Irish Promotions Thread *Please read post 1* (*Mod Warning Post #3947)

spektorfive

Had some time off work and was excited to get this. But due to given the wrong directions on the event page we ended up at their training place. It was too late to make it to the event. Very dispositioned and pissed off.

leggo

spektorfive wrote: »

Had some time off work and was excited to get this. But due to given the wrong directions on the event page we ended up at their training place. It was too late to make it to the event. Very dispositioned and pissed off.

Too late now, but for anyone in future, if there’s any confusion just tweet me. I was there yesterday giving directions and any other info needed as it came in. No idea what happened with the Facebook, that’s not my field, though most likely it was a tagging mix up, I know myself sometimes you can click on one thing and Facebook randomly decides to tag something else. It’s a shame as the venue is right around the corner from the gym, if I’d have known with enough time I might’ve even been able to send someone around to get you!

Tallaght Saint

Martina turning out to be the mystery third member of Team OTT. Zzzzzz.

bot43

Great CCW show tonight. Pity more people don’t support them. 6 matches tonight including a battle royal. Each one delivered bigly.

Special words for Vic Viper who announced his retirement. Seen him in many great matches over the years.

Debbie Kietel and Raven Creed were both excellent. And as a side note - Creeds t shirts are class. You could wear them in real life and not be afraid will someone ask you is it a wrestling t shirt.

ThePott

Agreed CCW show was top notch, even after some setbacks it really came together.

Shame, Doug Williams couldn't make it. Although, from what I gather it was completely understandable. Hope they get him back before he retires. Mind you the Paul Tracey vs. Jordano match was brilliant, was completely stunned by how much I enjoyed it.

Can't believe Viper is retiring, I hope it was something of a swerve although certainly didn't look it.
Deathmatch was stiff as f*ck, battle royale was solid, Bedlam with Therapy as champ could be a great too.

Aside from that Debbie and Raven killed it once again, been such a great feud. Bought a Raven shirt myself lol.

Was pretty upset about the Armstrongs though

Also new champ in Girvan, would have loved Justy but think Girvan is unreal so can't complain.
I wonder when Conners is gonna show up.

All around great show, looking forward to the next

oneilla

Need to get myself to CCW this year!

How was the OTT show anyone? Didn't make it.

BeckyBloomwood

bot43 wrote: »

Great CCW show tonight. Pity more people don’t support them. 6 matches tonight including a battle royal. Each one delivered bigly.

Special words for Vic Viper who announced his retirement. Seen him in many great matches over the years.

Debbie Kietel and Raven Creed were both excellent. And as a side note - Creeds t shirts are class. You could wear them in real life and not be afraid will someone ask you is it a wrestling t shirt.

Debbie and Raven was fantastic, I legit got a bit teared up at the end.

Sirsok

Tried to get into ott show at at intermission, couldnt buy in unfortunately so wish I could tell ya!

SquidLad

oneilla wrote: »

Need to get myself to CCW this year!

How was the OTT show anyone? Didn't make it.

Unreal. Best Tivoli show I was ever at. The atmosphere was something special.

spektorfive

Didn't get to it. But they said on twitter, Tickets go on sale tomorrow for what might be the last OTT show. Colt going be there.

SquidLad

I could be wrong here but I think OTT may be greatly exaggerating how little time they have left with the Tivoli. I was talking to someone who works there who said it will take a year or two before they demolish it. Now, granted this person may have no clue what they're on about but from my own experience, coming from a family that work in construction I know these things can take absolutely forever. I'm talking years and years, especially if a local person raises a complaint which happens all the time. And with the sheer scale of the project they're undertaking I would say it's very likely they will run into problems which will push back the demolition date way back.

At the very least, assuming August and December are in The Stadium, that means they would have September, October and November to run shows in The Tivoli if they wanted to, which they don't. I think what's happening is they're deliberately trying wean the audience off The Tivoli and using the fact that it will one day be demolished as a sort of camouflage. That's understandable IMO. The Tivoli has a one-of-a-kind atmosphere but OTT has outgrown it. It's impossible to get seats there and general admission is useless to people who aren't freakishly tall like me.

oneilla

SquidLad wrote: »

I It's impossible to get seats there and general admission is useless to people who aren't freakishly tall like me..

Yeah it can suck if you don't have seats or a good spot to stand at.

OTT had tweeted last week that an October show was TBC so guess that isn't going ahead.

Tivoli did look very good on video.

SquidLad

oneilla wrote: »

Yeah it can suck if you don't have seats or a good spot to stand at.

OTT had tweeted last week that an October show was TBC so guess that isn't going ahead.

Tivoli did look very good on video.

In terms of practicality and comfort I prefer The Legendary Arena on Suir Road™ over The Tivoli. But obviously The Tivoli's eclipses it in look and atmosphere.

bot43

I’d just like to put it on record that I love Debbie Kietel

Sirsok

So with 4 Irish folks plying their trade with WWE Shemus, Finn, Becky and Damo.....

Devlin and Tucker also getting regular spots.

4 promotions in OTT, FFPW, CCW and PWU bringing in and creating some top talent.

What do you think in the next step of in the development of Irish Wrestling?

Do up and comers have to start leaving our shores for extended periods of time? Like Shawn Guinness going to Japan? Would a tv deal on RTE or TV3 work? Maybe a deal with the WWE Network? A show in 3 arena?

Whats the next step in the evolution of Irish Wrestling.

Cherry_Cola

OTT running Cork and Galway also hopefully!

leggo

I think you’re seeing it already tbh. Because of the interest in the scene OTT has brought, now you’re getting other promotions booming too. It’s operating at near-peak levels now with only marginal areas it even can grow, like you wouldn’t have imagined this all would be possible five years ago.

Rather than anything dramatic like TV deals or huge stadiums (filling the National Stadium alone multiple times a year is a huge achievement), I’d say you’re looking at less dramatic but equally significant stuff like more wrestlers being able to work at it full-time, which will have a massive knock-on effect in itself in rapidly increasing the quality of output (which will mean bigger shows for smaller companies).

Look at the quality jump you got just from having just the few names you mentioned being successful and feeding that knowledge back. Now you’ve got Martina bringing stuff back from Japan, Devlin working the absolute elite in wrestling on a weekly basis, then being able to work here regularly too and improve those coming up. Whereas 5 years ago you might’ve had 10-12 guys who could hang with elite guys, now you’ve got 20-30 and a bunch waiting in line right after them.

I could also see OTT doing stuff like Progress and touring outside of Ireland. That’s their main, realistic growth area IMO. TV would bring as much hassle as benefit for them and WWE don’t even sell out 3Arena anymore, so if they went for them it’d be a stretch and could cause damage as much as anything where it wouldn’t be necessary. So them going worldwide (then maybe doing 6-8 Stadium shows a year) and other promotions growing to run shows along the same size as their Tivoli events would be best case scenario I’d say.

Sirsok

Thats true but in the same vein that you couldnt imagine this been possible 5 years ago, what could happen in the next five years. I was reading back over the earliest pro wrestling threads here and they were discssing the IWW supershow with Zandig and Doug Williams in 2002, and how awesome it must of felt to be a part of that. IWW did push on with a tv deal, bruiser had a tv3 documentary, Shemus went to the big time, big imports coming over, then it seemed to implode somewhat. Not suggesting that what will happen, just wondering what the next feasible step is.

As you said regular work for folks is a huge achievement Debbie Keitel worked Friday, Saturday and Sunday for 3 different promotions, as did the More then Hype guys, thats unbelievable, just hope they can get to a stage where they can make their living from it, hence why I mentioned TV and Supershows!

Came across some photos of a young Pete Dunne wrestling for DCW about 8 years ago!!!

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

I think you’re seeing it already tbh. Because of the interest in the scene OTT has brought, now you’re getting other promotions booming too. It’s operating at near-peak levels now with only marginal areas it even can grow, like you wouldn’t have imagined this all would be possible five years ago.

Rather than anything dramatic like TV deals or huge stadiums (filling the National Stadium alone multiple times a year is a huge achievement), I’d say you’re looking at less dramatic but equally significant stuff like more wrestlers being able to work at it full-time, which will have a massive knock-on effect in itself in rapidly increasing the quality of output (which will mean bigger shows for smaller companies).

Look at the quality jump you got just from having just the few names you mentioned being successful and feeding that knowledge back. Now you’ve got Martina bringing stuff back from Japan, Devlin working the absolute elite in wrestling on a weekly basis, then being able to work here regularly too and improve those coming up. Whereas 5 years ago you might’ve had 10-12 guys who could hang with elite guys, now you’ve got 20-30 and a bunch waiting in line right after them.

I could also see OTT doing stuff like Progress and touring outside of Ireland. That’s their main, realistic growth area IMO. TV would bring as much hassle as benefit for them and WWE don’t even sell out 3Arena anymore, so if they went for them it’d be a stretch and could cause damage as much as anything where it wouldn’t be necessary. So them going worldwide (then maybe doing 6-8 Stadium shows a year) and other promotions growing to run shows along the same size as their Tivoli events would be best case scenario I’d say.

Yeah, I agree with all this. I don't think TV is something we should be hoping for. They, like most indie companies don't have the infrastructure to deliver a good weekly TV show. Most likely it would give them an initial jolt of exposure and buzz before burning out themselves and their product.

leggo

Like if they put all their focus towards it, I'd absolutely believe they could put out a quality TV show. They have the talent and team there to do so. But at what cost? For a start they'd have to run every taping in the stadium, the production etc budget would have to be huge (consider to get an audience you're now appealing to an audience who see anything less than WWE as 'cheap' when it's anything but, and they don't care about the nuances and how hard it is to get to that stage). There's obvious upside too but it's not a given by any means that that upside will bare out and it'd also take enormous work to actually do that on top of having to fill the stadium regularly. It'd just be a step too far IMO and harm them on the back end. Irish Whip learned that the hard way and they'd be crazy not to learn from that (and I think they have, what they're doing right now building through live + VOD + merch is dead on the money). Really all it'd be for is vanity purposes, it wouldn't be a good business move, and I think they're quite switched on there business-wise.

Five years from now, realistically I see us having 4-5 people on the level of Balor/Becky as proper superstars on a world level, be it in WWE or Japan or wherever. Business itself over here will ebb and flow over time, appetites will change as well as what people will actually enjoy and how they'll enjoy it (people didn't really care for live local wrestling a while back whereas now it's THE thing), companies will adjust to fit that demand. It's impossible to predict even a year from now, but that we'll have several more talents competing on a world level is the one thing I feel fully safe saying.

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

Like if they put all their focus towards it, I'd absolutely believe they could put out a quality TV show. But at what cost? For a start they'd have to run every taping in the stadium, the production etc budget would have to be huge (consider to get an audience you're now appealing to an audience who see anything less than WWE as 'cheap' when it's anything but, and they don't care about the nuances and how hard it is to get to that stage). There's obvious upside too but it's not a given by any means that that upside will bare out and it'd also take enormous work to actually do that on top of having to fill the stadium regularly. It'd just be a step too far IMO and harm them on the back end. Irish Whip learned that the hard way and they'd be crazy not to learn from that (and I think they have, what they're doing right now building through live + VOD + merch is dead on the money). Really all it'd be for is vanity purposes, it wouldn't be a good business move, and I think they're quite switched on there business-wise.

Five years from now, realistically I see us having 4-5 people on the level of Balor/Becky as proper superstars on a world level, be it in WWE or Japan or wherever. Business itself over here will ebb and flow over time, appetites will change as well as what people will actually enjoy and how they'll enjoy it (people didn't really care for live local wrestling a while back whereas now it's THE thing), companies will adjust to fit that demand. It's impossible to predict even a year from now, but that we'll have several more talents competing on a world level is the one thing I feel fully safe saying.

Well, hypothetically if they were going to do a TV show my guess is that they wouldn't being doing tapings in the stadium. It would be absolute folly to attempt to match WWE's production values. And I feel that just about everyone else in wrestling has learned that by now. It would probably be shot in the Tivoli or some city venue and I'd say they'd lean heavily into the cheeky, punk rock vibe of OTT. The big indy promoters these days like Cabray and Jim Smallman definitely aren't idiots. They know better than to have their products in anyway comparable to WWE. That's probably why they've been successful. So I genuinely don't believe the problem would be them looking like a cheap WWE knockoff.

The problem, as I see it, would simply be resources. Doing a monthly taping would kill them. It would massively dilute the product, they'd blow through all their big matches in a few months... And that's even assuming they'd have the money and manpower to do it which they probably don't. There's only two other options then. Shoot the TV before the main shows or parcel the shows themselves into TV episodes. And both of those would each come with their own problems which I'm sure you can imagine.

leggo

What you've got to consider is that not enough people know indie wrestling to fill out a TV audience (2,000 people is class for an indie promotion to fill out the stadium, but it's not an audience RTE or TV3 would blink at).

So to build said audience, you have to appeal to the 'wrestling das' as I call them, the people who bring their kids to see WWE in 3Arena and kind of like it but don't fully understand. They watched World of Sport back in the day and Hulk Hogan in the 80's and retain a passing interest now because their kids are into it and they kinda like 1-2 of the guys. They don't care if it's edgy or punk rock, if they saw the Tivoli they'd think it was cheap. You don't get to sell it to them, you don't get a second chance, they see a wrestler coming out of the Tiv entrance way in a pub and they're like "ew, cringe, Irish people trying to do American things", switch the channel and you never get them back. It's not fair but these people aren't thinking of fairness or of giving small businesses a chance. They're thinking "I've had a hard day in work and want to chill out and watch something decent on TV before bed."

Whereas if you show them the production in the Stadium, guys working in peak physical shape with fully formed characters and charisma, THEN you tell them it's an Irish show, they're like "Okay I'm listening..." Then and only then can you start converting them into fans. You've got to connect them with 1-2 of the characters enough in that short window to then make it their business to tune back in next week, and have to spend a ****load on marketing to remind them it's on because 7 days is a long time and people don't generally go straight to Facebook or Twitter to follow the accounts of something they fall onto for 5 minutes on TV. Plus they wouldn't get a prime time slot because wrestling, so you're looking at getting these muggles to tune in at a time when they mightn't even normally be even watching TV.

You get past all of this the VOD route because the people going that route are looking for wrestling and interested in your product already, so they don't mind lower* production values, in fact they're kind of into it. That's why Progress and OTT are where they are. They're smart because they're avoiding TV and not lured in by the vanity of it all. If you're big enough to work on TV, TV will come to you and you won't need to seek it out. If that happens, then and only then should they look at it.

*And I say lower, but the production values these companies have are absolutely fantastic for companies their size and seriously expensive to invest in, with them often only getting that quality because they've got talented fans who'll work on it for cheap and help them out because they want to be involved.

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

What you've got to consider is that not enough people know indie wrestling to fill out a TV audience (2,000 people is class for an indie promotion to fill out the stadium, but it's not an audience RTE or TV3 would blink at).

So to build said audience, you have to appeal to the 'wrestling das' as I call them, the people who bring their kids to see WWE in 3Arena and kind of like it but don't fully understand. They watched World of Sport back in the day and Hulk Hogan in the 80's and retain a passing interest now because their kids are into it and they kinda like 1-2 of the guys. They don't care if it's edgy or punk rock, if they saw the Tivoli they'd think it was cheap. You don't get to sell it to them, you don't get a second chance, they see a wrestler coming out of the Tiv entrance way in a pub and they're like "ew, cringe, Irish people trying to do American things", switch the channel and you never get them back. It's not fair but these people aren't thinking of fairness or of giving small businesses a chance. They're thinking "I've had a hard day in work and want to chill out and watch something decent on TV before bed."

Whereas if you show them the production in the Stadium, guys working in peak physical shape with fully formed characters and charisma, THEN you tell them it's an Irish show, they're like "Okay I'm listening..." Then and only then can you start converting them into fans. You've got to connect them with 1-2 of the characters enough in that short window to then make it their business to tune back in next week, and have to spend a ****load on marketing to remind them it's on because 7 days is a long time and people don't generally go straight to Facebook or Twitter to follow the accounts of something they fall onto for 5 minutes on TV. Plus they wouldn't get a prime time slot because wrestling, so you're looking at getting these muggles to tune in at a time when they mightn't even normally be even watching TV.

You get past all of this the VOD route because the people going that route are looking for wrestling and interested in your product already, so they don't mind lower* production values, in fact they're kind of into it. That's why Progress and OTT are where they are.

*And I say lower, but the production values these companies have are absolutely fantastic for companies their size and seriously expensive to invest in, with them often only getting that quality because they've got talented fans who'll work on it for cheap and help them out because they want to be involved.

If this was 5 or 10 years ago, I'd agree with you. But I'm convinced that the wrestling zeitgeist has changed and that production values mean less than they ever have. That's not to say they don't mean anything, they absolutely do but they're not a deal breaker anymore. I mean why else would Progress, OTT, ICW, WXW etc be having the success that they are if people aren't hell bent on seeing a WWE scale production anymore? And this is true of mainstream media as well. Think about all the YouTube millionares out there who have been ****ing intergalactically successful putting out weekly shows that are made for basically no money.

I work in film and media (primarily low budget stuff) and this is a problem I face all the time. How do you match Hollywood's production values? You can't. So instead of taking a step forward and trying to make your stuff look big budget, you take a step to the side and do something equally good but different. This is why I say film in The Tivoli. It already looks great on camera (and presumably would look even better with a professional TV setup). People, by and large, don't care as much about things looking 'cheap'. The Tivoli could look as good on TV as WWE but in a different way.

And I'm laughing now because I say all this still of the opinion that an OTT TV show would be a bad idea.

Omackeral

Dont think OTT need a weekly tv show by any means but Jesus one hard cam would be better than the multiple zoom-and-cut-and-shake stuff the WWE are mad about for some be reason.

leggo

SquidLad wrote: »

If this was 5 or 10 years ago, I'd agree with you. But I'm convinced that the wrestling zeitgeist has changed and that production values mean less than they ever have. That's not to say they don't mean anything, they absolutely do but they're not a deal breaker anymore. I mean why else would Progress, OTT, ICW, WXW etc be having the success that they are if people aren't hell bent on seeing a WWE scale production anymore? And this is true of mainstream media as well. Think about all the YouTube millionare out there who have been ****ing intergalactically successful putting out weekly shows that are made for basically no money.

I work in film and media (primarily low budget stuff) and this is a problem I face all the time. How do you match Hollywood's production values? You can't. So instead of taking a step forward and trying to make your stuff look big budget, you take a step to the side and do something equally as good but different. This is why I say film in The Tivoli. It already looks great on camera (and presumably would look even better with a professional TV setup). People, by and large, don't care as much about things looking 'cheap'. The Tivoli could look as good on TV as WWE but in a different way.

And I'm laughing now because I say all this still of the opinion that an OTT TV show would be a bad idea.

Same, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless (and helping me procrastinate wonderfully)!

See what you're touching at there with YouTube etc is dead on and I actually agree with. But the consequence is that TV in and of itself is...I'll stop short of saying dying because I don't think it is, but it's bleeding and something needs to be done about that fast. The old tropes are still true of TV productions, but people are also flocking elsewhere to watch stuff. So they don't mind watching a cheaply made thing on YouTube...but how often have we seen YouTube 'stars' get their own vehicle then it's absolutely cringeworthy on TV because it doesn't translate? That's why I feel VOD is the perfect middleman. It gives them money for the same amount of work they'd be putting in anyway to allow them to gradually improve things without any of the risk or stress involved in having to produce for TV.

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

Same, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless (and helping me procrastinate wonderfully)!

See what you're touching at there with YouTube etc is dead on and I actually agree with. But the consequence is that TV in and of itself is...I'll stop short of saying dying because I don't think it is, but it's bleeding and something needs to be done about that fast. The old tropes are still true of TV productions, but people are also flocking elsewhere to watch stuff. So they don't mind watching a cheaply made thing on YouTube...but how often have we seen YouTube 'stars' get their own vehicle then it's absolutely cringeworthy on TV because it doesn't translate? That's why I feel VOD is the perfect middleman. It gives them money for the same amount of work they'd be putting in anyway to allow them to gradually improve things without any of the risk or stress involved in having to produce for TV.

You're right about TV trying to translate internet culture and it coming out absolute bollocks. But I'm still positive that 'cool and unique' is the way to go over 'big and expensive'. But yeah, TV is in this horrible 'middle position' between Cinema and the Internet where it can't match the former in production values and can't match the latter in originality. Just another reason why I think at TV show for OTT is a money looser and a waste of time.

noisenotmusic

SquidLad wrote: »

I could be wrong here but I think OTT may be greatly exaggerating how little time they have left with the Tivoli. I was talking to someone who works there who said it will take a year or two before they demolish it. Now, granted this person may have no clue what they're on about but from my own experience, coming from a family that work in construction I know these things can take absolutely forever. I'm talking years and years, especially if a local person raises a complaint which happens all the time. And with the sheer scale of the project they're undertaking I would say it's very likely they will run into problems which will push back the demolition date way back.

At the very least, assuming August and December are in The Stadium, that means they would have September, October and November to run shows in The Tivoli if they wanted to, which they don't. I think what's happening is they're deliberately trying wean the audience off The Tivoli and using the fact that it will one day be demolished as a sort of camouflage. That's understandable IMO. The Tivoli has a one-of-a-kind atmosphere but OTT has outgrown it. It's impossible to get seats there and general admission is useless to people who aren't freakishly tall like me.

For what it's worth, the Tivoli was sold and planned for demolition nearly two years ago now at this point. OTT were saying at the time that they'd be leaving but the whole place only got a reprieve as the developer ran into planning issues (incredibly the graffiti out the back must be preserved) so the whole thing could run longer.

It does seem weird that the Tivoli seems to have a new lease of life in the last 6 months/year with The XX playing there etc but the developer is pressing on. The last gigs I see booked for there is September so I'd imagine OTT will have their final show there around then too. I'd imagine the place will be swiftly knocked after that.

noisenotmusic

Actually they're taking bookings for the Christmas Panto already so maybe it'll be later? There's no gigs in the club venue downstairs beyond September.

Sirsok

Just thinking of how ICW are able to advance their storylines with their fight club show, just would be great if OTT had something similar. Eventually then get to the stage ICW are at, selling out massive arenas, breaking british wrestling records. The documentry on ICW was how I discovered ICW and then subsequently other British talent.

Would love irish OTT guys to be consistently booked in the UK like they are here. Martina and Devlin have acheived that, but Kings of the north need to be seen by everyone. As do More Then Hype!

SquidLad

Sirsok wrote: »

Just thinking of how ICW are able to advance their storylines with their fight club show, just would be great if OTT had something similar. Eventually then get to the stage ICW are at, selling out massive arenas, breaking british wrestling records. The documentry on ICW was how I discovered ICW and then subsequently other British talent.

Would love irish OTT guys to be consistently booked in the UK like they are here. Martina and Devlin have acheived that, but Kings of the north need to be seen by everyone. As do More Then Hype!

Oh... I dunno about that. I stopped watching Fight Club because quite simply, I thought it was crap. Dead crowd, dead matches, way less fans in attendance then there would be for a regular show. And maybe I'm wrong but I just do not believe OTT could handle a main show, a contenders show, potentially a Belfast show and an internet show taping all in one month. I just feel that something along the way would be getting short changed.

And as I mentioned a few posts back, they could parcel up the regular shows and present them as one hour episodes but I think that would be an even worse idea. Smash started doing that and that's what led me to cancelling my Smash on Demand subscription. I wanted to see the full shows soon after they happened. I didn't want to watch them bit by bit over the course of a month.