Bus Engine ordered to be turned off during Journey.

ssaye

I was on Dublin Bus yesterday and halfway through the journey an Inspector got on and asked a mother to fold her buggy for Health and Safety Reasons. Fair enough. The mother said she cannot fold the buggy. (Someone offered to do it for her and she said it would break if you tried)

However, the Inspector ordered the driver to shut down the engine and the bus stayed stationary for 10-15 minutes. Eventually another passenger sat beside the buggy unfolded and held it for the Journey which the Inspector agreed to. My question is how long can a Bus Inspector stop a bus for?


Whats the procedure if a passenger refuses to comply, Ejection, Guards called and what recourse do the passengers have, if any, for the Bus being stopped for a significant period of time.

coylemj

I think you'll find that someone stumbled over an unfolded buggy and sued Dublin Bus so there is a new zero tolerance policy for fear of more cases going to court.

If a similar case arose in the future, DB would need to show that inspectors have gone out and implemented a new safety policy in order that potential litigants do not have a case for aggravated damages because DB were aware of the dangers but were doing nothing about it.

Depending on your view it is an inconvenience imposed on the general population caused by the greed of one individual who wasn't looking where he was going or a commendable health & safety policy that benefits us all, take your pick.

LXFlyer

In the Dublin Bus by-laws:

Each passenger shall comply with any lawful direction given him by an authorised person, including a request to leave or not to board the vehicle.

Enforcement Procedures
(a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws shall upon being requested so to do give his name and address to an authorized person who is an inspector, driver or conductor in uniform or who produces evidence of identity.

(b) The person aforesaid shall on the request of the authorised person remain in the company of the authorised person pending verification of the name and address.

(c) Where any such person refuses or fails to comply with a request under paragraph (a) or (b) of this Bye-Law or following such request such person gives a name and address which the authorised person has reasonable grounds for believing is false or misleading, such person may be detained by the authorised person until the arrival of a member of the Garda Síochána.

A member of the Garda Síochána may request a person—
(a) who has refused or failed to comply with a request under Bye-Law 58, or
(b) who following a request under that Bye-Law has given to the authorised person concerned a name and address that the latter has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, or
(c) detained pursuant to Bye-Law 58,
to give to the member his name and address and if the person refuses or fails to give his name and address or gives a name or address that the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, the member may arrest the person without warrant.

(a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or of attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws may be removed from the vehicle by an authorised person or a member of the Garda Síochána acting on the request of such authorised person.
(b) In the exercise of the power conferred on him under paragraph (a) of this Bye-Law an authorised person or member of the Garda Síochána may use such reasonable force as is necessary.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

In the Dublin Bus by-laws:

In reality though, instead of asking the person to leave the bus and making themselves the target of passengers anger/annoyance the inspectors and staff stop the bus until they achieve complience because this shifts the target of people's anger from them to the person with the unfolded buggy etc as nobody wants their bus held up for 10-20 minutes and the easiest way to get it going again is if the person with the buggy leaves, they look on the inspector or staff member as just doing their job and upholding company policy.


edit;not saying there is anything wrong with this way of handling situations, it works well i imagine where a bus is stopped until scumbags leave as they will see other passengers turn against them.

Red Alert

She should've been ejected from the bus immediately, without holding up other passengers, without a ticket refund. I'm fed up of buggy owners thinking that they can break the rules.

Bigcheeze

Red Alert wrote: »

She should've been ejected from the bus immediately, without holding up other passengers, without a ticket refund. I'm fed up of buggy owners thinking that they can break the rules.

Did a troll hack your account ?

lil5

Sounds just like a regular journey on DublinBus.

For starters - the first person in the wrong here was probably the bus driver because he either let a second buggy on the bus or a wheelchair customer wanted to get on the bus and the wheelchair bay was occupied by the customer with the buggy.

In the first scenario the bus driver should have told the customer with the buggy that she'd only be allowed to board the bus if she collapsed the buggy - if there is enough luggage space.

In the second scenario the bus driver should also have asked the customer with the buggy to collapse the buggy to allow the wheelchair customer on. (Not sure if the bus driver could ask the customer with the buggy to get off the bus if she refuses to fold it up and leave the wheelchair user behind? - the experts might find a bye-law for this ...)


As it happened the bus driver didn't do any of that (not his problem? common sense?) and when the inspector boarded the bus there were most likely either two buggies or a wheelchair user and a buggy occupying the wheelchair bay.

Now instead of sorting it out with the bus driver, the inspector decides to enforce the H&S rules and has a go at the customer with the buggy.

Standoff ensues and after much discussion, turning off the engine and inconveniencing the rest of the customers on the bus the journey is continued (without really sorting the H&S issue).

Whether the inspector was 'bye-law' entitled to do all what he did isn't really the question here.

Should the bus driver and the inspector have handled the situation differently in the interest of all their customers on board (the person with the buggy, the other people on the bus)?

stop

lil5 wrote: »

Sounds just like a regular journey on DublinBus.

For starters - the first person in the wrong here was probably the bus driver because he either let a second buggy on the bus or a wheelchair customer wanted to get on the bus and the wheelchair bay was occupied by the customer with the buggy.

In the first scenario the bus driver should have told the customer with the buggy that she'd only be allowed to board the bus if she collapsed the buggy - if there is enough luggage space.

In the second scenario the bus driver should also have asked the customer with the buggy to collapse the buggy to allow the wheelchair customer on. (Not sure if the bus driver could ask the customer with the buggy to get off the bus if she refuses to fold it up and leave the wheelchair user behind? - the experts might find a bye-law for this ...)


As it happened the bus driver didn't do any of that (not his problem? common sense?) and when the inspector boarded the bus there were most likely either two buggies or a wheelchair user and a buggy occupying the wheelchair bay.

Now instead of sorting it out with the bus driver, the inspector decides to enforce the H&S rules and has a go at the customer with the buggy.

Standoff ensues and after much discussion, turning off the engine and inconveniencing the rest of the customers on the bus the journey is continued (without really sorting the H&S issue).

Whether the inspector was 'bye-law' entitled to do all what he did isn't really the question here.

Should the bus driver and the inspector have handled the situation differently in the interest of all their customers on board (the person with the buggy, the other people on the bus)?

I'd say the highlighted section is where most problems arise.

There is a wagon who gets the 17 who held the bus up for 15 minutes as it was a non-low-floor bus, and she claimed her buggy couldn't be folded. She claimed she had requested that D'Brook put on a low floor bus on this particular sceduled duty so that it could take her buggy! Of course she saw it necessary to delay everyone else on the bus having a rant at the driver for using a non-low-floor bus. Of course the Driver should have told her where to go, and called gardai if she didn't move.

January

Red Alert wrote: »

She should've been ejected from the bus immediately, without holding up other passengers, without a ticket refund. I'm fed up of buggy owners thinking that they can break the rules.

With all due respect feck off, if there was no other buggy on the bus and no wheelchair user wanted to use the spot then a buggy is allowed to be put there, the rule is that the buggy has to be occupied though. If the buggy was unoccupied then the inspector had every right to tell the mother to fold it and she should have complied or put the child back in the buggy and sat with it for the duration of the journey.

FWIW, If I get on the bus with my two year old, I'll fold the buggy and sit with her on a seat. If I get on it with my one year old, she'll stay in the buggy, IF someone with a wheelchair or with a younger child gets on, I'll collapse the buggy and sit with her on my lap. Not everyone is inconsiderate.

dazberry

Something similar happened on the 51b/c last week, where two people got on with a child in a buggy. There was a person in a wheelchair already on the bus and when asked to remove the child from the buggy and fold it they refused, so the driver turned off the engine and we sat on Thomas Street for 10 minutes. The bus driver was nothing but polite to these people, who were on the other hand just rude and aggressive, and had no consideration for anyone else on the bus.

D.

meanmachine3

ssaye wrote: »

I was on Dublin Bus yesterday and halfway through the journey an Inspector got on and asked a mother to fold her buggy for Health and Safety Reasons. Fair enough. The mother said she cannot fold the buggy. (Someone offered to do it for her and she said it would break if you tried)

However, the Inspector ordered the driver to shut down the engine and the bus stayed stationary for 10-15 minutes. Eventually another passenger sat beside the buggy unfolded and held it for the Journey which the Inspector agreed to. My question is how long can a Bus Inspector stop a bus for?


Whats the procedure if a passenger refuses to comply, Ejection, Guards called and what recourse do the passengers have, if any, for the Bus being stopped for a significant period of time.

T.B.H. here we dont have the full picture of what actually happened and as the thread goes deeper posters are just generalising and jumping to conclusions on what may have happened. these days it would be far worse publicity wise to have a female with a buggy removed from a bus on the grounds of refusing to fold it than let her carry on. but at the same time it does not give anyone the right to refuse to follow any instruction from any employee of D.B.

coylemj wrote: »

I think you'll find that someone stumbled over an unfolded buggy and sued Dublin Bus so there is a new zero tolerance policy for fear of more cases going to court.

If a similar case arose in the future, DB would need to show that inspectors have gone out and implemented a new safety policy in order that potential litigants do not have a case for aggravated damages because DB were aware of the dangers but were doing nothing about it.

Depending on your view it is an inconvenience imposed on the general population caused by the greed of one individual who wasn't looking where he was going or a commendable health & safety policy that benefits us all, take your pick.

as a bus driver my main concern would not be someone tripping over the buggy but rather some gob****e cutting up the bus, me hitting the brakes to avoid a collision and in doing so sending one or more buggies flying.

January wrote: »

With all due respect feck off, if there was no other buggy on the bus and no wheelchair user wanted to use the spot then a buggy is allowed to be put there, the rule is that the buggy has to be occupied though. If the buggy was unoccupied then the inspector had every right to tell the mother to fold it and she should have complied or put the child back in the buggy and sat with it for the duration of the journey.

FWIW, If I get on the bus with my two year old, I'll fold the buggy and sit with her on a seat. If I get on it with my one year old, she'll stay in the buggy, IF someone with a wheelchair or with a younger child gets on, I'll collapse the buggy and sit with her on my lap. Not everyone is inconsiderate.

fair play to you january but unfortunately your one in a very small few that actually would fold the buggy if a wheelchair user got on at the next stop.
i have in the past had women refuse to fold her buggy's for a wheelchair user on the grounds that they was on the bus first. alot of you may agree with the buggy women, but spare a thought here. in most cases it's easy for a buggy to be folded and baby to be put on lap. whereas a wheel chair user cannot fold their chair and take a seat. then on more than one occasion i have informed a person getting on with a buggy that theres already one there and it must be folded only to be completely ignored.in fact this is quite common for buggy's to be pushed on the bus and drivers to be blatantly ignored.
P.S. as a general rule,a wheelchair does take priority over a buggy.

The_Wrecker

The space is taken up on a first come first served basis, you can ask a buggy user if they can fold for a wc but they can refuse. If it gets difficult, inform control as its beyond the driver duty and Inspectors take charge.

thomasj

The_Wrecker wrote: »

The space is taken up on a first come first served basis, you can ask a buggy user if they can fold for a wc but they can refuse. If it gets difficult, inform control as its beyond the driver duty and Inspectors take charge.

I'm on a low floor bus at the moment standing in that area and there is a sign it states:

" this priority space is for a wheelchair user. It may be used for an occupied buggy.

Please be prepared to vacate this space if requested"

meanmachine3

The_Wrecker wrote: »

The space is taken up on a first come first served basis, you can ask a buggy user if they can fold for a wc but they can refuse. If it gets difficult, inform control as its beyond the driver duty and Inspectors take charge.

thomasj wrote: »

I'm on a low floor bus at the moment standing in that area and there is a sign it states:

" this priority space is for a wheelchair user. It may be used for an occupied buggy.

Please be prepared to vacate this space if requested"

for many years the goal posts regarding this rule has been changed from one to the other. there was a case taken by some one from the equality crowd which found in favor of " first come first served" case. but over the last year or so this rule has now gone in favor of the wheel chair user. yes there are good arguments to be made for both sides but at the end of the day a baby will have someone to help them with their needs every time whereas in the vast minority of cases the same can only be said for wheelchair users and in this rarity it's only to get them on and off public transport. so if there was a problem between a buggy and wheelchair ,where the buggy user refused to fold the buggy then the driver was quite entitled to request assistance. no doubt we will never get the full facts of this case ,for i'm about to throw a spanner into the works. you dont need a working ramp to get a pram/buggy or whatever you want to call it onto a bus. if theres no working ramp ,chances are (99%) a wheelchair wont be able to get on a bus therefore the wheelchair user could be waiting hours.
you honor i rest my case

AlekSmart

thomasj wrote: »

I'm on a low floor bus at the moment standing in that area and there is a sign it states:

" This priority space is for a wheelchair user. It may be used for an occupied buggy.

Please be prepared to vacate this space if requested"

Sheesh,this is becoming a hoary old chesnut sure 'nuff.

Thomasj,the clues are in the rather insipid phraseology of the second sentence.....

For the intent of the Disability Prioritization to be enforced it should read.....

"Customers MUST fold and stow buggies and vacate the space if it is required by a wheelchair bound or disabled passenger"

The element of compulsion MUST be there for ALL to see as the current "nicely nice" situation is not working to anybody's benefit,particularly the disabled.

As the LAW currently stands a disabled passenger has NO automatic enforceable right to a disabled specific space on a bus.

If a wheelchair user presents for travel and an occupied buggy is occupying the "disabled" space,the Driver "Must be heard to request" that the buggy be folded and stowed to enable the wheelchair user to board.

However that ends the Drivers role in prioritizing the disabled,as the "request" may be declined and that ends the matter.

In such a situation the Driver must inform the Disabled person that they cannot be carried and also inform Central Control in order to ascertain the location of a suitable alternative bus.

This scenario can happen,it does happen and will continue to happen until the Equality Agency accepts that where conflicts between the principles of "Equality" and "Disabled Priority" occur,the Disabled person is taken as having the greater entitlement.

As it stands,Dublin Bus's legal responsibility is the provision of the relevant "Disabled Specific" space along with the means to access that space.

Dublin Bus staff have no power to ensure that the "Disabled Space" is actually reserved or provided to a disabled person.

It's all so rendolent of "An Irish solution to an Irish problem " :rolleyes:

As to the OP's description of the incident,I'm afraid that there is nowhere near enough detail to allow any judgement to be made.

I can only speak from personal experience that the entire issue of carrying occupied buggies continues to provide a very large degree of unpleasantness,selfishness and quite often serious lack of concern for the safety of infants being carried in these things.

There are very good reasons for the single occupied buggy rule,and for that single buggy to be facing in the correct direction (child facing rearwards),with the brake ON and under adult supervision for the duration of the journey.

I can only surmise that in the OP's case the Inspector was sufficiently concerned at the level of risk to take the action described...I can categoritically state that DB Inspectors,as a rule,will be most reluctant to delay any service unnecessarily.

I remain incredulous at the,often total,disregard shown for the safety of children in buggies by supposedly responsible adults.

For my own part as a Driver,I will not have any such responsibility shifted onto my shoulders if the relevant Parent/Guardian is not prepared to act in a reasonable manner to ensure the safety of their own child.

foggy_lad

I remain incredulous at the,often total,disregard shown for the safety of children in buggies by supposedly responsible adults.

I was at a bus Eireann stop a while ago in Portlaoise at the blue bridge where two women one with twins and the other with one child in buggys both had their children on the roadway directly in the path of any bus pulling in! The stop is right next to a busy roundabout so drivers have a limited view when pulling into the stop! I mentioned this danger to the eastern european woman with twins who immediately pulled the buggy back on the footpath in horror but on telling the other woman of African origin she threw her eyes to heaven and turned away from me leaving her child in mortal danger. I'm sure both women are loving parents but some see danger while others may see a compensation opportunity?

If I was a driver I would not allow anyone with a buggy onto the bus.

Run_to_da_hills

Buggies are fine with me on the bus, its the screaming kids that come with them that object to.

DWCommuter

The 22 bus trundling along the South Circular road towards Drimnagh, circa 1979. Buggies, prams, shopping trollies, old ladies and gents, young ladies and gents. The conductor smiled. The driver smiled. The inspector smiled. We had no cars, but we functioned. When did we decide that public transport should encourage car use?

LXFlyer

DWCommuter wrote: »

The 22 bus trundling along the South Circular road towards Drimnagh, circa 1979. Buggies, prams, shopping trollies, old ladies and gents, young ladies and gents. The conductor smiled. The driver smiled. The inspector smiled. We had no cars, but we functioned. When did we decide that public transport should encourage car use?

Yes but the mothers all had folded their buggies and weren't aggressively pushing them onto the bus (not that they could of course!).

holidaygirl

I've been following this thread with interest, I'm not from Dublin and have only used Dublin bus a handful of times and the last time was several years ago.

As a mother now though I'm genuinely intrigued by all this, and would actually be completely put off having to use a bus, I'll stick to the car. Now don't get me wrong of course I understand that wheelchair passengers need to be accommodated, and I would see no problem with someone been asked to fold a buggy if they were travelling with someone and the child was old enough to be held safely. However I also feel there is a genuine case for someone travelling with a young baby.

Can I ask (and it may seem silly to those that use buses regularly) if someone is travelling with a baby in a buggy with no other adult, would someone assist him/her to fold a buggy/hold a baby if the space was required for a wheelchair passenger. I know I would actually be anxious leaving a stranger hold my child even for a very short period of time, but if someone could close the buggy I'd gladly let them. So we'll say the person managed to get over that, does this then lead to someone else been asked to give up a seat (if none available) for the person with the baby? I actually wouldn't really consider it very safe for a young baby to be held for a journey, I would feel they would be safer in their buggy with the brake on, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Or even if the luggage compartment was full, would the person with the buggy be expected to get off the bus?

January

It's hit or miss whether someone would help you with the child or not... I've had help sometimes, and others nobody offered to help. Don't think the bus driver is officially allowed to leave the cabin to help either... although some have when I was even getting onto the bus folding the buggy with the older child...

monument

It's worth keeping in mind:

Larger prams with newborns in moses basket-type tops be hard to fold and imposable store on buses -- because of their size they don't fit anywhere, mothers who have had c-sections should not be lifting them for at least six weeks, and the mother will have to hold the baby too if she's on her own.

With a c-section, being on your own and tying to mind your newborn, mobility can be as impaired as some -- not all -- people with disabilities. Push chairs with older children in them who can walk are a different story altogether.

But at the same time, yes, there are some aggressive mothers out there. I've heard from the other half of one or two times people pushing their children on buses before her even when she had clearly arrived at the bus stop first.

Also, from my experience, people don't give you any space to manoeuvre -- people walking on front of you as you're moving and the people standing in the passage way are much worst when you have a pram. So, while I won't condone aggression, I understand where it can come from.

meanmachine3

first of all while we dont know the full facts of the opening post this is actually a good thread from a drivers, parents and wheelchairs user point of view and it would be nice to see this one kept clean and going on.
january just to clarify what you said about us leaving the cab. under no circumstances are D.B. drivers allowed to leave the cab especially to help with the movement of buggies or wheelchairs.some drivers do but most dont for insurance and disciplinary purposes. the same goes for passenger rows etc but thats another thread that no doubt will be brought up.
theres lots of different equations we come up against daily when dealing with buggies/ wheel chairs and each driver is different when dealing with these. whilst i have never had any buggy removed from the bus i have once or twice used threats of either the guards or inspectors and in these cases it was to do with the childs welfare. one that stands out is i had one young mother who put her buggy and new born baby into the space ,sat behind the buggy and had a full blown conversation on her mobile while leaving the buggy unattended. in the end she knew where she stood with me and the call was promptly ended. if push came to shove she would've been removed.
as alek pointed out all we can do is request the person with buggy to do what is necessary at the time. then after that it's a judgement call. if i'm in a local housing estate and a second buggy gets on and if they're only going a few stops i will allow that second buggy on without being folded again a judgement call. but as a general rule one open and two closed again this for H&S. reasons. but one of the most annoying things is people getting on using their buggies as shopping trollies with or without a baby knowing quiet well it'll be nearly impossible to fold it with the amount of shopping.

Jehuty42

monument wrote: »

It's worth keeping in mind:

Larger prams with newborns in moses basket-type tops be hard to fold and imposable store on buses -- because of their size they don't fit anywhere, mothers who have had c-sections should not be lifting them for at least six weeks

Then maybe those mothers who need to take public transport shouldn't be buying such awkward infeasible buggies- revolutionary concept, I know, but bear with me here.

monument

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Then maybe those mothers who need to take public transport shouldn't be buying such awkward infeasible buggies- revolutionary concept, I know, but bear with me here.

It's because of enough transport planners, management and staff people have that kind of attitude about this and other issues that many people don't bother with Irish public transport.

Why do you think they buy such? Why do you think people put new born babies in carry cots?

Jehuty42

monument wrote: »

It's because of enough transport planners, management and staff people have that kind of attitude about this and other issues that many people don't bother with Irish public transport.

Why do you think they buy such? Why do you think people put new born babies in carry cots?

It is your choice to have a baby and there are responsibilities involved in making that decision. You have 9 months to plan for dealing with the added hassle, make alternative travel arrangements, think about what kind of buggy is appropriate, and so on. If after that you still end up getting a huge all mod-cons "McBuggy", an SUV of the buggy world, don't then act entitled to the world moving to accommodate you.

There is nothing wrong with current bus equipment and policy. The problem is the entitled, mothers who cause the hassle.

January

monument wrote: »

It's because of enough transport planners, management and staff people have that kind of attitude about this and other issues that many people don't bother with Irish public transport.

Why do you think they buy such? Why do you think people put new born babies in carry cots?

Obviously babies need to lie flat for the first few months of it's life, but if a mother knows that she is going to be travelling regularly on public transport then there are alternatives to the carry cot type pushchairs, there are lie flat pushchairs that you can get that don't need a carry cot and would be much easier to fold.

meanmachine3 - I knew that the drivers weren't officially allowed to leave the cab and believe me, I'd understand the reasons for not leaving it, especially if there's an inspector about! The one thing I do know is that in the early days, if I had to get around with the baby on the bus, I'd put her in the carseat and attach it to the buggy, there for all I had to do in the event of someone else needing to use the space, is take the car seat off the chassis and fold it and bring the car seat to the seat with me and hold it tight while the bus was moving... Saved a lot of hassle with trying to hold the baby and trying to fold the buggy without trying to look for help off other people!

monument

Jehuty42 wrote: »

It is your choice to have a baby and there are responsibilities involved in making that decision. You have 9 months to plan for dealing with the added hassle, make alternative travel arrangements, think about what kind of buggy is appropriate, and so on. If after that you still end up getting a huge all mod-cons "McBuggy", an SUV of the buggy world, don't then act entitled to the world moving to accommodate you.

Again: It's because of enough transport planners, management and staff people have that kind of attitude about this and other issues that many people don't bother with Irish public transport.

Jehuty42 wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with current bus equipment and policy. The problem is the entitled, mothers who cause the hassle.

Did I say there was?

Although the NTA seems to have reason for thinking there is:

From 2030 Vision: "10.2.5 Bus fleet all scheduled buses on services procured by the authority will be fully wheelchair accessible, with boarding arrangements, seating and internal layout addressing the needs of all passengers. Wheelchair space and storage space for prams, buggies, shopping and luggage will be provided."

AlekSmart

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Then maybe those mothers who need to take public transport shouldn't be buying such awkward infeasible buggies- revolutionary concept, I know, but bear with me here.

There's more than a morsel of truth in Jehuty42's post here.

One of the aspects of modern (Irish) society,which is now starting to be regarded as a contributory factor in the rather comprehensive collapse of great chunks of it,was/is the preoccupation which the lumpen proleteriat placed upon big,shiny,things...."stuff" of many varieties.

DWCommuter alludes to an earlier time here...

The 22 bus trundling along the South Circular road towards Drimnagh, circa 1979. Buggies, prams, shopping trollies, old ladies and gents, young ladies and gents.

One of the major dfferences in terms of mobility with chizzlers would be the predominance of the "Go-Car",which was a lightweight almost toy-like item which could be folded with the flick of a wrist,whilst the babby was safely dangled from the other.

Prams,on the other hand were quite the status symbol,particularly a Silver-Cross with de-luxe suspension and chrome accoutrements...however they tended to be reserved for occasions of note rather than trips on the 22....

Motherhood was somewhat different too in many ways,with the extended family and neighbours still playing a large role in the early weeks and months of a new babys travel arrangements.

Todays new mother will generally be far more mobile and at a far earlier point than back in the Black n White days,when "Confinement" as a term had far more meaning than it does today.

However,times move on and it's only right'n proper that folks do the same..sadly however many have used the wealth of the Tiger Era to attempt an Americanization process based upon a BIGGER is always better presumption.

First and foremost must come a realizatition and acceptance that there has to be some limit upon the size,arrangement and complexity of a Buggy,if it is to be used regularly on ordinary scheduled public transport.

My belief is that whatever the size of the space provided for them,the buggies will simply continue to expand like Topsy to fill that space until,at some point the entire space on a bus is taken up with a stretched-limo of a buggy containing a tiny bemused baby lost somewhere within.

I believe that just as An Post has something called POP (Post Office Preferred) as a sizing guide for letters and packages which it can accept for ordinary mail use,then so too should there be a PTP (Public Transport Preferred) size and structure for childrens buggies.

I'm quite certain that given enough motivation the Bus Design industry and the Childrens Buggy manufacturing industry could design and manufacture an individual lightweight and easily folded buggy which would be branded and marketed as a BusBuggy or somesuch...This concept could be jointly promoted,with a highly discounted purchase price available for example to Rambler or T90 ticket holders or other promotional groups as may be considered.

At the moment our highly unified Bus Design struggles to cope with an almost infinite number of Buggy designs,sizes and configurtations,many of which are simply incompatible with ANY form of mass public transit.

Before I finish however I have,yet again to doff my cap to my old pals the Filipino's who constantly prove to me that there are few insurmountable problems in using the Bus which cannot be solved by just using yer head,having a willingess to co-operate and an understanding of what the PUBLIC bit of Public Transport is all about...WEll done you Folks !!

TommyTippee

it's no wonder ireland finds itself in the position it is in now where a mother and child gives some lazy moron driver a bull**** excuse to hold uppublic transport for fifteen minutes. It is truly a disgrace that the capital city's commuters are treated with such contempt by these useless cretins. There isn't a bus user here who doesn't have a similar tale. A disgrace.

-Chris-

TommyTippee wrote: »

it's no wonder ireland finds itself in the position it is in now where a mother and child gives some lazy moron driver a bull**** excuse to hold uppublic transport for fifteen minutes. It is truly a disgrace that the capital city's commuters are treated with such contempt by these useless cretins. There isn't a bus user here who doesn't have a similar tale. A disgrace.

A little OTT with the language Tommy. Please re-think your posting style and choose your words more carefully before posting in C&T again.

bmaxi

In the 70s, people wouldn't even consider tavelling on a bus with the huge unwieldy machines you constantly fall over today, it just wasn't practical. For very young children there were detachable carrycots where the wheeled base then folded down. Of course, in the 70s most mothers also had a husband to help them, today's young women only seem to want help in the conception area, the taxpayer does the rest.
I say fair play to the inspector for making the stand, most of our problems in every field are caused by non enforcement of the rules, so I commend him for doing it.

foggy_lad

Way back then in the 70s and 80s women stayed at home generally and were housewives/homemakers. they would take the bus into town for shopping but not with a newborn baby, during the first few months all their shopping would be for groceries and would be done locally at the corner shop, there were very few spar and centra's back then! they would have help arranged from family and neighbours to mind other children etc if they needed to go to hospital for anti natal appointments etc and people were altogether a lot more courteous back then towards others and also a lot more respectful of those in authority and also of themselves.

monument

As foggy_lad says the world has changed since the 70s.

People move around more, people are not near relatives, and if public transport does not get that there's little hope of getting more and more people to move away from car use. And everybody in public transport has to get that -- everybody from drivers to inspectors to CEOs and directors.

If bus drivers and other staff can't understand the need of passengers then it's another mark against buses and another reason to build more Luas lines, combined with Metro and Dart.

January wrote: »

The one thing I do know is that in the early days, if I had to get around with the baby on the bus, I'd put her in the carseat and attach it to the buggy, there for all I had to do in the event of someone else needing to use the space, is take the car seat off the chassis and fold it and bring the car seat to the seat with me and hold it tight while the bus was moving... Saved a lot of hassle with trying to hold the baby and trying to fold the buggy without trying to look for help off other people!

That may have suited you but many people have to take longer trips -- with the bus only being part of the way. A car seat isn't suitable for a new born for long -- they are not meant to be in them for a long time. Car seats also aren't that good at keeping the elements out -- from the rain and cold to sun light.

People who don't have cars may not have car seats. We have one be we it's a hand-me-down and does not fit into the buggy.

monument

bmaxi wrote: »

Of course, in the 70s most mothers also had a husband to help them, today's young women only seem to want help in the conception area, the taxpayer does the rest.

Yes, because single mothers are the only ones who ever have to take public transport without their partners around. :rolleyes:

bmaxi

monument wrote: »

Yes, because single mothers are the only ones who ever have to take public transport without their partners around. :rolleyes:

Simple solution to that, keep your knees together.

January

bmaxi wrote: »

Simple solution to that, keep your knees together.

Oh come on, be serious, I'm not a single mother and I have to get the bus, my partner works and I don't drive. Am I supposed to sit in the house all day acting like the perfect little housewife, don't think so.

monument, I was taking long trips, babies can be in their car seat for up to two hours at a time, she was never in there for longer than that, because she was out being fed, or being changed, or being given attention to in between the bus journeys. But like I said, it's not rocket science, if you know you're going to be using public transport a lot when you are pregnant and in the newborn stages, don't buy a big bulky buggy!

bmaxi

January wrote: »

Oh come on, be serious, I'm not a single mother and I have to get the bus, my partner works and I don't drive. Am I supposed to sit in the house all day acting like the perfect little housewife, don't think so.

monument, I was taking long trips, babies can be in their car seat for up to two hours at a time, she was never in there for longer than that, because she was out being fed, or being changed, or being given attention to in between the bus journeys. But like I said, it's not rocket science, if you know you're going to be using public transport a lot when you are pregnant and in the newborn stages, don't buy a big bulky buggy!

The whole jist of the thread is the inconsiderate behaviour of people who bring huge prams onto public transport, by your own observation you obviously don't fall into that category.
You don't fall into the second category either for which I prescribed the solution.

Victor

bmaxi wrote: »

In the 70s, people wouldn't even consider tavelling on a bus with the huge unwieldy machines you constantly fall over today, it just wasn't practical. For very young children there were detachable carrycots where the wheeled base then folded down. Of course, in the 70s most mothers also had a husband to help them, today's young women only seem to want help in the conception area, the taxpayer does the rest.
I say fair play to the inspector for making the stand, most of our problems in every field are caused by non enforcement of the rules, so I commend him for doing it.

bmaxi wrote: »

Simple solution to that, keep your knees together.

You might ease off on the generalisations and condescension.

bmaxi wrote: »

Of course, in the 70s most mothers also had a husband to help them

Partners aren't there 24x7. Given that something like 25% of bus passengers have some mobility impairment (disability, age, children, luggage, etc.) allowances need to be made to create an inclusive society.

monument

Carry-cots are fairly standard for newborns. It's bloody crazy that I have to defend the use of them. As the National Transport Authority policy talks about, buses must suit the needs of people.

From the thinking in this thread, I'm surprised that there isn't even higher car use in Ireland... No wonder people with babies or just generally avoid Dublin Bus, this thread kind of makes me want to start driving!

I'm not even sure what the issue is. Both myself and the other half would move off the bus or fold up the buggy if somebody with a wheelchair tried to get on.

bmaxi wrote: »

The whole jist of the thread is the inconsiderate behaviour of people who bring huge prams onto public transport,

Did you hear the one about the pot calling the kettle black? :rolleyes:

It's sad to think that there's a good chance you're not trolling and that you're not a teenager.

parsi

bmaxi wrote: »

In the 70s, people wouldn't even consider tavelling on a bus with the huge unwieldy machines you constantly fall over today, it just wasn't practical. For very young children there were detachable carrycots where the wheeled base then folded down. Of course, in the 70s most mothers also had a husband to help them, today's young women only seem to want help in the conception area, the taxpayer does the rest.
I say fair play to the inspector for making the stand, most of our problems in every field are caused by non enforcement of the rules, so I commend him for doing it.

Wow what a generalisation. Maybe she was on a free travel pass as well and then she'd have ticked all the boxes in your Daily Telegraph bull**** bingo ?

What we do have here is someone who didn't really care too much about other people. One of the "rights but no responsibilities" brigade and they are scattered all across society as we are finding to our cost. The banker in the sharp suit was screwing the system as much as your hypothetical post-70s woman.

bmaxi

Only a matter of time before the bleeding heart liberal brigade got going. Pay me the courtesy of interpreting the context of the posts before patronising me.

-Chris-

OK, everyone dial it down a notch (possibly even two). Can we discuss civilly this without attacking each other?

parsi

Possibly we should have one bus for the guys travelling around Ireland on their free passes.

Then we should have a bus for those who are paying their way but have encumbrances such as buggies (and this is such a dose for everyone).

We can follow up by having a bus for commuters who are also paying their way.

I know as a commuter buggies drive me up the wall. As a parent buggies are necessary and I hate the way people go out of their way not to help (though we got a lot of help in the Paris metro). How do we square that circle ?

More importantly as a responsible citizen I hate the way folk sometimes go out of their way to be odd and obnoxious to their fellow citizen, most of whom are just trying to get through the daily grind.

bmaxi

The bottom line is. If the rules were routinely enforced, as was the case here then the problem of fraudulent use of free travel passes, which some people find it necessary to constantly harp on about, would disappear.
Who knows, it might even lead to a new lease of life for C.I.E roadfreight, somebody's going to have to carry all those shoulder chips around,
couldn't have them blocking up the aisles on our new, extended bus service.

monument

bmaxi wrote: »

The bottom line is. If the rules were routinely enforced, as was the case here then the problem of fraudulent use of free travel passes, which some people find it necessary to constantly harp on about, would disappear.
Who knows, it might even lead to a new lease of life for C.I.E roadfreight, somebody's going to have to carry all those shoulder chips around,
couldn't have them blocking up the aisles on our new, extended bus service.

Come off it, you really need to work on your trolling and be more selective about it.

Or maybe all those holes in your story could be explained because you really are a misguided Daily Mail or Telegraph reader?

Irish Rail could make billions from freight taking all those trucks off the road which would be carrying your shoulder chips!

bmaxi

monument wrote: »

Come off it, you really need to work on your trolling and be more selective about it.

Or maybe all those holes in your story could be explained because you really are a misguided Daily Mail or Telegraph reader?

Irish Rail could make billions from freight taking all those trucks off the road which would be carrying your shoulder chips!

I'd reply if anything you said made sense.

monument

bmaxi wrote: »

I'd reply if anything you said made sense.

Thanks for proving you're a troll.

Everybody else -- it's best not to feed the troll.

-Chris-

Can we keep this thread to buggies/wheelchairs etc, and leave the free travel pass/freeloaders/welfare cheats arguments for another thread?

bmaxi

monument wrote: »

Thanks for proving you're a troll.

Everybody else -- it's best not to feed the troll.

If possible, even less sense.
My post was on topic and referred to issues and prejudices voiced elsewhere.

-Chris-

It's dealt with, leave it alone.