Kenny accuses former ministers over Ireland's reputation in Europe

Scofflaw

It's been said before now around these parts, and I don't have any doubt in this case that Enda is right on the money:

There were sharp exchanges between the Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil leader in the Dáil today on Ireland’s reputation in Europe.

Enda Kenny claimed that he had discovered that Ireland’s relationship with its European partners was “nothing short of disgraceful” and the Government was working to rebuild it.

He added: “The reason was that ministers in the last government did not attend the meetings they were supposed to attend.

“When they did speak, if they spoke, they spoke only on a narrow confined basis about elements of this country and had no contribution to make on the broader context of Europe.”

http://www.ireland.com/news/kenny-accuses-former-ministers/607001

Stories apparently abound of Irish ministers failing to show to morning meetings because they were either hung-over or still drunk, year-long absences from regular EU meetings, and the Irish Permanent Representation civil servants having to fill in consistently for Irish Ministers.

Hardly surprising that we found negotiations a little difficult, and a lack of allies when we needed them. Once can't help but wonder if some of the last government's apparent "Stockholm Syndrome" in the bailout negotiations was down to a combination of isolation, unfamiliarity, and guilt.

cordially,
Scofflaw

loldog

Video of this exchange:

http://youtu.be/raCSxUS7v9I#t=2m57s

Don't we have any Irish journalists over there keeping an eye on things? It's the first I've heard of it and really shocking, considering the huge money transfers Ireland has received from the EU during our membership.

.

Scofflaw

loldog wrote: »

Video of this exchange:

http://youtu.be/raCSxUS7v9I#t=2m57s

Don't we have any Irish journalists over there keeping an eye on things? It's the first I've heard of it and really shocking, considering the huge money transfers Ireland has received from the EU during our membership.

.

I think the Irish media largely stopped bothering with Brussels correspondents over much the same period (note that that's just an impression, which I'd have to check on). That may have been for the same reasons as Irish ministers appear to have dropped the ball (too busy at home with the property supplements), or it may have been because there was little Irish action to comment on.

It fits extraordinarily well with Fianna Fáil's other actions in respect of the EU - the attitude over the rebuke to McCreevy's pro-cyclic budgets, their complete failure to pull the finger out in the Nice and Lisbon referendums, the use of the EU as a scapegoat in matters like water charges, the consistent delaying or failure to implement any directive they thought might annoy rural voters, our almost total lack of allies when the crisis hit...etc etc.

It's absolutely incredible, really - I did think my opinion of Fianna Fáil couldn't get any lower, but I was wrong.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Kristopherus

Well some FF gombeen was prattling on tonight on Radio 1 that the reason the ministers could'nt go to European meetings was that FG had withdrawn from the pairing arrangements at the end of last year:rolleyes:. He could'nt explain where they were for the past 4 years.

hatrickpatrick

This might well explain why Europe has been giving us such a hard time. Holy f*cking SH!T. O_O

Good GOD lads, you really did put the FAIL in FF didn't you? *facepalm*

Dannyboy83

I simply can't understand Michael Martin's strategy.

What can possibly be gained by defending the previous administration(s)?

Just say they were a joke, I'm here to change this, that won't happen under my watch...bla bla bla, lie through your teeth and drop a little "change we can believe in"

If he continues to play the defensive game, he's just going to get stomped all over.

Confused.com

jank

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I simply can't understand Michael Martin's strategy.

What can possibly be gained by defending the previous administration(s)?

Just say they were a joke, I'm here to change this, that won't happen under my watch...bla bla bla, lie through your teeth and drop a little "change we can believe in"

If he continues to play the defensive game, he's just going to get stomped all over.

Confused.com

Agreed. FF though are bred like this, they still do not GET IT.
They really think they will be back in power in a few years... lol
The longer they keep up the "it wasnt us gov' " mantra the more inclined to think that they are finished as a party.
There are some good people in FF, I would expect them to do the unthinkable in a few years. Jump ship and joing FG.

On this story? Well nothing would surprise me of FF. Like the catholic church the blinkers have been totally and utterly removed on what they were like and there is no going back.

dan_d

Strange Enda is only saying this now though.

I wouldn't put it past FF to have not bothered to attend where they should have, but seriously, why is it only being said now??

And why didn't Europe bring it up...

smellslikeshoes

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I simply can't understand Michael Martin's strategy.

What can possibly be gained by defending the previous administration(s)?

Just say they were a joke, I'm here to change this, that won't happen under my watch...bla bla bla, lie through your teeth and drop a little "change we can believe in"

If he continues to play the defensive game, he's just going to get stomped all over.

Confused.com

The problem there is Micheál Martin didn't just drop out of the sky to lead FF into the election, he has held significant cabinet posts since FF went into power in 97. Blaming everything on the previous administration would mean he would have to acept some of the blame himself.

RichardAnd

I seem to recall hearing that many europeans took a strong exception to charlie mccreevy. I heard a rumour before that he was sent to Europe for rubbing half of lenster house up the wrong way and it seems he continued in Europe.

Zubeneschamali

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

The problem there is Micheál Martin didn't just drop out of the sky to lead FF into the election, he has held significant cabinet posts since FF went into power in 97.

I don't think FF are going to rebound much under Martin: he's too tainted by his service with Bertie and Cowen.

How long before the next Lenihan/O'Rourke is in a position to take it on?

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's been said before now around these parts, and I don't have any doubt in this case that Enda is right on the money:

Why? Who is Enda Kenny hearing this from?

Stories apparently abound of Irish ministers failing to show to morning meetings because they were either hung-over or still drunk

Personally I would have little time for grapevine tattle. I don't consider it my boss's concern what I was doing last night so long as it is not affecting my work. Criticize failing showing up at meetings - of course - if that actually is known to be the case, but I don't see the relevance of bringing private social habits into the issue beforehand.

year-long absences from regular EU meetings

What EU meetings in specific?

reallyrose

later10 wrote: »

I don't consider it my boss's concern what I was doing last night so long as it is not affecting my work. Criticize failing showing up at meetings - of course - if that actually is known to be the case, but I don't see the relevance of bringing private social habits into the issue beforehand.

It's relevant if the private social habits are getting in the way of their job. Not turning up to a meeting because one is ill, or because the minister was tied up with work elsewhere is fair enough. If it is true that ministers constantly missed meetings because they were unable to control their drinking the night before, then it becomes very relevant.
No matter what a person's job is, part of their duties has to include making sure they are capable of carrying out their job.

I do wonder if it's true though. It can't possibly be true that entire cabinets of ministers were constantly drunk while in Brussels? I'd imagine that they were missing the meetings because they didn't actually go to Europe to attend them, too busy with other things at home.

later12

reallyrose wrote: »

It's relevant if the private social habits are getting in the way of their job.

That is why I added the caveat beforehand.

First you have to give reasonable reputation to the specific suggestions (as opposed to suggestions from the likes of Pat Cox on Irish arrogance, which is slightly different).
We don't know if this is coming from Europe or from civil servants in the Taoiseach's department or from Lower Mount Street or from the smoking area behind Leinster House or from the anonymity of the internet.

Then there is a case to be made about why, if such carelessness is an issue, why it is an issue. There are lots of reasons why Ministers might have been failing to attend meetings. One of them may have been an arrogance, or a Celtic Tiger inspired euphoria, that is a suggestion that Pat Cox has made deriving from his personal witness, and one which deserves consideration.

However to put it down to being in a hungover state is little more than village post office gossip.

Zubeneschamali

Now that Inda has given them this kick up the hole, I'd hope that our journalist class will now wake up and check who travelled to Brussels for what, and whether they showed up at the meetings or not.

Zubeneschamali

later10 wrote: »

However to put it down to being in a hungover state is little more than village post office gossip.

Do we need to point out that Cowen has form in this area?

later12

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Do we need to point out that Cowen has form in this area?

Not really, in the sense that one incident of a man being hungover (or so it certainly sounded) doesn't prove what the OP is saying.

Maybe if Cowen had a habit of missing early morning interviews and traipsing into Kildare Street at 11am with a chicken fillet baguette and a bottle of lucozade, we could say there was form there.

Owldshtok

later10 wrote: »

Why? Who is Enda Kenny hearing this from?
Personally I would have little time for grapevine tattle. I don't consider it my boss's concern what I was doing last night so long as it is not affecting my work. Criticize failing showing up at meetings - of course - if that actually is known to be the case, but I don't see the relevance of bringing private social habits into the issue beforehand.


What EU meetings in specific?

In this instance,I would have a lot of time for grapevine tattle.The government ministers and secretaries are there representing us and our reputation as a nation so its not like your boss in the private or public sector at home.Theres a possibility that bureaucrats from more than one country have indicated something about the previous Irish admin. to Enda & co.Its embarrassing and re-enforces the Irish drunkard stereotype at the highest level.

By the way,isn't the 'grapevine' one of the factors that influence financial markets everyday?

later12

Owldshtok wrote: »

In this instance,I would have a lot of time for grapevine tattle.

You say this, which is fair enough, but fail to establish why exactly you have a lot of time for this particular grapevine tattle.

Theres a possibility that bureaucrats from more than one country have indicated something about the previous Irish admin.

There are lots of possibilities, it is up to those advancing them to lay something a bit more concrete down underneath these possibilities.

to Enda & co.Its embarrassing and re-enforces the Irish drunkard stereotype at the highest level.

But we don't actually know that there is a drunkard stereotype.

By the way,isn't the 'grapevine' one of the factors that influence financial markets everyday?

Yes, to an extent. I'm not sure how that is relevant. While markets may usually be efficient, they are not necessarily rational.

Neither are the markets 'personal', and bringing up private drinking habits without having shown such habits to have relevance is particularly personal.

Owldshtok

later10 wrote: »

You say this, which is fair enough, but fail to establish why exactly you have a lot of time for this particular grapevine tattle.

There are lots of possibilities, it is up to those advancing them to lay something a bit more concrete down underneath these possibilities.But we don't actually know that there is a drunkard stereotype.

Yes, to an extent. I'm not sure how that is relevant. While markets may usually be efficient, they are not necessarily rational.

Neither are the markets 'personal', and bringing up private drinking habits without having shown such habits to have relevance is particularly personal.

Let me put it this way.In continental countries including France,Italy,Germany there is less of a gossip culture than there is in Ireland and the UK (even tho they might be more devious in other ways) - so i would listen to grapevine tattle and take it more seriously.

And yes there is a drunkard stereotype,all you have to do is walk down the main street of one of our towns on a weekend night through the eyes of a tourist,and do the same abroad to see the difference.

professore

dan_d wrote: »

And why didn't Europe bring it up...

Why should Europe bring it up? When topics of national and european interest are being negotiated, why would you want a possible rival country at the table? If you were a Spanish minister looking for expanded fishing rights for example, it would not be in your interest to have an Irish minister fighting our corner - better to ply him/her with drink the night before. "Ah that Spanish lad, sure isn't he great craic?"

later12

Owldshtok wrote: »

yes there is a drunkard stereotype,all you have to do is walk down the main street of one of our towns on a weekend night through the eyes of a tourist,and do the same abroad to see the difference.

I was asking specifically about the gossip pertaining to drunk or hungover Ministers, not 20 year olds.

It has not been established that such gossip/ rumours/ anecdotes even exists amongst politicians or those in the European civil service.

Let me put it this way.In continental countries including France,Italy,Germany there is less of a gossip culture

????

This whole thread is conjecture and rhetoric, isn't it.

Anybody got the facts?

Owldshtok

later10 wrote: »

I was asking specifically about the gossip pertaining to drunk or hungover Ministers, not 20 year olds.

It has not been established that such gossip/ rumours/ anecdotes even exists amongst politicians or those in the European civil service.


????

This whole thread is conjecture and rhetoric, isn't it.

Anybody got the facts?

It has not been established? Do you expect Kenny to come home with recordings of foreign bureaucrats being explicit?
You are hung up on the stories being scientifically disproved.Real life politics and/or financial markets are as much about the grapevine as about analytical reports.

dlofnep

Could someone post a list of attendance between FF and FG? It might be curious to see.

later12

Owldshtok wrote: »

You are hung up on the stories being scientifically disproved.

No, I am asking for something to back it up - something in the line of evidence. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for evidence, that's generally how it works for an argument or a point to be sunstantiated.

Real life politics and/or financial markets are as much about the grapevine as about analytical reports.

I really have no idea why you keep returning to the relevance of the financial markets.
I've already said they do rely on grapevine gossip sometimes, but that this is not exactly rational and that in cases like this it is reasonable to expect a more rational standard.

Owldshtok

later10 wrote: »

No, I am asking for something to back it up - something in the line of evidence. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for evidence, that's generally how it works for an argument or a point to be sunstantiated.
I really have no idea why you keep returning to the relevance of the financial markets.
I've already said they do rely on grapevine gossip sometimes, but that this is not exactly rational and that in cases like this it is reasonable to expect a more rational standard.

People who invest in the markets listen to the grapevine,and as this is an economics forum its a good example to to give about the value of the grapevine.For the reason I've already outlined (difference in gossip culture) I think we can give good credence to the grapevine in this case.

dynamick

Scofflaw wrote: »

Stories apparently abound of Irish ministers failing to show to morning meetings because they were either hung-over or still drunk,

I've heard this too but not particularly about ff. A translator in the EP told me that many Irish MEPs were incurable drunks who employ their mistresses using their secretarial allowances. There is no proof of this. I don't see any reason why a FF would be more likely to engage in this behaviour than a FG.

Noonan has missed the last two ECOFIN meetings.

Most EU meetings are between unelected officials, civil servants and technocrats. Certainly the drafting of EU directives does not require ministerial presence.

I wouldn't attach any significance to Dail slagging. They are the same, FG and FF, and they are following the same policies. I wish they would coalesce.

I doubt Noonan is more on top of his brief or that he has a better relationship with the EU than Lenihan.

Tora Bora

In the case of FF ministers, the ratio of attendance at euro meetings, would have been in direct proportion to the travel and sustinenance allowances, which could have been claimed.
Since I expect no such allowances were on the table for ministers, then your average, cunning FF minister, would probably find him / herself a nice funeral to attend somewhere down the country:eek:

Scofflaw

later10 wrote:

No, I am asking for something to back it up - something in the line of evidence. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for evidence, that's generally how it works for an argument or a point to be sunstantiated.

I'm afraid that in this case, I'm going to have to claim access to relevant sources as my reason for regarding Kenny as being on the money.

It's not the first time the issue has been raised:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0819/1224277151816.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0418/1224294907395.html

If you like, I could probably assemble a record of Council attendance from the Concilium website, but it would take a little while, because attendance records are in the form of PDF press releases, so it would be necessary to parse the record of meetings, download every press release, parse the PDF files, and assemble the data from that. That wouldn't, of course, substantiate any of the stories regarding why Irish Ministers failed to make it to meetings...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zubeneschamali

Scofflaw wrote: »

That wouldn't, of course, substantiate any of the stories regarding why Irish Ministers failed to make it to meetings.

If the ministers travelled to Brussels for the meetings and then missed them, that would tend to support the theory that they were on the Leffe.

If the minister just didn't care about Europe, he or she would be at home attending funerals and GAA matches.

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm afraid that in this case, I'm going to have to claim access to relevant sources as my reason for regarding Kenny as being on the money.

Not really; the first is an opinion piece by Dan O'Brien, the second is relevant to attendance, which I will get to in a minute.

Enda Kenny said that 'the last Government' did not attend meetings it was supposed to attend. As per the article you quoted yourself, that does not appear to have been a significant problem for foreign ministers. The last general election was in 2007, the same period in which it is written:

The only figures available are from May 2007 to the present, which show a much higher attendance rate by the current Minister, Micheál Martin. A departmental spokeswoman said that Irish ministers attended 30 (or 90 per cent) of the 33 meetings held since 2007. However, the senior ministers (Dermot Ahern until 2008, and Mr Martin) attended a total of 27, with the junior minister Dick Roche attending three.
“Ministers try to ensure that Ireland is represented at Government level at all appropriate EU meetings,” said the spokeswoman.
“However, on occasions this is not possible. For example, meetings may be called at short notice or there may be Oireachtas commitments at home. On those occasions Ireland is represented by senior diplomats of the Permanent Representation to the EU.”

However, where I do think Enda Kenny may be correct is where he spoke of (presumably) various Ministers' speeches as being narrow in their approach. This is something I would say carries weight because of similar comments which have been made by Pat Cox (and upon which I presume Dan O'Brien's opinion piece is based, it having been written around the same time)

However, what I really am interested in is your basis for bringing personal alcohol consumption into this, when nobody has brought that up as far as I am aware, and whereby there is nothing to suggest that hangovers were behind any absences that did occur, whether by Micheal Martin or Dermot Ahern. In fact I have always understood that one of the ironies about Dermot Ahern's present illness was that he was so active, and was never a drinker.

For another thing, the Berlingske Tidende paper only relates to foreign ministers, and not to Ministers with any other portfolio, nor to the Taoiseach, nor to meetings between civil servants.

Also, you specifically mentioned "year-long absences from regular EU meeting" - which meetings?

While I do think there is a case to answer for how the Irish have engaged in Europe over the past number of years, I think many of your claims are unsubstantiated gossip, not least that of "ministers failing to show to morning meetings because they were either hung-over or still drunk".

As with all gossip, that has to be taken with a pinch of salt. The vast majority of this thread is conjecture and hearsay.

Scofflaw

I don't think I've claimed drunkenness as a major reason for Ministers missing meetings - and if I've given that impression, allow me to clarify that I neither think it was, nor am claiming that it was, even a particularly common reason.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dynamick

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think I've claimed drunkenness as a major reason for Ministers missing meetings - and if I've given that impression, allow me to clarify that I neither think it was, nor am claiming that it was, even a particularly common reason.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Stories apparently abound of Irish ministers failing to show to morning meetings because they were either hung-over or still drunk, year-long absences from regular EU meetings, and the Irish Permanent Representation civil servants having to fill in consistently for Irish Ministers.

what are you saying, then?

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's been said before now around these parts, and I don't have any doubt in this case that Enda is right on the money:

Stories apparently abound of Irish ministers failing to show to morning meetings because they were either hung-over or still drunk, year-long absences from regular EU meetings, and the Irish Permanent Representation civil servants having to fill in consistently for Irish Ministers.

For once I agree with you.

These stories have been around for ages, and if you talk to some people, the high level of unprofessionalism and discourtesy shown by ff ministers was truly appalling.
mcgreevey was particularly obnoxious both when Irish MOF and in his position as EU commissioner.

There are loads of stories floating around about Irish ministers falling asleep during meetings or failing to turn up.
One story that did the rounds was about how lowly ranked department official was left in the room on his own during a Ministers meeting in 2005 as the Irish ministerial representative (apparently it was a junior filling in) and his advisors were golfing.

There another story about a prominent Irish ff minister been found passed out drunk in his hotel room in his suit from the previous day.
The officals had to undress, shower, dress him before pouring coffee into him so that he could attend a meeting with Angela Merkel.

Our representatives were a disgrace and had absolutely no standing when it was needed to help save our country.

dan_d wrote: »

Strange Enda is only saying this now though.

I wouldn't put it past FF to have not bothered to attend where they should have, but seriously, why is it only being said now??

And why didn't Europe bring it up...

They would have known about this, but maybe someone has been reminding him recently.

later10 wrote: »

Why? Who is Enda Kenny hearing this from?
Personally I would have little time for grapevine tattle. I don't consider it my boss's concern what I was doing last night so long as it is not affecting my work. Criticize failing showing up at meetings - of course - if that actually is known to be the case, but I don't see the relevance of bringing private social habits into the issue beforehand.

What EU meetings in specific?

But it was affecting their work and they are not just workers, they are representing the people of this state.
Maybe it would be the boss's concern if you turned up to meeting pis**d or didn't bother turning up at all.

You really have started going out of your defending very questionable behaviour recently.

later10 wrote: »

I was asking specifically about the gossip pertaining to drunk or hungover Ministers, not 20 year olds.

It has not been established that such gossip/ rumours/ anecdotes even exists amongst politicians or those in the European civil service.
...
Anybody got the facts?

I will try and source you pictures, alright.

Scofflaw

dynamick wrote: »

what are you saying, then?

That there are such stories, and plenty of them.People seem to have battened onto the "drunk/hungover" issue very particularly, but it was only a part of what I said, and, as I said, I specifically disclaim the idea that I'm putting it forward as a major reason for non-attendance. I would consider it indicative of a certain less-than-professional attitude to doing business with Europe, though.

cordially,
Scofflaw

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think I've claimed drunkenness as a major reason for Ministers missing meetings - and if I've given that impression, allow me to clarify that I neither think it was, nor am claiming that it was, even a particularly common reason.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Okay, but I don't see why you brought it up. There was a clear inference in your post that alcohol was a factor here, even if not the factor in all cases. And surely you must see that internet hearsay is not a reliable source of information for quite a significant accusation, as that is, of previous ministers.

Apart from one link to the Berlingske Tidende paper, which (i) may not have taken account of junior ministerial representation and (ii) which only related to foreign ministers and (iii) is not available online in English and (iv) which contrasts rather starkly with known 90% evidence of attendance for the last Government, I have not seen a single relevant fact posted here in this thread. 35 posts and one fact relevant. What gives?

I don't want to go on about this question, but that question of what the "year-long absences from regular EU meeting" were is significant and should be easy to answer.

HellFireClub

Scofflaw wrote: »

That there are such stories, and plenty of them.People seem to have battened onto the "drunk/hungover" issue very particularly, but it was only a part of what I said, and, as I said, I specifically disclaim the idea that I'm putting it forward as a major reason for non-attendance. I would consider it indicative of a certain less-than-professional attitude to doing business with Europe, though.

cordially,
Scofflaw

But sure we are very well known for this. In industry, we are known for being the lads who have to knock a session out of an overseas trip, whereas other nationalities will treat the whole thing as a work assignment, to Paddy, it is very often a session first and a business assignment second...

Scofflaw

later10 wrote: »

Okay, but I don't see why you brought it up. There was a clear inference in your post that alcohol was a factor here, even if not the factor in all cases. And surely you must see that internet hearsay is not a reliable source of information for quite a significant accusation, as that is, of previous ministers.

I agree - but this is not, at least from my perspective, 'internet hearsay'. I don't consider alcohol a 'major factor', as I've now said a couple of times, except insofar as any incident where it was a factor would be something that reflects on attitude.

later10 wrote: »

Apart from one link to the Berlingske Tidende paper, which (i) may not have taken account of junior ministerial representation and (ii) which only related to foreign ministers and (iii) is not available online in English and (iv) which contrasts rather starkly with known 90% evidence of attendance for the last Government, I have not seen a single relevant fact posted here in this thread. 35 posts and one fact relevant. What gives?

I don't want to go on about this question, but that question of what the "year-long absences from regular EU meeting" were is significant and should be easy to answer.

Unfortunately, it's not that easy to answer definitively - and that being the case, I can only stand over it to the extent that I have it from sources I would consider trustworthy, although even there, it's always possible for it to be somewhat exaggerated.

Obviously, the only way to settle this will be to do the figures.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sleepy

later10 wrote: »

It has not been established that such gossip/ rumours/ anecdotes even exists amongst politicians or those in the European civil service.

The Fianna Fail annual fundraiser during the majority of their recent term of government was held at the Galway Race Festival. An event which is so regarded as a "social" (i.e. a drinking) meeting that even those of us without an interest in "the Sport of Kings" know the quality of the racing is regarded as second rate. Hardly a coincidence that the senior politicians in that party would have a reputation for being drunkards now, is it?

That said, it's as desperate a reflection of the Irish populace as it was of the politicians themselves since instead of finding the best of us to be our leaders, we chose those that, arguably, best reflected us at the time: an arrogant bunch of half-wits who were so delighted by rising incomes that they never saw fit to question where it was coming from or how long it would last.

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

I agree - but this is not, at least from my perspective, 'internet hearsay'.

Of course not. I'm not talking about your perspective, I'm talking about how much weight anybody can apportion to it.

I could come on here and say I heard 'from a reliable source' of community welfare cheques being written for Nigerians to buy cars, or for foreign nationals receiving advice to take their money out of the Irish banks pronto - but it shouldn't be given any credit because such hearsay would be unsubstantiated gossip which very likely would have a specific political motive.

That's all I'm seeing in this thread (and this is not addressed to the OP alone). Enda Kenny makes a vague statement on politicians not attending meetings and suddenly the accusations are flying that politicians have in the past missed regular EU meetings for a whole year (unsubstantiated), that Irish politicians have been too drunk or hungover for such meetings in the past (again unsubstantiated) and then a whole host of other frothing at the mouth about politicians passed out in hotel suites and low ranked officials filling in for them (obviously unsubstantiated...).

I am not suggesting that Irish politicians - from any background - are performing particularly well in Europe. Yes, they may be missing European meetings, although the evidence does not immediately suggest so, at least that relating to the last two foreign ministers.

But what I do find objectionable are these unsubstantiated whisperings that not only have not even the slightest hint of any official stamp on them, but also carry a particularly distasteful personal tone.

Obviously, the only way to settle this will be to do the figures.

Okay I'm going to get the figures from Consilium and will do them tonight or tomorrow evening.

jank

later10 wrote: »

Why? Who is Enda Kenny hearing this from?
Personally I would have little time for grapevine tattle. I don't consider it my boss's concern what I was doing last night so long as it is not affecting my work. Criticize failing showing up at meetings - of course - if that actually is known to be the case, but I don't see the relevance of bringing private social habits into the issue beforehand.

Of course you would, while in the other hand there are plenty of rumours and stories going around about Irish ministers behaving in a way that would be an instant firing offence if word ever got out.

jank

later10 wrote: »

Not really, in the sense that one incident of a man being hungover (or so it certainly sounded) doesn't prove what the OP is saying.

.

One that we know of... see that is the issue right there, how many other times have they done this.

Let me point to a well known rumour...

http://www.politics.ie/foreign-affairs/163029-nothing-short-disgraceful-ireland-europe-3.html#post4015282

One FF Finance minister during the Tiger (i.e, not Lenihan) was allegedly famed for sleeping right through Ecofin meetings.

One infamous allegation that swept around Europe concerned a senior politician in FF in government. He was supposed to have a morning meeting with Angela Merkel. He was expected to meet his civil servants in advance but never turned up. They went to his room, where it is claimed they found him drunk, still in his previous day's suit. The civil servants had to undress him, carry him into the shower and physically shower him, shave him, dress him, and pore vast amounts of coffee down his throat in a desperate attempt to get him in a fit state to meet the Chancellor.

Politics is an extremely gossipy business but that story was well known at home and abroad. The rumours first surfaced in Europe.

So to say that FF ministers were not popular in Europe is an understatement. They were seen as arrogant and self-righteous who frequently couldn't be arsed turning up, and when they did, slept through meetings or went on the piss

Again only rumours though...;)

Enda Kenny

Enda Kenny wrote:

Now, and we will continue to work on that (The country's standing and reputation), Deputy Martin. In a way that this country was always highly rated by our European counterparts, but that slipped over a decade of non-attendance, non participation and an assumed arrogance that this country was on top of the pile and was going to stay there

Does anyone see the irony here? Enda Kenny giving out about non-attendance and the chamber is half empty!

One of my biggest bug bears. You never see PM's Question time with an empty house, why should we?

Scofflaw

ECOFIN meetings:

Minister Present|Attendee(s)|Date
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|11 July 2006
NO|Mr Bobby MCDONAGH|
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|7 November 2006
NO|Mr Tom PARLON T.D.|
NO|Mr Bobby MCDONAGH|28 November 2006
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|30 January 2007
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|27 February 2007
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|27 March 2007
NO|Mr Bobby McDONAGH|8 May 2007
NO|Mr Bobby MCDONAGH|5 June 2007
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|10 July 2007
NO|Mr Noel AHERN|
NO|Mr Bobby MCDONAGH|9 October 2007
NO|Mr Bobby McDONAGH|13 November 2007
NO|Mr Noel AHERN|
NO|Mr Bobby McDONAGH|4 December 2007
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|22 January 2008
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|12 February 2008
YES|Mr Brian COWEN|4 March 2008
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|14 May 2008
NO|Mr Bobby McDONAGH|8 July 2008
YES|M. Brian LENIHAN|le 4 novembre 2008
NO|M. Martin MANSERGH|le 21 novembre 2008
NO|Mr Bobby McDONAGH|2 December 2008
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|20 January 2009
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|10 February 2009
NO|Mr Bobby McDONAGH|10 March 2009
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|5 May 2009
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|9 June 2009
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|7 July 2009
NO|Mr Martin MANSERGH|10 July 2009
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|20 October 2009
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|10 November 2009
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|2 December 2009
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|19 January 2010
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAM|16 February 2010
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|16 March 2010
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|18 May 2010
NO|M. Martin MANSERGH|le 13 juillet 2010
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|7 September 2010
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|19 October 2010
NO|Mr Martin MANSERGH|15 November 2010
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|17 November 2010
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|7 December 2010
NO|Mr Martin MANSEARGH|11 November 2010
NO|Mr Rory MONTGOMERY|18 January 2011
YES|Mr Brian LENIHAN|15 February 2011
YES|Mr Michael NOONAN|15 March 2011
YES|Mr Michael NOONAN|17 May 2011

Bobby McDonagh and Rory Montgomery are both Perm Rep members. I would consider no Minister in attendance from February to December 2009 as pretty much a "year-long absence".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zubeneschamali

NO Mr Bobby McDONAGH 8 May 2007
NO Mr Bobby MCDONAGH 5 June 2007

We had a General Election on 24th May 2007, called on 29th of April. Cowen was appointed Tánaiste on the 14th of June, so I'll guess he was not in brussels during this period.

dynamick

May 6th Eurogroup finance meeting: No Irish representative attended
June 14th ECOFIN meeting: Noonan in the US pretending to burn Anglo seniors.

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

ECOFIN meetings:
[...]
I would consider no Minister in attendance from February to December 2009 as pretty much a "year-long absence".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Some points re: no Minister from February to December.
(1)(i) The dates in question are not February to December. Martin Mansergh was a Minister of State at the Dept. of Finance and he appeared at ECFIN for the budget in July.
(ii)Furthermore, you do not record an ECOFIN meeting attended by Brian Lenihan in Brussels on September 2nd 2009, the same day that Eurogroup met. In fact Eurogroup meetings are not specifically recorded at all, to my knowledge.

(2) You seem to be ignoring some aspects of work that Lenihan was engaged in over the Sprimg-Autumn of 2009, with (in this order) work on the supplementary budget, the Finance bill, campaigning on the Local and European elections, dealing with an Bord snip, then the draft law on NAMA, as well of course as campaigning for the re run of the Lisbon Treaty it was a particularly busy time for the MfF. In suggesting that the ECOFIN were distressed about not seeing him face to face for a relatively short space of time, I think you are unwisely dismissing the relevance of Lisbon to the European leaders at that time.

The charge of ignoring Europe is all the more incredible when one considers that prior to the bank guarantee of 2008, Ireland had only called on its p.reps twice in that year.
Already FG have called on them 4 times - it just shows the pressure that the government is now under.

I don't think it's even appropriate just to look at ecofin. Here is a more conclusive table of ministerial attendances.

29TH DAIL
No. of meeting|Date of meeting|Minister or Rep.
2471|11.7.2006|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2742 |14.7.2006|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH/ PR
2473 |17.7.2006|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2744|17-18.7.2006|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2745 |18.7.2006|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2747 |24.7.2006|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2746|24.7.2006|MR MICHAEL MCDOWELL TD
ECM|1.8.2006|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
ECM|25.8.2006|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2748/9|15.9.2006|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2750 |18.9.2006|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2751|25.9.2006|MR MICHEAL MARTIN
2752|5-6.10.2006|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2754|12.10.2006|MR MARTIN CULLEN TD
2755 |17.10.2006|MR NOEL TREACY TD
2757 |23.10.2006|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2758|25.10.2006|MR JOHN BROWNE TD
2759 |7.11.2006|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
ECM|7.11.2006|MR TONY KILLEEN TD
2762|13-14.11.2006|MS SILE DE VALERA TD
2760 |13.11.2006|MR NOEL TREACY TD
2763 |21-21.11.2006|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2764 |21.11.2006|MR TOM PARLON TD
2765 |23.11.2006|MR NOEL DEMPSEY TD
2766 |28.11.2006|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH/ PR
2769 |4.12.2006|MR MICHAEL AHERN TD
2767 |4.12.2006|MR TONY KILLEEN TD
2768 |4.12.2006|MR MICHAEL MC DOWELL TD
2772|11-12.12.2006|MR MARTIN CULLEN TD
2770 |11.12.2006|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2773|18.12.2006|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2774|19-21.12.2006|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2775||22.1.2007|MR NOEL TREACY TD
2778|30.1.2007|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2777 |29.1.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2779|12.2.2007|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2782 |15.12.2007|MR NOEL DEMPSEY TD
2781|15.2.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2783 |16.2.2007|MR SEAN HAUGHEY TD
2784 |19.2.2007|MR MICHEAL MARTIN
2785|20.2.2007|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2786 |22.2.2007|MR TONY KILLEEN TD
2787 |27.2.2007|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2788 |5.3.2007|MR NOEL TREACY TD
2790 |19.3.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2791 |22.3.2007|MR MARTIN CULLEN TD
2792 |27.3.2007|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2793 |16.4.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2794 |19-20.4.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R

29TH DAIL WAS NOW DISSOLVED

No. of meeting|Date of meeting|Minister or Rep.
2797 |7.5.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2798 |8.5.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2801|22.5.2007|MR KENNETH THOMPSON P/R
2799|14.5.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH
2802| 24-25.5.2007|MR KENNETH THOMPSON P/R
2803 |30-31.5.2007|MR TONY KILLEEN TD


30TH DAIL
No. of meeting|Date of meeting|Minister or Rep.
2804|5.7.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2806 |11-12.6.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2807 |12-13.6.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2808 |17-18..6.2007|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2810 |n/a/
2811 |25.6.2007|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2812 |28.6.2007|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2813|10.7.2007|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2814 |13.7.2007|MR NOEL AHERN TD
2815 |16.7.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2816 & 2817|23.7.2006|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2818|18.9.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH
2819|16.9.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2820|28.9.2007|MR MICHAEL AHERN TD
2821|1-2.10.2007|MR KENNETH THOMPSON
2822|9.10.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH
2823/4|15-16.10.2007|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2825|22-23.10.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2826|30.10.2007|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2827|8-9.11.2007|MR SEAN POWER TD
2828|13.11.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2829|15-16.11.2007|MS MARY HARNEY TD
2830/31|19.11.2007|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2832|22-23.11.2007|MR MICHAEL AHERN TD
2833|23.11.2007|MR NOEL AHERN TD
2834|26.11.2007|N/A
2835|29-30.11.2007|MR EAMON RYAN TD
2836|4.12.2007|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2837|5.12.2007|MR PAT THE COPE GALLAGHER TD
2838|6.12.2007|N/A/
2839/40|10.12.2007|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2841|17-19.12.2007|MS MARY COUGHLAN
2842|20.12.2007|MR TONY KILLEEN TD
2844|22.1.2008|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2843|21.1.2008|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2845.6|28.1.2008|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2856|3.3.2008|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2847|12.2.2008|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2848|14.2.2008|MR SEAN HAUGHEY TD
2851 & 2850|18-19.2.2008|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2849|18.2.2008|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2852|25.2.2008|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2854|28.2.2008|MR EAMON RYAN TD
2853|28.2.2008|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
2855|9.2.2008|MR BILLY KELLEHER TD
2857|4.3.2008|MR BRIAN COWEN TD
2858.9|10-11.3.2008|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2860|11.3.2008|N/A
2861|7.4.2008|MR NOEL DEMPSEY TD
2862|14.4.2008|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2863|18.4.2008|MR SEAN POWER TD
ECM|13.5.2008|N/A
2866|14.5.2008|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
2867|19.5.2008|N/A
2868|21-22.5.2008|MR BATT O KEEFE TD
2869/70|26-27.5.2008|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2871|29-30.5.2008|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2873|5-6.6.2008|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2875|6.6.2008|MR EAMON RYAN
2876|9-10.6.2008|MR BILLY KELLEHER TD
2877|12-13.6.2008|MR NOEL DEMPSEY TD
2878/79|17.6.2008N/A
2881|23-24.6.2008|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2882|8.7.2008|MR BILLY KELLEHER TD
2884|15.7.2008|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2883|17.7.2008|N/A
ECM|18-21.7.2008|MR JOHN MC GUINNESS TD
2885/6||22-29.7.2008|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2887|24-25.7.2008|MR CONOR LENIHAN TD
ECM|13.8.2008|MR PETER POWER TD
2888 & 2889|15-16.9.2008|MR JOHN MC GUINNESS TD
2891|25.9.2008|N/A
2890|25.9.2008|MR BOBBY MC DONAGH P/R
2892|29-30.9.2008|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2894|7.10.2008|N/A
2895|9-10.10.2008|MR EAMON RYAN TD
2896/7|13.10.2008|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2898|20.10.2008|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2899|24.10.2008|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2900|27-28.10.2008|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2901|4.11.2008|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
2902 & 2903|11.11.2008|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2904|18-20.11.2008|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2905|20.11.2008|N/A
2906|21.11.2008|MR MARTIN MANSERGH TD
2907|27.11.2008|MR EAMON RYAN TD
2908 |27.11.2008|N/A
2909|28.11.2008|N/A
2910|1-2.12.2008|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2911|2.12.2008|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2912|4.12.2008|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2914 & 2915|8.12.2008|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2913 |8-9.12.2008|MR EAMON RYAN
2916|16-17.12.2008|MS MARY HANAFIN TD
2917|18-19.12.2008|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
ECM|9.1.2009|N/A
2919|20.1.2009|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
2918|19.1.2009|N/A
2920 & 2921|26.1.2009|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2922|10.2.2009|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
2925/6|23.2.2009|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2927|26-27.2.2009|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2928|2.3.2009|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2929|5-6.3.2009|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2930|9.3.2009|MS MARY HANAFIN TD
2931|10.3.2009|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2932 & 2933|16..3.2009|MR BOBBY MCDONAGH P/R
2934|23.3.2009|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2935|30.3.2009|N/A
2936|6.4.009|MR CONOR LENIHAN TD
2937|16.4.2009|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2938/9|27.4.2009|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
ECM|30.4.2009|MS MARY HARNEY TD
2940|5.5.2009|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2941|11-12.5.2009|MR BATT O KEEFE TD
2942/3|18.5.2009|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2944|25.5.2009|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2945|28-29.5.2009|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2946|4.6.2009|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2949|5.6.2009|MR EAMON RYAN TD
2947|8-9.6.2009|MS MARY HARNEY TD
2948|9.6.2009|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2950 & 2951|15.6.2009|MR MICHEAL MARTIN
2952|22-23.6.2009|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2953|5.6.2009|N/A
2954|7.7.2009|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2955|10.7.2009|MR MARTIN MANSERGH TD
2956|13.7.2009|N/A
2957/8|27.7.2009|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2.9.2009|informal meeting of all ECOFIN ministers|
2959|7.9.2009|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2960 & 61|14-15.9.2009|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2962|21.9.2009|N/A
2963|24-25.9.2009|MR CONOR LENIHAN TD
2964|9.10.2009|N/A
2965|12.10.2009|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
2966|19-20.10.2009|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2967|20.10.2009|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2968|21.10.2009|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2969|23.10.2009|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2970/1|26-27.10.2009|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2972|10.11.2009|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2973/4|16-17.11.2009|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2977|23.11.2009|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
2978|26-27.11.2009|MR BATT O KEEFE TD
2980|30.11 - 1.12.2009|MS MARY HARNEY TD
2979|30.11 - 1.12.2009|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
2981|2.12.2009|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
2982|3-4.12.2009|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
2984|7.12.2009|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2983|7.12.2009|MR EAMON RYAN TD
2985|8.12.2009|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2986|14-16.12.2009|MR BRENDAN SMITH
2987|17-18.12.2009|MR NOEL DEMPSEY
2989|18.1.2010|MR BRENDAN SMITH
ESFA|18.01.2010.|N/A
2990|19.01.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
2991|25.1.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2992|25.1.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
2993|15.02.2010|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
2994|16.2.2010|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
2995|22.2.2010|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
2997/6|22.2.2010|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
2998|25-26.2.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
2999|1-2.2.2010|MS MARY COUGHLAN TD
3000|8.3.2010|MR DARA CALLEARY TD
3001|11-12.3.2010|MR EAMON RYAN TD
3002|15.3.2010|MR JOHN GORMLEY TD
3003|16.3.2010|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
3005|22.2.2010|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
3004|22.3.2010|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
3006|29.3.2010|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
19.4.2010|N/A
3008|23.4.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3009|26.4.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3010|26.4.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
ECM|4.5.2010|MR NOEL DEMPSEY TD
3011|10.5.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3012|10.5.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3013|10-11.5.2010|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3014|17.5.2010|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3015|18.5.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3016|25-26.5.2010|MR BATT O KEEFE TD
3017|31.5.2010|MR EAMON RYAN TD
3018|3-4.6.2010|MR DERMOT AHERN
3017|8.6.2010|N/A
3021|11.6.2010|MR CIARAN CUFFE TD
3023|14.6.2010|N/A
3024|24.6.2010|MR NOEL DEMPSEY TD
3025|29.6.2010|MR SEAN CONNICK TD
3026|12.7.2010|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
3027|13.7.2010|MR MARTIN MANSERGH TD
3028 & 3029|26.7.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3030|7.9.2010|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
3031|10.9.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3032|13.9.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
EFACM|16.9.2010|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
3033|27.10.2010|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
3034|7-8.10.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
3035|11-12.10.2010|MR BATT O KEEFE TD
3036|14.10.2010|MR CIARAN CUFFE TD
3037|15.10.2010|MR NOEL DEMPSEY TD
3038|19.10.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
3039|21.10.2010|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3040|25.10.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3041|25.10.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3042|27.10.2010|MR SEAN CONNICK TD
3043|9-9.11.2010|MR DERMOT AHERN TD
ECM|10.11.2010|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3044|11.11.2010|MR MARTIN MANSERGH TD
3045|17.11.2010|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
3046|18-19.11.2010|MR SEAN HAUGHEY TD
3047/822.11.2010|MR MICHEAL MARTIN TD
3049|25-26.11.2010|MR CONOR LENIHAN TD
3050|29.11.2010|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
3051|2-3.12.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY P/R
3052|2-3.12.2010|MR EAMON RYAN TD
3053|6-7.12.2010|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3054|7.12.2010|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3055|9.12.2010|MR MICHAEL HOWARD
3059|13-14.12.2010|MR BRENDAN SMITH TD
3058|13.12.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3060|14.12.2010|MR DICK ROCHE TD
3061|20.12.2010|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON


RUN UP TO ELECTION 2011 & AFTERMATH
No. of meeting|Date of meeting|Minister or Rep.
3062|18.1.2011|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3063|24.1.2011|MR TOM MORAN
2064|31.1.2011|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3065|31.1.2011|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3066|14.2.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3067|15.2.2011|MR BRIAN LENIHAN TD
3070|21.2.2011|MR TOM MORAN
3068|21.2.2011|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3069|21.2.2011|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3071|24-25.2.2011|MR RORY MONTGOMERY
3072|28.2.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3073|7.3.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3074|9-10.3.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON


31st DAIL
No. of meeting|Date of meeting|Minister or Rep.
EFAM|10.3.2011|N/A
3075|14.3.2011|MR PHIL HOGAN TD
3076|15.3.2011|MR MICHAEL NOONAN TD
3077|17.3.2011|MR SIMON COVENEY TD
3078/9|21.3.2011|MS LUCINDA CREIGHTON TD
ECM|--|MR PAT RABBITE TD
3080|31.3.2011|MR LEO VARADKAR TD
3081|11-12.3.2011|MR ALAN SHATTER TD
3082|12.4.2011|MR EAMON GILMORE TD
3083|13.4.2011|MS LUCINDA CREIGHTON TD
3084|14.4.2011|MR SIMON COVENEY TD
3085|12.5.2011|MS KATHLEEN LYNCH TD
3088|13.5.2011|MR RICHARD BRUTON TD
3087|17.3.2011|MR SIMON COVENEY
3088|17.5.2011|MR MICHAEL NOONAN TD
3089|19.5.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3090|19-20.5.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3091|23-24.5.2011|MS LUCINDA CREIGHTON TD
3092|23.5.2011|MS LUCINDA CREIGHTON
3093|27.5.2011|MR PAT RABITTE
3094|30-31.5.2011|MR RICHARD BRUTON TD
3095|6.6.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
ECM|7.6.2011|MR SIMON COVENEY TD
3096|9-10.6.2011|MR ALAN SHATTER TD
3097|10.6.2011|MS GERALDINE BYRNE NASON
3098|16.6.2011|MR LEO VARADKAR TD

Scofflaw

I think you are unwisely dismissing the relevance of Lisbon to the European leaders at that time.

I'm certainly not dismissing its relevance to European leaders - but I am quite aware of how it was treated by Fianna Fáil. Material for Lisbon, for example, started being prepared only about 6 weeks in advance of the campaign. The day following the vote it was taken down to make way for the local elections campaign - which was, at that point, a year away.

On the attendance records - I must say I don't really consider it meaningful to reckon that nearly a year's absence of the Finance Minister from ECOFIN meetings was "interrupted" by attendance of a different Minister at, say, Agriculture meetings.

cordially,
Scofflaw

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm certainly not dismissing its relevance to European leaders - but I am quite aware of how it was treated by Fianna Fáil. Material for Lisbon, for example, started being prepared only about 6 weeks in advance of the campaign. The day following the vote it was taken down to make way for the local elections campaign - which was, at that point, a year away.

Lisbon 2 was in 2009, four months after the local elections. That is the time line in question, and campaigning was far more intense at that time than it was in 2008. In that context, along with all the budgetary and spending corrections being undertaken (mini budget/ finance bill/ NAMA/ an bord snip) as well as one set of local elections and a national referendum which was being rerun for Europe, I think missing a handful of meetings is excusable. Particularly because at that stage Ireland was still in control of her own funding, and it was imperative that the Minister's focus firstly be on his own economy. Having said that, there were two more meetings (at least - we don't know about the other Eurogroups) that you have not included.

Therefore the time in question is not March - November, it is March to July. A period of exactly 4 months.

I didn't post the information on all ministerial meetings to excuse a 4 month gap in finance, I did it to demonstrate that, overall, ministers were extremely active. The times they were not active are almost always associated with major domestic events - overall, the black spots of absences correlate with (1) national elections or (2) referenda or (3) local elections or (4)the budget and finally (5)a domestic politicial crisis. I haven't highlighted these on the list, but they should be apparent.

Otherwise, we see a strong engagement by our Ministers with their European counterparts - at least on the face of it, in that they were regular attendees. In fact, I have in many cases only posted the name of one attendee, frequently there were two (particularly for agriculture and fisheries) and more than one one occasion, four ministers present. I am actually surprised by some of the high attendances, certainly the ministers appear to miss a far lesser proportion of European meetings than they do Dail sittings.

So, overall I would have to strongly disagree with your initial statement that Enda is "on the money" in talking about disgraceful behaviour of Ministers in not attending meetings. It is possible that he is talking of the period January-February 2011, but campaigning for the general election was well underway by then, I don't think that is a reasonable criticism.

Obviously, his predecessors were under significant pressure at some periods, but if you look back at their engagement with Europe before the crisis came in earnest, say, in September 2008 - just look at how few meetings were mised, and then tell me that Fianna Fail were disengaged.

It does not add up.

What has been shown in terms of attendance figures is that

(i)"Irish ministers appear to have dropped the ball (too busy at home with the property supplements)," - is not true

(ii)"year-long absences from regular EU meetings" - is not true,

and needless to say that

"Irish ministers failing to show to morning meetings because they were either hung-over or still drunk" - is still just vacuous gossip, quite possibly embellished by EU flunkeys, and clearly has no political relevance at all.

You also use Enda Kenny's comments as some sort of revelation - "I did think my opinion of Fianna Fáil couldn't get any lower, but I was wrong." without seeming to appreciate that he wasn't so much revealing anything as responding to a criticism by Micheal Martin that the Taoiseach has been engaging in a hands off approach, and indeed there are similar criticisms (see Namawinelake) on Minister Noonan, who has not attended the previous two Eurogroup meetings.

transylman

later10 wrote: »

Not really, in the sense that one incident of a man being hungover (or so it certainly sounded) doesn't prove what the OP is saying.

Maybe if Cowen had a habit of missing early morning interviews and traipsing into Kildare Street at 11am with a chicken fillet baguette and a bottle of lucozade, we could say there was form there.

Don't know about the lucozade but he did have a habit of missing interviews. In Pat Leahys book showtime he relates two Cowen stories:

The IFA in particular complained to Ahern on one occasion when during a visit to IFA HQ the agriculture spokesman Brian Cowen appeared wholly disinterested. On another occasion during a visit to Brussels to represent the party and attend a key Brussels meeting along with the IFA, Cowen was to appear on Morning Ireland. Minutes before the interview was scheduled to start his staffers still couldn’t locate him. One staffer entered his room to find the agriculture spokesman fast asleep just minutes before appearing on the most listened to radio show in the country.

Thats about as close to confirmation as you will get without a breathalyzer.

later12

transylman wrote: »

Don't know about the lucozade but he did have a habit of missing interviews. In Pat Leahys book showtime he relates two Cowen stories:

You do know that the quote from Showtime relates to the mid 1990s, right? And that it relates to Cowen's apathy about the shadow portfolio at the time, not anything more personal?

It shows that in the mid 1990s, Cowen, with two young children - and who was not in government - almost missed an interview because he was worn out. Stop the press. Has Geraldine Kennedy heard this?

Ok I'm going to bow out of this debate now, because 4 pages on it is still about rumour and conjecture, and people believing things that they want to believe even in the face of contrary evidence.