"Why Feminism is so afraid of it's flaws" - The Guardian.

Eve_Dublin

You probably don't want to have another discussion on Feminism as it does tend to get a bit heated but just drawing your attention to this article. It definitely struck a cord with me and I think the journalist was brave to write it, particularly in such a Lefty paper as The Guardian...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/15/feminism-afraid-of-its-flaws

Dudess

The flaw with this is the assumption of "feminism" as one blanket ideology though - it fails to acknowledge that there are differing types of feminism, varying degrees of "militancy" (when there's any in the first place): e.g. there are feminists who are pro-porn and feminists who are anti-porn, and then the feminists who occupy the rather vast landscape in between. In America, during the Women's Lib era, hatred of porn, albeit for different reasons, united two absolute foes under any other circumstance: militant feminists and conservative christians.

Some would argue Margaret Thatcher was kind of a feminist, while she - I'm admittedly guessing - would no doubt rather gouge out her eyeballs than be seen as a proponent of feminism. Ditto Anne Coulter.

So feminism is rich and complex - it's not one list of ideologies that every subscriber must comply with or they run the risk of losing the title "feminist". It may have started out as a set of specific theories, but it has evolved infinitely since then.

I think this article, while well meaning and making some reasonable points, also caves into the "Oh 'the feminists' [take note: the 'the' is mandatory] always wanting x, y and z" mindset that, as well as sounding a bit simple, doesn't take into account the many, many variables to feminism. It is not correct to say that any feminist or any woman with feminist tendencies would be appalled at e.g. a woman saying she would prefer to give up working when she has children, or that she's pro-life - that's a pretty ignorant and narrow view to have of feminists (she says, as if that's a foreign concept :pac:). Seeing as choice is a central tenet of feminism, anyone who feels women should not give up work when they become mothers, that they should be pro-abortion (I'm not using "pro-choice" for reasons that belong in another thread) seems rather anti feminist IMO. While the article goes somewhat against the grain of The Guardian, I don't think, in general, the writer is being brave either (what's there to be afraid of? I read quite a bit of speculation regarding these menacing feminists aplenty, I've yet to encounter them), I think a woman who voices a feminist point of view is the brave one. And I can see why many women are afraid to use the term in relation to themselves - not just because of the association with man-haters (amazing how even intelligent people gleefully leap to make said simplistic association) but because of the abuse they'll get.

It means different things to different people too - for some, it's even kinda redundant in the western world, and gender-based discrimination should be highlighted whether it's faced by women or men. The latter would be my personal take but I still obviously appreciate what feminism helped bring about, and I detest ignorance surrounding even today's feminism.

Also, someone might have feminist views but does not want to refer to themselves as a feminist because that implies such views define them, when they are only one part of their ideological make-up.

An aside: in relation to the horror women are experiencing in other societies, I think feminism is secondary, in terms of importance, to human rights. The brutality they endure, while gender-based, would revulse any right-thinking person, feminist or not.

Eve_Dublin

Dudess wrote: »

An aside: in relation to the horror women are experiencing in other societies, I think feminism is secondary, in terms of importance, to human rights. The brutality they endure, while gender-based, would revulse any right-thinking person, feminist or not.

+1 Impossible to argue with that. In fact any discussion on Feminism seems trivial after reading what I've read about the plight of women worldwide in the past few days. I suppose we're in a lucky position to be debating such things...

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

+1 Impossible to argue with that. In fact any discussion on Feminism seems trivial after reading what I've read about the plight of women worldwide in the past few days. I suppose we're in a lucky position to be debating such things...

I thought the whole vibe on feminism is that is asserts/acknowledges that whatever a culture a woman exists in she is always second status within that culture. So while, western women benefit more than non western women, that each within their social frameworks and structures are still secondary to their male counterparts within that culture.

Dudess

I think focusing on the downtrodden people of those societies (even if women, overall, have it worse) is fair. Not all of the men are patriarchal brutes - many hate how they are expected to treat women.

Eve_Dublin

Dudess wrote: »

I think focusing on the downtrodden people of those societies (even if women, overall, have it worse) is fair. Not all of the men are patriarchal brutes - many hate how they are expected to treat women.

I think you could spend all day deciding what it should be called...a human rights issue or a Feminist issue and waste a lot of time in doing so...is it really that important to give it a title?

Morag

There are still double standards which effect women only and while that is the case then I don't think the need for feminism will go away.

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I think you could spend all day deciding what it should be called...a human rights issue or a Feminist issue and waste a lot of time in doing so...is it really that important to give it a title?

It kind of is. Feminist found themselves up it when it comes to Islam and women. Because feminists tend to me left types with all this tolerance for multiculturalism, they don't know what to do when it comes to Islamic women. They are caught between two ideological stools.

Dudess

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I think you could spend all day deciding what it should be called...a human rights issue or a Feminist issue and waste a lot of time in doing so...is it really that important to give it a title?

Eve_Dublin

Dudess wrote: »

Didn't mean to quote you...just making a general comment.