Whats the next curve ball?

There was a great write up about this on Bloodyelbow.
Link

I've been hearing some newer fans to the sport talk about their affinity for judo. They exaggerate the applicability of the art in MMA, but there is something to the growth and development of judo players in the sport or even just typical throws being properly executed by typical fighters. But to what extent do the top judo players in the judo sport make their way successfully into MMA? Sergio Non explores:

Among the thousands of MMA competitors over the years, few have a high-level judo background. The judomma.com site lists just 31 MMA fighters who have medaled in national or international judo competitions over the last two decades. Within that group, the number at MMA's elite level can be counted on two hands:

[Karo] Parisyan, winner of six belts at U.S. Judo's junior nationals before entering MMA.

Pawel Nastula, who fought four times in Pride FC after a distinguished judo career that included two world championships, three European titles and a gold at the 1996 Olympics.

Hidehiko Yoshida, 1992 Olympic gold medalist and 1999 world before becoming a Pride favorite and now a headliner for World Victory Road.

Dong-Sik Yoon, Pride and Dream competitor, winner of the 2000 Asian Championships, bronze medalist at the 2001 worlds.

Fedor Emelianenko, former Pride champion and a two-time bronze medalist in Russia's judo championships, although he's mainly known for his prowess in another grappling speciality, combat sambo.

Yoshihiro Akiyama, a K-1 superstar who now fights for Dream; he won the 2002 Asian Games and made the semifinals of the 2003 world championships, albeit with controversy over a slick uniform.

Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou, Pride and UFC fighter, 2001 U.S. Open champion.

Kazuhiro Nakamura, veteran of Pride and UFC, and a bronze medalist at Japanese nationals.

Of that group, Emelianenko is the only one who has won a title belt from a major MMA organization.

The fighters in the judomma.com database have a combined MMA record of 175-83-4. Almost half of those wins come from five fighters: Emelianenko, Parisyan, Hector Lombard, Nakamura and Akiyama.

A few fighters have studied judo extensively, but lack wins at the sport's top level. They include Shinya Aoki, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Hayato Sakurai, Kazuo Misaki, Shonie Carter and Tsuyoshi Kohsaka.

Even though the number of judokas remains small, it's an improvement from MMA's first few years, which were dominated by BJJ practitioners, wrestlers, shootfighters and strikers. Now, even some fighters who aren't necessarily judo specialists have incorporated its moves into their repertoire.

All too true, but there are some problems with this analysis.

First, in the case of Yoshida, Yoon, Akiyama and Nakamura, all have fought with the gi in MMA matches in Japan. Granted, they've also all fought without the gi, but the lack of consistency there makes drawing some conclusions difficult. Second, despite the fact that there are hundreds of throws, only a handful of throws have been used successfully in MMA: harai ogoshi, uchi mata, osoto gari, tai otoshi and various forms of seo nage. No gi jiu-jitsu has limitations in some respects and is a different game than the gi game, but it does, overall, adapt far better to MMA than judo. And while high level judo players have great submissions, "newaza" isn't as highly emphasized in judo circles as it is in jiu-jitsu. Lastly, there are a lot of throws that even if properly executed end up giving the opposition the thrower's back. Parisyan usually finds a way out of this, but wrestlers with good guard passing are much more able to land in dominant positions and avoid some of the recklessness that comes from throws.

Still, though, the growth of judo on MMA and the infusion of top judo players is yet another example of the continued evolution of MMA.

fightireland

Marty Mc wrote: »

Judo without the gi = wrestling.

ah c'mon that has to be a joke?

fightireland

fightireland wrote: »

ah c'mon that has to be a joke?

I was hoping it was too. Very subtle trolling

arybvtcw0eolkf

fightireland wrote: »

ah c'mon that has to be a joke?

Why a joke?.

Just based on my own personal experience I'd suggest the only difference between no-gi judo, no-gi BJJ and wrestling is a set of rules, ando supple differences in technique.

I'd say they could all be put under the umbrella of 'wrestling' styles.

riffmongous

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a great write up about this on Bloodyelbow.
Link

Good read.

As a judo fan, Parisyan was great, out of all the fighters mentioned in that article he was the most recognisable as a judo-based fighter imo (even compared to Yoshida in a gi).

I know its been asked loads of times before but does anyone think we'll ever see a high-level boxer with high level takedown defense in mma? Or is it even possible to train top level boxing alongside the wrestling defence needed to survive at the highest level?

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

I know its been asked loads of times before but does anyone think we'll ever see a high-level boxer with high level takedown defense in mma? Or is it even possible to train top level boxing alongside the wrestling defence needed to survive at the highest level?

Maybe Dos Santos if he can stay on his feet against Cain. As Cerrone showed on Saturday you can't be aggressive on the feet without worrying about the takedown.

cowzerp

High level boxers make way too much money so it's not likely you'll get 1 in Mma unless there past it and not earning big money, a few years ago Dana called out any champion boxer to fight any UFC champ and kermit citron offered to fight Sean sherk who was the champion and Dana made his excuses, Cintron had been a decent wrestler in high school and was peak in boxing with serious power.

What we will see is more Mma fighters who are capable at boxing like dos santos but certainly not top level boxers.

Marty Mc

Fightireland - why would i troll?

Wrestling is one of, if not, thee oldest sport on the planet - 'judo throws' evolved from wrestling. The diff was the practicioners applied the use of the gi and refined the technique to suit their sport.

Judo is based on gi work and grips to set up throws.

If you take away the gi - is it judo? can a judo player still perform the techniques without the grip of cloth?

I would say some but a majority of techniques - no.

Therefore i refer to my first statement - judo without the gi = wrestling.

fightireland

Marty Mc wrote: »

Fightireland - why would i troll?

Wrestling is one of, if not, thee oldest sport on the planet - 'judo throws' evolved from wrestling. The diff was the practicioners applied the use of the gi and refined the technique to suit their sport.

Judo is based on gi work and grips to set up throws.

If you take away the gi - is it judo? can a judo player still perform the techniques without the grip of cloth?

I would say some but a majority of techniques - no.

Therefore i refer to my first statement - judo without the gi = wrestling.

Ah now trolling is far more serious that what I accused you of, which was simply having a laugh.

I guess I saw this as some how insulting the traditions of Judo....but I guess I got it all wrong.

The Bored One

So as the striking for MMA for gets more refined, what do people think it will start to look like? Its obviously a good bit crisper now than it was in the past, though still more than a few people who take the swinging for the fences approach. And how do you think the form of it will differ from the pure striking styles?

Logical Fallacy

Richy06 wrote: »

Karo Parysian already did adapt his judo for MMA. Sadly his personal problems destroyed a once highly promising career.

Indeed he did, but it didn't have enough impact on the overall body of MMA fighters because he never won a belt.

I might be a bit off with this, but i reckon it's only when someone wins a belt and holds it for a while that people really start to break down their style and examine the facets of their game and these then get soaked up into the sport as a new standard.

cowzerp

Just because 1 or 2 people can use there skills in an unusual way does not mean it will be effective if used by others, Judo without grips is very difficult and only a very select few could use it..

Judo while a great sport will never become a major player in MMA, its just too difficult to learn and the time could be better served learning Greco and freestyle wrestling

Xlami

I agree that Wrestling is the best base. While I don't ever see judo being a major player in MMA in can compliment Greco-Roman very well. It's something Jon Jones does a lot, combine the two and performs spectacular throws.

lukeyjudo

cowzerp wrote: »

Judo while a great sport will never become a major player in MMA

Never say never

its just too difficult to learn

I disagree. Depends on your coach.

tadix

i think that the basic styles for mma (boxing,muay thai,wrestling bjj ect)are baisicly set at this stage but i do think that there are techniques that will people will begin to use more such as the sidekick ,superman jab and some of eddie bravo's positions like rubber gaurd and the truck.

Logical Fallacy

cowzerp wrote: »

Just because 1 or 2 people can use there skills in an unusual way does not mean it will be effective if used by others, Judo without grips is very difficult and only a very select few could use it..

Judo while a great sport will never become a major player in MMA, its just too difficult to learn and the time could be better served learning Greco and freestyle wrestling

Cheers for the explanation man, i'll definitely defer to your much greater knowledge.

cowzerp

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Cheers for the explanation man, i'll definitely defer to your much greater knowledge.

Hi bud
Long time no talk

That's just an opinion, not a matter of fact-maybe the next evolution in Mma will be judo and I will br proved wrong.

Logical Fallacy

cowzerp wrote: »

Hi bud
Long time no talk

Hey mate, yeah i've been in low key land dealing with assorted health issues. As soon as i am right again i'll be out to a Rush show.

Mellor

Xlami wrote: »

I agree that Wrestling is the best base. While I don't ever see judo being a major player in MMA in can compliment Greco-Roman very well. It's something Jon Jones does a lot, combine the two and performs spectacular throws.

Jons does a lot of throws, but that comes from him being a incredibly strong wrestler and not somebody that is incorporating judo. H

tadix wrote: »

i think that the basic styles for mma (boxing,muay thai,wrestling bjj ect)are baisicly set at this stage but i do think that there are techniques that will people will begin to use more such as the sidekick ,superman jab and some of eddie bravo's positions like rubber gaurd and the truck.

That's the way i see it. They are just part of MT or BJJ or what ever, as each area of training becomes optimised for MMA, and not just learning the full range of each.
THe vast majority of BJJ techniques don't work in MMA, those that are used to continue to expand as people adapt existing techniques.

Easy example is Korean Zombie's twister verses Garcia, it hadn't been used much in MMA (never in the UFC), so he didn't even defend it. He was defending the RNC and actually made it easier for Zombie to pull it off.

Richy06

Jon Jones has studied judo throws as part of his offensive arsenal. He's freely admitted learning/discovering techniques from youtube and trying them out in training. His throws are technique, not just brutal "wrestler strength".

Mellor

My point he hasn't studied judo at any sort of high level, which is what was the topic, as Cowser said, it take too long to learn and time is better spent learning wrestling or something. Jon jones basically proves that point, he only needed to a bit of youtube to be one of the best at throws. No need to waste years learning it.

SDTimeout

I remember Jones saying the sub he tapped Bader with he had never drilled, only watched GSP do in training one day!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Mellor wrote: »

My point he hasn't studied judo at any sort of high level, which is what was the topic, as Cowser said, it take too long to learn and time is better spent learning wrestling or something. Jon jones basically proves that point, he only needed to a bit of youtube to be one of the best at throws. No need to waste years learning it.

Personally I think to try to study Judo to a high level for the soul purpose of bringing it to the cage would be folly.

Judo, in my very humble opinion, is just too complicated.

As an example in a Judo class I can set up my throws (Osoto Gari, Uchi Mata, Harai Goshi) with foot techniques (Ashiwaza) and grip fighting.. When I try to apply my judo without the Gi 90 percent of my Judo is redundant - and tbh I struggle.

riffmongous

Ximena Huge Thermostat wrote: »

Personally I think to try to study Judo to a high level for the soul purpose of bringing it to the cage would be folly.

Judo, in my very humble opinion, is just too complicated.

As an example in a Judo class I can set up my throws (Osoto Gari, Uchi Mata, Harai Goshi) with foot techniques (Ashiwaza) and grip fighting.. When I try to apply my judo without the Gi 90 percent of my Judo is redundant - and tbh I struggle.

Do you think it would be easier though if you spent dedicated time practicing those throws without the gi, say going 50/50 on training?
Has anyone here actually looked at Karo's book by any chance? He talks about how to convert the regular judo grips into wrestling grips to allow you to perform versions of most judo throws. So say for Osoto gari, you normally use a sleeve and lapel grip (I think, its been a long time for me), and he shows how to do it instead using a regular wrist and collar tie.

arybvtcw0eolkf

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you think it would be easier though if you spent dedicated time practicing those throws without the gi, say going 50/50 on training?
Has anyone here actually looked at Karo's book by any chance? He talks about how to convert the regular judo grips into wrestling grips to allow you to perform versions of most judo throws. So say for Osoto gari, you normally use a sleeve and lapel grip (I think, its been a long time for me), and he shows how to do it instead using a regular wrist and collar tie.

I haven't, tbh at the moment I'm guilty of being a 'jack of all trades and master of none' when I should really be concentrating on Judo in preparation for a points off my dan grade.

Barry.Oglesby

I think people picked me up wrong and went on the Judo-defensive!

Prominent Judo players might well come into the game and do well, it would make life interesting that's for sure, but I genuinely think we're approaching endgame for any new "styles".

Wrestling/grappling/judo... when you do enough of it it all starts to look the same. I'd go so far as to say the difference in "styles" is as much to do with culture as what art people are studying. The same way certain gyms have certain styles within systems and an experienced eye can tell what club or gym someone comes from.

It's all becoming one. Whether or not that's a good thing depends entirely on your point of view.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Wrestling/grappling/judo... when you do enough of it it all starts to look the same.

As I said earlier, Judo without the gi and a rule set is wrestling.

Throw someone to the ground from the clinch and most commentators will refer to it as a ''Judo flip'', although I've never heard of such a thing the end result is (hopefully) the opponent on their back and the attacker in a dominant position.

I'd love to work with Luke Corcoran on No-Gi take downs for awhile to improve that aspect of my wrestling/grappling.

In the mean time Paul Cowzer has brought my newaza (ground game) to a new level recently.

Esp. attacking from my back, where before I was content to lay there and hopefully work a choke, now I'm looking at attacks on the arms as well as escapes/sweeps.

Damn, was forgetting this was the MMA forum and getting myself wrapped up in wrestling/grappling.... Good thread OP.

riffmongous

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think people picked me up wrong and went on the Judo-defensive!

Prominent Judo players might well come into the game and do well, it would make life interesting that's for sure, but I genuinely think we're approaching endgame for any new "styles".

Wrestling/grappling/judo... when you do enough of it it all starts to look the same. I'd go so far as to say the difference in "styles" is as much to do with culture as what art people are studying. The same way certain gyms have certain styles within systems and an experienced eye can tell what club or gym someone comes from.

It's all becoming one. Whether or not that's a good thing depends entirely on your point of view.

I'd pretty much agree with you about everything becoming one, and basically everything that doesn't work being stripped away to a point where you can't really compare it to its original 'style'.

But I would just wonder if certain disciplines have given all they have to give yet, especially judo, since as far as I am aware there is not a huge number of experienced, high level, no-gi coaches. I fully agree on the no-gi=wrestling thing, (I'd see it as close to catch wrestling) here I mean coaches who were originally high level judo then moved to no-gi, like if Parisyan started coaching.
I'd just wonder if you had more people being trained in no-gi, by coaches experienced at using that style, would more of its moves be adapted and used succesfully. Or would it quickly just be seen to be that the coaches were specially talented athletes.

mr1percent

fightireland wrote: »

The best answer I have heard on this comes from Dana to be honest; when he (roughly) said "the paradigm is shifting now the super athletes that would have gone on to play basketball or football (NFL) are taking up MMA as their chosen sport"

A very intuitive statement in my opinion....

I am sure this has nothing to do with Dana wanting bigger/non combat related advertising revenue.
I think the biggest shift in "techniques" will be the heavy hitters of global advertising coming on board like Pepsi/Coke and Pat The Baker