after it was first logged. I have a major problem with that in the same way i'd have a problem if I was forced to wear a tag and be scanned every where I went.

Maybe in a perfect world with a perfect system using perfect people it would work but that's not the case here in Ireland. Our Police force has a chequered history to say the least over the past few years ( Donegal/Dublin Protests/Shell to sea ). To remove the burden of the individual Gaurd to prove a crime is being/has been commited and put it into the hands of an unaswerable computer is just nuts IMO.

Sorry but I aint guilty of anything, dont treat me as so. To do otehrwise is a total surrender and errosion of our privacy and God knows we've bent over backwards the last decade to tick that box

Ed.

slinky2000

It's no different that getting topped at a checkpoint and them checking your insurance etc. It'll just be more often now.

Our man in Havana

The UK always ring the insurance company and check the DVLA insurance database if you can't produce any evidence.

Not always. Try 5am on a Sunday morning for example.

If its not on it then your not insured. Simples.

It ain't that simples. Many UK police think it is infallible but they have made some big errors in the past.

Eric Cartman

Saab Ed wrote: »

But all that info is stored for good while after it was first logged. I have a major problem with that in the same way i'd have a problem if I was forced to wear a tag and be scanned every where I went.

Maybe in a perfect world with a perfect system using perfect people it would work but that's not the case here in Ireland. Our Police force has a chequered history to say the least over the past few years ( Donegal/Dublin Protests/Shell to sea ). To remove the burden of the individual Gaurd to prove a crime is being/has been commited and put it into the hands of an unaswerable computer is just nuts IMO.

Sorry but I aint guilty of anything, dont treat me as so. To do otehrwise is a total surrender and errosion of our privacy and God knows we've bent over backwards the last decade to tick that box

Ed.

the system is provided by a company called cleartone in the UK , their system reads the vehicle database off an mdb or csv file on a memory card, the system does not have any GSM unit to transmit data and it only stores a predefined amount of reg plates in its 'recent history' so even if they scan your plate, 100 or so cars later your forgotten about unless youve no tax/insurance

Our man in Havana

How often is it going to be updated?

Seeing as temp transfers/substitutions are a national sport in Ireland I can see it causing problems.

Daegerty

slinky2000 wrote: »

More chance of an alibi if something goes down which I didn't do :P

More chance of them finding you as a suspect if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time