Scary vestiges of the past? Have they returned in the USA?

Biggins

Scary vestiges of the past?

Is racism or something similar, seeping into southern parts of America once again - only this time by the legal back-door?
Is the jingoistic stirring of a disguised undercurrent hatred, being deliberately increased by some in Americas souther states by their latest legislation actions?
Are they going too far?

I refer to the latest laws they have passed.
Here is a few of them:

* Alabama (like Arizona apparently) has made it a crime to give an illegal immigrant a lift!
* Schools in Alabama will soon have to check if students are in the country legally
* People stopped for any reason could be arrested on suspicion of immigration violations.
* Its now a crime for landlords to knowingly rent to an illegal immigrant.
* They made it illegal to pick up labourers for work if doing so impedes traffic!

It seems being a Hispanic (or similar) in some southern states is now a further excuse to pull you over and have a cop legally go though your life totally by the roadside.

Anyone have thoughts on the matter.
Is there smatterings of the way Hitler and Germany (and other countries and their leaders) have used methods previously, to divide and conquer those that they did not like or want on their homelands?

A journal.ie write-up: http://www.thejournal.ie/alabama-makes-it-a-crime-to-give-an-illegal-immigrant-a-lift-153320-Jun2011/


...O' and if your an illegal Irish person in those States - I think it applies to you too!

Hookah

It's despicable really.

liah

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism,
by Dr. Lawrence Britt

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections – Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

That's all I really have to say.

ArtyM

Desperate times call for desperate dispicable measures.
*Apparently*

cml387

I think it's a mistake to extrapolate what goes on in Alabama to imply that this is where the US is headed as a country.

Biggins

cml387 wrote: »

I think it's a mistake to extrapolate what goes on in Alabama to imply that this is where the US is headed as a country.

Alabama/Arizona.

I didn't say the whole of the states, I just ask if some vestiges (bad vibes I'm getting) of the past have returned to some of people/leaders in the USA.
Are some going down a road that has lead to further bad situations before elsewhere?

mgmt

The USA has a immigrant problem because of bad legislation. The US constitution being the main culprit.

Some dumbasses here in Ireland introduced the same problem in 1998: "Anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship" (rough quote). Luckily we had the mechanisms to change this.

TBH it seems a fair proposal by the American states. They are dealing with the problem that is being ignored by the federal government. If a person is illegally staying in any country, they should be arrested and deported. Simple.

syklops

No, the Germans said the cucumbers weren't to blame.

Donkey Oaty

Biggins wrote: »

Is there smatterings of the way Hitler and Germany (and other countries and their leaders) have used methods previously, to divide and conquer those that they did not like or want on their homelands?

Steady on, Biggins! It's at least another Republican government away from that.

mikemac

* Alabama (like Arizona apparently) has made it a crime to give an illegal immigrant a lift!
* Schools in Alabama will soon have to check if students are in the country legally
* People stopped for any reason could be arrested on suspicion of immigration violations.
* Its now a crime for landlords to knowingly rent to an illegal immigrant.
* They made it illegal to pick up labourers for work if doing so impedes traffic!

I don't realy understand the first one. Was it give a lift........across the border?
I must be a racist as I don't see an issue with the other four. Why should a US citizen lose a place in an oversubscribed and good school to an illegal immigrant?

Alabama has an estimated 120,000 illegal immigrants, a nearly fivefold increase from a decade ago,

Alabama’s unemployment rate stood at 9.3 percent in April, the most recent figure available.

If I was a US citizen living there getting undercut by cheap labour I'd be welcoming this. Shouldn't a county look after it's own citizens first?

In addition, it requires all businesses to check the legal status of workers using a federal system called E-Verify

“It is clearly unconstitutional. It’s mean-spirited, racist, and we think a court will enjoin it,” said Mary Bauer, legal director for the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Bit of an overreaction here.
We have the same here, when starting many jobs HR photocopies your passport to show you are not from outside the EU.

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

* Alabama (like Arizona apparently) has made it a crime to give an illegal immigrant a lift!
* Schools in Alabama will soon have to check if students are in the country legally
* People stopped for any reason could be arrested on suspicion of immigration violations.
* Its now a crime for landlords to knowingly rent to an illegal immigrant.
* They made it illegal to pick up labourers for work if doing so impedes traffic!

Many of these regulations apply in European states too. Nothing particular American about them, and indeed, from what I know, America is still a far more free society for illegal immigrants than many European countries. Australia, France, the UK, and many other nations have all these laws, as well as mass internment camps for illegals, and more besides, and yet never seem to cop half the flak that America does, for far more benign laws.

Matthew23

whats wrong with those laws? arent the laws there to stop people breaking the law rather than facilitate it?

Biggins

mgmt wrote: »

...TBH it seems a fair proposal by the American states. They are dealing with the problem that is being ignored by the federal government. If a person is illegally staying in any country, they should be arrested and deported. Simple.

Your argument holds water as they say - however speaking personally for myself, there is smatterings of maybe in some of their methods, its getting scarily like immigrant cleansing that is using some methods that could turn nasty indeed.

I agree that the situation needs sorting - I just wonder about SOME of their methods.
Might it breath further open division?

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Steady on, Biggins! It's at least another Republican government away from that.

I suspect that might not be too far away!
And lord help the world if Palin is leading that charge!

Donkey Oaty

Einhard wrote: »

Australia, France, the UK, and many other nations have all these laws

They most certainly do not.

cml387

Biggins wrote: »

Alabama/Arizona.

I didn't say the whole of the states, I just ask if some vestiges (bad vibes I'm getting) of the past have returned to some of people/leaders in the USA.
Are some going down a road that has lead to further bad situations before elsewhere?

There have always been backwoodsmen in the southern states.Having an African American in the White House is probably inflaming a lot of deep seated prejudice.

Biggins

cml387 wrote: »

There have always been backwoodsmen in the southern states. Having an African American in the White House is probably inflaming a lot of deep seated prejudice.

True.
For those of that poor mentality, this is where I fear that legitimising some methods of immigrant cleansing, might give them an further poor excuse to run off with themselves.
Thats my underlying fear. Its not for me to curtail any nations desire to get some border controls right - its only a fear that some of this might be a spark that could lead to a flame in some cases and that basic human rights also in some cases are being shoved aside for the sake of American nationalism so to speak.

Biggins

liah wrote: »

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism,
by Dr. Lawrence Britt

That's all I really have to say.

Thats scary!

Donkey Oaty

Biggins wrote: »

Its not for me to curtail any nations desire to get some border controls right

Is there an "understatement of the day" button?

Einhard

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

They most certainly do not.

In Britain, Gordon Brown proposed to introduce a system whereby an employed could only accept someone from outside the settled workforce for a skilled job if they can show that no suitably qualified settled worker could fill the role. Under the test, a job vacancy must also be advertised for two weeks before a migrant can be recruited. In future the job will have to be advertised for a month. (the guardian)

That's not much different from what some states are demanding of American employers, and in the UK it applies to all immigrants, not just illegal ones.

Further, in the UK, immigrants can be held in detention for an unlimited period of time while their claims are being processed.

In France: Amongst the measures was a move to increase the time illegal immigrants can be held in detention to 45 days from 32, after which the authorities have to make a decision on whether to expel them or further investigate their request for asylum.

Under the terms of the proposed law, anyone caught employing illegal immigrants will face up to five years in prison and a maximum fine of 15,000 euros ($20,140). (France 24)

Indeed, it's actually illegal in France to aid an illegal immigrant.

In Australia, immigrants have been held in conditions resembling "hell holes" for years on end, in camps on Christmas island and in the Western desert.

All of these seem, to me, at least as coercive, and indeed moreso, than anything the Americans have brought in.

Biggins

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Is there an "understatement of the day" button?

Meow!

...But we can comment or wonder...
Thats why we are here on this forum sometimes asking questions.

cml387

In the end, all the US states are subordinate to the constitution of the USA.
Local demogogues can go so far,and make things more unpleasant for minorities,but all it takes is for someone to challenge the law to the US Supreme court.

mgmt

cml387 wrote: »

There have always been backwoodsmen in the southern states.Having an African American in the White House is probably inflaming a lot of deep seated prejudice.

Biggins wrote: »

True.
For those of that poor mentality, this is where I fear that legitimising some methods of immigrant cleansing, might give them an further poor excuse to run off with themselves.
Thats my underlying fear. Its not for me to curtail any nations desire to get some border controls right - its only a fear that some of this might be a spark that could lead to a flame in some cases and that basic human rights also in some cases are being shoved aside for the sake of American nationalism so to speak.

People sure do love to scream the race card.

The reality of the situation is that local and state police were prevented from enforcing immigration laws and instead the states had to rely on the federal authorities. The federal government did basically nothing while the problem crippled the economies of the states.

Biggins

cml387 wrote: »

In the end, all the US states are subordinate to the constitution of the USA.
Local demogogues can go so far,and make things more unpleasant for minorities but all it takes is for someone to challenge the law to the US Supreme court.

Aye and it looks that it might go all that way.

Cookie_Monster

Biggins wrote: »

Is racism or something similar, seeping into southern parts of America once again -

No, its just action against illegal immigrants, does not seem to be racist against anyone one group in particular, just illegal immigrants regardless of ethnicity.

smugchik

I am no fan of the Southern States and have always been a little suspicious that they are all secretly KKK tolerant. (which in itself makes me guilty of pre-judging them)

However, in this instance I feel that I must disagree that their new laws are racist. The new laws aren't against anyone with a hispanic background, just those who are illegal. Any of us without the correct permit would be treated the same.

Remember, it is illegal to employ illegal immigrants here too.

mgmt

cml387 wrote: »

In the end, all the US states are subordinate to the constitution of the USA.
Local demogogues can go so far,and make things more unpleasant for minorities,but all it takes is for someone to challenge the law to the US Supreme court.

10th Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

If you want facism then strip away all the rights of the local people and give it to a federal government.

Donkey Oaty

Einhard wrote: »

Stuff....stuff...

Einhard, you direct me to legislation in the UK that says:

* It is it a crime to give an illegal immigrant a lift

* It is a crime for landlords to knowingly rent to an illegal immigrant

* It is illegal to pick up labourers for work if doing so impedes traffic

...and I will then stand corrected and appologise for doubting your knowledge of the situation.

Biggins

mgmt wrote: »

People sure do love to scream the race card.

If a hundred people shout out, just sometimes a few of them are justified.

mgmt wrote: »

...The reality of the situation is that local and state police were prevented from enforcing immigration laws and instead the states had to rely on the federal authorities. The federal government did basically nothing while the problem crippled the economies of the states.

True but having studied the weakening of the American constitution of the last 10/20 years in a number of ways, its scary how bit by bit some of the methods being further legislated is allow other aspects (right to invade person home without warrant/right to stop and/or arrest without a clear cause/etc) are being advocated as the way to go just a tad too much.

Amid the studying I have done is some of this persons writing on the matter: http://www.judgenap.com/2010/books-by-judge-napolitano/
Its scary stuff indeed - and he's a judge in the states.
In particular, I recommend "A Nation Of Sheep"
Here: http://www.judgenap.com/2010/a-nation-of-sheep/

smugchik

Sorry, can't resist this.

'Mexico doesn't have an Olympic team... because anyone who can run, jump or swim is already across the border'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1353950/Top-Gears-Jeremy-Clarkson-hits-Mexican-racist-remarks.html#ixzz1Otwx1sqq

cml387

mgmt wrote: »

If you want facism then strip away all the rights of the local people and give it to a federal government.

Are you American?

I only ask because you re-inforce my point but add that fascism would entail from federal control (democratic) as opposed to State control (obviously also democratic).

Biggins

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

No, its just action against illegal immigrants, does not seem to be racist against anyone one group in particular, just illegal immigrants regardless of ethnicity.

What if it was members of a travelling community (just for example) regardless of them being English, Irish or German, etc?
* Just asking the question - NOT espousing a view one way or the other.

smugchik

Biggins wrote: »

What if it was members of a travelling community regardless of them being English, Irish or German, etc?
* Just asking the question - NOT espousing a view one way of the other.

I don't understand the question. Traveller's have birth certificates and legal rights the same as everyone else. If a Traveller decided to go to the USA illegally, he would be treated the same as any other illegal immigrant, any of us included.

Einhard

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Einhard, you direct me to legislation in the UK that says:



...and I will then stand corrected and appologise for doubting your knowledge of the situation.

I was talking about laws along broadly similar lines. I presumed that people would realise that i wasn't suggesting that the UK, and France, and Australia, have the exact same law as the state of Alabama.

mikemac

When you have over one hundred thousand illegal immigrants in Alabama and high unemployment and low wages for many US citizens then why would you not look at the issue?
The federal government failed completely to do much at all.

From the list, school places, rented accommodation and jobs are included, issues that affect any working person.

US citizens lose out to greedy employers looking for cheap labour and they must compete with immigrants for these jobs, school resources and higher rent accommodation in demand.

Alabama owes its duty to citizens, nobody else.

But I'm reading fascism and backwoodsmen in this thread

Biggins

smugchik wrote: »

...Remember, it is illegal to employ illegal immigrants here too.

Indeed but we haven't gotten to the absolute extremes of making it illegal just to give them a lift in a car!
Thats really pushing the boat!
Whats next? Making it illegal to give them food and water?

Absurdum

Biggins wrote: »

...O' and if your an illegal Irish person in those States - I think it applies to you too!

then it isn't racist

Biggins

Absurdum wrote: »

then it isn't racist

Indeed - and thats what I am wondering!

I don't have a closed mind or fully set view on some of these areas.
Thus my asking for eye opening aspects from others that might provide alternative views - and its much appreciated, from ALL sides.

Donkey Oaty

Einhard wrote: »

I was talking about laws along broadly similar lines. I presumed that people would realise that i wasn't suggesting that the UK, and France, and Australia, have the exact same law as the state of Alabama.

If you are saying, we all have immigration laws to try and address the particular needs of our societies, I agree.

But when you contribute to a thread about specific laws and say:

Australia, France, the UK, and many other nations have all these laws

...I thought you meant:

Australia, France, the UK, and many other nations have all these laws

Which they don't.

Okay. Next!

wixfjord

Biggins wrote: »

* Schools in Alabama will soon have to check if students are in the country legally
* Its now a crime for landlords to knowingly rent to an illegal immigrant.
* They made it illegal to pick up labourers for work if doing so impedes traffic!

Are these really laws really going to far?!

smugchik

Biggins wrote: »

Indeed but we haven't gotten to the absolute extremes of making it illegal just to give them a lift in a car!
Thats really pushing the boat!
Whats next? Making it illegal to give them food and water?

It should be. I know many people who are asylum seekers and refugees who are here legally while their cases are are being processed. The illegal immigrants are just making a mockery of everything the Asylum Seekers are going through.

Donkey Oaty

Biggins wrote: »

...O' and if your an illegal Irish person in those States - I think it applies to you too!

By the way Biggins, there are no illegal Irish people in the USA.

They are hard-working "undocumented" decent people, with concerned families at home.

Please try to follow the Irish media.

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

Indeed - and thats what I am wondering!

I don't have a closed mind or fully set view on some of these areas.
Thus my asking for eye opening aspects from others that might provide alternative views - and its much appreciated, from ALL sides.

I think it's a reaction to understandable anger amongst citizens at Congess' utter failure to address the problem of illegal immigration. Some of the laws are a bit harsh, but no more harsh than the ultimate sanction- deportation- and far less harsh than some of the practises used in other Western countries which do not come in for such censure. As for being racist- I don't think so. Indeed, many latinos in the US are as anti-immigrant as their white neighbours. Also, as someone pointed out, it's hardly racist when it covers illegals of all colours, creeds, ethnicities, and nationalities. I don't think immigration is necessarily a bad thing, but if there were hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants competing in Ireland for scarce jobs, I think people would demand some form of similar action.

Big Nasty

The USA's biggest problems with illegal immigrants would be in southern / border states I would imagine. There's an enormous amount of border to police and I would imagine it's very difficult / impossible to fully control, never mind drug trafficking on top of that. Policy seems like a sensible idea to me, i.e. if locals can be prosecuted for housing, employing, schooling illegals it's going to make it harder for the immigrant to make a living and less attractive to the potential immigrant to try and settle.

Biggins

Originally Posted by Biggins
* Schools in Alabama will soon have to check if students are in the country legally
* Its now a crime for landlords to knowingly rent to an illegal immigrant.
* They made it illegal to pick up labourers for work if doing so impedes traffic!

wixfjord wrote: »

Are these really laws really going to far?!

You forgot to post the others I mentioned and with those too in mind, when one takes a look at a possible wider picture, its possible to see a slightly different image/outlook.

On their own they might appear innocent laws - and they still could be too - but all used together within a single day or month, it could give reason to question the whole process and where it is going!

Absurdum

Biggins wrote: »

* Alabama (like Arizona apparently) has made it a crime to give an illegal immigrant a lift!

so it should be, aiding illegals should be a crime

* Schools in Alabama will soon have to check if students are in the country legally

I'm surprised it isn't done already - anywhere in the world

* People stopped for any reason could be arrested on suspicion of immigration violations.

can probably be arrested for many other reasons too - the key is how much this law is invoked here, it's like anti-terror laws in the UK, the police could stick you in jail for whatever time it is without charge - in practice it isn't being used here there and everywhere like the whiney human rights folk said it would

* Its now a crime for landlords to knowingly rent to an illegal immigrant.

of course it should be, what's the problem here?!

* They made it illegal to pick up labourers for work if doing so impedes traffic!

it's probably illegal in many places to impede traffic, I'd bet that has always been the case and aforementioned whiney folk are just jumping on the bandwagon

Seriously, what's the problem here? Don't be an illegal immigrant!

Einhard

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

If you are saying, we all have immigration laws to try and address the particular needs of our societies, I agree.

But when you contribute to a thread about specific laws and say:



...I thought you meant:



Which they don't.

Okay. Next!

Yeah, you're right. I should have worded it more accurately. I meant that, in other Western nations, there are broadly similar, and often times more restrictive and draconian, laws in place against illegal immigrants, and people don't get too worked up about it. I think that America is sometimes held to a double standard.

Biggins

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

By the way Biggins, there are no illegal Irish people in the USA.
They are hard-working "undocumented" decent people, with concerned families at home.
Please try to follow the Irish media.

Thats word play for the Americans to placate the Irish community over there (thus votes!), lets be honest.
My sister was illegal for a while and had to come and go through Canada (long story short) and during that time she was openly seen to be an 'illegal' by friends she made there.
She was treated then with equal respect as afforded to any naturalised American but it was never forgotten that she was an illegal - no matter what word they used instead to categorise her as.

Craebear

Germany lost WW2, fascism won - George Carlin

Teddy_Picker

liah wrote: »

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.


5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.


8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

It would certainly seem that way, as in addition to the whole debacle as regards immigration and racism, reproductive rights are being rolled back and the pro life lobby are gaining significant ground, as the so-called personhood bill has gone through in Alabama.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/10/us-abortion-alabama-idUSTRE7593I820110610

Sigh.

Numina

Matthew23 wrote: »

arent the laws there to stop people breaking the law rather than facilitate it?

What.

Donkey Oaty

Absurdum wrote: »

Seriously, what's the problem here? Don't be an illegal immigrant!

Don't give anyone a lift.