Why have the roads gotten so atrocious?

Dannyboy83

Have the councils gone on strike or something?

I actually genuinely would like to know what is going on.

A few years ago, they could fix all the roads.
Now, absolutely nothing is being fixed, but we pay more road tax and fuel duty than ever before!?

cm2000

A lot of its the weather during the winter to be fair

Dannyboy83

cm2000 wrote: »

A lot of its the weather during the winter to be fair

But the winter was 6 months ago....

If you had seen what happened in Cork when the Queen came to visit, it looks to me like the guys in the council just can be fcuking bothered to lift a finger.

RichardAnd

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Have the councils gone on strike or something?

I actually genuinely would like to know what is going on.

A few years ago, they could fix all the roads.
Now, absolutely nothing is being fixed, but we pay more road tax and fuel duty than ever before!?

No taxes in Ireland are ring fenced to be spent in relation to how they are raised. By this I mean that car tax (or whatever it's called) and fuel tax are not spent on roads directly but rather, they go into the same pot from which everything else comes.

As to why roads have gotten worse, well that's easy to figure out. Road maintenance has been cut just like everything else.

Dannyboy83

I'm aware of the ringfencing issue.
But it seems not a cent is being spent on road maintenance in South Munster (I I can't speak for the rest of the country).

They should reduce motor tax, fuel duty and increase whatever other tax is relevant.
Otherwise, it's theft.

Dannyboy83

How do they deal with this in the UK?
The roads in the UK are still in excellent condition and the UK have made real cuts in comparison to us.

What are our shower of gangsters doing differently?

RichardAnd

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm aware of the ringfencing issue.
But it seems not a cent is being spent on road maintenance in South Munster (I I can't speak for the rest of the country).

They should reduce motor tax, fuel duty and increase whatever other tax is relevant.
Otherwise, it's theft.

They should but they won't. Fuel tax is far, far too high but I wouldn't mind paying road tax if it was actually used to fix roads and not p!ssed up a wall.

Dannyboy83

Where can I make a complaint to?

I come on boards.ie and moan about this every 6 months.
I haven't officially complained to anyone tho, because I don't know who to complain to.

Where I should I direct my pent up barrage of abuse?

I would love to see a 'Coordinated Complaining Campaign' on boards.ie
Mightn't achieve anything, but would be good to put a little fire under their asses.

Dannyboy83

Looks like our joke of a public service is collapsing in on top of itself:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/recession-blamed-as-complaints-soar-16009425.html

reland's public services watchdog has blamed the recession for a massive hike in complaints against civil servants and the health service.
Emily O'Reilly, the Ombudsman, revealed a 30% jump in the number of people contacting her office last year - notching up a record 10-year high in grievances.



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/recession-blamed-as-complaints-soar-16009425.html#ixzz1OitetTZC

Vizzy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Looks like our joke of a public service is collapsing in on top of itself:

She also said that such an increase was to be expected in a recession.

Dannyboy83

Vizzy wrote: »

She also said that such an increase was to be expected in a recession.

Yep.
Normally most people have little to no interaction with the public services, as happened here during the Celtic Pyramid.

In a depression, people will come to depend on them tho.

If the public service is a broken mess - it will be noticed fairly quickly, and people will complain.

Son Of A Vidic

OP - we can't be putting money into potholes, sure we have to pump it into the banks instead.

thebman

Well actually we have to pay wages and welfare too so lets stay objective, not just banks in debt after all and in fact they should (for the love of god) be finished with pumping money into banks at this stage.

Roads are ok enough in my area but the fact that money collected for this purpose does not go into this area is annoying to say the least.

Son Of A Vidic

thebman wrote: »

Well actually we have to pay wages and welfare too so lets stay objective.

Well that's kind of stating the obvious now isn't it. The fact remains that banking bailouts are not a normal part of yearly expenditure and would not normally be budgeted for. So because of this we have been cut to the bone on all fronts, the roads are usually amongst the first to suffer. I drive over 55,000KM on Business journeys throughout the year and I can see an obvious deterioration in the roads since 2009.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irishh_bob

the roads in rural ireland are indeed atrocious at the moment , its quite obvious whats happening , funds have been cut yet no staff ( thank you croke park ) have been let go so the entire roads budget is spent on wages

spank_inferno

You are pretty much spot on.

The road budget has indeed been cut.
However as most of any public service budget is pay & renumeration .
The only money left is for the actual "project" eg: Plant/materials etc.

That budget has been cut so there are less projects being undertaken.

Of course the workers who could/should be working on these projects are left with nothing to do, but cant be made redundant or have their pay reduced.


Net result. We get a whole lot less public service for a marginal reduction in the total cost.

Thats why the cuts seem so excessive.
When only 20% of the budget is able to be considered for cuts (pay & pensions being excempt), the level of projects being cut are disproportionate to the small savings made

The same logic is in place in education: ie: Kids wouldn't need to be in pre-fabs if the vast majority of the budget didnt have to go on pay/pensions

Brussels Sprout

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm aware of the ringfencing issue.
But it seems not a cent is being spent on road maintenance in South Munster (I I can't speak for the rest of the country).

They should reduce motor tax, fuel duty and increase whatever other tax is relevant.
Otherwise, it's theft.

One of my friends is a civil engineer with a local county council in south Munster. He is responsible for the roads in his area (as well as the water and sewage lines and plants). I've asked him about this issue and he said that they have been told that effectively there is no more money.

To fix a road properly takes a lot of capital. However the same road can be patched up badly for a fraction of the cost. Given the limited budget the patch job is chosen almost every time. However the manpower is also limited. My friend is responsible for four road crews of 3 or so men each. Between them they have to cover several thousand km of roads most of which are in various states of disrepair.

Things are probably only going to get worse. If you have a politician who has the choice for either cutting welfare, cutting the wages of public sector workers or cutting capital expenditure then for them, politically, it's a no brainer.

dan_d

As spanko says - councils are getting less money. But their wage bills have not decreased in proportion to that. Therefore more of the smaller amount of money is being swallowed up by paying their staff their wages, leaving less and less money to invest in the actual works that need doing.

I looked at a job recently with DCC. A "temporary" 4 year contract for 2 engineers, with 2 years experience. Pay started at about 45k and topped out at 69k, depending on experience. I'm here, with 5 years experience in that field, and would be lucky (and happy!) to get a job paying 30k, at most, with a private company. Needless to say I (and every engineer in the country) applied. But as with all those things, none of us had any luck - most those jobs have people in mind for them prior to being advertised. The whole thing is completely out of whack.

I would argue that to fix a road properly takes capital too. Most councils contract it out to a company. Most of whom are operating at hugely lower costs these days, and will probably carry out the work for far less than what they previously would have. The new Gov form of contract also helps this. (fixed price). While there is less money, there are more people out there who would do the work for less. I don't think it's an exact balance, but I'm not sure there's an excuse for letting all the roads go to crap either. Works could be carried out on the worst of them, at the very least.

As for who to complain to - go to your local county council site, find the email address for the roads section and write a strongly worded email. I did a couple of months ago.6-8weeks (and much bouncing between depts) later, I was informed that the work I complained about was starting the following week. It did, and was done by a private contractor, who had the whole thing finished in 2 days. After months of endless visits, patching and bitty repairing by council workers, it took a contractor 2 days to do a decent job and it won't have to be redone any time soon, regardless of the winter weather (I have some knowledge of the materials used).

ednwireland

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

How do they deal with this in the UK?
The roads in the UK are still in excellent condition and the UK have made real cuts in comparison to us.

What are our shower of gangsters doing differently?

they dont, the roads in the uk are in a terrible condition (certainly driving round yorkshire they are) same problem as everywhere bad winters and budgets cut

Nijmegen

What is it about 'austerity' people don't get?

The overall Environment and Local Government budget is taking a hit of 27 per cent from almost €2.2 billion in 2010 to just under €1.6 billion. The largest cuts are to investment in infrastructure with the capital budget cut by more than half a billion to just over €1 billion.

Via the Irish Times

BluntGuy

Cuts to the capital budget have been made to make the books look nicer, and avoid cutting current expenditure. This is the result.

I think there's a thread in Infrastructure where someone explained how there has been a deliberate underspend on roads. I shall try and find it.

Dannyboy83

Nijmegen wrote: »

What is it about 'austerity' people don't get?



Via the Irish Times

I get austerity - but people have said Morgan Kelly's 'great reset' button will cause catastrophe - when that is essentially what has happened in Cork anyway, DonegalFella and IrishBob said it's happening in their parts of the country too.

There are potholes which have been growing around Cork since the Flood in 2009. Soon we are going to have to start tagging our potholes like they tag wild geese FFS.

Fine, A lot of cuts to the budget, I accept that, but they've haven't been cut to 0. So why is 0 being put back in?

The council simply aren't doing their jobs.
They should be stripped of the money and the role.
Subcontract to a different company.

Dannyboy83

BluntGuy wrote: »

I think there's a thread in Infrastructure where someone explained how there has been a deliberate underspend on roads. I shall try and find it.

I would appreciate that, Thank you

Dannyboy83

dan_d wrote: »

As for who to complain to - go to your local county council site, find the email address for the roads section and write a strongly worded email. I did a couple of months ago.6-8weeks (and much bouncing between depts) later, I was informed that the work I complained about was starting the following week. It did, and was done by a private contractor, who had the whole thing finished in 2 days. After months of endless visits, patching and bitty repairing by council workers, it took a contractor 2 days to do a decent job and it won't have to be redone any time soon, regardless of the winter weather (I have some knowledge of the materials used).

Thanks
This must be it:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Services/Services%20A-Z/Roads

I might try and see if I can get a few people to complain with me.

irishh_bob

ednwireland wrote: »

they dont, the roads in the uk are in a terrible condition (certainly driving round yorkshire they are) same problem as everywhere bad winters and budgets cut

i drove around quite a bit of cumbria last september and the roads were fine , wasnt too far from yorkshire alot of the time

charlemont

I reckon all the money available is been kept for National roads , So the Regional roads wont be getting anything bar some potholes being filled.

Iv noticed the N24 got some sections fixed up over the last year.

later12

Well it is not the same everywhere. My folks live in a four mile long cul-de-sac laneway deep in the Tipperary countryside, slightly over three miles of which is a public laneway, the last mile is their property.

They are a semi-retired couple in their 60s who might use the road twice a day. Also in the road/lane is another retired couple in their 80s, and a bachelor farmer with no transport. About 80% of the land surrounding the laneway belongs to the former two families, and is all under barley and potatoes, therefore all agricultural traffic is heavy in nature.

And yet, to the bemusement of my parents, the whole 3.2 mile public length of the laneway was resurfaced unnecessarily last Summer. This amounted to, by my count, about 20,000 square metres of tar and chips for 5 pensioners who between them own three cars. I say bemusement because they had about three years previously spent a large amount of their own money resurfacing most of the road, and patching up the rest. This expense by the local council was inexplicable, though I presume it was pushed for by someone.

Is that an efficient use of money? It seems that for 5 OAPs with a good number of local elections left in them, local councillors thought it was worth it.

thebman

later10 wrote: »

Well it is not the same everywhere. My folks live in a four mile long cul-de-sac laneway deep in the Tipperary countryside, slightly over three miles of which is a public laneway, the last mile is their property.

They are a semi-retired couple in their 60s who might use the road twice a day. Also in the road/lane is another retired couple in their 80s, and a bachelor farmer with no transport. About 80% of the land surrounding the laneway belongs to the former two families, and is all under barley and potatoes, therefore all agricultural traffic is heavy in nature.

And yet, to the bemusement of my parents, the whole 3.2 mile public length of the laneway was resurfaced unnecessarily last Summer. This amounted to, by my count, about 20,000 square metres of tar and chips for 5 pensioners who between them own three cars. I say bemusement because they had about three years previously spent a large amount of their own money resurfacing most of the road, and patching up the rest. This expense by the local council was inexplicable, though I presume it was pushed for by someone.

Is that an efficient use of money? It seems that for 5 OAPs with a good number of local elections left in them, local councillors thought it was worth it.

That highlights the stupidity of our political system TBH.

The one many elected FG to change.

Nijmegen

I would point out that the local councilors probably didn't have much to do with the decision, unless there was a push for it. Most executive decision making is done by the county manager (or equivalent).

Same inefficiency, just a different source.

jakdelad

spank_inferno wrote: »

You are pretty much spot on.

The road budget has indeed been cut.
However as most of any public service budget is pay & renumeration .
The only money left is for the actual "project" eg: Plant/materials etc.

That budget has been cut so there are less projects being undertaken.

Of course the workers who could/should be working on these projects are left with nothing to do, but cant be made redundant or have their pay reduced.


Net result. We get a whole lot less public service for a marginal reduction in the total cost.

Thats why the cuts seem so excessive.
When only 20% of the budget is able to be considered for cuts (pay & pensions being excempt), the level of projects being cut are disproportionate to the small savings made

The same logic is in place in education: ie: Kids wouldn't need to be in pre-fabs if the vast majority of the budget didnt have to go on pay/pensions

the reasons the roads are not repaired as quickly is down to resources
in case you hadent noticed we had 2 severe winters down to minus 18 and below
result all the roads burst open.......
and the local authority guys have taken severe paycuts...
of course if you hadent been voting for fainna fail all your life
things might be a bit better
thats who you point the finger at ,,, they were the party that left the country in the sh1te
i think the recent election would verify that.......

HivemindXX

I was pretty sure I could find some UK based message boards full of people complaining about how terrible the roads are over there and this is the first thing I found.

http://www.potholes.co.uk/



Not was I was looking for but still interesting. Some 'facts' from the site

• [potholes] cost British motorists £2.8B a year
• Road maintenance in England and Wales is underfunded by 50% (£1B)
• At current maintenance levels roads in England are resurfaced once every 65 years and in Wales once every 81 years.

Now since this site appears to be designed to help people claim compensation for pothole damage, including a suspiciously handy locator map to allow people to find potholes they can claim for avoid potholes I'm a bit dubious about the information there. However I still think it's interesting that such a site exists and it makes me think that the UK roads are not in such good condition as some posters here seem to think.

irishh_bob

later10 wrote: »

Well it is not the same everywhere. My folks live in a four mile long cul-de-sac laneway deep in the Tipperary countryside, slightly over three miles of which is a public laneway, the last mile is their property.

They are a semi-retired couple in their 60s who might use the road twice a day. Also in the road/lane is another retired couple in their 80s, and a bachelor farmer with no transport. About 80% of the land surrounding the laneway belongs to the former two families, and is all under barley and potatoes, therefore all agricultural traffic is heavy in nature.

And yet, to the bemusement of my parents, the whole 3.2 mile public length of the laneway was resurfaced unnecessarily last Summer. This amounted to, by my count, about 20,000 square metres of tar and chips for 5 pensioners who between them own three cars. I say bemusement because they had about three years previously spent a large amount of their own money resurfacing most of the road, and patching up the rest. This expense by the local council was inexplicable, though I presume it was pushed for by someone.

Is that an efficient use of money? It seems that for 5 OAPs with a good number of local elections left in them, local councillors thought it was worth it.

when pensioners shout jump in this country , politicans shout how high , a neighbour of mine is a relativley wealthy widow who along with whatever entitlements she gets , rents out a farm of land , she is having her entire house re - roofed right now for nothing , shes a staunch FF woman and applied for this scheme a while before the previous goverment stepped down

MadsL

Roads budget spent by the NRA in total denial of the need for roads (falling traffic figures)
Little investment in Rail projects
Local Authorities starved of funds.

Complain to the NRA/Phil Hogan (Hogan needs no slogan :rolleyes:)

http://planbetter.ie/2011/02/09/motorway-plans-need-to-be-cancelled-to-save-money-for-road-maintenance-%e2%80%93-planbetter/

The recent €36m cut in local road maintenance is due to excessive motorway construction
While millions is being cut from local road maintenance budgets, millions are being wasted designing unviable motorways. Existing roads will become compromised by potholes unless the planning process to build further motorways is formally cancelled.

The €36m cut in funding to maintain local and regional roads is the other side of the coin of excessive motorway construction over the last ten years, according to PlanBetter, a joint initiative of environmental organisations An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Friends of the Irish Environment and Feasta.

Ireland now has 2.5 times more motorway per person than Britain; yet plans by the National Roads Authority to build another 800km of motorway have still not been officially shelved.

While the cut of €36m will leave potholes on our local roads, the Government must still pay out some €105m this year to service borrowings for long sections of motorway which have proven unnecessary. Traffic is 20 to 30 per cent below the level projected by the National Roads Authority on some new motorways, including the M3 via Tara.

On top of loan repayments, taxpayers are also paying penalty fees to make up for less-than-expected revenue at the M3 toll booths. As the most recent motorways have turned into subsidised toll roads, a new approach is long overdue.

Falling traffic and figures withheld

Over the next three years more than €275m will have to be found to make further motorway repayments – even as traffic on them falls, and this burden will result in further cuts in budgets to fill potholes and re-surface local roads.

Just as the Minister for Transport is refusing to reveal how much money each council will have for local and regional road maintenance in 2011, his department declines to say whether or not motorway repayments have been included in the Four Year Plan presented by the Government in late 2010.

Yet the Government continues to allocate millions for new motorways including proposals for a new 28km four-lane road in Wexford between Oilgate to Rosslare, much of it to replace a recent bypass, and even though traffic on the route is 75 per cent short of the volume required to justify building what’s proposed.

The outgoing Government used the Four Year Plan to falsely claim that every Transport 21 project was still viable. The incoming Government needs to be honest, and openly acknowledge that long sections of motorway are as unnecessary as they are unaffordable.

Traffic has fallen more than 7 per cent from its peak, and as oil prices continue to rise, the number of journeys will decline further. New toll motorways will become ghost roads if projected increases in diesel and petrol and diesel materialise.

Dedicated bypasses with selected enhancements along existing routes are what’s required. Proper transport planning must begin after the new government takes office.

Disgracefully, the recent announcement for local and regional roads maintained a 14 per cent cut in the Low Cost Safety Improvement Programme. This programme – which is used to remove accident blackspots on dangerous roads all around the country – stands at a paltry €6m a year.

Removing accident blackspots saves far more lives than motorway building per euro invested – something the Department of Transport and the NRA are perfectly well aware of, but seem engaged in a strange form of delusion while the wrongful allocation of taxpayer funds persists.

Increasingly it is acknowledged that we are in the sunset era of private motoring with fossil fuel while the alternatives, such as electric cars, are neither sufficiently advanced nor affordable to maintain private car use at the rate to which we became accustomed over the Celtic Tiger years.

Continuing to build and plan motorways, while at the same time cutting funding to tackle high-accident locations and maintain existing roads roads, compromises road safety and long-standing investments, according to PlanBetter.

As Fred Barry, CEO of the National Road Authority, recently told the Joint Oireachtas Committe on Transport, many of Ireland’s existing roads do “not come close to meeting current design and construction standards” while others “were never properly designed in the first place”.

The main challenge for the new government will be to maintain existing transport links and public transport services, and PlanBetter would welcome a shift in focus under an incoming government where our existing transport links are maintained and enhanced.

In a policy briefing for the incoming government to be published later this month PlanBetter will propose innovative measures, including:

1. A partial rebate on fuel duty for all public transport operators, including private bus operators which hold route licences, with the level of rebate linked to the efficiency of the vehicle and the number of passengers carried.

This will ensure a far greater provision of public transport, enabling a wider shift from single-person car commuting, helping families now struggling with higher fuel bills.

2. A concrete commitment to progressively extend the School Travel Programme to all schools across the State over time.

This programme, which currently involves 650 schools, is achieving a far more radical change than initial estimates suggested. Pilot studies indicated that around 15 per cent of pupils would switch to walking, cycling and public transport from car, but results from 2010 are almost double that, with 27 per cent changing to healthier and more environmentally-friendly modes. No other measure is achieving comparable results for the investment involved (€2m a year).

3. Mobility management plans for workplaces, starting with all organisations with more than 500 staff.

Through mobility management plans, commuters will be helped explore alternatives to single-person car commuting. A range of measures would be included, including cycle training for those who would like to become more comfortable in traffic, advice on combining public transport with the active modes of walking and cycling, as well as incentives to dedicate space in large-scale surface car-parks to alternative uses over time.

ENDS

PlanBetter is a joint initiative of environmental organisations An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Friends of the Irish Environment and Feasta.

Attribution – spokesperson for PlanBetter

Contact:

Miles Deas – 086 200 7998 – milesdeas@gmail.com

James Nix – 086 8394129

Additional information

- There is no point in ever more motorway that’s used less and less, especially when investment in dedicated road safety measures, such as tackling accident blackspots, save the most lives per euro spent, according to international data.

Examples where the Government continues to allocate millions for the National Roads Authority to plan new motorways include proposals for a new 28km four-lane road in Wexford between Oilgate to Rosslare, much of it to replace a recent bypass – and even though traffic on the route is 75 per cent short of the volume required to justify building a four-lane road.

Other examples where the Government is still allocating millions for new motorways at the expense of re-mediating existing routes include Clontibret to Aughnacloy (N2), Blarney to Patrickswell (N20) and Adare to Abbeyfeale (N21).

Removing dangerous bends and realigning hazardous junctions save far more lives per euro invested than building four-lane roads. (The research here is clear, as shown by international texts such as “The Handbook of Road Safety Measures” by Elvik et al, and confirmed by road safety experts, e.g. Fred Wegman; see further below.)

- Half of Ireland’s road network obtains the lowest possible safety rating under European standards.

- PlanBetter urges the Government to focus on eliminating high-risk locations along our roads: safety must come before building more and more motorway.

- Half of Ireland’s road network obtains the lowest possible safety rating under European standards. That’s according to the European Road Assessment Programme, or EuroRAP, the EU agency responsible for monitoring road safety. (see http://www.eurorap.org/library/pdfs/20080519_IRLAND_RESULTS.pdf )

Ireland’s national secondary network fares particularly poorly. Examples of roads with the lowest safety rating include Mallow to Killarney, Birr to Thurles, and Dundalk to Castleblayney. Parts of the N87 in Cavan; the N14 in Donegal; the N69 between Limerick and Kerry; the N81 from Carlow to Dublin via Wicklow and Kildare; the N30 in Wexford; the N29 in Kilkenny and the N58 in Mayo are also poor in safety terms.

While close to 50 per cent of Ireland’s road network has the lowest safety rating in European terms, only 5 per cent of Northern Ireland’s network achieves the lowest grade, while just 2 per cent of roads in Britain have the lowest rating.

Motorway construction must no longer be put ahead of cutting road mortality. There is ample work for Ireland’s road engineers and contractors in eliminating high-risk locations along our existing network.

Already more than €1.7m has been misspent planning 28km of new four-lane road between Oilgate and Rosslare for example – and such misspending continues. In the case of Oilgate – Rosslare, motorway is not warranted before 2040, and depending on future price of oil, motorway may never be justified. More than 20 accident blackspots across the country could have been eliminated with this money. This waste of taxpayers’ money has to stop.

thebman

Well its easy to say motorways are unneeded however I know people that drive them every day as part of their job, going all over the country and it allows them do work in the office during the day too during to savings on driving times.

I think we probably have the major areas covered alright though. Maybe we could cancel the rest and invest in another public transport project.

charlemont

Construction of one off housing on rural roads has contributed to loads of potholes due to the diggers etc, Iv noticed it a lot recently on the R662.
When I was younger, well before the "boom", every year the local boreens would be tarred and chipped.

MadsL

Well its easy to say motorways are unneeded

Actually anyone with the temerity to suggest that 'err, maybe we don't need all these motorways' generally gets blasted out of it.

We have more kms per capita of motorways in this country than the UK. You wouldn't think it listening to some people.

thebman

MadsL wrote: »

Actually anyone with the temerity to suggest that 'err, maybe we don't need all these motorways' generally gets blasted out of it.

We have more kms per capita of motorways in this country than the UK. You wouldn't think it listening to some people.

Motorways are for the travel of goods. We don't have the rail infrastructure to transport goods that Britain has to the best of my knowledge so we are compensating with roads.

PARKHEAD67

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Have the councils gone on strike or something?

I actually genuinely would like to know what is going on.

A few years ago, they could fix all the roads.
Now, absolutely nothing is being fixed, but we pay more road tax and fuel duty than ever before!?

NAMA. Pay road tax-nama . pay water rates-nama etc. Nothing will improve. Ive to pay 600 to tax my car. I wouldnt mind in the slightest if it went on roads.But it wont. Nama.This country is hellbound for the taxpayer.

MadsL

We don't have the rail infrastructure to transport goods

Really? http://www.irishrail.ie/our_services/freight.asp

thebman

MadsL wrote: »

Really? http://www.irishrail.ie/our_services/freight.asp

Right now show it exists in the context I actually said it :rolleyes:

If we don't have the same rail transport network as Britain it should come as no surprise that we build a larger motorway network for the transport of goods.

Showing it exists does not mean it is a satisfactory service or show its availability. Irish rail saying nationwide is a bit useless given we know it isn't nationwide, only where the train lines go and carry freight.

Post on commuting and transport and ask how good Irish Rails freight transport service is and is it available nationwide and see what answer you get.

MadsL

I'm afraid that you have bought into the same self-fulfilling prophecy that has beset successive government and CIE policy.

Lets consider some statistics;

In 1970, a total of 545 tonne-kms was conveyed by rail rising to 568 tonne-kms by 1975; and in 1980 volumes had reached a high of 637 tonne-kms. Since that time, there has been a three fold increase in the inland conveyance of goods, from 5,648 tonne-kms in 1980 to 17,891 in 2006, but all of this growth has been facilitated by road freight. Between 1980 and 2006, road freight grew by 253 per cent but rail-based carrying declined by 68 percent in the same period as shown in the table below.

Source: Submission by the Port of Cork on the 2020 Vision Sustainable Travel and Transport Public Consultation Document

Modal percentage drops are shocking, since a peak of 12% in 1985, frieght carriage has dropped to just 2% of all tonnage carried.

It is clear that far from exploiting any commercial possibility of improving frieght services, CIE have mismanaged this service into the ground. They had a clear derrogation which absolved them from competition until 2009 but have shown little interest in exploiting this advantage. In fact, here's an example of how much interest IE show in freight traffic..effectively abandoning spur lines capable of taking bulk goods.

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/sreply/24102/Irish-railfreight-or-lack-of-it-

As far as posting on C&T, there is no need for another thread - this has been well covered..you might want to read, my feeling is that most of the sentiment endorses my view that National/CIE Policy had been obstructive to rail freight.

Yesterday even; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72704484&postcount=1734

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72592439&postcount=5

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054909757

only where the train lines go and carry freight.

You know the stupidity of that statement really don't you.

Edit: Apparantly there are moves to tax roadfreight at toll points for congestion/pollution.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056293053

MadsL

Oh and by the way, the largest private rail network in Europe is in Ireland.
I would lay money that most of it is ripped up and sold for scrap before 2020.

Whilst narrowgauge and slow, is there any reason that this could not be repurposed for non-time critical delivery or even tourist use?

http://bordnamona.wikispaces.com/BordnaMona

thebman

But isn't that the point?

CIE won't/can't run rail freight which leaves motorways as the only option.

A self-fulfilling prophecy maybe but the government haven't the guts to reform CIE for whatever reason so we need an alternative.

A state run rail company is a bad way to have freight carried anyway. If there was some competition then you could depend on it a bit more but a state run monopoly in Ireland will always be inefficient, unionised to the hilt so no real reforms/changes can happen and be expensive to use.

So that kind of just leaves Motorway as the only alternative.

MadsL

thebman wrote: »

But isn't that the point?

CIE won't/can't run rail freight which leaves motorways as the only option.

A self-fulfilling prophecy maybe but the government haven't the guts to reform CIE for whatever reason so we need an alternative.

A state run rail company is a bad way to have freight carried anyway. If there was some competition then you could depend on it a bit more but a state run monopoly in Ireland will always be inefficient, unionised to the hilt so no real reforms/changes can happen and be expensive to use.

So that kind of just leaves Motorway as the only alternative.

This reminds me of the Unga Bunga joke...

So your argument is; we have an incompetant state funded agency, so we should increase funding to another incompetant state funded agency because the first agency is incompetant. And that's our only option. No wonder we are banjaxed.

Edit: There is competition on freight btw.

thebman

MadsL wrote: »

This reminds me of the Unga Bunga joke...

So your argument is; we have an incompetant state funded agency, so we should increase funding to another incompetant state funded agency because the first agency is incompetant. And that's our only option. No wonder we are banjaxed.

Edit: There is competition on freight btw.

Well the motorway network is good and working. Companies hire private hauler firms to do the job for them so the transport isn't state run.

Only the maintenance of the network is which is the way these things should be as the state isn't too bad at ensuring things don't become too dangerous like road and rail but it is poor at actually providing the service itself as seen from our rail and buses. Private buses work fine though so there is a way around it.

Unfortunately there is no way the public would allow rail to be privatised as whenever it is brought up, people just go on about the disaster that the UK had when it first privatised it.

Brussels Sprout

MadsL wrote: »

Really? http://www.irishrail.ie/our_services/freight.asp

Great unless you want to get stuff delivered to Bantry, Letterkenny or Cavan

Dannyboy83

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Great unless you want to get stuff delivered to Bantry, Letterkenny or Cavan

Can't speak for Letterkenny or Cavan, but there are no motorways in West Cork.


@Madsl,
Any idea what is happening with the promised N25 flyover in Cork?

I take your word for it regarding the underspend on local roads being due to the overspend on Motorway, you clearly know more about it thank I do.
But they've scrapped the Cork to Limerick motorway plans AFAIK, and there is only one motorway in Cork - that's the M8 motoroway to Dublin - which is private.

So it's a case of whoever screams loudest gets the money?

I don't see the point of people in Donegal paying motor tax, fuel duty and so on, if it's all going to be spent in Leinster anyway.

Water14

Road in Gort was covered in potholes. It took over a year to fix a few potholes, I can't figure out what the contractor was doing. Many cars had the water tanks destroyed over the potholes. They still expect you to pay motor tax and then don't fix the roads. Typical.

MadsL

thebman wrote: »

Well the motorway network is good and working. Companies hire private hauler firms to do the job for them so the transport isn't state run.

Only the maintenance of the network is which is the way these things should be as the state isn't too bad at ensuring things don't become too dangerous like road and rail but it is poor at actually providing the service itself as seen from our rail and buses. Private buses work fine though so there is a way around it.

Unfortunately there is no way the public would allow rail to be privatised as whenever it is brought up, people just go on about the disaster that the UK had when it first privatised it.

You do a good job of describing the status quo. Have you given any thought to what happens when oil production is past peak oil or oil prices spike past $140 a barrel again?

@Dannyboy
Thread on it here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055853085&page=12

MadsL

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0613/1224298811743.html

Dwindling road traffic costs State €500,000 a month
THE STATE is paying almost €500,000 a month to the private operators of the M3 motorway and the N18 Limerick Tunnel because traffic volumes have fallen short of guarantees given by the State, the National Roads Authority (NRA) has confirmed.

The payments, which amount to an annualised €5.9 million, are to be paid because traffic volumes on both routes have fallen below agreed thresholds.

At €5.9 million they are more than four times the authority’s revenue share from all its other public-private partnership toll motorways.

Just two such roads constructed over the past decade at a cost of €8 billion are returning a payment to the State – the M1 and the M4.

However, the combined revenue here was just €1.47 million in 2010, the latest year for which figures are available.

According the NRA, traffic volumes have also failed to trigger a profit for the State on tolls between Dublin and the cities of Waterford, Cork, Limerick and on one of the two tolls on the Dublin to Galway route.

Dublin’s M50 is no longer a public-private partnership and is wholly owned by the State. While traffic volumes on the M50 are rising significantly, the NRA is using this revenue to pay off €600 million to the WestLink bridge’s former owners, National Toll Roads, and for the €1 billion M50 widening scheme.

Commenting on the figures at the weekend, the NRA said the payments to the operators of the Limerick Tunnel and the M3 “are in line with budgeted expectations”.

It said while traffic volumes had triggered a shared loss, the contracts were such that the main loss “is borne by the PPP companies”.

A spokesman said the only guaranteed traffic volumes were on the M3 and M1, and losses on all other routes would be borne by the companies involved.

Detailed figures reveal that from September to December 2010, the most recent available, the subvention to the operators of the Limerick Tunnel cost €1.24 million.

The subvention on the M3 for October to December that year cost €547,000. Utilising the revenue from the M1 and M4 for the entire year still left a shortfall of €317,000.

The NRA spokesman said there were other benefits from the roads. “You wouldn’t have an export-led economic recovery if you didn’t have a modern road network, it’s that simple. The €8 billion investment in the major inter-urban network is giving the taxpayer a €24 billion return on that investment. We will bounce back as a country, the traffic levels will improve, and the payments will cease.”

However, according to environmental and planning group PlanBetter, a joint initiative of four groups – An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Friends of the Irish Environment and Feasta – the cost of subsiding private operators could rise to €100 million if traffic levels remained static or continued to fall in coming years.

Figures compiled by the group show traffic on the M3, which runs from Clonee to north of Kells, Co Meath, was almost 5,000 vehicles per day below the level at which subsidies must be paid to the Eurolink consortium that built it.

Traffic would have to reach 26,250 vehicles per day to avoid payments; daily traffic is “in or around 21,500” vehicles.

In the case of Limerick, the threshold for the new tunnel is 17,000 vehicles per day, but the actual level of traffic is about 13,500 vehicles daily, according to the group.

The 900m tunnel under the Shannon, west of Limerick city, is part of a 10km dual-carriageway and associated roads built by DirectRoute.

Time for a re-think maybe?