Discoloured €50 note

breathn

I had a €50 in my jeans pocket for a few weeks and today I noticed that it has badly discoloured and is more deep golden colour.

I wonder if it's counterfeit so I want to bring it to my local bank to ask them to check.

I was googling and found absolutely nothing on what a citizen should do when they think they've received a possibly counterfeit note.

But my bank is staffed with complete arseholes, I'm worried about what they could do, call the guards or blame me for possessing it?

What's the best thing to do here?
Thanks

TylerIE

Id say bring it to any bank for testing.

If you attempt to pass it in a shop while concerned about its legitimacy then the shop will almost definitely call the Gardai.

Did you check the three most obvious security features on it. The watermark that should be visible when you hold it up to the light. The line of foil down the middle which shouldnt tear if you tear a little into it shouldnt be possible to rip through it, the changeable foil line to the right, and IIRC between the thin centre line and the big word 50 there is a tiny rectangle 0.5cm across by 1cm down, it should be ever so slightly raised.

http://www.fleur-de-coin.com/eurocoins/security.asp has more details

blueythebear

lst wrote: »

Id say bring it to any bank for testing.

If you attempt to pass it in a shop while concerned about its legitimacy then the shop will almost definitely call the Gardai.

Did you check the three most obvious security features on it. The watermark that should be visible when you hold it up to the light. The line of foil down the middle which shouldnt tear if you tear a little into it shouldnt be possible to rip through it, the changeable foil line to the right, and IIRC between the thin centre line and the big word 50 there is a tiny rectangle 0.5cm across by 1cm down, it should be ever so slightly raised.

http://www.fleur-de-coin.com/eurocoins/security.asp has more details

If you bring it to the bank for testing and it is counterfeit, be prepared to lose out on €50.

TylerIE

blueythebear wrote: »

If you bring it to the bank for testing and it is counterfeit, be prepared to lose out on €50.

If he suspects its counterfeit its inappropriate for him to just try to pass it off in a shop, and may result in him getting at a minimum details taken by Gardai.

Im aware of once incident recently where lovely little old lady nearby recently had to wait for Gardai in a shop belonging to a national chain after she tendered a fake €5 note. There was no malice in the incident just it was store policy, and also quite distressing.

It may just be discouloured from fading or washing.

So.....
If its counterfeit hes lost out on €50. < note the full stop.

Zambia

Why did she have to wait. Did someone spear tackle her as she was heading for the fire escape? On the part of the store the waste of police time in that scenario is terrible.

TylerIE

They didnt restrain her or anything, but as someone who had handed them false currency in payment for goods they told her she would have to wait for the Gardai.

Its not a far cry from making off without payment / theft and its for the Gardai to investigate same (And to track the money) so its reasonable for the person to tendered it to be expected to wait.

And if someone is innocent one would expect them happy to assist in the investigation into whoever caused them to end up with worthless currency.

Our man in Havana

Expected to wait?

I would just walk out.

chucken1

[QUOTE=breathn;72844837]I had a €50 in my jeans pocket for a few weeks and today I noticed that it has badly discoloured and is more deep golden colour.

I wonder if it's counterfeit so I want to bring it to my local bank to ask them to check.

I was googling and found absolutely nothing on what a citizen should do when they think they've received a possibly counterfeit note.

But my bank is staffed with complete arseholes, I'm worried about what they could do, call the guards or blame me for possessing it?

What's the best thing to do here?
Thanks[/QUOTE]

I know I'll get a kick here but...how could you miss 50euro in your pocket for a few weeks?

blueythebear

lst wrote: »

If he suspects its counterfeit its inappropriate for him to just try to pass it off in a shop, and may result in him getting at a minimum details taken by Gardai.

Im aware of once incident recently where lovely little old lady nearby recently had to wait for Gardai in a shop belonging to a national chain after she tendered a fake €5 note. There was no malice in the incident just it was store policy, and also quite distressing.

It may just be discouloured from fading or washing.

So.....
If its counterfeit hes lost out on €50. < note the full stop.

I never actually suggested that he try to pass it on. I was merely informing the OP that if it is counterfeit, it is the duty of the Bank then to retain the offending note and to pass it on to the Gardaí with a view to ascertaining its' origin.

Mr Trade In

Go to a local supermarket, buy a bottle of Coke at the self service counter,if it works in the machine it is real,if not take it to a blonde cashier.

TylerIE

blueythebear wrote: »

I never actually suggested that he try to pass it on. I was merely informing the OP that if it is counterfeit, it is the duty of the Bank then to retain the offending note and to pass it on to the Gardaí with a view to ascertaining its' origin.

Ah ok, I should have made it clearer in my initial reply thats its essentially lost money if its fake!

TylerIE

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Expected to wait?

I would just walk out.

Which doesnt look too innocent and will result in the Gardai having to waste their time trying to track down your identity, when they could spend that time instead looking for the actual crooks.

Our man in Havana

I wouldn't give a toss how it looked. I would not wait for anyone.

Zambia

lst wrote: »

They didnt restrain her or anything, but as someone who had handed them false currency in payment for goods they told her she would have to wait for the Gardai.

Chances are she was old and frail anyone who was fit and of working age in any position of authority telling her that, would result in her feeling compelled to stay. Sounds like an arrest to me.

lst wrote: »

Its not a far cry from making off without payment / theft and its for the Gardai to investigate same (And to track the money) so its reasonable for the person to tendered it to be expected to wait.

Its a very far cry unless they have proof she knew it was fake. For example just tried to use it in the off licence was told it was fake then tried again in grocery. In essence the old lady is the fraud victim here as she was passed a fake 5 euro. The store have only had an attempted fraud. Yet have gone on to commit false imprisonment for the sake of that.

lst wrote: »

And if someone is innocent one would expect them happy to assist in the investigation into whoever caused them to end up with worthless currency.

True but a clever manager/Store Security would calmly explain what has happened, to the lady to one side. Ask for her name and contact details so he can pass them and the note on to the Gardai.
The Gardai can then investigate at liesure.

For a crime of this nature to be commited it should have a guilty act and a guilty mind in this case. I don't see the guilty mind.

This thread in the OP's instance would be proof he/she knew the note was not kosher. So if he/she did pass it then they commit the guilty act and the offence is complete.

TylerIE

Zambia wrote: »

Chances are she was old and frail anyone who was fit and of working age in any position of authority telling her that, would result in her feeling compelled to stay. Sounds like an arrest to me.

I agree she did feel compelled to stay.

True but a clever manager/Store Security would calmly explain what has happened, to the lady to one side. Ask for her name and contact details so he can pass them and the note on to the Gardai.
The Gardai can then investigate at liesure.

Whatever about telling someone to wait for Gardai, a store certainly would have no legal rights to demand the name and address, and proof of same, of a member of the public. I was referring mainly to the OPs situation, and gave a true example of the potential inconvenience he could face if found with a fake note, and hadnt intended a protracted discussion on same. Personally Id totally refuse to give any retail staff personal details in a situation like that - If they didnt call the Guards I would!

For a crime of this nature to be commited it should have a guilty act and a guilty mind in this case. I don't see the guilty mind.

This thread in the OP's instance would be proof he/she knew the note was not kosher. So if he/she did pass it then they commit the guilty act and the offence is complete.

Yes and its acceptable for store staff to allow Gardai to determine if there is a need to prosecute for intentionally defrauding, rather then the store itself doing so.

Zambia

lst wrote: »

Whatever about telling someone to wait for Gardai, a store certainly would have no legal rights to demand the name and address, and proof of same, of a member of the public. I was referring mainly to the OPs situation, and gave a true example of the potential inconvenience he could face if found with a fake note, and hadnt intended a protracted discussion on same. Personally Id totally refuse to give any retail staff personal details in a situation like that - If they didnt call the Guards I would!

I agree they have no power to demand name and address, they could ask. Once again this old lady is the victim here. If she does not want to give N&A, fair enough just let her. Chances are if they were raffling a car people give out those details at will. The power of arrest was never there.

lst wrote: »

Yes and its acceptable for store staff to allow Gardai to determine if there is a need to prosecute for intentionally defrauding, rather then the store itself doing so.

Yes but in the case described the store staff cant hold her for the Gardai.

Anyway I understand this is not the Crux of the topic but as an aside it is heavily linked in regards the consequences of using the $50.

The OP's original concern was what his bank might do if he produced a Fake 50.

Its an offence if you knowing it be fake pass it , no question.

So the 50 Euro question is, is it an offence to possess a Fake 50 Euro note?

NoQuarter

Walk into any bookies and ask them to test it with their counterfit pens. Again, if its fake your 50 will have a lovely black mark across it now.

Our man in Havana

NoQuarter wrote: »

Walk into any bookies and ask them to test it with their counterfit pens. Again, if its fake your 50 will have a lovely black mark across it now.

Probably the best solution if in doubt.

sweetafton

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Probably the best solution if in doubt.

Bookies... is there anything they can't do!

johnnyskeleton

Has no one yet suggested going to the gardai and informing them that you believe the note to be counterfeit? Far better to come out of the garda station with a red face than to have to wait in a shop all that time. Plus, if it genuinely is a counterfeit note, how you came across it might be of interest to the gardai.

TylerIE

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Has no one yet suggested going to the gardai and informing them that you believe the note to be counterfeit? Far better to come out of the garda station with a red face than to have to wait in a shop all that time. Plus, if it genuinely is a counterfeit note, how you came across it might be of interest to the gardai.

I had said that above and stated that thats why Gardai would want to speak to someone who used it in a shop, however we seem to be the only people who feel this way!

JohnK

blueythebear wrote: »

...I was merely informing the OP that if it is counterfeit, it is the duty of the Bank then to retain the offending note and to pass it on to the Gardaí with a view to ascertaining its' origin.

Well thats realistically what they should do but its not necessarily what they will do. About 5 years ago I sold my car for about €9,000 and the guy who bought it paid for it in cash, all €50 notes. When I went to lodge the cash the bank discovered one of the €50 notes was a rather bad forgery but they never took it just told me it was fake, demonstrated it with one of those pen things then just handed it back to me.

KingIsabella

Buy one of those plain magic markers, if its fake then the writing will come out black, if not then itll be darky yellowy.

source

Zambia wrote: »

I agree they have no power to demand name and address, they could ask. Once again this old lady is the victim here. If she does not want to give N&A, fair enough just let her. Chances are if they were raffling a car people give out those details at will. The power of arrest was never there.


Yes but in the case described the store staff cant hold her for the Gardai.

Anyway I understand this is not the Crux of the topic but as an aside it is heavily linked in regards the consequences of using the $50.

The OP's original concern was what his bank might do if he produced a Fake 50.

Its an offence if you knowing it be fake pass it , no question.

So the 50 Euro question is, is it an offence to possess a Fake 50 Euro note?

It is an offence to knowingly use said forgery, and is not for the store security guard to establish intent, that is for AGS and the courts to do.

I have personally been involved in a case where a woman in her 50's was trying to pass off a forgery in a shop. Woman looked like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, she had a stack of fake 50's in her house.

Just because the person is old doesn't make it okay to let them off if suspected of an offence.

In this instance using the fake €50 was an offence under Section 26 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 and is an arrestable offence, this means that the security guard is perfectly entitled to detain a person suspected of said offence under Section 4 Criminal Law Act 1997. Also unlike us, a security guard doesn't need to inform the person they're under arrest, they detain them and hand them over AGS as soon as practicable.

spurs1961

They will tell you if it 's hooky or not.

It's the only thing they do well given they failed to spot or current crisis

Zambia

foinse wrote: »

It is an offence to knowingly use said forgery, and is not for the store security guard to establish intent, that is for AGS and the courts to do.

Well not really to a degree they have to as there is no offence without it. If there is offence there is no power of arrest.

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.


So no intent = no offence , no offence = No arrest

4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.


In the case described yes the note has been produced but there is no evidence that they knew it was false or intentionally meant to defraud(none mentioned anyway). Like I said someone with very basic social skills would have handled this fine without any need for Gardai attendance.A reasonable person would simply come to the belief the old woman was passed a fake 5euro in change.

foinse wrote: »

Just because the person is old doesn't make it okay to let them off if suspected of an offence.

100 agree however I do feel its a factor in why the woman waited and possibly how she was conned if she was.

If I used a fake 5 euro unknowingly I would not be hanging around for your good selves. I would gladly hand it over and leave a contact number with the store should Gardai wish to speak with me.

jdooley28

JohnK wrote: »

Well thats realistically what they should do but its not necessarily what they will do. About 5 years ago I sold my car for about €9,000 and the guy who bought it paid for it in cash, all €50 notes. When I went to lodge the cash the bank discovered one of the €50 notes was a rather bad forgery but they never took it just told me it was fake, demonstrated it with one of those pen things then just handed it back to me.

€9000 cash!! You'd want to be mad carrying that amount of money around. I'd nearly €500 on me today was paranoid enough carrying that around

source

Zambia wrote: »

Well not really to a degree they have to as there is no offence without it. If there is offence there is no power of arrest.

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.


So no intent = no offence , no offence = No arrest

4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.


In the case described yes the note has been produced but there is no evidence that they knew it was false or intentionally meant to defraud(none mentioned anyway). Like I said someone with very basic social skills would have handled this fine without any need for Gardai attendance.A reasonable person would simply come to the belief the old woman was passed a fake 5euro in change.



100 agree however I do feel its a factor in why the woman waited and possibly how she was conned if she was.

If I used a fake 5 euro unknowingly I would not be hanging around for your good selves. I would gladly hand it over and leave a contact number with the store should Gardai wish to speak with me.

Okay, but the issue is how do we decide intent? By asking questions of the person suspected (interview, both informal and formal).The store staff are not trained investigators. As such when they reasonably suspect a person has committed an offence (the handing into the store of fake currency), they are well within their rights to hold the person until the arrival of AGS. Also it is not the staffs decision to make as to whether this person just got a dud 50 through a shop, or if they're manufacturing them.

The member will conduct an informal interview after caution in the store, and ask the relevant questions that will lead to a decision on whether or not they believe intent was present in that particular case. Only at that stage will the person "officially" become a suspect or victim. If suspect then back to the station under arrest for a formal interview, if victim, details taken and source of note taken, investigation continues.

Zambia

foinse wrote: »

Okay, but the issue is how do we decide intent?

By the actions of the person. Example being a bloke puts 600 euro worth of bacon in a holdall and walks right by the till and leaves a store. Its reasonable to assume his intent was to steal the bacon.

Like I said before if she tried to us it in one till was told its a fake then tried to use it in another till. Then the store has intent, they have the action of passing the note and they can sit on her as long as it takes AGS to arrive.

foinse wrote: »

The store staff are not trained investigators. As such when they reasonably suspect a person has committed an offence (the handing into the store of fake currency), they are well within their rights to hold the person until the arrival of AGS.

Yeah but in this case a reasonable person would assume the old lady just got a dodgy 5 euro from someone else. So they would not have grounds to hold the lady.

foinse wrote: »

Also it is not the staffs decision to make as to whether this person just got a dud 50 through a shop, or if they're manufacturing them.

But if they want to hold the person they have come to a decision other wise they cant arrest. They can either hold them for knowingly passing a fake 5 euro or let them go.

source

Zambia wrote: »

By the actions of the person. Example being a bloke puts 600 euro worth of bacon in a holdall and walks right by the till and leaves a store. Its reasonable to assume his intent was to steal the bacon.

Like I said before if she tried to us it in one till was told its a fake then tried to use it in another till. Then the store has intent, they have the action of passing the note and they can sit on her as long as it takes AGS to arrive.

Yes that would be a blatant display of intent. However the person who tries to pass it off and then walks out of the shop is no less guilty, and the intent is not as easily seen in this example.

Zambia wrote: »

Yeah but in this case a reasonable person would assume the old lady just got a dodgy 5 euro from someone else. So they would not have grounds to hold the lady.

Assumption is the mother of all fcuk ups mate, never assume anything is what I was taught in phase 2 and it's something that has helped me along so far in this job. To assume something and miss something because of that assumption is nothing short of negligence.

Zambia wrote: »

But if they want to hold the person they have come to a decision other wise they cant arrest. They can either hold them for knowingly passing a fake 5 euro or let them go.

They don't have to know for sure, they have to suspect that the person attempted to hand it in knowing that it was fake.

fencedin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Has no one yet suggested going to the gardai and informing them that you believe the note to be counterfeit? Far better to come out of the garda station with a red face than to have to wait in a shop all that time. Plus, if it genuinely is a counterfeit note, how you came across it might be of interest to the gardai.

genuinely a counterfeit note

genuine

counterfeit:D