Discoloured €50 note

breathn

I had a €50 in my jeans pocket for a few weeks and today I noticed that it has badly discoloured and is more deep golden colour.

I wonder if it's counterfeit so I want to bring it to my local bank to ask them to check.

I was googling and found absolutely nothing on what a citizen should do when they think they've received a possibly counterfeit note.

But my bank is staffed with complete arseholes, I'm worried about what they could do, call the guards or blame me for possessing it?

What's the best thing to do here?
Thanks

TylerIE

Id say bring it to any bank for testing.

If you attempt to pass it in a shop while concerned about its legitimacy then the shop will almost definitely call the Gardai.

Did you check the three most obvious security features on it. The watermark that should be visible when you hold it up to the light. The line of foil down the middle which shouldnt tear if you tear a little into it shouldnt be possible to rip through it, the changeable foil line to the right, and IIRC between the thin centre line and the big word 50 there is a tiny rectangle 0.5cm across by 1cm down, it should be ever so slightly raised.

http://www.fleur-de-coin.com/eurocoins/security.asp has more details

blueythebear

lst wrote: »

Id say bring it to any bank for testing.

If you attempt to pass it in a shop while concerned about its legitimacy then the shop will almost definitely call the Gardai.

Did you check the three most obvious security features on it. The watermark that should be visible when you hold it up to the light. The line of foil down the middle which shouldnt tear if you tear a little into it shouldnt be possible to rip through it, the changeable foil line to the right, and IIRC between the thin centre line and the big word 50 there is a tiny rectangle 0.5cm across by 1cm down, it should be ever so slightly raised.

http://www.fleur-de-coin.com/eurocoins/security.asp has more details

If you bring it to the bank for testing and it is counterfeit, be prepared to lose out on €50.

TylerIE

blueythebear wrote: »

If you bring it to the bank for testing and it is counterfeit, be prepared to lose out on €50.

If he suspects its counterfeit its inappropriate for him to just try to pass it off in a shop, and may result in him getting at a minimum details taken by Gardai.

Im aware of once incident recently where lovely little old lady nearby recently had to wait for Gardai in a shop belonging to a national chain after she tendered a fake €5 note. There was no malice in the incident just it was store policy, and also quite distressing.

It may just be discouloured from fading or washing.

So.....
If its counterfeit hes lost out on €50. < note the full stop.

Zambia

Why did she have to wait. Did someone spear tackle her as she was heading for the fire escape? On the part of the store the waste of police time in that scenario is terrible.

TylerIE

They didnt restrain her or anything, but as someone who had handed them false currency in payment for goods they told her she would have to wait for the Gardai.

Its not a far cry from making off without payment / theft and its for the Gardai to investigate same (And to track the money) so its reasonable for the person to tendered it to be expected to wait.

And if someone is innocent one would expect them happy to assist in the investigation into whoever caused them to end up with worthless currency.

Our man in Havana

Expected to wait?

I would just walk out.

chucken1

[QUOTE=breathn;72844837]I had a €50 in my jeans pocket for a few weeks and today I noticed that it has badly discoloured and is more deep golden colour.

I wonder if it's counterfeit so I want to bring it to my local bank to ask them to check.

I was googling and found absolutely nothing on what a citizen should do when they think they've received a possibly counterfeit note.

But my bank is staffed with complete arseholes, I'm worried about what they could do, call the guards or blame me for possessing it?

What's the best thing to do here?
Thanks[/QUOTE]

I know I'll get a kick here but...how could you miss 50euro in your pocket for a few weeks?

blueythebear

lst wrote: »

If he suspects its counterfeit its inappropriate for him to just try to pass it off in a shop, and may result in him getting at a minimum details taken by Gardai.

Im aware of once incident recently where lovely little old lady nearby recently had to wait for Gardai in a shop belonging to a national chain after she tendered a fake €5 note. There was no malice in the incident just it was store policy, and also quite distressing.

It may just be discouloured from fading or washing.

So.....
If its counterfeit hes lost out on €50. < note the full stop.

I never actually suggested that he try to pass it on. I was merely informing the OP that if it is counterfeit, it is the duty of the Bank then to retain the offending note and to pass it on to the Gardaí with a view to ascertaining its' origin.

Mr Trade In

Go to a local supermarket, buy a bottle of Coke at the self service counter,if it works in the machine it is real,if not take it to a blonde cashier.

TylerIE

blueythebear wrote: »

I never actually suggested that he try to pass it on. I was merely informing the OP that if it is counterfeit, it is the duty of the Bank then to retain the offending note and to pass it on to the Gardaí with a view to ascertaining its' origin.

Ah ok, I should have made it clearer in my initial reply thats its essentially lost money if its fake!

TylerIE

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Expected to wait?

I would just walk out.

Which doesnt look too innocent and will result in the Gardai having to waste their time trying to track down your identity, when they could spend that time instead looking for the actual crooks.

Our man in Havana

I wouldn't give a toss how it looked. I would not wait for anyone.

Zambia

lst wrote: »

They didnt restrain her or anything, but as someone who had handed them false currency in payment for goods they told her she would have to wait for the Gardai.

Chances are she was old and frail anyone who was fit and of working age in any position of authority telling her that, would result in her feeling compelled to stay. Sounds like an arrest to me.

lst wrote: »

Its not a far cry from making off without payment / theft and its for the Gardai to investigate same (And to track the money) so its reasonable for the person to tendered it to be expected to wait.

Its a very far cry unless they have proof she knew it was fake. For example just tried to use it in the off licence was told it was fake then tried again in grocery. In essence the old lady is the fraud victim here as she was passed a fake 5 euro. The store have only had an attempted fraud. Yet have gone on to commit false imprisonment for the sake of that.

lst wrote: »

And if someone is innocent one would expect them happy to assist in the investigation into whoever caused them to end up with worthless currency.

True but a clever manager/Store Security would calmly explain what has happened, to the lady to one side. Ask for her name and contact details so he can pass them and the note on to the Gardai.
The Gardai can then investigate at liesure.

For a crime of this nature to be commited it should have a guilty act and a guilty mind in this case. I don't see the guilty mind.

This thread in the OP's instance would be proof he/she knew the note was not kosher. So if he/she did pass it then they commit the guilty act and the offence is complete.

TylerIE

Zambia wrote: »

Chances are she was old and frail anyone who was fit and of working age in any position of authority telling her that, would result in her feeling compelled to stay. Sounds like an arrest to me.

I agree she did feel compelled to stay.

True but a clever manager/Store Security would calmly explain what has happened, to the lady to one side. Ask for her name and contact details so he can pass them and the note on to the Gardai.
The Gardai can then investigate at liesure.

Whatever about telling someone to wait for Gardai, a store certainly would have no legal rights to demand the name and address, and proof of same, of a member of the public. I was referring mainly to the OPs situation, and gave a true example of the potential inconvenience he could face if found with a fake note, and hadnt intended a protracted discussion on same. Personally Id totally refuse to give any retail staff personal details in a situation like that - If they didnt call the Guards I would!

For a crime of this nature to be commited it should have a guilty act and a guilty mind in this case. I don't see the guilty mind.

This thread in the OP's instance would be proof he/she knew the note was not kosher. So if he/she did pass it then they commit the guilty act and the offence is complete.

Yes and its acceptable for store staff to allow Gardai to determine if there is a need to prosecute for intentionally defrauding, rather then the store itself doing so.

Zambia

lst wrote: »

Whatever about telling someone to wait for Gardai, a store certainly would have no legal rights to demand the name and address, and proof of same, of a member of the public. I was referring mainly to the OPs situation, and gave a true example of the potential inconvenience he could face if found with a fake note, and hadnt intended a protracted discussion on same. Personally Id totally refuse to give any retail staff personal details in a situation like that - If they didnt call the Guards I would!

I agree they have no power to demand name and address, they could ask. Once again this old lady is the victim here. If she does not want to give N&A, fair enough just let her. Chances are if they were raffling a car people give out those details at will. The power of arrest was never there.

lst wrote: »

Yes and its acceptable for store staff to allow Gardai to determine if there is a need to prosecute for intentionally defrauding, rather then the store itself doing so.

Yes but in the case described the store staff cant hold her for the Gardai.

Anyway I understand this is not the Crux of the topic but as an aside it is heavily linked in regards the consequences of using the $50.

The OP's original concern was what his bank might do if he produced a Fake 50.

Its an offence if you knowing it be fake pass it , no question.

So the 50 Euro question is, is it an offence to possess a Fake 50 Euro note?

NoQuarter

Walk into any bookies and ask them to test it with their counterfit pens. Again, if its fake your 50 will have a lovely black mark across it now.

Our man in Havana

NoQuarter wrote: »

Walk into any bookies and ask them to test it with their counterfit pens. Again, if its fake your 50 will have a lovely black mark across it now.

Probably the best solution if in doubt.

sweetafton

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Probably the best solution if in doubt.

Bookies... is there anything they can't do!

johnnyskeleton

Has no one yet suggested going to the gardai and informing them that you believe the note to be counterfeit? Far better to come out of the garda station with a red face than to have to wait in a shop all that time. Plus, if it genuinely is a counterfeit note, how you came across it might be of interest to the gardai.

TylerIE

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Has no one yet suggested going to the gardai and informing them that you believe the note to be counterfeit? Far better to come out of the garda station with a red face than to have to wait in a shop all that time. Plus, if it genuinely is a counterfeit note, how you came across it might be of interest to the gardai.

I had said that above and stated that thats why Gardai would want to speak to someone who used it in a shop, however we seem to be the only people who feel this way!

JohnK

blueythebear wrote: »

...I was merely informing the OP that if it is counterfeit, it is the duty of the Bank then to retain the offending note and to pass it on to the Gardaí with a view to ascertaining its' origin.

Well thats realistically what they should do but its not necessarily what they will do. About 5 years ago I sold my car for about €9,000 and the guy who bought it paid for it in cash, all €50 notes. When I went to lodge the cash the bank discovered one of the €50 notes was a rather bad forgery but they never took it just told me it was fake, demonstrated it with one of those pen things then just handed it back to me.

KingIsabella

Buy one of those plain magic markers, if its fake then the writing will come out black, if not then itll be darky yellowy.

source

Zambia wrote: »

I agree they have no power to demand name and address, they could ask. Once again this old lady is the victim here. If she does not want to give N&A, fair enough just let her. Chances are if they were raffling a car people give out those details at will. The power of arrest was never there.


Yes but in the case described the store staff cant hold her for the Gardai.

Anyway I understand this is not the Crux of the topic but as an aside it is heavily linked in regards the consequences of using the $50.

The OP's original concern was what his bank might do if he produced a Fake 50.

Its an offence if you knowing it be fake pass it , no question.

So the 50 Euro question is, is it an offence to possess a Fake 50 Euro note?

It is an offence to knowingly use said forgery, and is not for the store security guard to establish intent, that is for AGS and the courts to do.

I have personally been involved in a case where a woman in her 50's was trying to pass off a forgery in a shop. Woman looked like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, she had a stack of fake 50's in her house.

Just because the person is old doesn't make it okay to let them off if suspected of an offence.

In this instance using the fake €50 was an offence under Section 26 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 and is an arrestable offence, this means that the security guard is perfectly entitled to detain a person suspected of said offence under Section 4 Criminal Law Act 1997. Also unlike us, a security guard doesn't need to inform the person they're under arrest, they detain them and hand them over AGS as soon as practicable.

spurs1961

They will tell you if it 's hooky or not.

It's the only thing they do well given they failed to spot or current crisis

Zambia

foinse wrote: »

It is an offence to knowingly use said forgery, and is not for the store security guard to establish intent, that is for AGS and the courts to do.

Well not really to a degree they have to as there is no offence without it. If there is offence there is no power of arrest.

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.


So no intent = no offence , no offence = No arrest

4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.


In the case described yes the note has been produced but there is no evidence that they knew it was false or intentionally meant to defraud(none mentioned anyway). Like I said someone with very basic social skills would have handled this fine without any need for Gardai attendance.A reasonable person would simply come to the belief the old woman was passed a fake 5euro in change.

foinse wrote: »

Just because the person is old doesn't make it okay to let them off if suspected of an offence.

100 agree however I do feel its a factor in why the woman waited and possibly how she was conned if she was.

If I used a fake 5 euro unknowingly I would not be hanging around for your good selves. I would gladly hand it over and leave a contact number with the store should Gardai wish to speak with me.

jdooley28

JohnK wrote: »

Well thats realistically what they should do but its not necessarily what they will do. About 5 years ago I sold my car for about €9,000 and the guy who bought it paid for it in cash, all €50 notes. When I went to lodge the cash the bank discovered one of the €50 notes was a rather bad forgery but they never took it just told me it was fake, demonstrated it with one of those pen things then just handed it back to me.

€9000 cash!! You'd want to be mad carrying that amount of money around. I'd nearly €500 on me today was paranoid enough carrying that around

source

Zambia wrote: »

Well not really to a degree they have to as there is no offence without it. If there is offence there is no power of arrest.

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.


So no intent = no offence , no offence = No arrest

4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.


In the case described yes the note has been produced but there is no evidence that they knew it was false or intentionally meant to defraud(none mentioned anyway). Like I said someone with very basic social skills would have handled this fine without any need for Gardai attendance.A reasonable person would simply come to the belief the old woman was passed a fake 5euro in change.



100 agree however I do feel its a factor in why the woman waited and possibly how she was conned if she was.

If I used a fake 5 euro unknowingly I would not be hanging around for your good selves. I would gladly hand it over and leave a contact number with the store should Gardai wish to speak with me.

Okay, but the issue is how do we decide intent? By asking questions of the person suspected (interview, both informal and formal).The store staff are not trained investigators. As such when they reasonably suspect a person has committed an offence (the handing into the store of fake currency), they are well within their rights to hold the person until the arrival of AGS. Also it is not the staffs decision to make as to whether this person just got a dud 50 through a shop, or if they're manufacturing them.

The member will conduct an informal interview after caution in the store, and ask the relevant questions that will lead to a decision on whether or not they believe intent was present in that particular case. Only at that stage will the person "officially" become a suspect or victim. If suspect then back to the station under arrest for a formal interview, if victim, details taken and source of note taken, investigation continues.

Zambia

foinse wrote: »

Okay, but the issue is how do we decide intent?

By the actions of the person. Example being a bloke puts 600 euro worth of bacon in a holdall and walks right by the till and leaves a store. Its reasonable to assume his intent was to steal the bacon.

Like I said before if she tried to us it in one till was told its a fake then tried to use it in another till. Then the store has intent, they have the action of passing the note and they can sit on her as long as it takes AGS to arrive.

foinse wrote: »

The store staff are not trained investigators. As such when they reasonably suspect a person has committed an offence (the handing into the store of fake currency), they are well within their rights to hold the person until the arrival of AGS.

Yeah but in this case a reasonable person would assume the old lady just got a dodgy 5 euro from someone else. So they would not have grounds to hold the lady.

foinse wrote: »

Also it is not the staffs decision to make as to whether this person just got a dud 50 through a shop, or if they're manufacturing them.

But if they want to hold the person they have come to a decision other wise they cant arrest. They can either hold them for knowingly passing a fake 5 euro or let them go.

source

Zambia wrote: »

By the actions of the person. Example being a bloke puts 600 euro worth of bacon in a holdall and walks right by the till and leaves a store. Its reasonable to assume his intent was to steal the bacon.

Like I said before if she tried to us it in one till was told its a fake then tried to use it in another till. Then the store has intent, they have the action of passing the note and they can sit on her as long as it takes AGS to arrive.

Yes that would be a blatant display of intent. However the person who tries to pass it off and then walks out of the shop is no less guilty, and the intent is not as easily seen in this example.

Zambia wrote: »

Yeah but in this case a reasonable person would assume the old lady just got a dodgy 5 euro from someone else. So they would not have grounds to hold the lady.

Assumption is the mother of all fcuk ups mate, never assume anything is what I was taught in phase 2 and it's something that has helped me along so far in this job. To assume something and miss something because of that assumption is nothing short of negligence.

Zambia wrote: »

But if they want to hold the person they have come to a decision other wise they cant arrest. They can either hold them for knowingly passing a fake 5 euro or let them go.

They don't have to know for sure, they have to suspect that the person attempted to hand it in knowing that it was fake.

fencedin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Has no one yet suggested going to the gardai and informing them that you believe the note to be counterfeit? Far better to come out of the garda station with a red face than to have to wait in a shop all that time. Plus, if it genuinely is a counterfeit note, how you came across it might be of interest to the gardai.

genuinely a counterfeit note

genuine

counterfeit:D

Zambia

foinse wrote: »

Yes that would be a blatant display of intent. However the person who tries to pass it off and then walks out of the shop is no less guilty, and the intent is not as easily seen in this example.

They don't have to know for sure, they have to suspect that the person attempted to hand it in knowing that it was fake.

I would have to disagree here the acts states that they have reasonable cause to suspect. This is why I mentioned the reasonable person assumption or belief if you will.

If a reasonable person would notsuspect that that the old lady is passing a dud with intent to defraud then there is no offence. In the case described it would on the balance of probability that most reasonable people would not assume she was trying to defraud the store.

However this all hinges on the reasonable cause to suspect and how it is interpreted by an Irish court. Here is where you would of course be better versed than I would.

The way I read it is that the "reasonable cause" is there to prevent over zealous arrest by members of the public on each other. I consider myself a reasonable person and from what was described I would not be able to justify holding her. Otherwise anyone who suspected anyone of a crime could hold them.

Like I said before lets say you are shopping you are passed a dud 20 euro, you dont even look at it. You go to the next shop and pass it, mid purchase you are informed by staff you are under arrest and have to wait there for the Gardai.

Would you consider that a valid citizens arrest?

JonathanAnon

Just found this post.. A lad gave me 200 in what appear to be fake 50s and I'm in the same situation.. I had a few lads carry out the cliché tests on one of them and they couldnt prove it to be a fake but I'm pretty certain...

I am paranoid by nature, so I to a mental photo of the guys reg when he showed up at my door .. the reg matches the car type and colour, and a local guard said that the car is legit, taxed and insured...

Now, I passed a serious accident on the way home tonight, so I realise this is not the end of the world.. but I'd hate to think of this guy scamming more people with his toytown notes... Has anybody any suggestions on how to proceed (after I verify tomorrow that the notes are fake).. ?

Our man in Havana

Turn the notes over to the Gardaí with your evidence. I know you will be down the €200 but what were you going to do with them anyways?

JonathanAnon

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Turn the notes over to the Gardaí with your evidence. I know you will be down the €200 but what were you going to do with them anyways?

Everybody is advising me to just spend the notes.. But I would rather have the lad caught... Was in with the guards on Saturday morning.. was told the local guard would ring me back, but he didnt.. and then Sunday morning and was told the same... but the guard still hasnt contacted me. Same guard is meant to be off today, as he's worked all weekend.. :mad: They say that they want me to give the notes to the local guard, who's gonna send them for testing... oh, and they ran the reg I gave them, which is legitimately registered to a person in Durrow (i.e. it's not stolen) ..

Now, I dont care about the money or the van.. I had come home to find him snooping around my place.. And the previous day I arrived home to find the door of said van wide open, where somebody had obviously been at it.. I really just wanted to get shot of this lad from my door. I was heading off for the night (and very obviously so, wearing my suit), and could envisage him breaking in while I was away... But it would be nice if the guards would actually do something to stop this guy pushing out fake money..

I'll play this out and keep the thread updated for other people who find themselves in the same situation.

breathn

I just saw this in a regional paper this evening so I'm transcribing it below:

Gardai in the town arrested a juvenile on Sunday, September 18, after he allegedly tendered a fake €50 in a local shop.
The circulation of false notes has been on ongoing problem in the area over the summer months and local businesses are urged to contact the gardai if they are suspicious about any notes they have received in recent weeks.
Some of the forged notes are of reasonable quality but all can be detected using the appropriate methods.
The youth who tendered the fake €50 in a local shop on Sunday last was reported to gardai by the shop keeper concerned. Gardai were able to locate and arrest the suspect as a result of the description they received and he was found to be in possession of the suspected forged noted.
The youth has since been released following a short detention. A file will be forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecution in due course.

Typos are unchanged from the article, I added the emboldening.

Of course there's probably more to the story than was just written but I thought it was interesting to add to this topic.

NoQuarter

Call me drunk (my mother did) but I could only detect one typo! Whats the point of this article? Why did you make me read this over boobs?

breathn

Well earlier in the thread I wondered what would happen if the note you had was counterfeit.

Here I'm showing a news article where the guards have instructed businesses to call them whenever they come across any suspicious notes. The article also shows that they even arrested a guy who was found to be in possession of the note.

I don't know if they're arresting if someone has just a single note or multiple notes. Would be pretty crappy if anyone wandered into a shop and accidentally had a fake note and got arrested for it.

Milk & Honey

NoQuarter wrote: »

Call me drunk (my mother did) but I could only detect one typo! Whats the point of this article? Why did you make me read this over boobs?

There are at least 2 blatant typos. I suspect a third.

MagicSean

If a person tries to pay with a counterfeit money an offence has been committed. The offence is Counterfeiting under Section 33 of the Theft and Fraud Offences Act. The intent of the person using the money is irrelevant. The mere fact that the fake currency is in existence and in use is proof that a crime under section 33 has been committed including the issue of intent, although the intent may not be attiributable to the person currently in posession of the note. If the person in posession of the note is trying to use it and refusing to wait for Gardaí to attend it is reasonable for a security guard to suspect they have committed the offence under Section 33 and so a citizens arrest would be lawful.

As for the issue of what to do. The correct thing to do would be to hand it in to the bank. They will give you a receipt and send it off for testing and will contact you with the result. If it is found to be counterfeit I believe they give you some documentation to this effect that you can then bring to the Gardaí. You should also notify the Gardaí in the area where you believe you obtained the note so that they may source any cctv in good time.

Zambia

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

If a person tries to pay with a counterfeit money an offence has been committed. The offence is Counterfeiting under Section 33 of the Theft and Fraud Offences Act. The intent of the person using the money is irrelevant. The mere fact that the fake currency is in existence and in use is proof that a crime under section 33 has been committed including the issue of intent, although the intent may not be attiributable to the person currently in posession of the note. If the person in posession of the note is trying to use it and refusing to wait for Gardaí to attend it is reasonable for a security guard to suspect they have committed the offence under Section 33 and so a citizens arrest would be lawful.

33.—(1) A person who makes a counterfeit of a currency note or coin, with the intention that he or she or another shall pass or tender it as genuine, is guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0033.html

I don't believe your post, Mens rea and Actus rea both surely come into play. If a person who passes a note and on being informed of the notes authenticity leaves their contact details I do not see any issue.

How long would you expect someone to wait for Gardai when they have commited no crime?

Fighting Irish

TylerIE wrote: »

They didnt restrain her or anything, but as someone who had handed them false currency in payment for goods they told her she would have to wait for the Gardai.

Its not a far cry from making off without payment / theft and its for the Gardai to investigate same (And to track the money) so its reasonable for the person to tendered it to be expected to wait.

And if someone is innocent one would expect them happy to assist in the investigation into whoever caused them to end up with worthless currency.

If i got a fake €50 i'd defo try pass it on, fook being helpful!

MagicSean

Zambia wrote: »

33.—(1) A person who makes a counterfeit of a currency note or coin, with the intention that he or she or another shall pass or tender it as genuine, is guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0033.html

I don't believe your post, Mens rea and Actus rea both surely come into play. If a person who passes a note and on being informed of the notes authenticity leaves their contact details I do not see any issue.

How long would you expect someone to wait for Gardai when they have commited no crime?

If the person in the shop is the one that has made the note then their actions by handing it over prove intent under section 33. If they are not the one that made the note then the fact that they have it proves that the intent was there on the part of the person who made it as they have already passed it on. In either case, a crime under Section 33 has been committed and there is reasonable cause on the part of the security guard to suspect the person currently in posession has committed that crime. As such an arrest under section 4 of the CLA would be acceptable.

Zambia

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

If the person in the shop is the one that has made the note then their actions by handing it over prove intent under section 33.

No question

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

If they are not the one that made the note then the fact that they have it proves that the intent was there on the part of the person who made it as they have already passed it on.

Yes agreed

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

In either case, a crime under Section 33 has been committed and there is reasonable cause on the part of the security guard to suspect the person currently in posession has committed that crime. As such an arrest under section 4 of the CLA would be acceptable.

Here we don't agree , if the person with the notes states he does not know how he came across it. They are also willing to provide the store with contact details and ID. An arrest in this scenario is not lawful as intent is not there. the person cannot be held accountable for the maker of the notes intention.

Security prove intent by overt acts, if the passer ran on discovery then you may have something. If the passer gave false details or refused to give details you also might have something.

MagicSean

Zambia wrote: »

No question

Yes agreed



Here we don't agree , if the person with the notes states he does not know how he came across it. They are also willing to provide the store with contact details and ID. An arrest in this scenario is not lawful as intent is not there. the person cannot be held accountable for the maker of the notes intention.

Security prove intent by overt acts, if the passer ran on discovery then you may have something. If the passer gave false details or refused to give details you also might have something.

Section 4 of the CLA act requires that an offence has been committed. You don't disagree that in this case an offence under section 33 has been committed.

The second part requires the security guard to have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed the offence. In the case of a person attempting to use the money and declining to wait for Gardaí to attend then there is a reasonable cause for the security guard to suspect that person of being the one that committed the offence.

His actual intent in the shop is not relevant in this case. The intent relates to the original manufacture of the currency which has been proven by the fact that the currency is being used.

Zambia

The person has been co-operative and given details so Garda can get in touch with him. He if anything has asked for Garda to contact him. He is out of pocket more than the store .

He is not avoiding the Garda he is just not willing to wait there for an undetermined amount of time.

MagicSean

Zambia wrote: »

The person has been co-operative and given details so Garda can get in touch with him. He if anything has asked for Garda to contact him. He is out of pocket more than the store .

He is not avoiding the Garda he is just not willing to wait there for an undetermined amount of time.

he may not have a choice. If the security guard is not completely satisifed as to his identity he can detain him for the Gardaí. Allthough in most cases they don't bother even reporting it.

Zambia

If it was me I would provide enough detail for a reasonable person to believe who I was then leave. The guard would have to keep me there by force.

I would imagine that any reasonable person would also refuse to be detained in the same circumstances.

MagicSean

Zambia wrote: »

If it was me I would provide enough detail for a reasonable person to believe who I was then leave. The guard would have to keep me there by force.

I would imagine that any reasonable person would also refuse to be detained in the same circumstances.

What detail would you give? I'd be wary about accepting ID from someone I suspected of counterfeiting.

Zambia

I would pay for the goods using chip and pin and if I had it show my driving licence. Seems reasonable to me. The arrest must be made on reasonable grounds not just suspicion. If the store accepts the chip and pin payment then they accept thats me. If my identity is not in doubt they have no grounds to hold me.

How do you quantify reasonable?

I quantify by equating what a reasonable person would believe given the exact same circumstances.

MagicSean

Zambia wrote: »

I would pay for the goods using chip and pin and if I had it show my driving licence. Seems reasonable to me. The arrest must be made on reasonable grounds not just suspicion. If the store accepts the chip and pin payment then they accept thats me. If my identity is not in doubt they have no grounds to hold me.

How do you quantify reasonable?

I quantify by equating what a reasonable person would believe given the exact same circumstances.

Your identity isn't really relevant either. The statute allows for them to arrest you if they believe you may try to avoid arrest by the Gardaí. Leaving before they got there would be reason to believe that.

Are you honestly saying that if someone tried to pass off a counterfeit note to you you would accept their drivers licence as ID, a document which is very easily forged?

A reasonable person would have plenty of grounds to believe you have committed the crime of counterfeiting and would be entitled to detain you for the Gardaí.