Penalty Points Advice? Appeal?

foghlu77

Hello,

Just today I was travelling home from work in Cork along the Tivoli dual carriageway. I was in the overtaking lane and doing 100kph, the garda corps were immediately behind me and sounded their siren. I pulled into the slow lane to let them pass, which they did and then made my way back into the fast lane. They then slowed right down and put on their hazards? I was confused and thought they had pulled someone ahead of them so decided to move back into the slow lane and continue. They then shot in front of me in the slow lane and pointed to pull in. Which I did.

The guard then approached my window and aked me for my licence. I gave it to him and he said did you not see the guy flashing his lights at you? I said No? He then continued to say that I nearly caused an accident when I went to pass him after he had stopped. I insisted that all cars behind him were confused and it was safe for me to do so? He disagreed and repeated the fact that I nearly caused an accident?

I looked at him puzzled and he said do you understand to which I replied No? He then again repeated the fact that I didn't look in my mirror when going to pass him otherwise I would have seen the guy flash. I didn't see anyone flash just a queue of cars behind me.

He then asked for my insurance certificates, I said I don't have them in the car to which he replied produce it at your local station within 10 days and have you any penalty points, I said no, have you ever been in trouble with the guards, I said no. He then gave me back my licence and said drive more carefully?

I'm only assuming that he wanted to overtake me originally and then when I moved back into the fast lane, he got annoyed and decided to do me?

I don't know whether or not I'll get points but if I do is there much point in appealing?

hey op, maybe the guard was tying to move you from the 'overtaking' lane?

if you moved into the left-hand lane to allow him to pass, then im assuming the left hand lane was clear?
then you moved straight back into the right-hand lane? and you did say there was a line of cars behind you, did you pull out in front of them? definately sounds like the guard thought you did, he did say someone 'flashed' you.

there is no such thing as a fast lane or slow lane. you drive on the left in this country, the right-hand lane is for overtaking.
maybe you were holding traffic up and the guard wanted you to drive on the left??

Paulw

Fast lane? What's that? There is no "fast lane" on Irish roads. There can be an over-taking lane. You pull in to it, overtake and then pull back in to the inside lane.

If he observed you just driving along in the outside lane, then that in itself is a trafficing offence.

You can appeal all you like, but it will be the word of the Garda against yours, and more often than not, the court will side with the Garda.

foghlu77

I think that he was getting me to move out of the overtaking lane and I did once he sounded his sirens but I needed to get back into the overtaking lane as I needed to get into it as it leads to a two lane roundabout which I needed to take and when he saw me go back in, I'm guessing this angered him however is it safe to come to a stop in an overtaking lane? Really?

Paulw

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Education/Road-safety-tips/Using-roundabouts/

So, you were turning right at the roundabout?

You should only have pulled in to the right turn lane when traffic starts to queue at the roundabout.

It sounds like you were driving in the overtaking lane, since you had time to drive in it, pull in, allow cars to pass and then pulled back out.

Again, it will be you versus the Garda, and will also depend on what you are charged with.

foghlu77

Surely I can be in the overtaking lane as long as I want when doing 100kph?

If he wanted me out of it fine but the way he engineered to pull me over by stopping in the overtaking lane in front of me and then blaming me for nearly causing an accident is wrong? I've been driving that route every day for 2 years and the only time I've nearly had an accident was in this instance!?

If he was going to give me points would he need to advise me there and then?

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

Surely I can be in the overtaking lane as long as I want when doing 100kph?

Facepalm!!!

Crazy that people don't know the rules of the road.

It's not called the 100kph lane it's called the OVERTAKING lane. You can only be in it when overtaking a slower moving vehicle. Then once you create a safe distance you pull back into the driving lane and stay there until overtaking another vehicle. In congested traffic conditions where both lanes are moving slowly you can also be in it.

The max speed limit is irrelevant to lane choice here

[EDIT] I cam see exactly why you were in trouble here. You were sauntering along in the overtaking lane, a Garda car comes along, gives you a fair warning to get your ass into the correct lane, you do so as you thought the Garda was using his siren to attend an emegemcy and not to warn you. Once you let the Garda passed you pulled back into the overtaking lane. The Garda seen you dint heed the warning and decided to stop you.

You deserve the points to be honest. Brush up on the ROTR and it will clear the confusion for you in mementoes like this

MagicMarker

foghlu77 wrote: »

Surely I can be in the overtaking lane as long as I want when doing 100kph?

No, it's an overtaking lane, not a ''sure I'll drive here as long as I want'' lane.

foghlu77

If the max speed limit is irrelevant, then why is there a large red and white sign that says speed limit 100 kph?

I don't remember anything in the rotr stating that the overtaking lane is a speed limitless lane?

foghlu77

@ magic marker as long as I'm overtaking traffic at 100kph, I'm sure I can be in this lane for as long as I want?

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

If the max speed limit is irrelevant, then why is there a large red and white sign that says speed limit 100 kph?

I don't remember anything in the rotr stating that the overtaking lane is a speed limitless lane?

Make sure you finish my quotes won't you... Max speed limit is irrelevant ... To lane choice!!!!!

I'm sure I also don't have to remind you that it is the responsibility of the Gardai to enforce road traffic laws including speeding and not yours

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

@ magic marker as long as I'm overtaking traffic at 100kph, I'm sure I can be in this lane for as long as I want?

As already pointed out, no you can't. The speed limit is irrelavant to correct driving lane usage. Brush up on the ROTR

foghlu77

How can the speed limit be irrelevant? You're saying I can drive e.g. 120kph in the overtaking lane even if the speed limit clearly signed says 100kph!?

touts

foghlu77 wrote: »

@ magic marker as long as I'm overtaking traffic at 100kph, I'm sure I can be in this lane for as long as I want?

You're digging yourself into a hole here. If you refuse to believe everyone else here then you need to go read the rules of the road before you go to the station with your insurance details because if you go in and argue with them that you are entitled to be in the lane as long as you want you will definately get points (if you have not already).

foghlu77

Does anyone know if he has to issue me the points there and then?

delonglad

foghlu77 wrote: »

If the max speed limit is irrelevant, then why is there a large red and white sign that says speed limit 100 kph?

I don't remember anything in the rotr stating that the overtaking lane is a speed limitless lane?

What are you talking about? I'm sorry OP but how long have you been driving? Did you ever read the rules of the road? The right hand lane of the motorway is for overtaking. You drive in the left lane, you use the right hand "OVERTAKING" lane to pass slower cars.

When he said speed was irrelevant he meant it in the sense that the right lane has nothing to do with speed more to do with overtaking which it is the lanes purpose.

The amount of idiots driving in the right hand lane with nothing on the left in Ireland is unreal. Driving test needs to be even harder as they are letting people slip through the radar and unfortunately OP you are one of these people.

delonglad

foghlu77 wrote: »

Does anyone know if he has to issue me the points there and then?

He would have informed you. He was just trying to let you know you were driving unsafe. You wont have any points but you might have learned something.

foghlu77

This is not a motorway it is a dual carriageway. The sign states a speed limit of 100kph. I don't believe that people can go into this magic lane and it becomes the autobahn... but maybe I am wrong?

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

This is not a motorway it is a dual carriageway. The sign states a speed limit of 100kph. I don't believe that people can go into this magic lane and it becomes the autobahn... but maybe I am wrong?

Dual carriageway and motorways are the same in this sense.

Stop worrying about enforcing the speed of others. that's a role for the Gardai.

OP you were wrong in this instance and your general knowledge of safe and appropriate driving is poor. To stay out of trouble in the future and to keep the sanity of other drivers, please do revisit the ROTR

theteal

you're digging this one even deeper OP. I'm not being a d!ck here but have you passed your driving test?

simple rule - keep left unless overtaking

do your 100kmph in the driving lane (left), when you meet slower moving traffic, use the passing/overtaking lane (right) and then safely return to the left lane to continue your journey. repeat as needed.

delonglad

foghlu77 wrote: »

This is not a motorway it is a dual carriageway. The sign states a speed limit of 100kph. I don't believe that people can go into this magic lane and it becomes the autobahn... but maybe I am wrong?

Yes that is the speed limit of both lanes but you may come across a driver travelling at 80kph and need to pass him. This is why there is a right lane. We all agree that people travel more than 100kph (or 120kph) and this is illegal and they can be prosecuted but the point is that the right lane is for overtaking.

When he said regardless of speed he was pointing out in reference to the lane your travelling in doesn't come down to speed but rather the rules of the road.

foghlu77

I have no problem accepting that I may be wrong but I still fail to believe that there is a limitless speed in the overtaking lane no matter how many times I revisit the ROTR.

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

I have no problem accepting that I may be wrong but I still fail to believe that there is a limitless speed in the overtaking lane no matter how many times I revisit the ROTR.

Who said there is limitless speed?

Either you haven't a clue about driving or you are just trying to be a smartass since you've been proved to be in the wrong.

But just so we are clear I will say it again...
Road traffic laws (including speeding) are enforced by the Gardai or, were licensed, by a third party (e.g. the speed vans). It is not up to you to enforce speed limits.
Your responsibilities as a road user is to abide by the ROTR. You didn't do that in this instance and you were brought to task on it by the correct authorities. End of Story.

foghlu77

Taken directly from the ROTR:

"You must not break the speed limit, even when overtaking."

foghlu77

You did Uriel:

"The max speed limit is irrelevant to lane choice here"

theteal

there's no limitless speed in the overtaking lane. he means speed is irrelevant in that the limit in the left lane is the same as the limit in the right - you stated that you thought you could stay in the overtaking lane once you're driving on the limit iirc

foghlu77

Uriel. wrote: »

Who said there is limitless speed?

Either you haven't a clue about driving or you are just trying to be a smartass since you've been proved to be in the wrong.

But just so we are clear I will say it again...
Road traffic laws (including speeding) are enforced by the Gardai or, were licensed, by a third party (e.g. the speed vans). It is not up to you to enforce speed limits.
Your responsibilities as a road user is to abide by the ROTR. You didn't do that in this instance and you were brought to task on it by the correct authorities. End of Story.

I'm not enforcing speed limits. I'm abiding by them.

foghlu77

theteal wrote: »

there's no limitless speed in the overtaking lane. he means speed is irrelevant in that the limit in the left lane is the same as the limit in the right - you stated that you thought you could stay in the overtaking lane once you're driving on the limit iirc

As long as I'm overtaking traffic on my left within the speed limit I presumed I could stay in this lane.

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

You did Uriel:

"The max speed limit is irrelevant to lane choice here"

yep. that doesn't say the lane has a limitless speed.
Do I really need to spell this out to you???

when driving on a dual carraigeway or a motorway you must always drive in the left hand lane unless you are overtaking another vehicle. Doing the speed limit does not negate this rule as you clearly thought. Therefore, as regards to use of the correct lane the speed limit is irrelevant. You don't have a choice based on speed.

Now if I had of said - "the max speed limit is irrelevant to the ROTR in regards to speeding" then you would have a point. But I didn't say that. What is wrong with you exactly?

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

As long as I'm overtaking traffic on my left within the speed limit I presumed I could stay in this lane.

Where did this come from?

You couldn't have been overtaking traffic on the left if

1. You could pull over to the left when the Garda car came from behind you
2. You could pull over when the Garda Car put its hazards on to pull you over
3. Other road users were flashing you

foghlu77

To be fair Uriel, the speed limit is irrelevant to me means the speed limit doesn't matter. When it clearly does.

foghlu77

Uriel. wrote: »

Where did this come from?

You couldn't have been overtaking traffic on the left if

1. You could pull over to the left when the Garda car came from behind you
2. You could pull over when the Garda Car put its hazards on to pull you over
3. Other road users were flashing you

1. When it was safe to do so I did.
2. I couldn't. This is where an incident nearly occurred.
3. Other road user flashed me as I was directly behind the garda vehicle and indicating giving me permission to mover in to the left lane to "undertake" the stopped garda vehicle as both me and the other road users presumed he had stopped someone in front of him.

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

To be fair Uriel, the speed limit is irrelevant to me means the speed limit doesn't matter. When it clearly does.

Explain how speed limit negates the Rule of the Road in respect of correct lane usage.

You either haven't a clue about driving or you are a troll.

foghlu77

Speed limit is part of the rule of the road in respect to lane usage.

I have been driving for 15 years with a full clean licence.

I dont have time to continue this debate but I'm glad that it appears I won't get points as I would have need to have been informed and I will not stay in the overtaking lane for large amounts of time.

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

1. When it was safe to do so I did.
2. I couldn't. This is where an incident nearly occurred.
3. Other road user flashed me as I was directly behind the garda vehicle and indicating giving me permission to mover in to the left lane to "undertake" the stopped garda vehicle as both me and the other road users presumed he had stopped someone in front of him.

Are you saying that you pulled over to the left lane, let the Garda car past, pulled back to the right lane and the Garda car came to a complete stop in the right hand lane?? I don't believe that for one minute.

Plus indicating doesn't "give [you] permission" to do anything. It signals an intent.

Viper_JB

foghlu77 wrote: »

Speed limit is part of the rule of the road in respect to lane usage.

No one on here has said other wise, what they have said is driving at the speed limit does not give you a right to drive in the overtaking lane...overtaking does and that is all.

foghlu77

That is EXACTLY what happened.

Uriel.

foghlu77 wrote: »

Speed limit is part of the rule of the road in respect to lane usage.

Read my previous posts... you might get it eventually.

I have been driving for 15 years with a full clean licence.

You won't for long if you keep driving that way.

I dont have time to continue this debate but I'm glad that it appears I won't get points as I would have need to have been informed and I will not stay in the overtaking lane for large amounts of time.

very luckily for you and very unluckily for other road users.

kirving

So it went like this?

1. Driving in overtaking lane. Garda comes up behind you and you move into the driving lane.

2. Garda car overtakes you, and you move back into the overtaking lane.

3. Garda car slows down, you have to go back to the left lane to undertake him.

4. Garda car drives beside you, and pulls you in?

Is that what happenned? Just trying to piece it together.

theteal

foghlu77 wrote: »

As long as I'm overtaking traffic on my left within the speed limit I presumed I could stay in this lane.

for this to be the case, there would need to a continuous stream of traffic in the left lane which would prevent you from safely re-entering after completing your passing maneuver - highly unlikely to happen bar N7/M50 etc. at rush hour from my experience

Either way, I reckon you got away with it OP, just put it down as a learning experience

foghlu77

Kevin Irving wrote: »

So it went like this?

1. Driving in overtaking lane. Garda comes up behind you and you move into the driving lane.

2. Garda car overtakes you, and you move back into the overtaking lane.

3. Garda car slows down, you have to go back to the left lane to undertake him.

4. Garda car drives beside you, and pulls you in?

Is that what happenned? Just trying to piece it together.

Yes.

board_stiff

foghlu77 wrote: »

I looked at him puzzled and he said do you understand to which I replied No? He then again repeated the fact that I didn't look in my mirror when going to pass him otherwise I would have seen the guy flash. I didn't see anyone flash just a queue of cars behind me.

In your first post you indicate that you didn't see anyone flashing you when asked by the Garda.

foghlu77 wrote: »

3. Other road user flashed me as I was directly behind the garda vehicle and indicating giving me permission to mover in to the left lane to "undertake" the stopped garda vehicle as both me and the other road users presumed he had stopped someone in front of him.

Now you are saying that you did see an other road user flash you indicating you should move into the left lane to "undertake" the stopped garda vehicle.

Sounds like you are changing your story a bit?

foghlu77

Sorry, tbc, the flashing he was mentioning was that road users were flashing me after I had pulled out, which I didn't see but I was flashed as permission to move before I did.

theteal

Kevin Irving wrote: »

So it went like this?

1. Driving in overtaking lane. Garda comes up behind you and you move into the driving lane.

2. Garda car overtakes you, and you move back into the overtaking lane.

3. Garda car slows down, you have to go back to the left lane to undertake him.

4. Garda car drives beside you, and pulls you in?

Is that what happenned? Just trying to piece it together.

foghlu77 wrote: »

Yes.

holy sh!t! if you don't get points for this. . .

so hogging the overtaking lane and an undertake (not even to mention a garda car!) in the same sequence of driving

to have a license for 15 years and actually come online thinking you were in the right. . .I'm a bit lost for words

this is a fine example of irish driving

daveyboy_1ie

It really is simple OP, you stay in the LH lane until you approach slower moving vehicles. Then you indicate safely to move to the RH lane and then when the overtaking procedure is finished you move back to the correct lane.

What you are saying is it is ok to stay in the RH lane regardless if anyone is in the LH lane or not, as long as you are driving the correct speed limit. I can see the flawed thinking, theoretically if you are driving 100KPH in a 100KPH zone then noone should legally be able to overtake you, thus you do not need to move into the LH lane as noone will be overtaking you and people ahead of you are in the LH lane as they are travelling slower than you or those in the RH lane should be travelling 100KPH also or at least move over when you catch them up. you must see this is incorrect?

Without getting personal it is this thinking that annoys me most about driving in Ireland, its only when you travel on the continent you realise how bad we are at this and fail to use the lanes properly. Also the RH lane (or lanes) should be used when merging with traffic on motorways/ dual carriageways. This again is where we as a nation fall down as people still think of lanes as being 'fast lane' and 'slow lane'.

alexlyons

Uriel. wrote: »

You couldn't have been overtaking traffic on the left if

1. You could pull over to the left when the Garda car came from behind you
2. You could pull over when the Garda Car put its hazards on to pull you over
3. Other road users were flashing you

I agree with the points of not driving in the overtaking lane etc but some of the posts like the one above are laughable and shows people clearly don't understand more than one or two scenarios on the road.

If you are overtaking, you are entitled to be in the overtaking lane.

If traffic is spread out to a small degree leaving enough room to reenter the left lane but driving slow enough for you to be constantly overtaking, then it is far safer to stay in the overtaking lane and pass them all rather than swapping back and forth numerous times staying in either lane for no more than a few seconds.
This lane hoping is dangerous and it is far safer to stay in the overtaking lane to overtake cars even if the gap between them is a little bit bigger than normal.

claiming that he couldn't have been overtaking if 3 criteria weren't met is a joke. the first two points could very easily have been through a scenario similar to the one above.

the third one, "you couldn't have been overtaking if other road users were flashing you". that is even worse, it is very easy to overtake while someone else is flashing there headlights. there could have been a car further behind him in the overtaking lane for all you know, or plenty of other scenarios.

Uriel.

theteal wrote: »

holy sh!t! if you don't get points for this. . .

so hogging the overtaking lane and an undertake (not even to mention a garda car!) in the same sequence of driving

to have a license for 15 years and actually come online thinking you were in the right. . .I'm a bit lost for words

this is a fine example of irish driving

Eh theteal, you are going over the top here... the most important point about this incident is that the speed limit was not broken... don't you see... no other ROTR matter. It's all good , if you don't break the speed limit, there can be no accident or poor and illegal driving :rolleyes:

Jimdagym

Uriel. wrote: »

Eh theteal, you are going over the top here... the most important point about this incident is that the speed limit was not broken... don't you see... no other ROTR matter. It's all good , if you don't break the speed limit, there can be no accident or poor and illegal driving :rolleyes:

Huh? There can be dangerous driving within the speed limit. That makes no sense.

Uriel.

alexlyons wrote: »

I agree with the points of not driving in the overtaking lane etc but some of the posts like the one above are laughable and shows people clearly don't understand more than one or two scenarios on the road.

If you are overtaking, you are entitled to be in the overtaking lane.

If traffic is spread out to a small degree leaving enough room to reenter the left lane but driving slow enough for you to be constantly overtaking, then it is far safer to stay in the overtaking lane and pass them all rather than swapping back and forth numerous times staying in either lane for no more than a few seconds.
This lane hoping is dangerous and it is far safer to stay in the overtaking lane to overtake cars even if the gap between them is a little bit bigger than normal.

claiming that he couldn't have been overtaking if 3 criteria weren't met is a joke. the first two points could very easily have been through a scenario similar to the one above.

the third one, "you couldn't have been overtaking if other road users were flashing you". that is even worse, it is very easy to overtake while someone else is flashing there headlights. there could have been a car further behind him in the overtaking lane for all you know, or plenty of other scenarios.

Just to point out, my posts are geared specifically towards the OP and his/her posts. You are right in what you say about specific and differing circumstances... but I am not going to write a white paper on safe and practical driving for anyone, especially someone who can't understand correct lane usage.

To write about practical motor way/dual carriage way driving I could post 500 times in this thread easily. But I am not going to do that. You can if you are so inclined.

And blah blah blah to your plenty of scenarios suggestion. we are presented with information here and we respond accordingly. It is not up to us to to try tease out the full story here. From the information provided by the OP he is shown as being in the wrong.

board_stiff

Jimdagym wrote: »

Huh? There can be dangerous driving within the speed limit. That makes no sense.

I think there may have been a HUGE dose of sarcasm inserted here..

Uriel.

Jimdagym wrote: »

Huh? There can be dangerous driving within the speed limit. That makes no sense.

sarcasm indicator fail.