The greed of some "golfers".....

gary29428

Was playing in an Am-Am the other week and it was won with 107pts with two to count on each hole. Was a very tuf day on a tuf course, second was 93pts. So these guys that won it have won this particular comp 3 times in 4 years. One of them got cut 2.5 by there club last year on GP and is again out to the same h'cap. Think about there score, they had 17 six pointers... there h'caps range from 17 to 25. As a low single figure golfer this gets right up my hole. It's bulls**t to constantly put in bad scores to boost your h'cap only to come out in these Am-Am's and shot the lights and pick up what are in most cases very valuable prices. This has stirred a right bit of uproar in the area. The organisers are sick to there stomacks of these gobs**ts, it's the comp that will suffer (it's for charity) as a lot of people I've spoken to will not play it again. Is there a way to exclude certain people from an Am-Am, to simply tell them they can't play....p*ss off.

death1234567

gary29428 wrote: »

Is there a way to exclude certain people from an Am-Am, to simply tell them they can't play....p*ss off.

I'm sure whoever is organising the competition has the right of refusal for any entries. Just give the bandits a quick "Sorry, we have had to decline your entry at this time".

Kevinmarkham

Yep, it's a joke how often this happens, but it's about the integrity of the golfers. If they decide that they want to win, they can make it up as they go along. If the organisers are that concerned (or the golf club, or anyone else for that matter), then someone needs to go out and watch them play one or two holes. If they know they're being watched...

But this is a typical problem when there are good prizes at stake. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but I think most of us have come across something very similar. How you stop it is another matter entirely.

Hacker111

Same in my club.. one solution is to split all teams into 2 separate groups 2 with 2 other team mebers..it goes against ethos of team event..bit of craic with friends etc ...but same guys always win or come close too often to be true...

k.p.h

What were their scores and HC ?

Plentyofice

In Kildare I was at a tournament when this happened. There was muted applause for the winning team. They won by 12 shots with back nine separating 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
One of the winnning members from this tournament in kildare is a well known small in height man playing off 12 when he should be off 3 or 4. When he arrived to play in the tournament the following year he was refused entry unless he played off 4. he duly left

irishtoffee

Same in my club we have a Wednesday 4ball and Friday 3 person team event over 14 holes and the bandits are cleaning up.These are open tournaments do no effective shots after winning.These lads only play at weekend for point 1s.

k.p.h

Sorry yeah team event. Ah I think occasionally clubs should use some mathematics to calculate the probability of some of the scores being shot.

A cat 3 players probability of shooting a -5 nett is 174/1. Lets say in a team event you get two people shooting that. Thats an approximately a 30000/1 happening. Pretty much a straight DQ unless some sort of unbelievable explanation is believed.

"Ahhh , Leadbetter was down for tea and he gave me some useful tips"..!

This has been used to DQ people in international armature golf competitions so I don't see why it can't be used at club level. You can't argue with the maths.

That said I'm hoping for a 30000/1 happening in the Presidents Prize next week :rolleyes:

gary29428

Twoz a four man team event, with the two best scores to count on each hole. H'caps were from 17 to 25, that means they had at least 2 players with a par on 17 holes. Second was 14 points less at 93pts. I was thinking about 95 to win on the day, it was in Ballinrobe so the course was not a push over. Just sick of this c**p, as a low man I am being rendered totally useless by these cowboys....tis becoming my number one pet hate of golf, along with slow play obviously.

kermitpwee

Plentyofice wrote: »

In Kildare I was at a tournament when this happened. There was muted applause for the winning team. They won by 12 shots with back nine separating 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
One of the winnning members from this tournament in kildare is a well known small in height man playing off 12 when he should be off 3 or 4. When he arrived to play in the tournament the following year he was refused entry unless he played off 4. he duly left

You can't refuse a man entry when he has a gui handicap, the problem lies with him cheating and his home club not enforcing the law. Serves the fecker right tho:D

kermitpwee

gary29428 wrote: »

Twoz a four man team event, with the two best scores to count on each hole. H'caps were from 17 to 25, that means they had at least 2 players with a par on 17 holes. Second was 14 points less at 93pts. I was thinking about 95 to win on the day, it was in Ballinrobe so the course was not a push over. Just sick of this c**p, as a low man I am being rendered totally useless by these cowboys....tis becoming my number one pet hate of golf, along with slow play obviously.

I heard the course was playing more difficult than usual which justs compounds the issue even more.

Villain

Ah you get that with every club, members going out every week shooting 25-27 points to get .1 back but are talked about as great golfers and happen to be on a lot of Club Teams.

I think a limit of Ten .1 in a year should be introduced.

Corkblowin

On any particular day someone off a high handicap can shoot the lights out - a few long putts holed, a chip in, ball going OB hits a tree and comes back to the middle of the fairway - but 3 wins out of 4 attempts is taking the piss!!!

It is up to the clubs to enforce this, although as mentioned a lot of clubs have these guys on teams. Max of 1 shot back per year is a good idea. Does the GUI ever audit how clubs administer handicaps?

Mat the trasher

In these team events it must be clear who had the score on each hole, if this guy scored on say 8 or nine holes, ie, net -5 for 8 holes. Would it not be possible to write to GUI/homeclub saying that he was scoring far better than handicap, over one or successive comps and that you suspect that the handicap is not a true reflection of ability?

Plentyofice

Can you not get cut now on general play ?. I'm sure if a strong committee in the club highlights this repetitive issue to the offending golfers club and the fact that this will only show the club in very bad light that they will have to react.
There's a well known club that got bollocked in Roscommon and one in Kildare too where there's a history of farcical handicaps. I do believe they've gotten ther comuppence though in the last couple of years. !!:)

NapoleonInRags

k.p.h wrote: »

Sorry yeah team event. Ah I think occasionally clubs should use some mathematics to calculate the probability of some of the scores being shot.

A cat 3 players probability of shooting a -5 nett is 174/1. Lets say in a team event you get two people shooting that. Thats an approximately a 30000/1 happening. Pretty much a straight DQ unless some sort of unbelievable explanation is believed.

"Ahhh , Leadbetter was down for tea and he gave me some useful tips"..!

This has been used to DQ people in international armature golf competitions so I don't see why it can't be used at club level. You can't argue with the maths.

That said I'm hoping for a 30000/1 happening in the Presidents Prize next week :rolleyes:

I read an article recently in Golf Magazine or somesuch about using the probability approach to disqualify golfers with dubious scoring patterns. It sounds like the way to go on this to be honest, although it would need to be tightly controlled.

Dr_Colossus

gary29428 wrote: »

Twoz a four man team event, with the two best scores to count on each hole. H'caps were from 17 to 25, that means they had at least 2 players with a par on 17 holes. Second was 14 points less at 93pts. I was thinking about 95 to win on the day, it was in Ballinrobe so the course was not a push over. Just sick of this c**p, as a low man I am being rendered totally useless by these cowboys....tis becoming my number one pet hate of golf, along with slow play obviously.

Saw the adverts for this Am-Am when I played an open day there last month and was considering trying to put a team together. Love the course and since it was sponsored by Golfstyle I'd imagine the prizes were good and plentiful. Glad I didn't play now given that ridiculous winning score, with only two scores to count I'd consider anything over 90pts as being in with a shout.
Are the winners all members of Ballinrobe or somewhere nearby? I thought there was some adjustment clubs could make to players who brought in good scores in team events, something like the general play adjustment? Anyway given the seemingly blatant fabrication of their score and the unlikely event of winning the Am-Am 3 out of 4 times surely they can all be cut something like 4 shots each?

Hacker111

We cut on observation if particular players win 2 or more fourball/team events on a regular basis.... helps with handicap adjustments but not the magic pencil

If people are going to cheat it ruins it for everyone, takes the fun out of competitions...unfortunately there does seem to be a lot of guys out there willinging to win at any cost... whether it is manipulating their handicaps, moving their ball, writing the wrong score etc... sad really

G1032

gary29428 wrote: »

Was playing in an Am-Am the other week and it was won with 107pts with two to count on each hole. Was a very tuf day on a tuf course, second was 93pts. So these guys that won it have won this particular comp 3 times in 4 years. One of them got cut 2.5 by there club last year on GP and is again out to the same h'cap. Think about there score, they had 17 six pointers... there h'caps range from 17 to 25. As a low single figure golfer this gets right up my hole. It's bulls**t to constantly put in bad scores to boost your h'cap only to come out in these Am-Am's and shot the lights and pick up what are in most cases very valuable prices. This has stirred a right bit of uproar in the area. The organisers are sick to there stomacks of these gobs**ts, it's the comp that will suffer (it's for charity) as a lot of people I've spoken to will not play it again. Is there a way to exclude certain people from an Am-Am, to simply tell them they can't play....p*ss off.

The guy who plays off 17 used to play off 4.
He's been getting 2 shots a year back since I can remember.
They have been causing uproar for a long time I'm afraid, but there isn't really anything that can be done.
I wasn't over in Ballinrobe on the day, but I've been told that although there were prizes on display, it didn't say what was for first. I think that the prize for 2nd and 3rd places were much better than that for first. (This is what I've been told, but that could be wrong).
Thats the only way do sort of deal with this kind of thing. Give a poor prize for 1st place if it's known bandits who have won.

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, I just want to clarify that none of them 4 guys are members in Ballinrobe.

ssbob

IMO the only way to deal with these "cheats" is ignore them on the golf course and in the clubhouse and at any events, they'll soon get the picture that this sort of behaviour is not tolerated.

Plentyofice

ssBob... sadly I couln't disagree with you more. You are dead right that they should be ignored and in kildare this club and suspect 12 handicapper have been ignored but if anything they have necks like a jockeys bo**ocks and couldn;t care once they win.
In my club if you get a prize in 2 team events the club review at the end of the year and cut you accordingly (I was 2nd twice in fourball tourneys in 2009 and cut .5) Same should happen here.
To be honest is this a question of dubious handicaps or a majic pencil ??:(

death1234567

Oh, forgot to say that there was a very large suspicsion of rampant cheating by the winning team at our club's AM-AM this year. Not sure if anything was ever done/proved.

G1032

Plentyofice wrote: »

To be honest is this a question of dubious handicaps or a majic pencil ??:(

It's not a magic pencil. Bad and all as they are they'll record what they actually score.
It's just years of handicap building.

ernieprice

The organizers should introduce a max handicap limit or retain the right to adjust any players handicap for this particular am-am.

Plentyofice

How about "NOT" showing the prizes for winning. It's a guaranteed winner as these boys might think they're playing for big prizes and when they win they should each receive and free glass of house wine as first prize with 2nd receiving 50" TV's

LuckyGent88

Unfortunetly these type of bandits are in every club. i know of 3 lads who have won 3 team of 4's in a row recently and noting much was said. They won one of the competitions by 10 points which is an awful lot in a team event.
Also, last weekend was our clubs captains prize. The scoring wasnt as good as usual which was great for the competition but i then heard that one of the qualifiers played in the open singles on the day before and had 24 points on front 9 off 15 and then only had 7 on the back. Clearly he was just out to practice before the weekend and then just pulled up. As a low handicaper that try's his best every time on the course that story really pi***d me off.

ssbob

On the contrary I played a 4 ball scramble last Friday and hit a lot of fairways long off the tee but just couldn't hit an iron to save my life where as the people I was playing with couldn't hit a fairway but were playing magic with irons and around the greens, at one stage we were 5 under with a chance to go to 7 under(eagle chip), finished off with 3 under, our handicaps were 12 to 32(lady golfer included), can happen where it all just comes together but improbable.

I am a person who wants to get cut though so have no problem with cuts in team events also.

Myksyk

The GUI also seem not to have the neck to address this issue in the small but important ways it could. A motion was defeated this year (13 to 12) to limit .1s to 20 per year, after which you could only be cut. At the moment you can get 20 .1s, be cut, then go and get another 20 .1s. This common sense proposal could have clipped the bandits' wings somewhat but was defeated. Depressing.

Sandwlch

k.p.h wrote: »

Sorry yeah team event. Ah I think occasionally clubs should use some mathematics to calculate the probability of some of the scores being shot.

A cat 3 players probability of shooting a -5 nett is 174/1. Lets say in a team event you get two people shooting that. Thats an approximately a 30000/1 happening. Pretty much a straight DQ unless some sort of unbelievable explanation is believed.

Odds of someone's ticket winning the lotto is about 1 in 4,000,000. So if they do win and even have some unbelievable explanation, they must have cheated the system somehow, even if you cant prove it. Cant argue with the maths.

G1032

Plentyofice wrote: »

How about "NOT" showing the prizes for winning. It's a guaranteed winner as these boys might think they're playing for big prizes and when they win they should each receive and free glass of house wine as first prize with 2nd receiving 50" TV's

Thats essentially what they did in this instance.

Benny Cake

Why not pen a letter to their club(s)?, if you document this it will be harder for their antics to be ignored....

stockdam

I hardly play in competitions now so it doesn't concern me at all.

Some people here appear to be calling people cheats without any real evidence.

In a society I used to play in we had a guy who won several of the big outings but never once did I suspect him of cheating. When I played with him he would be very erratic and would ding a lot of holes - he would often get about 20 points for 18 holes. Occasionally it came together and he would score 45 pints and we'd cut him. But he certainly wasn't trying to deceive anyone.

But I guess there are guys who play just to win the big prizes. I wouldn't suggest that they cheat but maybe they practice their short game every evening for a month before a big event. There used to be big team events on TV and it was obvious that something strange was happening.............high handicappers were getting up and down often and rarely three putted. They were still erratic off the tee and their swings were awful. However when they were in play they often scored 4 points.

So the way to big scores is to have one very steady low player who will score on every hole (usually 2 points). The other players should be erratic but be very good around the greens. If things slot into place then 2 of the other 3 will often get 3 or 4 points.

Although it's very unlikely, a 2 player team can be 18 under net even though both play to par (They wouldn't be playing off their full handicaps though as a team).

Ok so I'm talking hypothetically.

Dublin Spur

gary29428 wrote: »

It's bulls**t to constantly put in bad scores to boost your h'cap only to come out in these Am-Am's and shot the lights and pick up what are in most cases very valuable prices. QUOTE]



It's more than bull****, it's cheating.

Players who "manage" their handicaps are cheating

G1032

D_Red_Army wrote: »

Why not pen a letter to their club(s)?, if you document this it will be harder for their antics to be ignored....

Their club knows, but what can they do?
You can't cut somebody for shooting 27 points.
They win AM AM's and are cut at the end of the year accordingly. Their club still has to follow the rules itself, and can't just go around cutting people just because they feel like it.
They are abusing the system but still playing within the rules. Morally what they're doing is wrong, but until the number of 0.1's that can be 'achieved' each year is reduced to 20 then this abuse will continue and can't be stopped.

mr.mickels

gary29428 wrote: »

Was playing in an Am-Am the other week and it was won with 107pts with two to count on each hole. Was a very tuf day on a tuf course, second was 93pts. So these guys that won it have won this particular comp 3 times in 4 years. One of them got cut 2.5 by there club last year on GP and is again out to the same h'cap. Think about there score, they had 17 six pointers... there h'caps range from 17 to 25. As a low single figure golfer this gets right up my hole. It's bulls**t to constantly put in bad scores to boost your h'cap only to come out in these Am-Am's and shot the lights and pick up what are in most cases very valuable prices. This has stirred a right bit of uproar in the area. The organisers are sick to there stomacks of these gobs**ts, it's the comp that will suffer (it's for charity) as a lot of people I've spoken to will not play it again. Is there a way to exclude certain people from an Am-Am, to simply tell them they can't play....p*ss off.

when I used play regularly back in the early/mid 90's we used often have guys like that, it was common for their names to be distributed to all the regional clubs and they be refused entry into any/every open event. Does that kind of thing happen anymore?

mr.mickels

G1032 wrote: »

Their club knows, but what can they do?
You can't cut somebody for shooting 27 points.
They win AM AM's and are cut at the end of the year accordingly. Their club still has to follow the rules itself, and can't just go around cutting people just because they feel like it.

Yes you can, it is at the discretion of each club committee to cut players whom they suspect are cheating the system (or at least it used to be and still is as far as I am aware)

LuckyGent88

Dublin Spur wrote: »

gary29428 wrote: »

It's bulls**t to constantly put in bad scores to boost your h'cap only to come out in these Am-Am's and shot the lights and pick up what are in most cases very valuable prices. QUOTE]



It's more than bull****, it's cheating.

Players who "manage" their handicaps are cheating

+1. I cant see why players go out and waste money on getting .1 back every time they play. Sport is always about doing the best you possibly can and golf should be no different.

soundsham

Don't nominate the prizes till the comp is over

Saw this done years ago on a smaller level in a society outing guys were sick of this guy always being top 3 every outing....sometimes due to his inability to count and ability to always find his ball in the woods
So when he came 1st at the next outing he was handed 3 pinnacles and was told that was 1st prize today

Dr_Colossus

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I cant see why players go out and waste money on getting .1 back every time they play. Sport is always about doing the best you possibly can and golf should be no different.

Very good point, I can't either. In my club competition entries are €10 which I think is rather expensive but anyway someone looking to build their handicap 2 shots would have to pay out €200 in competition entries which would make a hell of a good prize.
As a sport with a competitive edge everyone's ambition should be to get as low a handicap as possible and thus be entitled to some bragging rights. Golfers and non golfers alike will always ask what you're playing off rather that what big prizes you've won recently. As such in the case mentioned by the OP above being able to say you're playing off 4 demands alot more respect that someone saying they're playing off 17 but winners of the big charity Am-Am.
(No disrespect to any high handicappers, I'm one myself and working hard on getting it down)

G1032

soundsham wrote: »

Don't nominate the prizes till the comp is over

Again, for the 3rd time, this is what was done in the am am the OP is talking about.

The_Kew_Tour

Never could understand it.. Jesus I would rather play of scratch or better and win nothing then playing off 18 just to win prizes.

Was one the things that annoyed me when I was younger. I remember myself and my mate played in weekend competition and he had score of 43 points which came second, but people taught we had cheated as they no happy seeing two students play together. I had 34 points not exactly cheating material. We did not cheat and I never would the worst thing was the people who complained were the people winning every week of dodgy handicaps.

death1234567

One thing, could the club look at somebody's handicap record on golfnet and exclude them if they are getting 5 or more 0.1 back in a row and then suddenly shooting a 46 pointer in a big competition? Surely that's the easiest way to stop it? Consistent 0.1 back in competitions is a massive giveaway of someone who's a bandit.

f22

We run a points system, 3 points for a win, 2 for second and 1 point for third. If you reach 6 points in anything outside singles you are liable for assessment. It's very fair and keeps the usual suspects at bay.

gary29428

A lot of good discussion here guys on the subject, however you will notice I didn't use the word "cheat" in my OP. To be a cheat you have to break the rules as there are set out. I don't believe there was a magic pencil used here. The crime as I see it is a moral one, at least until the GUI come up with a system that does not favor this type of behavior. I find it utter bull that these guys are allowed to get away this stuff, they are basically making a mockery of every other genuine golfer who adheases to the spirit of the game (ie be the best that you can be). They will be the only one's congradulating themselves, but that's OK with them, thick skin and even thicker necks built up over years of ducking and diving around the h'cap system. They didn't turn up for the prize giving, mute applause would have greeted them me thinks... To be fair to the organisers they are doing everything possible to make the event a fair and true test of golf, best team win and all that... I guess it's a case of the most imoral, small minded, thick skinned, don't give a f**k about the game team that wins these days.... I'm sure if they read this thread they would have a wee chuckle and move onto next weekends pot of gold.

fullstop

death1234567 wrote: »

Consistent 0.1 back in competitions is a massive giveaway of someone who's a bandit.

Not necessarily...I once got something like 15 .1s in a row to go from 2 to 4 handicap and I was trying very hard not to get them.

death1234567

fullstop wrote: »

Not necessarily...I once got something like 15 .1s in a row to go from 2 to 4 handicap and I was trying very hard not to get them.

Yeah but what were the chances you'd suddenly pull 40+ points out of the hat in the middle of a captains/presidents prize while you were on that run of form? :pac:
Plus I doubt many bandits play off a handicap of below 5. If you look at the evidence you can see who the bandits are, problem is you can't conclusively prove anything so you have to bring in a draconian rule similar to the one I outlined. Sad but true.

Russman

death1234567 wrote: »

Consistent 0.1 back in competitions is a massive giveaway of someone who's a bandit.

I've gotten 11 0.1s in row back this year and I'm certainly no bandit, just playing pure crap. Thats too much of a generalisation IMO.


More broadly speaking, there's too many assumptions being made about players. For sure there are some bandits around, but someone has to win the prize every week. Its almost getting to the point of "if you win somone will call you a bandit", I can see it in my own club every week, someone wins and theres a smart remark - usually from someone who has a handicap thats too low and they can't play to themselves.

Rant over

I agree in the Op's scenario there's something very dodgy alright, and team events are notorious for that exact situation, but I genuinely don't think there are that many amateurs who build handicaps AND then deliver in the big comps, thats the key. If a 15 handicapper has 20pts for 9 followed by 13pts on the back he's accused of "pulling", yet nobody says it when a low handicapper does it or when a pro has a bad back nine a la McDowell recently. If they were that good to be able to deliver to order they'd be pros
As someone stated earlier, you can spend €200 building a handicap for what ? a €30 voucher ? They're only fooling themselves.

As to what you do to police team events, its very difficult. We had a situation were guys had magic pencils, were being watched on the course by a team and when queried on their scores on the card compared to what was witnesed simply said "ohh yeah, you're right it was a 6 not a 5 there, my mistake" - totally taking the p1ss, but very difficult to call them cheats without the legal people getting involved. Plus in this case there was at least one guy who genuinely hadn't a clue what was going on, wasn't marking the card and wouldn't have an idea how he or his team were scoring, is he tarred with the same brush ? Probably. unfortulately.

Just have fewer team events, with lesser prizes and don't put the prizes out til after the event.
Play your golf, enjoy the game and don't worry about the few who are out to ruin it for everyone else.

death1234567

Russman wrote: »

I've gotten 11 0.1s in row back this year and I'm certainly no bandit, just playing pure crap. Thats too much of a generalisation IMO.

Your quoting out of context. I said "getting 5 or more 0.1 back in a row and then suddenly shooting a 46 pointer in a big competition". Notice the use of the word "and" to indicate the sentence isn't finished...:p.

Myksyk

If the basic means of 'cheating' is the dishonest accumulation of .1s then this is where you must tackle the problem and this could have been done this year to some extent if the GUI had passed the motion to limit that accumulation to 20 .1s in any given year. They didn't which is a shame, in the strong sense of that word.

By the way, it is most definitely cheating if you dishonestly accumulate .1s through care-less golf to deliberately and knowingly maintain or increase your handicap. Cheating in golf can be carried out either through the deliberate breaking or ignoring of the rules of golf ... or by the manipulation/transgression/evasion of the responsibilities assigned to the player in the handicap system on which the amateur game depends.

CONGU are quite clear in saying that the handicap system is dependent on the responsibilities they outline for the individual player i.e. to play each and every shot to the best of their ability. The bandits in the game that I have a met all have severely twisted rationales for their banditry which seem to allow them to continue, apparently feeling completely guilt-free about their cheating.

harpsman

death1234567 wrote: »

Your quoting out of context. I said "getting 5 or more 0.1 back in a row and then suddenly shooting a 46 pointer in a big competition". Notice the use of the word "and" to indicate the sentence isn't finished...:p.

Jeez-i was gonna play captains prize at weekend but now im afraid if i play well ill be accused of cheatin- ive got 5 or 6 .1s back this year.

I would have thought most golfers go long sequences of .1s in between good scores-otherwise handicaps would perpetually go down.

Corkblowin

harpsman wrote: »

Jeez-i was gonna play captains prize at weekend but now im afraid if i play well ill be accused of cheatin- ive got 5 or 6 .1s back this year.

I would have thought most golfers go long sequences of .1s in between good scores-otherwise handicaps would perpetually go down.

It would only become suspicious if the same pattern became apparent over 2 or 3 years. Naturally you'll have more days where you hit the buffer zone or get .1's back than days you're cut.

As for low handicappers, its much more likely that they would follow up a run of .1's with a good score. I'm off 5 and have had runs of poor form (in one now! ) but I know that I'll have days where my irons click and instead of having 20 ft putts for birdies I'll have 5-10 ft putts. Holing a couple of them is the difference between 36 and 41 points or more. Such a scenario is much less likely to happen regularly to a high-teens handicapper.

Its these regular occurrences by the same characters that gets on my wick, not the honest bloke off 18 who's always doing his best and hits that golden streak of form.