Connolly Station redevelopment

Rud

Somehow i can't see this happening

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cie-pulls-out-all-the-stops-with-massive-connolly-development-2678714.html

mikemac

No shortage of hotels around that area and the IFSC isn't lacking vacant office space for sure.

It is an excellent location but they are a few years late with this

I don't see it happening either

And even as I say a few years late I remember the fantastic plans for Ceannt Station in Galway during the Celtic Tiger and again nothing happened there

Bluetonic

mikemac wrote: »

No shortage of hotels around that area and the IFSC isn't lacking vacant office space for sure.

The majority of the office space in the IFSC is too small for any very large companies who want to base them self in the one buidling

There is a serious lack of high quality modern large office space in Dublin city.

Hungerford

Rud wrote: »

Somehow i can't see this happening

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cie-pulls-out-all-the-stops-with-massive-connolly-development-2678714.html

Unsurprisingly, Barry Kenny failed to mention that the plan involved the removal of all stabling capacity at the station. But then again, CIE is a transport property speculation company dedicated to operating destroying the state's railways.

Bluetonic

Is this going to turn into another excuse to slag CIE/IR/Barry Kenny?

Totally and utterly pointless.

Run_to_da_hills

Train stations and hotels don't mix.

http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/115332.html

n97 mini

It amazes me how disconnected CIE is from reality. Leo, do something!

mikemac

Bluetonic wrote: »

There is a serious lack of high quality modern large office space in Dublin city.

Fantastic office space at HSQ by Heuston and much of that is vacant.
Eircom have very impressive offices out there

foggy_lad

Maybe they could build a proper train station when they are doing all their developing? Connolly station is an awful mess with platforms spread all over the place and only one entrance which seriously inconveniences all dart and suburban commuters who use platforms 5, 6 and 7. They should really reopen the old commuter entrance but maybe there is some reason apart from the usual security fears for not doing this? is that part of the building in a good state of repair? maybe it is falling down or has some critical defect? why else would Irish Rail inconvenience most of their daily bread and butter passengers?

mikemac

The motorcycle dealer is closed down now so it should be possible to reopen the old entrance.

It wasn't possible while they held the lease.
I'm not sure what the delay is

If it's security fear and people getting hassled in a narrow walkway, well nobody better then the ex Serbian paratroopers :P to move them on.
They do a good job with security

mgmt

From The Article
13 new buildings, ranging in height from two to seven storeys, on the space currently occupied by offices and the car park.

Where's the new intercity bus station they planned to put in the car park? The NTA should take over this asset and build the new bus terminal.

dowlingm

Hungerford wrote: »

Unsurprisingly, Barry Kenny failed to mention that the plan involved the removal of all stabling capacity at the station. But then again, CIE is a transport property speculation company dedicated to operating destroying the state's railways.

What trains are stabled? If these are commuter trains deadheading in the mornings, they should be stored nearer their morning startpoints. In Toronto they have stabling yards east and west of Union Station to store trains mid-day but none in the station itself which is dedicated to optimizing track placement.

Run_to_da_hills

mikemac wrote: »

The motorcycle dealer is closed down now so it should be possible to reopen the old entrance.

I doubt if it will get the numbers, since its closure we have now got the Luas, most commuters taking this will continue to use the current entrance particularly if it is raining.

BrianD

Hungerford wrote: »

Unsurprisingly, Barry Kenny failed to mention that the plan involved the removal of all stabling capacity at the station. But then again, CIE is a transport property speculation company dedicated to operating destroying the state's railways.

Is stabling required? There should be no train storage at Connolly. Trains should be either passing through in the case of commuter trains and for intercity pull in and out.

Perhaps CIE should get a bit of a pat on the back for breaking the traditional mould.

Redeveloping Connolly makes sense. There's also value in well located properties. It's an asset that should increase in value.

DWCommuter

"Preparing for the future"

More like clinging to the past.

CIE can't do transport and they certainly can't do property development. Despite the biggest ever development boom in the history of the state, they consistently failed to redevelop large tracts of land successfully. They destroyed the Spencer Dock site on the premise that the money would roll forever and the interconnector would be built. Their little surface station that was intended to be temporary was sited based on developers interests, thereby negating its connectivity to other lines. It currently occupies a derelict site that may never see the planned development, while freight activity was squeezed down towards the Point yard and more or less abandoned. But low and behold, CIE now want to forge ahead with planning permission for yet another part of their rail facilities that they deem unnecessary.

All that said, I'm still amazed at the attitude to property development in this country despite the greatest ever boom and bust scenario. While I accept that in the future, development will recover to a point, these CIE plans are akin to the crazy OTT crap that ultimately put us in the ****ter in the first place. Had they done it when it was easier to finance, we'd have it regardless and perhaps make it work eventually. But I believe they have missed the boat as is always usual with anything CIE attempts.

Only CIE could fail to develop their land during the freaky building boom we experienced. I witnessed Pitch and Putt courses turn into apartment complexes within months. Yet CIE trot out grandiose plans when the arse has completely fallen out of building in this country and will never (because its right) reach the levels they are currently aspiring to.

CIE - The absolute worst semi-state ever.

BrianD

DWCommuter wrote: »

"Preparing for the future"

More like clinging to the past.

CIE can't do transport and they certainly can't do property development. Despite the biggest ever development boom in the history of the state, they consistently failed to redevelop large tracts of land successfully. They destroyed the Spencer Dock site on the premise that the money would roll forever and the interconnector would be built. Their little surface station that was intended to be temporary was sited based on developers interests, thereby negating its connectivity to other lines. It currently occupies a derelict site that may never see the planned development, while freight activity was squeezed down towards the Point yard and more or less abandoned. But low and behold, CIE now want to forge ahead with planning permission for yet another part of their rail facilities that they deem unnecessary.

All that said, I'm still amazed at the attitude to property development in this country despite the greatest ever boom and bust scenario. While I accept that in the future, development will recover to a point, these CIE plans are akin to the crazy OTT crap that ultimately put us in the ****ter in the first place. Had they done it when it was easier to finance, we'd have it regardless and perhaps make it work eventually. But I believe they have missed the boat as is always usual with anything CIE attempts.

Only CIE could fail to develop their land during the freaky building boom we experienced. I witnessed Pitch and Putt courses turn into apartment complexes within months. Yet CIE trot out grandiose plans when the arse has completely fallen out of building in this country and will never (because its right) reach the levels they are currently aspiring to.

CIE - The absolute worst semi-state ever.

In fairness, where else would the Docklands station have been sited? It is at the end of the line.

At the same time, perhaps CIE were wise to participate in the boom. They would never have been selling the land and that's where a lot of the money was being spent in the boom. Plus it's likely they would have been in one of these crazy joint venture projects and probably be goosed now. Most of the "developers" in Ireland never had real cash. They either borrowed or if possible pony up with a state company on a joint venture. The risk was with somebody else. You can guess who'd be holding the baby now.

I do recall various plans for both Connolly and Ceant Stations in the past. There most have been something distinctly unattractive about the deals for them not to go ahead. Perhaps it was that CIE couldn't do a deal or there was some reason that developers couldn't get the finance.

Within reason, now is a good time to develop. They still have the land, building costs are down and the CIE sites are in good locations. They will always be valuable.

opinion guy

Madness. If they are investing any money is should be on upgrading rail infrastructure so they can increase capacity through the place, not on property speculation. Don't they watch the news or are they really so far out of touch.

Run_to_da_hills

When the proposed project fails they could use it to rehouse the Fry Model Railway Museum.

dowlingm

The best argument against IE doing this is the balls made of similar proposals at Tara Street, Cork and Galway. If IE have surplus lands suitable for development they should be transferred to a State body whose function would be to aggregate such surpluses and strike deals with developers or commission their own projects. IE could then acquire lands in places like Maynooth/Enfield for a suburban/DART depot to migrate the stabling areas to where they are needed.

BrianD

dowlingm wrote: »

The best argument against IE doing this is the balls made of similar proposals at Tara Street, Cork and Galway. If IE have surplus lands suitable for development they should be transferred to a State body whose function would be to aggregate such surpluses and strike deals with developers or commission their own projects. IE could then acquire lands in places like Maynooth/Enfield for a suburban/DART depot to migrate the stabling areas to where they are needed.

Speaking of Tara St., I notice some demolition work on the buildings on the Tara St. side of the plot that that makes up the proposed development (as far as I remember). ANybody know what's going on there?

DWCommuter

BrianD wrote: »

In fairness, where else would the Docklands station have been sited? It is at the end of the line.

It could have been sited so that it connected with the Drumcondra line and onwards to the PPT. It wasn't, because the developers (CIE & Treasury Holdings aka SDDC) decided that it should be sited on the edge of the proposed development, which (lets face it) won't see development any time soon. Docklands station may become a long term option, but its possibilities have been compromised by greed. The entire Spencer Dock affair was a diabolical misuse of railway property devoid of vision and driven by the incessant greed and disregard for rail based options in the short term. The Luas interchange is poor and the entire project is now without any long term future.

We are now back at short term rail options.

Spencer Dock could have been the main rail head in Dublin and included the development aspects. It was rail connected to every line in the country at one point. All Inter City services could have terminated there. Add in DU and Luas connection and you have a very central rail hub. Heuston could have been redeveloped. Connolly shed could have been the same, leaving the through line for DART and commuter services.

Hungerford

dowlingm wrote: »

What trains are stabled? If these are commuter trains deadheading in the mornings, they should be stored nearer their morning startpoints.

The trains which are stabled overnight at Connolly start there in the mornings - it is the terminus for three intercity lines - Belfast, Sligo and Rosslare. If they remove the stabling at Connolly, the trains would presumably have to deadhead from Portlaoise, Drogheda or Bray.

Lapin

Hungerford wrote: »

If they remove the stabling at Connolly, the trains would presumably have to deadhead from Portlaoise, Drogheda or Bray.

Mullingar no ?

Victor

BrianD wrote: »

In fairness, where else would the Docklands station have been sited? It is at the end of the line.

A similar, two platform station could have been built right at the corner of Guild Street and North Wall Quay (next to the Beckett Bridge), within the south part of Spencer Dock site. This would have meant that it would have had a direct connection to the Luas Red Line and the proposed North Wall Quay QBC (mostly for express buses using the Port Tunnel).

And while Irish Rail don't like buildings over station platforms, a little re-jigging of the site could have arranged that.

Losty Dublin

Victor wrote: »

A similar, two platform station could have been built right at the corner of Guild Street and North Wall Quay (next to the Beckett Bridge), within the south part of Spencer Dock site. This would have meant that it would have had a direct connection to the Luas Red Line and the proposed North Wall Quay QBC (mostly for express buses using the Port Tunnel).

And while Irish Rail don't like buildings over station platforms, a little re-jigging of the site could have arranged that.

That site wasn't considered due to the fact that there are in fact buildings in the way, Victor

Seriously though, there was issues with the potential construction of the underground station and canal that made it handier to put it where it now is; it can also be kept open if need be where it is. IRRS Journal 169 refers to this FTR.

BrianD

Hungerford wrote: »

The trains which are stabled overnight at Connolly start there in the mornings - it is the terminus for three intercity lines - Belfast, Sligo and Rosslare. If they remove the stabling at Connolly, the trains would presumably have to deadhead from Portlaoise, Drogheda or Bray.

Can they not be left at platforms where they operate from now?

D.L.R.

Jaysus, the Brits really screwed us up as a race didn't they. Apparently the only way to make money in this kip is to be a landlord and acquire tenants. No other ideas forthcoming, even after the worst property crash in our history its still the only idea our state bodies can come up with!! How about some transport ideas CIE!

And so many talented people out of work/leaving, while these chimps continue to feed off taxpayer's money dreaming up useless fantasy football projects.

Whoever suggested CIE need to go, I agree entirely. They can join Fianna Foul, the Kid-o-lick Church, and RTE.

dowlingm

Hungerford wrote: »

The trains which are stabled overnight at Connolly start there in the mornings - it is the terminus for three intercity lines - Belfast, Sligo and Rosslare. If they remove the stabling at Connolly, the trains would presumably have to deadhead from Portlaoise, Drogheda or Bray.

Given that Rosslare has now been pushed back beyond rush hour in the draft timetable, the case for stabling there as opposed to sending out an incoming service has reduced.

The first Belfast service leaves 0735 which is early but not so early that the set couldn't run in from elsewhere like Heuston (like the sidings currently being occupied by shiny new 22Ks) or North Wall if the Mark 3s met their scrapper. There are early services ex Connolly to Maynooth (0530, 0610, 0640) but how many of them would be justified if the option existed of return services based from a Maynooth or Enfield yard.

The only way I see a successful development happening in Connolly is to construct something that a) doesn't exist elsewhere in the City of Dublin in terms of floorplan or facilities and b) has potential tenants unsatisfied by their current options. Damned if I can think of something to fit the bill.

LXFlyer

For this to happen you would need alternative stabling locations overnight, and an alternative train care depot location for the servicing of trains - two Sligo sets are serviced there during the day along with the Rosslare sets - but this could be done.

Overnight in Connolly there are normally at least 6 commuter sets (some 4 and some 8 car) for Maynooth/M3, two commuter sets for Rosslare, three 3-car ICR units and a Belfast set.

They could not be all accomodated in the four terminal platforms!

But as several posters point out with some re-jigging around these could be stored elsewhere.

DWCommuter

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That site wasn't considered due to the fact that there are in fact buildings in the way, Victor

Seriously though, there was issues with the potential construction of the underground station and canal that made it handier to put it where it now is; it can also be kept open if need be where it is. IRRS Journal 169 refers to this FTR.

You are referring to post development of Spencer Dock South. The story goes back further than that. In the original master plan for the site, the overground station was to be incorporated into the South development beside where the luas now runs. That would have been the sensible thing to do as it was a brown field site.

Losty Dublin

DWCommuter wrote: »

You are referring to post development of Spencer Dock South. The story goes back further than that. In the original master plan for the site, the overground station was to be incorporated into the South development beside where the luas now runs. That would have been the sensible thing to do as it was a brown field site.

It would have been in an ideal world. But regardless of any land grabbing speculation, there is still practical issues in locating a temporary station around and under a canal basin that's due to be dug under in the mid term.

Going back a few posts, the need to stable trains at Connolly and indeed Pearse and Heuston will be minimal in the future provided Dart Underground goes ahead. Remember, most trains serving the city will be electried through services to and from Maynooth and Drogheda, sites of proposed service depots for same.