Anybody offering Work Experience in I.T./Business discipline?

beanok77

Just looking to gain some practical experience in IT. I have basic office skills, (no formal training) in word, excel, powerpoint. I work full time during the day in business administration but I would be willing to work nights and weekends in order to gain some experience. Anybody looking for someone please reply or pm me.

Thanks

Delancey

I can't help thinking that you will struggle to get the experience you seek at nights or weekends , is there no way you could get such experience with your current employer ?

beanok77

Delancey wrote: »

I can't help thinking that you will struggle to get the experience you seek at nights or weekends , is there no way you could get such experience with your current employer ?

No. The job I am in is more administration. I use Outlook, word, excel, powerpoint most days but I have never received formal training in either. Maybe a course would be a better option but I'm in my mid 20's and have done 4 years of college already. (Buisness Studies Degree). The thought of exams is off putting because I have done so many!

I will look into some formal training courses hopefully find something practical.

Where do you start when you don't know where you are at? i.e. have a good grasp of computers but not certified!

Thanks for the reply.

Oranage2

beanok77 wrote: »

No. The job I am in is more administration. I use Outlook, word, excel, powerpoint most days but I have never received formal training in either. Maybe a course would be a better option but I'm in my mid 20's and have done 4 years of college already. (Buisness Studies Degree). The thought of exams is off putting because I have done so many!

I will look into some formal training courses hopefully find something practical.

Where do you start when you don't know where you are at? i.e. have a good grasp of computers but not certified!

Thanks for the reply.

ECDL covers all those modules - it's pretty easy and you probably wont learn anything new

beanok77

Oranage2 wrote: »

ECDL covers all those modules - it's pretty easy and you probably wont learn anything new

yeah sure that's why I want to do a course! To learn nothing new!

I'd like to add to the skills I already have not just rest on what I have already learned. I heard ECDL is pretty easy alright but I'd like to challenge myself, thanks.

the_syco

Look into doing a "City & Guilds" cert? http://www.cityandguilds.com/int-home.html

They do them in Ireland as well.

beanok77

the_syco wrote: »

Look into doing a "City & Guilds" cert? http://www.cityandguilds.com/int-home.html

They do them in Ireland as well.

Thanks. Will do.

maglite

ECDL Advanced May be an option.

Or buy a book on Excel and go for it. "O'Reilly Excel hacks" as a start.

beanok77

Can anybody advise me if doin ECDL courses can improve my chances of getting employed in the IT sector. I want to learn a broad range of I.T. skills and make myself more employable to I.T. companies.

Cuddlesworth

Microsoft offer more specialized exams for its office suite rather then the general ECDL exams, MOS exams. If you are looking on getting into more of a hardware/application support role there are a few others paths you can take.

Cuddlesworth

beanok77 wrote: »

Can anybody advise me if doin ECDL courses can improve my chances of getting employed in the IT sector. I want to learn a broad range of I.T. skills and make myself more employable to I.T. companies.

Where exactly do you want to go? You can start by splitting between working in a IT support role and a development or coding role? You obviously need some coding skills within the second job role. Both roles themselves can be broken up or split between them depending on the job and skills required.

If you want to work in a support role then starting with a couple of MOS exams and a A+ and N+ exams from Comptia. They all cost around 100-150 per exam to do, all can be self taught. These would help you get into a helpdesk or level 1 support role. From there depending on how good you are and how fast you learn(both on the job and in exams/self learning) you have a good career path outside of the obvious management roles.

beanok77

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Where exactly do you want to go? You can start by splitting between working in a IT support role and a development or coding role? You obviously need some coding skills within the second job role. Both roles themselves can be broken up or split between them depending on the job and skills required.

If you want to work in a support role then starting with a couple of MOS exams and a A+ and N+ exams from Comptia. They all cost around 100-150 per exam to do, all can be self taught. These would help you get into a helpdesk or level 1 support role. From there depending on how good you are and how fast you learn(both on the job and in exams/self learning) you have a good career path outside of the obvious management roles.

Hey,thanks for the advice. I will look into everything you mentioned. Is there anyway of doing the mos courses in a classroom? Are they really better than ECDL. I find ECDL more attractive as they offer classroom based learning and I probably will be rewarded with a cert after it rather than having to print my own. I know the mos service is probably alot more practical but I think I will perform better in a classroom.

Thanks again. I'm hoping to get into a course for August/September. Really appreciate the advice. Again I would stress I have no formal training just some college experience with MS office and same in my current job.

amen

I want to learn a broad range of I.T. skills and make myself more employable to I.T. companies.

hmm in general IT companies want Developers, Project Managers, IT Architects etc.

Normally you have a degree (maybe a M.Sc) for the developers and experience for the test.

I think you will find it impossible to get an IT Job with an ECDL or the MOS Exams. A Degree in Comp Sci or related discipline such as Engineering/Physics/Maths is required.

I'm trying to put you off but more to make you think before you spend a lot money on courses that may not get you a job.

If you want to learn programming nothing to stop you using lot of the free
on line tutorials.

beanok77

amen wrote: »

hmm in general IT companies want Developers, Project Managers, IT Architects etc.

Normally you have a degree (maybe a M.Sc) for the developers and experience for the test.

I think you will find it impossible to get an IT Job with an ECDL or the MOS Exams. A Degree in Comp Sci or related discipline such as Engineering/Physics/Maths is required.

I'm trying to put you off but more to make you think before you spend a lot money on courses that may not get you a job.

If you want to learn programming nothing to stop you using lot of the free
on line tutorials.

Hey, thanks for the reply. I agree to a point but there are alot of companies who just look for Business Studies Graduates (e.g: Microsoft, Accenture, Bearingpoint, Banks, Paypal, Google, Facebook and so on) I have applied to most these places and made it to the final stages in some of them. They only require a 2.1 degree in Business,Computers orFinance. I am a business studies graduate.


I don't think Business Analysts require a comp science qualification either because I have applied for some graduate roles in this area and they only required a degree.

What would a Business Analyst be required to do on the job and what I.T. skills do they learn on the job. How can I get certified with these skills without having the Business Analyst job?

Also do you have any links to these free programming tutorials?

thanks again.

Cuddlesworth

You can do training sources, google "MOS course Dublin". They really are basic subjects though. If buying the self paced training book and working through it are not your thing I would be wary of a career in IT since even good company's will only really send you on one or two courses a year after you have been there a long time. IT is a constant changing field and to actually progress you need to be studying all the time on your own time.

As for the difference between the ECDL and the MOS exams, its night and day. The ECDL is a very very basic course and the MOS is intermediate to expert. From a IT support point of view, a ECDL means you are on par with the most technological illiterate worker now days.

Cuddlesworth

amen wrote: »

hmm in general IT companies want Developers, Project Managers, IT Architects etc.

Normally you have a degree (maybe a M.Sc) for the developers and experience for the test.

I think you will find it impossible to get an IT Job with an ECDL or the MOS Exams. A Degree in Comp Sci or related discipline such as Engineering/Physics/Maths is required.

I'm trying to put you off but more to make you think before you spend a lot money on courses that may not get you a job.

If you want to learn programming nothing to stop you using lot of the free
on line tutorials.

Differentiating between IT support and Development. Its not all the same.

beanok77 wrote: »

Hey, thanks for the reply. I agree to a point but there are alot of companies who just look for Business Studies Graduates (e.g: Microsoft, Accenture, Bearingpoint, Banks, Paypal, Google, Facebook and so on) I have applied to most these places and made it to the final stages in some of them. They only require a 2.1 degree in Business,Computers orFinance. I am a business studies graduate.


I don't think Business Analysts require a comp science qualification either because I have applied for some graduate roles in this area and they only required a degree.

What would a Business Analyst be required to do on the job and what I.T. skills do they learn on the job. How can I get certified with these skills without having the Business Analyst job?

Also do you have any links to these free programming tutorials?

thanks again.

Business Analyst is a go word for a hundred different jobs. Depends entirely on the job you are going for. Most involve basic administration, others require in depth knowledge of various tech.

beanok77

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You can do training sources, google "MOS course Dublin". They really are basic subjects though. If buying the self paced training book and working through it are not your thing I would be wary of a career in IT since even good company's will only really send you on one or two courses a year after you have been there a long time. IT is a constant changing field and to actually progress you need to be studying all the time on your own time.

As for the difference between the ECDL and the MOS exams, its night and day. The ECDL is a very very basic course and the MOS is intermediate to expert. From a IT support point of view, a ECDL means you are on par with the most technological illiterate worker now days.

Appreciate the responses. But isn't buying a the training book and working through it still informal training? If I went for an interview and the employer asked me what IT skills do I have I can hardly say I taught myself or can I ? I'm not against studying on my own and actually enjoy finding out more about computers I just think you could pick up more in a classroom by interacting and bouncing things off some of the other students, also could possibly meet some potential job prospects.

gline

beanok77 wrote: »

If I went for an interview and the employer asked me what IT skills do I have I can hardly say I taught myself or can I ?

If you said to an employer that you studied yourself and paid for the test and got a qualification on your own time, that would actually sound pretty good.

IMO ECDl is a waste of time, it is for people that really dont know how to use computers properly, if you have a degree already and use computers in your job you are already too advanced for it

doncarlos

beanok77 wrote: »

Can anybody advise me if doin ECDL courses can improve my chances of getting employed in the IT sector. I want to learn a broad range of I.T. skills and make myself more employable to I.T. companies.

Nobody would employ you at the minute with no experience or no qualification I'm afraid when somebody with experience and/or qualification can be hired for the same price. We are turning down graduates and people that will work for free as we don't have the time or resources to train them

Would agree with the previous poster about ECDL. It's a great thing to have on a CV and I'd recommend it to anyone to do but it will not be any advantage in an IT environment. A course I would recommend when starting out would be the A+ certification.
http://certification.comptia.org/getCertified/certifications/a.aspx

kippy

Just to join in here.
As mentioned already, you do need to clarify what type of experience you are looking for. When someone says IT to me, I assume they are speaking about a Support role of some kind - but it could also mean, programming, networking, web design and a hundred other areas and indeed a mix of all.

If you plan on getting into support (with your educational background) you are going to have to accept the fact that you are going to need more training and certification. You can of couse self study most of the professional certs, Microsoft,Cisco, Comptia etc and take these exams yourself. Most employers look very favorably on this.
ECDL really isn't something they look for in a support role, of course its handy to have but it really isnt major.
You may have to get some college qualification in IT as well - it is something a lot of organisations require now. You may be able to do something part time (not sure how well you could use your existing qualifications to get into something.) Perhaps look at the open university or something like oscail.ie for info.


Classroom learning is expensive (especially the Microsoft/Cisco/Comptia stuff (up to €3000 for a course no longer than 5 days in some cases). That said it is usually very good but you can learn and pass exams on your own.

In the mean time, you dont really have any IT Support background or education and wouldnt really be a good candidate to take on, even for a bit of experience.
I would be looking towards charities such as http://camara.ie/web/ who look for volunteers to help them out, theres bound to be more.


Don't be blinded though - IT Support is a tough game, sometimes with long hours, low pay and a sometimes you deal with "awkward clients".
It can be a long road to get a decent job and like most jobs it's something you need to enjoy as much as possible.
best of luck with whatever you do.

beanok77

gline wrote: »

If you said to an employer that you studied yourself and paid for the test and got a qualification on your own time, that would actually sound pretty good.

IMO ECDl is a waste of time, it is for people that really dont know how to use computers properly, if you have a degree already and use computers in your job you are already too advanced for it

Thanks, I suppose the problem I have is I can't be that specific about what I want to do! I'm a Business Graduate with as previously mentioned so I have being applying for graduate roles. I'm 27 now and have been in the same job for 5 years. Graduated from college 2 years go. Earned my degree part time while working full time.

The problem I have is that where I work although the people are fantastic. There is not much emphasis placed on training & development and I want to keep myself up to date just in case things were to ever go bad with the company I am with eg. company going bust etc.

I want to keep upskilling just in case the worst was to happen and I feel IT is the best sector to target beacause I feel there will always be jobs in this area. I just don't know where to start but I am finding the replies to my post in this topic very helpful.

beanok77

doncarlos wrote: »

Nobody would employ you at the minute with no experience or no qualification I'm afraid when somebody with experience and/or qualification can be hired for the same price. We are turning down graduates and people that will work for free as we don't have the time or resources to train them

Would agree with the previous poster about ECDL. It's a great thing to have on a CV and I'd recommend it to anyone to do but it will not be any advantage in an IT environment. A course I would recommend when starting out would be the A+ certification.
http://certification.comptia.org/getCertified/certifications/a.aspx

Thanks that course looks interesting. I will look into it. I too have offered to work for free to companies (at night and weekends because of my full time job) and I'm still available if your company changes their mind! I need experience!

beanok77

kippy wrote: »

Just to join in here.
As mentioned already, you do need to clarify what type of experience you are looking for. When someone says IT to me, I assume they are speaking about a Support role of some kind - but it could also mean, programming, networking, web design and a hundred other areas and indeed a mix of all.

If you plan on getting into support (with your educational background) you are going to have to accept the fact that you are going to need more training and certification. You can of couse self study most of the professional certs, Microsoft,Cisco, Comptia etc and take these exams yourself. Most employers look very favorably on this.
ECDL really isn't something they look for in a support role, of course its handy to have but it really isnt major.
You may have to get some college qualification in IT as well - it is something a lot of organisations require now. You may be able to do something part time (not sure how well you could use your existing qualifications to get into something.) Perhaps look at the open university or something like oscail.ie for info.


Classroom learning is expensive (especially the Microsoft/Cisco/Comptia stuff (up to €3000 for a course no longer than 5 days in some cases). That said it is usually very good but you can learn and pass exams on your own.

In the mean time, you dont really have any IT Support background or education and wouldnt really be a good candidate to take on, even for a bit of experience.
I would be looking towards charities such as http://camara.ie/web/ who look for volunteers to help them out, theres bound to be more.


Don't be blinded though - IT Support is a tough game, sometimes with long hours, low pay and a sometimes you deal with "awkward clients".
It can be a long road to get a decent job and like most jobs it's something you need to enjoy as much as possible.
best of luck with whatever you do.

Thanks for the in in depth reply some really good points. I agree I'm not being specific and its probably because I don't know where to start looking!

I'm a graduate, so I have mostly being applying to graduate roles. Everybody I know just keeps saying you can't go wrong with an I.T qualification so that's what I am going to do plus I enjoy technology and think I would find it easy enough to pick up.

I suppose I.T. support would be a good place to start? and then move on from there. Cloud computing really sounds interesting as well and I can't wait to see what develops from this.

In relation to not being a good candidate to take on, I disagree. I am the best candidate to take on! I am honest, hard working and I have a first class honours Business Degree. And I will also work for free just to gain some expereience. I have a full understanding of how bad thisgs are at the minute and I am ready to roll my sleeves up.

Really appreciate the replies guys.

kippy

beanok77 wrote: »

Thanks for the in in depth reply some really good points. I agree I'm not being specific and its probably because I don't know where to start looking!

I'm a graduate, so I have mostly being applying to graduate roles. Everybody I know just keeps saying you can't go wrong with an I.T qualification so that's what I am going to do plus I enjoy technology and think I would find it easy enough to pick up.

I suppose I.T. support would be a good place to start? and then move on from there. Cloud computing really sounds interesting as well and I can't wait to see what develops from this.

In relation to not being not a good candidate to take on, I disagree. I am the best candidate to take on! I am honest, hard working and I have a first class honours Business Degree. And I will also work for free just to gain some expereience. I have a full understanding of how bad thisgs are at the minute and I am ready to roll my sleeves up.

Really appreciate the replies guys.

I am going to be blunt here and am going to say, based on that post, you are deluding yourself.
A few points:
1. You are a grad with a degree that is not IT related - there's feck all point looking for graduate IT roles when you don't have an IT background - you will be competing with guys who have IT qualifications. Who would you hire if you were looking for a graduate role in IT support - someone who has some exposure to the field - or someone who doesnt?
2. Everyone thinks they are the best candidate to take on and everyone says those things - the business degree (in my opinion) is irrelevant for MOST IT jobs. Hard working - you'd hardly say your weren't. The most important thing I look for in some one starting out in IT (mainly grads of some description) is a willingness to learn in their own time, outside of the workplace and after a long days work. I also look for an interest in IT, asking a few questions that anyone who was interested in IT would be able to answer (not workplace related).
3. Cloud computing is a term that seems to have attracted the interest of many while few actually understand what the term relates to. The sys admin side of it aint rocket science. The programmers may have some work to do alright and there could be more openings here.
4. You wont get much experience at night of at the weekend. You need to show some interest in the topic by at least studying for and getting one of the certs I mentioned earlier - at the very least.

beanok77

kippy wrote: »

I am going to be blunt here and am going to say, based on that post, you are deluding yourself.
A few points:
1. You are a grad with a degree that is not IT related - there's feck all point looking for graduate IT roles when you don't have an IT background - you will be competing with guys who have IT qualifications. Who would you hire if you were looking for a graduate role in IT support - someone who has some exposure to the field - or someone who doesnt?
2. Everyone thinks they are the best candidate to take on and everyone says those things - the business degree (in my opinion) is irrelevant for MOST IT jobs. Hard working - you'd hardly say your weren't. The most important thing I look for in some one starting out in IT (mainly grads of some description) is a willingness to learn in their own time, outside of the workplace and after a long days work. I also look for an interest in IT, asking a few questions that anyone who was interested in IT would be able to answer (not workplace related).
3. Cloud computing is a term that seems to have attracted the interest of many while few actually understand what the term relates to. The sys admin side of it aint rocket science. The programmers may have some work to do alright and there could be more openings here.
4. You wont get much experience at night of at the weekend. You need to show some interest in the topic by at least studying for and getting one of the certs I mentioned earlier - at the very least.

1. I started this topic to try and find somebody that may be offering experience, not to walk straight into a job. I only want experience becasue I do realise that I have no formal training and need experience.
2. The Business Degree I earned involved sujects such as Business Information Systems, Project Management, Information Management (IT Risk & Security, E- Commerce, Information Society, Marketing Information Systems,) among others. We also carried out assigments using word, excel, access, powerpoint and frontpage (outdated I know). Agree most people would say hardworking but most people would not work for free, I think this reinforces the point that I am hard working and if not it proves I'm enthusiastic anyway and also have a willingness to learn.
3. Again I look forward to seeing what happens in this area and hopefully more jobs are generated.
4. I really would like to be offer more than nights and weekends however I am financially restricted. But I still think I could pick up alot if say I worked 6-9 mon - fri, all day saturday, and sunday. I earned my degree doing less hours. What does that say about degrees? I hope to get looking into those courses you suggested and hope to improve my skills and will always try to improve and learn.
5. Deluding is a bit of a put down especially as I only want to work for free to gain some experience. I agree some of the posts may show that I don't have a sense of what I want to do. But thats because I don't know where to start with formal training hence why I started this topic.

I appreciate your responses, are you employed in IT? Any jobs? Will work for free.

kippy

beanok77 wrote: »

1. I started this topic to try and find somebody that may be offering experience, not to walk straight into a job. I only want experience becasue I do realise that I have no formal training and need experience.
2. The Business Degree I earned involved sujects such as Business Information Systems, Project Management, Information Management (IT Risk & Security, E- Commerce, Information Society, Marketing Information Systems,) among others. We also carried out assigments using word, excel, access, powerpoint and frontpage (outdated I know). Agree most people would say hardworking but most people would not work for free, I think this reinforces the point that I am hard working and if not it proves I'm enthusiastic anyway and also have a willingness to learn.
3. Again I look forward to seeing what happens in this area and hopefully more jobs are generated.
4. I really would like to be offer more than nights and weekends however I am financially restricted. But I still think I could pick up alot if say I worked 6-9 mon - fri, all day saturday, and sunday. I earned my degree doing less hours. What does that say about degrees? I hope to get looking into those courses you suggested and hope to improve my skills and will always try to improve and learn.
5. Deluding is a bit of a put down especially as I only want to work for free to gain some experience. I agree some of the posts may show that I don't have a sense of what I want to do. But thats because I don't know where to start with formal training hence why I started this topic.

I appreciate your responses, are you employed in IT? Any jobs? Will work for free.

This is the point I am trying to make - even in the "work for free" area there are lots and lots of qualified people looking for experience (I have three CV's at the moment and get approached regularly by people in the middle of or after finishing an IT qualification who are looking to gain some experience. These people have an major interest in the area (its easy to tell in a quick interview).
The very fact that you equate word, excel, access powerpoint with an "IT job" shows that you have done little research into the are being honest.
Deluded is a strong word, but you do need to be aware of the major issues you face, even in trying to get this experience WITHOUT anything at all IT Support related.
LOTS and LOTS of people are working for free at the moment, sadly it is a sign of the times.

I am employed in IT, have been for the past ten years or so, just after getting someone in for a couple of days a week, work experience who is in the middle of an IT related degree - the guy isn't getting paid and to be honest its probably putting more work on me getting him in but I was in the same position myself ten years ago and can appreciate the difficulty in getting started.

beanok77

kippy wrote: »

This is the point I am trying to make - even in the "work for free" area there are lots and lots of qualified people looking for experience (I have three CV's at the moment and get approached regularly by people in the middle of or after finishing an IT qualification who are looking to gain some experience. These people have an major interest in the area (its easy to tell in a quick interview).
The very fact that you equate word, excel, access powerpoint with an "IT job" shows that you have done little research into the are being honest.
Deluded is a strong word, but you do need to be aware of the major issues you face, even in trying to get this experience WITHOUT anything at all IT Support related.
LOTS and LOTS of people are working for free at the moment, sadly it is a sign of the times.

I am employed in IT, have been for the past ten years or so, just after getting someone in for a couple of days a week, work experience who is in the middle of an IT related degree - the guy isn't getting paid and to be honest its probably putting more work on me getting him in but I was in the same position myself ten years ago and can appreciate the difficulty in getting started.

I know I equated I.T with word, excel, powerpoint and access with I.T. but would these not be classed as I.T. skills? It's the only software I use regularly apart from Microsoft Project, and Sybiz Accounting Software.

I really thought things had calmed down a bit and that there wouldn't be that much of demand for "work for free/give me experience jobs"!

This emphasises to me that I really need to upskill and start learning new skills.

Where did you start out in I.T. College? Or Courses? Which area of computing do you think there are more jobs available? Will be available?

kippy

beanok77 wrote: »

I know I equated I.T with word, excel, powerpoint and access with I.T. but would these not be classed as I.T. skills? It's the only software I use regularly apart from Microsoft Project, and Sybiz Accounting Software.

I really thought things had calmed down a bit and that there wouldn't be that much of demand for "work for free/give me experience jobs"!

This emphasises to me that I really need to upskill and start learning new skills.

Where did you start out in I.T. College? Or Courses? Which area of computing do you think there are more jobs available? Will be available?

The thing is there are many areas of IT, my current job is a mix of many areas, I do desktop support/break fix/systems administration/systems design/infrastructure engineer/phone systems/mobile technology support/network analysis/web design/project management.....and more. I started out in IT Support on a helpdesk. Obviously it is handy to be aware of office software, you'll use it again in future and you may be asked, while on a helpdesk, to install/repair or about how to do certain tasks in it but when you put that experience against someone who is currently studying or just after studying an IT degree/cert etc....it's really not anywhere near enough.

There are still plenty students and grads who will work for nothing to gain experience.
I did a full time 18 month cert in it support in one of the IT's, 6 months was work experience (at the time it was paid) and I ended up getting my first IT job after college with the same company, managed to get lots of certs, more part time college stuff, changed jobs numerous times since then.

What do I see as a good area? I have a preference for support, I like it and every day is different (ie learning ALL the time, no matter how many certs you have) Others prefer programming and others prefer dealing with networks all the time. It depends.

amen

OP

Cloud computing really sounds interesting as well and I can't wait to see what develops from this.

Why wait? Loads of white papers on this subject on the web. Have you checke out the Microsoft site? Amazons or Googles offering? Do you know about S3? IBM and Oracles offering?

In IT you really are expected to go and learn things yourself and keep abreast of whats happening in the IT world.

tbh the ability to use word, excel etc is a given in todays work environment in any job (my 8 year old daughter can use word, power point etc) and it not really considered an IT skill for a Job.

Now if you could install the application across a domain, set up some global policies and auto patch then you might have some IT skills.

The certs are fine but you if you want to complete with the all of the other qualified graduates out there you need really need to do Master especially since you have don't have any programing experience.

Everyone talks about IT and jobs growth but I only consider Development and Infrastructure Management jobs( Large banks, Data centres, ESB etc) as true IT jobs. The support jobs 1st/2nd level support jobs can be done by anyone with some training but the Development/Infrastructure require a good knowledge of programing languages, database, networks, servers etc and to get that you will most likely have a technical degree(Comp Science, Engineering, Science, Maths) and a great interest in the subject and constant learning.

The Business Degree I earned involved sujects such as Business Information Systems, Project Management, Information Management (IT Risk & Security, E- Commerce, Information Society, Marketing Information Systems,) among others

Any body can learn those and will learn as they start to work in any company. I'm fairly convinced non technical degrees are a waste of time if you are looking for a job. They are very useful to have as a means of showing that you are dedicated and passionate about a subject but they don't really help you get a job.

kippy

amen wrote: »

OP


Why wait? Loads of white papers on this subject on the web. Have you checke out the Microsoft site? Amazons or Googles offering? Do you know about S3? IBM and Oracles offering?

In IT you really are expected to go and learn things yourself and keep abreast of whats happening in the IT world.

tbh the ability to use word, excel etc is a given in todays work environment in any job (my 8 year old daughter can use word, power point etc) and it not really considered an IT skill for a Job.

Now if you could install the application across a domain, set up some global policies and auto patch then you might have some IT skills.

The certs are fine but you if you want to complete with the all of the other qualified graduates out there you need really need to do Master especially since you have don't have any programing experience.

Everyone talks about IT and jobs growth but I only consider Development and Infrastructure Management jobs( Large banks, Data centres, ESB etc) as true IT jobs. The support jobs 1st/2nd level support jobs can be done by anyone with some training but the Development/Infrastructure require a good knowledge of programing languages, database, networks, servers etc and to get that you will most likely have a technical degree(Comp Science, Engineering, Science, Maths) and a great interest in the subject and constant learning.



Any body can learn those and will learn as they start to work in any company. I'm fairly convinced non technical degrees are a waste of time if you are looking for a job. They are very useful to have as a means of showing that you are dedicated and passionate about a subject but they don't really help you get a job.

Amen to that - well said.

beanok77

amen wrote: »

OP


Why wait? Loads of white papers on this subject on the web. Have you checke out the Microsoft site? Amazons or Googles offering? Do you know about S3? IBM and Oracles offering?

In IT you really are expected to go and learn things yourself and keep abreast of whats happening in the IT world.

tbh the ability to use word, excel etc is a given in todays work environment in any job (my 8 year old daughter can use word, power point etc) and it not really considered an IT skill for a Job.

Now if you could install the application across a domain, set up some global policies and auto patch then you might have some IT skills.

The certs are fine but you if you want to complete with the all of the other qualified graduates out there you need really need to do Master especially since you have don't have any programing experience.

Everyone talks about IT and jobs growth but I only consider Development and Infrastructure Management jobs( Large banks, Data centres, ESB etc) as true IT jobs. The support jobs 1st/2nd level support jobs can be done by anyone with some training but the Development/Infrastructure require a good knowledge of programing languages, database, networks, servers etc and to get that you will most likely have a technical degree(Comp Science, Engineering, Science, Maths) and a great interest in the subject and constant learning.



Any body can learn those and will learn as they start to work in any company. I'm fairly convinced non technical degrees are a waste of time if you are looking for a job. They are very useful to have as a means of showing that you are dedicated and passionate about a subject but they don't really help you get a job.

Thanks for the post. I will definitely start doing some of these courses on my own time as the general consensus seems to be that the classroom is a waste of time.

No I know about Microsofts offering but haven't looked at Google's or Amazon's.

Where did you start out yourself? What degree/masters would you recommend?

Long road ahead!

Cuddlesworth

beanok77 wrote: »

Thanks for the post. I will definitely start doing some of these courses on my own time as the general consensus seems to be that the classroom is a waste of time.

No I know about Microsofts offering but haven't looked at Google's or Amazon's.

Where did you start out yourself? What degree/masters would you recommend?

Long road ahead!

You generally have to start out in a helpdesk support role and work your way up. If your good it happens quickly.

MysticalRain

Knowing word, excel, powerpoint doesn't make you an "IT expert". That's like somebody claiming they would make a good candidate for car mechanics job just because they know how to drive a car (but still don't have a clue about how car engines work).

The best people in IT tend to be the ones with an active interest in computers. So if you don't get your kicks from building PC, tinkering with networks, and/or coding in your spare time, then IT is probably the wrong career for you (if you haven't done any of that in the last 10 years, then it's probably telling you something).

You also have to remember that you will be competing with some very stiff competition in the current jobs market with many highly qualified and experienced people out there. I would suggest going back to college for a few years and obtaining a masters at a minimum and/or some certs if possible. Exployers these days expect workers to be able to hit the ground running, and train themselves. So you will have to be prepared for that.

beanok77

MysticalRain wrote: »

Knowing word, excel, powerpoint doesn't make you an "IT expert". That's like somebody claiming they would make a good candidate for car mechanics job just because they know how to drive a car (but still don't have a clue about how car engines work).

The best people in IT tend to be the ones with an active interest in computers. So if you don't get your kicks from building PC, tinkering with networks, and/or coding in your spare time, then IT is probably the wrong career for you (if you haven't done any of that in the last 10 years, then it's probably telling you something).

You also have to remember that you will be competing with some very stiff competition in the current jobs market with many highly qualified and experienced people out there. I would suggest going back to college for a few years and obtaining a masters at a minimum and/or some certs if possible. Exployers these days expect workers to be able to hit the ground running, and train themselves. So you will have to be prepared for that.

If I was an expert I would have never posted the topic in the first place. I was simply stating what skills I have at present (all be them very basic!) and why IT Expert ? Did I mention that word anywhere?

You guys are doing a great job trying to discourage me!

So far I have learned its not easy, competition is rough, teach yourself, I am deluded and I think I am an I.T. expert.

Has anybody anything positive to add such as .............

kippy

beanok77 wrote: »

If I was an expert I would have never posted the topic in the first place. I was simply stating what skills I have at present (all be them very basic!) and why IT Expert ? Did I mention that word anywhere?

You guys are doing a great job trying to discourage me!

So far I have learned its not easy, competition is rough, teach yourself, I am deluded and I think I am an I.T. expert.

Has anybody anything positive to add such as .............

Main point, you aren't the only person willing to work for free for some experience and those you are competing against are more qualified than you.

amen

You generally have to start out in a helpdesk support role and work your way up. If your good it happens quickly.

Totally disagree. Many companies look for entry level developers who actually start work as developers. Anywhere I have worked does this.

You guys are doing a great job trying to discourage me

Not trying to discourage you. Just trying to let you know its a tough world and hard to get an IT job that is not a support job and even to get one you really need an IT degree.

But if you have a passion then go for it

beanok77

kippy wrote: »

Main point, you aren't the only person willing to work for free for some experience and those you are competing against are more qualified than you.

Now that wasn't very positive was it?

What happened to the "Is Féidir linn" way of thinking?

Smile Kippy, you won't crack! (sarcastic tone and a joke, not meant to offend!)

I appreciate your comments.

MysticalRain

beanok77 wrote: »

If I was an expert I would have never posted the topic in the first place. I was simply stating what skills I have at present (all be them very basic!) and why IT Expert ? Did I mention that word anywhere?

The point is nobody working in IT would consider those to be real "IT skills". Not even basic ones. Knowing MS Office is merely the equivalent of being able to read and write these days.

Of course if you are passionate about technology, then by all means go for it. But just be aware of what you are letting yourself into.

kippy

beanok77 wrote: »

Now that wasn't very positive was it?

What happened to the "Is Féidir linn" way of thinking?

Smile Kippy, you won't crack! (sarcastic tone and a joke, not meant to offend!)

I appreciate your comments.

Do you want honesty from someone who has been in the field for 10+ years and knows what it is like out there now or just some airy fairy nonsense?
I've told you why you wont get work experience with what you have already and advised you how to improve your chances as well as pointing out (along with others) that what you have now isnt really good enough even to get experience only.

gline

I think the 1st thing to do would be to decide what area of IT you want to get into, what excites you most. Then it will be easier to map your carreer path. But you have already proven you can study and pass exams so that is a big bonus, but you may just have to do a bit more studying to get where you want to go, even just to get a non-paying experience job. People are being a bit negative because the that is just reflecting the job market, that it is very hard to get any position, not just IT, especially if it is not your immidiate field.

Good luck with the decision making though, hope it works out for you

beanok77

kippy wrote: »

Do you want honesty from someone who has been in the field for 10+ years and knows what it is like out there now or just some airy fairy nonsense?
I've told you why you wont get work experience with what you have already and advised you how to improve your chances as well as pointing out (along with others) that what you have now isnt really good enough even to get experience only.

I know and I am grateful. I have a lot of work to do but I'm not afraid of work.

Gotta run, literally!

Stheno

beanok77 wrote: »

I want to keep upskilling just in case the worst was to happen and I feel IT is the best sector to target beacause I feel there will always be jobs in this area.

This is NOT a reason to get into IT, I started out on a customer helpdesk 14 years ago and now work as a ITIL consultant and without an interest in pretty much all areas of IT I'd have left a long long time ago.

kippy wrote: »

I am going to be blunt here and am going to say, based on that post, you are deluding yourself.

I'd agree with this, all I have to do is compare you with my partners son who is studying IT in college, he's looking for work experience for this summer in development, and struggling to get it, and as well as that he's a great interest outside of college, be it tinkering with computer hardware, playing around with coding, discussing different things I've done or had experience of in relation to his learning etc.

beanok77 wrote: »

1. I started this topic to try and find somebody that may be offering experience, not to walk straight into a job.

Most places tend to work 9-5 and as well as that for people wanting experience there can be insurance issues if they are getting it whilst not on the payroll. Plus WPP programmes are being used by employers for this purpose.

kippy wrote: »

This is the point I am trying to make - even in the "work for free" area there are lots and lots of qualified people looking for experience (I have three CV's at the moment and get approached regularly by people in the middle of or after finishing an IT qualification who are looking to gain some experience. These people have an major interest in the area (its easy to tell in a quick interview).

Agreed

The very fact that you equate word, excel, access powerpoint with an "IT job" shows that you have done little research into the are being honest.

Pretty much any person who works in IT will have an advanced level of knowledge of those apps, be it from the work they do in support, to the usage they make of the apps they are simply tools that are used everyday.

I am employed in IT, have been for the past ten years or so, just after getting someone in for a couple of days a week, work experience who is in the middle of an IT related degree - the guy isn't getting paid and to be honest its probably putting more work on me getting him in but I was in the same position myself ten years ago and can appreciate the difficulty in getting started.

Again agreed, often times taking on someone for work experience is more of a burden than a gain due to the amount of time and coaching they will need.

Taking on a completely inexperienced person with no IT knowledge would be even more onerous.

beanok77 wrote: »

I know I equated I.T with word, excel, powerpoint and access with I.T. but would these not be classed as I.T. skills?
Where did you start out in I.T. College? Or Courses? Which area of computing do you think there are more jobs available? Will be available?

Office skills are "IT Skills" for non IT employees. I started out in 1997 doing customer support back at the beginning of the boom, and over time built up experience and certifications which have negated the fact I don't have a degree. However I am starting a Masters in October, and am continually learning, studying and training in my job.

Areas to get into: ITIL, VmWare, SAN Management, would be some, development wise I'm not sure as I don't have great exposure to it in the past five years. For all of the ones I've mentioned certs will not be enough you'll have to build up a solid experience base also.

amen wrote: »

Why wait? Loads of white papers on this subject on the web. Have you checke out the Microsoft site? Amazons or Googles offering? Do you know about S3? IBM and Oracles offering?

In IT you really are expected to go and learn things yourself and keep abreast of whats happening in the IT world.

Absolutely, not keeping up means you will get out of date very quickly, and you won't be keeping up on company time

beanok77 wrote: »

Thanks for the post. I will definitely start doing some of these courses on my own time as the general consensus seems to be that the classroom is a waste of time.

OP I think you are leaping before you look with that statement, you need to decide what are you want to work in, what qualifications you need and how you can get them, some qualifications require you to attend classroom based training before you can sit the exams.

MysticalRain wrote: »

The best people in IT tend to be the ones with an active interest in computers. So if you don't get your kicks from building PC, tinkering with networks, and/or coding in your spare time, then IT is probably the wrong career for you (if you haven't done any of that in the last 10 years, then it's probably telling you something).

THe fact the OP has posted that they feel there will always be jobs in IT as a reason for wanting to get into would lead me to think they don't have that core genuine interest.

beanok77 wrote: »

You guys are doing a great job trying to discourage me!

So far I have learned its not easy, competition is rough, teach yourself,

be prepared to be constantly learning, evaluated against peers based on international standards, willing to work long and sometimes unsociable hours and yet still enjoy it.

LenaClaire

Op - you mentioned wanting to be a business analyst. Usually a good way to get into this is to get involved in system improvement projects in your company.

Does your company have any databases or internal systems that you are familiar with due to your day to day job? If so keep an ear open for any projects to improve them. They will need Subject Matter Experts - ie, users who are very familiar with how the system currently works, why it works that way and what improvements could be beneficial.

If you hear about such a project volunteer for it and make yourself invaluable. They might ask you to be on other projects which will get you known to the right people in your company and build a resume for future project related work.

beanok77

gline wrote: »

I think the 1st thing to do would be to decide what area of IT you want to get into, what excites you most. Then it will be easier to map your carreer path. But you have already proven you can study and pass exams so that is a big bonus, but you may just have to do a bit more studying to get where you want to go, even just to get a non-paying experience job. People are being a bit negative because the that is just reflecting the job market, that it is very hard to get any position, not just IT, especially if it is not your immidiate field.

Good luck with the decision making though, hope it works out for you

Thanks gline. Yeah the negativity is understandable given the state of this country. I just want to better myself.

beanok77

Stheno wrote: »

This is NOT a reason to get into IT, I started out on a customer helpdesk 14 years ago and now work as a ITIL consultant and without an interest in pretty much all areas of IT I'd have left a long long time ago.



I'd agree with this, all I have to do is compare you with my partners son who is studying IT in college, he's looking for work experience for this summer in development, and struggling to get it, and as well as that he's a great interest outside of college, be it tinkering with computer hardware, playing around with coding, discussing different things I've done or had experience of in relation to his learning etc.



Most places tend to work 9-5 and as well as that for people wanting experience there can be insurance issues if they are getting it whilst not on the payroll. Plus WPP programmes are being used by employers for this purpose.





Agreed


Pretty much any person who works in IT will have an advanced level of knowledge of those apps, be it from the work they do in support, to the usage they make of the apps they are simply tools that are used everyday.


Again agreed, often times taking on someone for work experience is more of a burden than a gain due to the amount of time and coaching they will need.

Taking on a completely inexperienced person with no IT knowledge would be even more onerous.


Office skills are "IT Skills" for non IT employees. I started out in 1997 doing customer support back at the beginning of the boom, and over time built up experience and certifications which have negated the fact I don't have a degree. However I am starting a Masters in October, and am continually learning, studying and training in my job.

Areas to get into: ITIL, VmWare, SAN Management, would be some, development wise I'm not sure as I don't have great exposure to it in the past five years. For all of the ones I've mentioned certs will not be enough you'll have to build up a solid experience base also.




Absolutely, not keeping up means you will get out of date very quickly, and you won't be keeping up on company time


OP I think you are leaping before you look with that statement, you need to decide what are you want to work in, what qualifications you need and how you can get them, some qualifications require you to attend classroom based training before you can sit the exams.




THe fact the OP has posted that they feel there will always be jobs in IT as a reason for wanting to get into would lead me to think they don't have that core genuine interest.



be prepared to be constantly learning, evaluated against peers based on international standards, willing to work long and sometimes unsociable hours and yet still enjoy it.

Thanks for the post Stheno. I suppose the reason I haven't started already is because of my degree. It was fairly intense. Working full time and studying night time while doing assignments at the same time. My favourite subjects were the I.T subjects.

I do try to keep up with what's going on in the IT sector and I read articles all the time. I really find them interesting and understand what they are talking about.

I did say I feel there will always be jobs in I.T. but this is not my reason for wanting to get into I.T. The reason I want to get into I.T. is as above, I really enjoyed the I.T. subjects I studied in college, I love talking about what's going on in the industry, I love the products, hardware, apps, everything and I also like knowing what's wrong with my computer and having the ability sometimes to get colleagues, friends and family out of a pickle by removing a virus or even showing beginners how to operate a PC. You would be amazed of the amount of older people I know who have never used a computer and I am not talking OAP's either. This is probably a bad thing because it makes me feel like I know a lot, whereas the evidence in this thread definitely proves I don't know a lot and have a lot to learn

I do not want to get left behind!

beanok77

jujibee wrote: »

Op - you mentioned wanting to be a business analyst. Usually a good way to get into this is to get involved in system improvement projects in your company.

Does your company have any databases or internal systems that you are familiar with due to your day to day job? If so keep an ear open for any projects to improve them. They will need Subject Matter Experts - ie, users who are very familiar with how the system currently works, why it works that way and what improvements could be beneficial.

If you hear about such a project volunteer for it and make yourself invaluable. They might ask you to be on other projects which will get you known to the right people in your company and build a resume for future project related work.

Hi jujibee, I work in a small office where hardware is at a minimum despite my best efforts to get them to invest in a new server! Our I.T sevices are outsourced so I have little say in what happens with it. However I do make myself involved by liaising with the I.T service providers. The guys in there are pretty nice and have patience for my stupid questions while they are working away! I think that must be the best attribute of an I.T Professional, a little patience!

Stheno

beanok77 wrote: »

Thanks for the post Stheno. I suppose the reason I haven't started already is because of my degree. It was fairly intense. Working full time and studying night time while doing assignments at the same time. My favourite subjects were the I.T subjects.

I do try to keep up with what's going on in the IT sector and I read articles all the time. I really find them interesting and understand what they are talking about.

I did say I feel there will always be jobs in I.T. but this is not my reason for wanting to get into I.T. The reason I want to get into I.T. is as above, I really enjoyed the I.T. subjects I studied in college, I love talking about what's going on in the industry, I love the products, hardware, apps, everything and I also like knowing what's wrong with my computer and having the ability sometimes to get colleagues, friends and family out of a pickle by removing a virus or even showing beginners how to operate a PC. You would be amazed of the amount of older people I know who have never used a computer and I am not talking OAP's either. This is probably a bad thing because it makes me feel like I know a lot, whereas the evidence in this thread definitely proves I don't know a lot and have a lot to learn

I do not want to get left behind!

That's pretty positive for you then. But in terms of intensity I'm currently studying for a qualification that 6% of applicants achieve, constantly keeping up to date with improvements in my area, changes in my area, discussing those with peers, volunteering for professional development credits and on top of all that about to start a Masters degree. It never ever ever ends in IT, and the further you progress, the more you need to do it.

Not wanting to break you down, but every single qualification I've gone for in IT, I've studied in my spare time, and occasionally depending on the company gotten time off to do the exams.

If you already like tinkering a little and tbh, the tinkering you've mentioned is all based on Windows type stuff, then you need to tinker more. Learn how to build a pc/laptop from the bottom up, learn how to multiple boot operating systems on machines. Way back in 1997 when I started out, I was in a training class where as a challenge we decided to see how many o/s we could configure in a machine in terms of boot options and finally configured it to boot with four o/s options without using linux.

That's the sort of level of interest I'm talking about. Now some posters on here will say "Oh Stheno is an ITIL/Service Management person and has no techie experience" I would never ever have survived without an understanding of database, hardware, software, remote access technologies, combined with knowledge of licencing, compliance, and governance/regulatory requirements.

My post now is really to show you the breath of IT, I've been a first and second level support analyst, a problem and change analyst, a change manager, a business analyst, a project manager, consultant, service delivery manager, and a trainer.

What area do you think interests you?

Is it business analysis?

beanok77

Stheno wrote: »

That's pretty positive for you then. But in terms of intensity I'm currently studying for a qualification that 6% of applicants achieve, constantly keeping up to date with improvements in my area, changes in my area, discussing those with peers, volunteering for professional development credits and on top of all that about to start a Masters degree. It never ever ever ends in IT, and the further you progress, the more you need to do it.

Not wanting to break you down, but every single qualification I've gone for in IT, I've studied in my spare time, and occasionally depending on the company gotten time off to do the exams.

If you already like tinkering a little and tbh, the tinkering you've mentioned is all based on Windows type stuff, then you need to tinker more. Learn how to build a pc/laptop from the bottom up, learn how to multiple boot operating systems on machines. Way back in 1997 when I started out, I was in a training class where as a challenge we decided to see how many o/s we could configure in a machine in terms of boot options and finally configured it to boot with four o/s options without using linux.

That's the sort of level of interest I'm talking about. Now some posters on here will say "Oh Stheno is an ITIL/Service Management person and has no techie experience" I would never ever have survived without an understanding of database, hardware, software, remote access technologies, combined with knowledge of licencing, compliance, and governance/regulatory requirements.

My post now is really to show you the breath of IT, I've been a first and second level support analyst, a problem and change analyst, a change manager, a business analyst, a project manager, consultant, service delivery manager, and a trainer.

What area do you think interests you?

Is it business analysis?

Business Analyst interests me because I already have Business qualification but to be honest every area you mentioned up there kinda interests me! I like the idea of implementing new systems into Businesses and showing organisations how they can save money and communicate faster.

If you were me with no formal training and just basic app experience. What would be the first course you would do?

Stheno

beanok77 wrote: »

Business Analyst interests me because I already have Business qualification but to be honest every area you mentioned up there kinda interests me! I like the idea of implementing new systems into Businesses and showing organisations how they can save money and communicate faster.

If you were me with no formal training and just basic app experience. What would be the first course you would do?

If I were you and based on experience and certs, I'd first gain some certs/degrees in terms of IT, but I'd look to get into support.

Have you any foreign languages at all?

kippy

beanok77 wrote: »

Business Analyst interests me because I already have Business qualification but to be honest every area you mentioned up there kinda interests me! I like the idea of implementing new systems into Businesses and showing organisations how they can save money and communicate faster.

If you were me with no formal training and just basic app experience. What would be the first course you would do?

I dont think the business degree and a business analyst job are comparable to be honest.
Start looking at the A+ cert (mentioned earlier) have a look online for some material.
Heres a partial brief look at some of the stuff:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=KrE0GGzOQ6oC&printsec=frontcover&dq=A%2B&hl=en&ei=p8cDTr3xFYK5hAfDh_X1BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Get an idea of the subject matter and whether it interests you.
After that, something like Network +.

amen

business analyst job

most Business analysts have some domain knowledge in the area they are working in. You don't just turn up a bank and start working as a business analyst and help improve their process.