Legal rights returning pistols

King John The Last

So these are my dealings with cartronix in galway.
30/4 bought Army R17
All guns come with at least 6 months guarntee.
It never worked proprely and kept getting worse.
3/5 returned it
5/5 told that I had lost a clip inside it (which I didnt) and they would order it in. They also said not to open any guns but it is impossible to set the hop-up without opening it and the manual tells you how to open it.
About a week later they were still having problems and I was granted a credit note. I didnt ask for a refund.
13/5 bought Cybergun Desert Eagle full auto version worth 180
Got about 12 mags out of it before it broke. the rubber that holds the BB in place was loose.
26/5 returned it. He implied I was tampering with them (cheek of him) and sent it to cybergun. I said I wanted my money back. He said it would still have to be sent away. He said he would have it back in 10 days.
22 days later and no word. I will call him again this evening.

What should I do?

Firekitten

Legally, its your word against his... you say you didnt tamper, he says you did. Impossible situation...

However, full auto cybergun desert eagle worth 180? I think you're being had at this place...

fayer

Standard rights, you are entitled to repair, replacement or refund in that order.

mikeyod123

i would try get ur money back and leave that rip off shop alone. theyre all idiots in that place :mad: dont go to corrib airsoft either theyre just as bad

walther

In my opinion a lot of their stock is very overpriced.
20€ for asg silicon oil.
Tokyo Marui FN 5-7 for 279€.

King John The Last

I knew they were expensive, but I bought it there for the warranty, silly me.:(

King John The Last

fayer wrote: »

Standard rights, you are entitled to repair, replacement or refund in that order.

Since it worked for a bit though can I still get a refund?

Christian.Kelly

King John The Last wrote: »

Since it worked for a bit though can I still get a refund?

You're in you're rights I reckon, You bought the D. eagle and there's something wrong with it.
taken from the "sale of goods and supply of services act 1980
Your rights as a consumer are that the:
*Products should be of a merchantable quality
*fit for their purpose
*as described
*as per sample
The seller has to:
*ensure these rights
*Any signs or statements which try to take away the consumers rights (ex:no refunds)

Bit of other stuff but these parts of the act protect you as the Pistol wasn't of merchantable quality as it broke, wasn't fit for its purpose(playing/shooting).

You are entitled to a repair, replacement or a refund in that order. So if it's not fixed when it's back you''re entitled to a replacement and if that broke, a refund(not a credit note, a cash refund)
Hope this helps a bit

King John The Last

Yes I think goods were not of a merchantable quality

King John The Last

Christian.Kelly wrote: »

You are entitled to a repair, replacement or a refund in that order. So if it's not fixed when it's back you''re entitled to a replacement and if that broke, a refund(not a credit note, a cash refund)
Hope this helps a bit

Ok I called him half an hour ago. It is back and he says fixed. When I said I wanted my money back (again) he said he would call me back and hung up.

When handing it in I said I wanted my money back and he said it would still have to be sent away. It is fixed now but can I still demand my money back?

Shiva

King John The Last wrote: »

When handing it in I said I wanted my money back and he said it would still have to be sent away. It is fixed now but can I still demand my money back?

You can try, and if you're adamant you want a refund, he might give in.

But the whole repair, replace, refund thing is a bit vague - a lot of the decision making as regards to which option to take resides with the retailer. In typical Irish legalese, it's worded that it can only be repaired a "reasonable" amount of times before he has to replace or refund - but reasonable isn't defined. And then he gets to choose whether to replace or refund.

King John The Last

I thought it was up to me wheather I want a repair, replacment or refund.

Shiva

King John The Last wrote: »

I thought it was up to me wheather I want a repair, replacment or refund.

Yeah, most people think that, but it's up to the retailer unless there's a specific agreement in place. There's a pretty good consumer rights site knocking about that gives good info - I cant remember it offhand, but Google for it and narrow the results down to sites in Ireland and you should find it easily enough.

King John The Last

I got that idea from junior cert business studies.

Shiva

King John The Last wrote: »

I got that idea from junior cert business studies.

I've just had a quick look, and I can't find anything to say the consumer has the choice, but it also doesn't say the retailer does. So it's a bit vague.

The only advice I can give you is to firmly, but politely, dig your heels in and ask for the refund again - he might agree if you persist.

EDIT: I've just read it again, and to be honest, vague as it is, it would appear to lean in his favour. It only says if it's repaired and breaks again, you "might be in a better position to ask for a refund".

Have a read yourself - http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Guides-to-Consumer-Law/Shopping/faults.html#repairs

bullets

Shiva wrote: »

The only advice I can give you is to firmly, but politely, dig your heels in and ask for the refund again - he might agree if you persist.

Speaking of digging in heels....gentle reminder about sorting out me please.

~B

Shiva

bullets wrote: »

Speaking of digging in heels....gentle reminder about sorting out me please.

~B

Yeah, sorry B - be back to you Monday evening with that list and options, I promise. I was pulled every which way this week, but its my first job Monday morning, guaranteed.

Christian.Kelly

King John The Last wrote: »

Ok I called him half an hour ago. It is back and he says fixed. When I said I wanted my money back (again) he said he would call me back and hung up.

When handing it in I said I wanted my money back and he said it would still have to be sent away. It is fixed now but can I still demand my money back?

If it's fixed, you cant ask for the refund. The idea is that if the gun is working you shoudn't have to be refunded for it.
If it's fixed, Keep it. If it breaks again soon you can return and say "It's been repaired, it's broke again, I am entitled to a replacement or refund acording to the sales of goods and supplies of services act 1980(get the year right)"
You cant chose what he gives you(repair, replacement or refund) but I think if one doesnt work you can ask for another (so if the repaired gun doesnt work bring it back and ask for replacement or refund)

$kilkenny

I work in shoe shop here in kilkenny (yes how ironic for a young lad to sell shoes) anyway if someone comes in with a damaged item or faulty item or if the size they bought doesnt fit(in your case that doesnt matter) but in the other cases we offer no refund only a credit note or an exchange.unless it is a low amount say under 6 euro then we offer a refund...
i think its part of a shops charter or something that you go by when it is set up but it might be same way in your shop

Rhinocharge

Citizens Information Consumer Rights

About halfway down the page : If things go wrong

Best of Luck.

King John The Last

Apparently, my junior cert business is wrong. That must be why I am bad at business:pac:

King John The Last

It broke again :mad::mad::mad: I am seriously pissed now. I accepted the repair. I will be heading over to him today.

TheDoc

As said above the decision lies with the retailer.

When an item is defective or faulty the retailer can

Repair
Replace
Refund

And it usually goes in that order unless its a rather large retail chain.

In terms of him saying you've opened it, just say you havnt. He cant prove you have, you cant prove you havnt either, but just continue to say you have not opened the item.

Remember that a warranty is between you and the retailer, and that is contracted by your receipt. Your 6 month warranty is not with the manafacturer, its with the retailer.

I would advise , as Shiva said, request a refund for the entire amount you have paid as the items are overpriced, poor quality and the retailer is giving you the run around.

If this fails I'd advise getting in touch with that office for consumer rights, youd be suprised how effective they are, genuinely one of the best government departments I've ever dealt with, really good people i nthere.

Reding from your posts and the thing about junior cert business, I'm assuming your of a relative young age, no offence but I'd say your man is having a right laugh at your expense if your a young fella.

Next time go in with a parent and get yourself sorted.

On a rather embarassing note, I bought a suit in Debanhams there in January for over €200. The suit had some use at a wedding and a few job interviews and started to tear around the trouser leg.

I was kinda " sure its months old and been used loads so they wont do anything".

Mother went in this morning and received a FULL refund onto my Laser Card. Offered a replacement on the suit, or a choice of a higher value suit. Took the refund and will buy a different type of suit.

Thats good service in my book, there was no questions or messing guy literally agreed a suit like that should last alot more then a couple of wears.

se conman

Do Debanhams do camo ???? LOL

Arkslippy

Yes they do.

horgan_p

I'd eat my hat if it got sent back to Cybergun.Lets just say the postage would outweigh the cost price of the pistol.
From my dealings with it the Army brand can be shall we say hit and miss at times.
To be honest if I'd sold one that went wonky after a week , money back or replacement - it's a lemon (which happens).
And Customers choice is what we always went with.Most people appreciate the service and come back.

Its just not worth the bad publicity over a pistol which cost less than €50.

King John The Last

I am 15 and I always brought a parent with me. It was sent for repair today. That is all the information I have. "The boss" was not in and apparently employees cant do anything like refunds/replacements without him.

King John The Last

I am told that it costs him €18 to send it. I am not fully sure he sends it to Cybergun. I have a sneaking suspicion that he sends it to hobby airsoft but I dont know that.

Salaas

I had a simular situation as this not to long ago.
Had a AEG that developed a issue.
I gave it to the retailer and he sent it in for repair, recieved it back and it had the exact same issue.
I work dealing with stuff like this each day so I'm rather lax with any issues I have as I know the problems people have with it so I sent it in for repair two more times and the problem persisted each time and the last time it came back with even more problems at which point I decided it someone was taking the mick.

I contacted consumer rights before going in and getting the issue sorted and found that

Under consumer rights if the retailer repairs the product and the issue persists then you are allowed to choose between a replacement or a refund, not the retailer.

Now I decided to get a replacement and got a ICS thats worked marvelously and is very easy for me to maintain so I don't have to go near the repair man for the shop who I just don't have any faith in.

Also any shop that displays the no refunds note and refuses to give a person a refund under any circumstances can get in alot of trouble for that as it is infringing on the statuary rights.
There is something in regards to Sale items but it still cannot infringe on your basic rights as a consumer.

I highly second the advise of contacting consumer rights as they are the best to help with advise and cover all the points with you.

Faolchu

according to consumer connect

Q1. What are my rights in respect of faulty goods?


The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980 gives legal rights to consumers in their dealings with retailers and service suppliers. The Act empowers consumers to take action for themselves. Most issues under the Act are civil legal matters to be dealt with between the parties to the contract.
Under the Act, goods should be:

• Of merchantable quality - the goods are of an acceptable standard
• As described - false or exaggerated claims must not be made by the seller
• Fit for intended purpose - be fit for the purpose they were bought for
• Correspond to the sample

Where goods do not conform to the above criteria, you are entitled under the Act to seek a repair, replacement or a refund.
The legislation does not specify whether it is the retailer/supplier or the customer who chooses the form of redress to be offered.
However, if a repair is offered and accepted, then it should be permanent. If not, and the same fault occurs again, then the buyer is entitled to seek another form of redress from the list.
You can also reject the retailer/supplier's offer if you wish to seek another form of redress. If you do, you may have to take the matter to the courts to have it resolved.

So in teh OPS case they accepted teh offer of repair, that repair was not permenant as it has broken a number of times again so they should be entitled to a refund or replacement. personally considering the runaround you're being given I'd take my money elsewhere and demad a refund and i wouldnt accept any BS about the "boss not being here" I would assume that as they are a retailer they have to be able to offer refunds at all times not just when the owner is present. if they try that crap tell them to get him on the phone or get him to come in coz you're not leaving til you get your money back. your parents with you causing a stink in the store while other customers are there listening in will most probably change their attitude soon enough.

King John The Last

They got him on the phone and he said send it back. Same story first time. "Causing stink in the store while other customers are there listening" might not work because ive never been there at the same time as another customer (I wonder why).

I dont know how relevant this is but I might as well finish the story. When I got it back from repair for the first time, the front post(sight) was missing. I was back in the shop half an hour after leaving. He seemed a bit suspicious of me but he said he would send me out a front post. Got it about a week later and was reasonably happy with that. He said that the front of it had been replaced and the repairer forgot to reattach the front post.

Faolchu

King John The Last wrote: »

They got him on the phone and he said send it back. Same story first time. .

as in send it back for repair? why you have had it repaired a number of times and the repair is not permenant so you don't have to accept this any more.

you are entitled to a replacement or refund. I'd be demanding a refund based on their poor customer service. the info i posted earlier is direct from consumer affairs you accepted a repair it didnt work so are entiled to a replacement or refund. maybe threaten the small claims court if they dont refund you. it only ciosts €15 to file. basically you head to the SCC and fill in the paperwork and give a statement of events, they contact the other party and get their side of events and make a judgement. a lot of the time simple notification of a small claims is enough to resolve matters.

King John The Last wrote: »

"Causing stink in the store while other customers are there listening" might not work because ive never been there at the same time as another customer (I wonder why)..

I'd make sure i was, saturday afternoons are probably very busy times for retailers

everlast75

Faolchu wrote: »

as in send it back for repair? why you have had it repaired a number of times and the repair is not permenant so you don't have to accept this any more.

you are entitled to a replacement or refund. I'd be demanding a refund based on their poor customer service. the info i posted earlier is direct from consumer affairs you accepted a repair it didnt work so are entiled to a replacement or refund. maybe threaten the small claims court if they dont refund you. it only ciosts €15 to file. basically you head to the SCC and fill in the paperwork and give a statement of events, they contact the other party and get their side of events and make a judgement. a lot of the time simple notification of a small claims is enough to resolve matters.






I'd make sure i was, saturday afternoons are probably very busy times for retailers

I'd head in with a few mates, separately of course, then have them act disgusted when the conversation kicks off!*

* warning.. tell your friends not to ham it up!

Salaas

The best time to get good results for yourself is to head in there when there is either a game starting or when there are alot of people there.
The retailer is be under pressure then and will want to resolve it quickly and not discourage his other customers.

But if he still sticks his heels in do as the others said and don't accept anything less than a replacement or refund. And look into small claims possibly.

King John The Last

@ Faolchu, what would be the best time to file a complaint, now, before the pistol comes back (not) repaired, when it comes back and he tells me that he wont replace/refund or is it how now that I missed my opportunity before it was sent off do I have to wait until it breaks again?

Faolchu

King John The Last wrote: »

@ Faolchu, what would be the best time to file a complaint, now, before the pistol comes back (not) repaired, when it comes back and he tells me that he wont replace/refund or is it how now that I missed my opportunity before it was sent off do I have to wait until it breaks again?

what condition is it in now and who has it?

if it's broke and in your posession, basically dont hand it over, go into the shop and demand a refund under the sale of goods act. for these reasons:
A) not of merchantable quality - it broke/keeps breaking
the repair is not permenant - under the 3 Rs of Repair, Replace, Refund the repair must be a permenant fix. as a consumer you shouldnt be expected to keep coming back to get something fixed. also refunds should be in teh method payment was made, so if you paid in cash you get cash back. Do not accept a credit note coz basically the guy still has your money coz you have to use that credit note in his store so either way he sells you something


So if its broke now and in your posession go and demand a refund, if he says it has to be repaired tell him to stick it that you'll let the courts handle the matter from now on and leave with the pistol and file in the SCC, detail all conversations, dates etc in the matter. it'll cost you something like €15. what ever you do do not hand it back to him to keep until you get your cash back.


If you have handed it over to be repaired then you'll have to wait for it to be returned and if it doesnt break again ie the fix is permenant then there's nothing you can really do. But if it does break again then basically demand a refund and if you dont get it head to the small claims court asap

Small Claims contact details in Galway are here (I assume as the retailer is in galway so are you). are you under 18? if so just check to see if you will need to get a parent to file on your behalf

King John The Last

I handed it into him

Faolchu

King John The Last wrote: »

I handed it into him

ok no problem. As it stands you can’t file in the SCC. when you get it back test it fully if it fails first thing to do is send the feckers and email outlining the whole timeline, ie first pistol broke, given a replacement it to broke it was repaired, it broke again X number of times, each time you requested a refund you were denied etc. ask one final time for a full refund quoting the sale of goods act (merchantable quality/suitability for its intended use) keep it calm, professional and to the point, you can also send via registered post (it cost about €5, keep a copy of the letter for your records) or Fax if they have a fax number and have the fax machine print a delivery receipt to prove the it was delivered. keep copies of any replies you receive,. so basically you want it document that you have had a litany of issues and the store just kept repairing it and never gave you your money back even though you asked for it. this will show that you have tried to reasonably resolve the issue by allowing a repair without the matter being resolved. that will go in your favour.


in your letter state you'll arrive in the store on X day (say 6-7 days from the day you post and make it a Saturday which will probably be their busy day) to pick up your refund and return the damaged item. this gives them the option to respond a tell you they will give a refund or that you're not getting the refund (if they phone to say that, write down what they say and ask them to put their response in writing) then head in on the day you said you would and ask for a full refund don’t take any BS or offers of credit notes/replacements etc.

if they continue to dick you about file in the SCC, it may take a few weeks, basically you file in court. they write to the other party looking for a response. they usually give them something between 20 and 45 days to respond I can’t remember, if the party responds and disputes the claim the courts can mediate a solution or look at the "evidence" and make a judgement so make sure you have any and all paperwork to prove you went back and forth, copies old delivery dockets, receipts, any repair slips that came back, phone bill to show you made contact etc. this makes it look like you have been reasonable in your efforts to resolve the matter.
if they fail to respond, the courts issue judgement in your favour if they then fail to abide by the judgement the courts will send in the sheriff on your request, you pay for the sheriff to go in and if I remember right are refunded that part of the cost. Again the sheriff is something like €10.
So you pay your €15 filing fee and any postal costs/fax costs etc, if you are awarded judgement and still don’t receive your money you again attend the court and request an enforcement, this cost a small amount. what happens is the sheriff turns up at their place of business and takes goods or cash equal to what you are owed plus their cost and refunds you the costs you paid (sheriff costs not court costs) plus what you are owed. or something likes that. it’s been a good 10 years since I used the SCC but that the short of the process.


again if you're under 18 your parents may have to do this for you as you are a minor.

once you have your cash vote with your feet, the online Irish retailers only charge a small fee (something like €10) for shipment in most cases or a sliding scale based on bulk and probably have a larger selection

King John The Last

Thanks for making everything perfectly clear for me. I had heard of the small claims court but didnt know anything about them. Great description of the process.

Faolchu

thats from memory like i said it's been a while since i had to use it and even then it was a last resort after trying to resolve it face to face.

just make sure you have all your ducks in a row, all your paperwork to backup what you say and you should be fine.

the most important thing to remember once this is all over is never give the guy your custom again unless you're absolutly desperate. for the sake of maybe €20 in shipping costs the hassle is not worth it.

King John The Last

Faolchu wrote: »

the most important thing to remember once this is all over is never give the guy your custom again unless you're absolutly desperate. for the sake of maybe €20 in shipping costs the hassle is not worth it.

I hear you on that.

munster_mafia

If I bought something brought it home and took it out if the box and didn't work those that mean I don't get a refund and have to get it repaired?

King John The Last

@munster_mafia where did you get it?

Faolchu

munster_mafia wrote: »

If I bought something brought it home and took it out if the box and didn't work those that mean I don't get a refund and have to get it repaired?

the law states really states is that you are entitled to a repair, replacement or refund. it doesnt place a specific order on the three.

Some retailers will immediatly offer a refund (or credit note) for your item or something of similiar value, others will offer a replacement, others will want to have it repaired.

I'm not 100% on whether you can refuse a repair, I'm pretty sure you can't but am open to correction. however if the repair is not permenant then you are entitled to a refund or replacement. you do not have to keep letting them try to repair it. I assume this is because if the first repair did not resolve the issue then it is obviously not of merchentible quality/fit for use.

as i said earlier

also if they try pawn you off and send you to teh manufacturer

ConsumerConnect wrote:

If I have a problem with faulty goods, where should I go to?


When you make a purchase, your contract is with the seller of the goods and if there is a problem with the product it is up to the seller to put things right.

However, depending on the nature of the product and the problem arising with it, you may find it more convenient to deal directly with the manufacturer.

This could arise, for example, where call out arrangements need to be made with the servicing staff of the manufacturing firm.

In such circumstances, you should make it clear to the company from which you purchased the product that your contract is with them.

Dealing directly with the distributor/manufacturer does not exempt the seller from their obligations if their further involvement is required.

ConsumerConnect wrote:

Q1. What are my rights in respect of faulty goods?


The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980 gives legal rights to consumers in their dealings with retailers and service suppliers. The Act empowers consumers to take action for themselves. Most issues under the Act are civil legal matters to be dealt with between the parties to the contract.

Under the Act, goods should be:
Of merchantable quality - the goods are of an acceptable standard
As described - false or exaggerated claims must not be made by the seller
Fit for intended purpose - be fit for the purpose they were bought for
Correspond to the sample

Where goods do not conform to the above criteria, you are entitled under the Act to seek a repair, replacement or a refund.

The legislation does not specify whether it is the retailer/supplier or the customer who chooses the form of redress to be offered.

However, if a repair is offered and accepted, then it should be permanent. If not, and the same fault occurs again, then the buyer is entitled to seek another form of redress from the list.

You can also reject the retailer/supplier's offer if you wish to seek another form of redress. If you do, you may have to take the matter to the courts to have it resolved.

Faolchu

@ king John

Question 5 on this page would be relevant to your situateion

Salaas

Faolchu - They are allowed one attempt to fix the issue. If the repair does not stick then you can refuse it getting repaired and the retailer has to agree to either a replacement or refund then because as you said it proves it is not of merchantable quality.

King John The Last

OK, I went in to the shop 2 days ago. They had got it back unfixed. I asked questions and was told that 2 polish (they stressed the fact that they were polish) Cybergun employees based in Carlow that dont have a name and cannot be contacted by the public because they have poor english fix all their returns and those of another 12 Irish shops. They never returned a Desert Eagle in 3 years that and this made me ask if they knew what to do with desert eagles (they are clearly unconventional). That is when they told me 12 other shops dealt with them and others would have sent them (carlow) broken desert eagles.
It wasnt fixed because of a shortage of parts. The "repairers" included a note (in good english) that the problems were caused by an extended service life (bought in May, spent well over half its life in repairs) and by being improperly reassembled after takedown. This is the second time they said that and they were the only ones to disassemble it since, meaning they did it wrong. This is why I question their competence. The shop offered to hold onto it until parts were available but I refused. It is now in my possession broken. I recon I should send them an e-mail stating that if they dont agree to refund me I will file a complaint in the SCC in 72 hours. Does that sound like a good idea?

se conman

Bull"cough"ite , how thick do they think the public are.

Steve

Haven't read the whole thread KJTL but I'd send them a letter (not an email) stating all the facts above and giving them a fixed time period (5 working days) to respond with how they plan to comply with the terms of the Sale of goods act.

Consumer issues forum would be better for this thread, I could fire it over there if you want?

King John The Last

Yes, move it please, it will probably do better over there:)

Faolchu

I'd agree with steve in that a letter is better than an email because if you spend €5.50 you can register the letter and then have proof of delivery so they cant claim to not have received it. Get a receipt from the post office for the registered letter and include the cost of this and any subsequent communications in your complaint to the SCC.


Send the registered letter to the store addressed to the owner, but also send a copy of that letter to the registered address of the company for completions sake. the registered address is available the CRO here basically just put the name of the shop in the field provided, select both as the type and click search. it will bring a list of companies up, it should also include a location click on that and you'll get the registered business address.

include a complete history of events remembering to include any dates and times and also dates you have used it (if at all) then offer them 14 days to respond with a full cash refund under the terms of the sale of goods act. make sure to inform than that you will no longer accept repair or replacement as this matter has gone on too long, that you offered them the option to repair and they failed to do so on a number of occasions and feel that you are fully entitled to a full cash refund to the value of the price you paid at the time of purchase (remember to include the purchase price coz the price may have changed since you bought it).

Then inform them that that should they fail to respond within 14 days that they should consider themselves as on notice that you intend to take legal action (use the words on notice). Don’t mention the small claims court as the avenue you plan on taking. leave it a vague as possible in relation to the steps you plan on taking, that way they can’t prepare, they will expect a letter from a lawyer which they can act the maggot on by taking their time to respond. instead they'll receive a notice from the courts it might frighten the crap out of them.

Make sure you kep a copy of the letter you send to them and any other correspondences and provide copies to the courts as evidence. When you deal with the courts ask them for a time frame, they usually give the other side something like 30 days to respond. Once that has expired contact the courts again and get an update. If they fail to respond to the courts then ask the county clerk (think that’s his name) how you proceed, basically they will ask you to come to court (it’s an office not a big court room) you swear on the bible that you gave the whole truth and have not received a refund etc and they make a judgement. Chances are they will issue in your favour especially if they have not received a response, they then send the sheriff out at your expense and a few weeks down the line you get a refund from the Sheriff which should include the fees paid to the sheriff.