dr.bollocko wrote: »
Oooh jaysus. I got through 4 posts and:
"I only wish he didn't die and he continued on and suffer and suffer badly."
His funeral is tomorrow and people are actually arguing for the right to post drivel like that before his body is even in the ground?
Laminations wrote: »
Nobody is arguing for that, at least I'm not anyway. Nasty insensitive posts should be dealt with by the mods as per usual. We are arguing that if RIP threads are to continue then they should be just condolences and no political statements, positive or negative. The problem with allowing only positive is that you get hyperbolic untruths and political propaganda and revisionism. Nobody is arguing for the right to dance on a persons grave
Permabear wrote: »
This post had been deleted.
K-9 wrote: »
The point is, there were plenty of posts negative about him, "I didn't agree with his decisions" etc. and they were fine.
If somebody makes an OTT positive point on a condolence thread why the need to argue it?
Just take the fingers away from the keyboard and think, it's a condolence thread, the man has just died, we've had thousands of threads about him or discussing explaining his bad decisions, maybe I'll leave this one for a thread to say something nice about him?
Do we really need another one going through his bad decisions?
Still, we had one going through his bad decisions and his legacy if posters wanted that. I think the mods handled it well, though there seems to have been a lack of hands on deck. The thread should have been spotted quicker.
I think anybody criticising the legacy thread should also be warned in the interests of balance.
Laminations wrote: »
But it's a condolence thread. It's not the place to be making political statements all be they positive.
Again I don't think people have a problem with saying nice things about the recently deceased - personally Brian Lenihan was a nice guy and an intelligent fella, hiss family and friends are hurting, it is a loss to his supporters and hd will be missed by many. Saying nice things is different from making comments on his political career and his decisions. Again you seem to be missing the point
The legacy thread is not 'one going through his bad decisions'. It's one going through his legacy, good and bad. And people are entitled to challenge any poster in that thread (i challenged the post given as an example by Dr.Bollocko) and the mods need to enforce forum rules on nasty posts.
The condolence thread is for condolences.
The legacy thread is for debate, positive and negative evaluations.
lmaopml wrote: »
..if people wax lyrical on it - so what?
Scofflaw wrote: »
Not necessarily, because that's a line that can easily be policed. "He was a good man" is a pretty anodyne statement, and "he will be missed" is no more than the truth. The response, on the other hand, is clearly unacceptable, even to me.
a loved one close to you dies after a period of illness. Feeling sad you are browsing the internet one day and you come across a thread titled condolences or RIP and you start to read the posts by users that you've never met before offering their sympathies to the family and expressing their regret at the person's passing. Some even offer praise for the person which, even though you know it isnt maybe 100% deserved you still think is nice of them. Then a user posts that they were molested as a child by the person you cared about and a huge argument breaks out on thread with accusations and name calling and "proof" of X, Y or Z.
Who is being hurt by these comments? Not the dead person. the ones left behind are the only ones affected. its simple, refrain from posting nasty comments in a condolences/RIP thread out of common human decency. Tell the truth as you see it in a more appropriate place. If you feel so strongly that you cannot bring yourself to stem your negative opinion of the individual for the 5 minutes to takes to post a comment then the solution is simple, DONT POST.
Honestly, truth is good but there is a time and place for it. Refusing to tell an untruth is commendable, insisting on telling what you see as the painful truth no matter who the audience is or where the truth is being told is actually a selfish act as the only person getting any form of gratification is the person insisting on having their "truth" heard.
The criteria of acceptability are quite difficult to grasp, given that it seems okay to say "I for one am not sorry to see the back of him".
Sand wrote: »
If its fair enough to say "he will be missed" given its relatively true, then its equally fair enough to point out that you wont miss him?
Not nice, but equally fair.
P. Breathnach wrote: »
That seems to be sort of balance that the mods want struck:
A says "I am sorry he is dead".
B responds "Well, I'm glad he died".
There is a reason why some streets are deemed suitable only for one-way traffic.
Scofflaw wrote: »
The mod position is obviously something that requires a consensus decision. My personal view is that I agree with the basic point Laminations is making - you should not be able to use a condolences thread for a politician to make unchallenged positive statements about their political decisions.
Therefore, my personal view is that a condolences thread should - even in Politics - restrict itself to comments on a personal level. The boundary is obviously going to be very fuzzy, though - if someone says "most intelligent politician in the Dáil" they may well think of that as a comment on his personal attributes, forgetting that it's a judgement on all the other member of the Dáil, and therefore a political comment. "A very intelligent man" is acceptable - while the comment it invites "oh, yeah? then why did he..." is unacceptable.
I can appreciate, however, that those who would like to be able to make a positive statement in respect of the dead person's political career - because they genuinely believe them to have done positive things - would like to be able to do so without being barracked for it, and regard the ability to say such things without being barracked as part and parcel of offering their condolences. And that's the cultural norm, which is very strong in Ireland - to mention only the good, not the bad, for a vaguely defined period after the actual death.
So there's unlikely to be a solution that satisfies everybody.
Just like we dont allow atheists to post their objection to the existanece of God in the Christianity forum but we dont have any issue with their posting such material in the Atheist and Agnostic forum.
its more of a common decency affair and would imho fall well within the domain of the "dont be a dick" rule
1. why would a member of an organisation vehemently opposed to Mrs. Thatcher be reading a thread whose whole purpose is to offer condolences?
2. what else, other than praise and condolences would they expect to find there? Should the thread title not give it away?
3. In this hypothetical scenario, are you suggesting that any posts offering condolences would be trolling republicans and therefore shouldnt be allowed?
what of the users who are genuinely sorry to see Mrs. Thatcher pass (hey! its hypothetical!) ? Are they not entitled to post their opinion? if thats the case, then any user posting on almost any topic in politics must be trolling someone unless we can find a topic that everyone agrees on
4. Users are free to disagree but they should do so in the proper place. Trolling is posting a message in an area to get a reaction. I would consider it reasonable to assume that a thread dedicated to offering condolences to X politician or wishing that X public figure rest in peace be populate by wellwishers and supporters of that public figure, and so any post that denounces politician X would be deliberately trying to get a reaction and therefore trolling in that thread
Please remember that we are not a blog, a news feed nor an announcement forum - if you are not willing to discuss what you post, then please don't post it.
This forum is for discussion and debate, so again, we will not tolerate soapboxing
it should be accompanied by a detailed summary of its contents and arguments, and you must be prepared to discuss it.
Also, this forum is not a soap-box or an advertising medium.
This includes refraining from abuse or conduct that will deliberately upset or provoke others
I'll make this as clear as possible: A condolence/RIP thread is NOT the place for disagreements or debate. It is a thread for offering condolences on a person's passing or to extoll the virtues of the deceased. If you dont want to read nice things about a person because you feel they are untrue, then dont read the thread. If you want to post your negative opinion of the person, then you are free to do so in the proper place